Discussing the Deep Folk of the Desert

[Eyeball88]

Some time in the First Era, in the years around 420, a schism formed between the clans of the Dwemer race. They had lived alongside and made war with the Chimer for many generations, and many felt that it was time to try to make peace between the two races. But those of the Rourken clan disagreed. They refused to take part in the peace deal, and finally split from the rest of the Dwemer.

As the legend tells it, the cheiftain of the Rourken clan drew out his mighty warhammer, Volendrung, and promised to lead his clansmer wherever it should land. He threw it with all of his might, and as a shining star in the sky, it directed the Rourken Dwemer to what is now known as Hammerfell. (This mythic image has been depicted on the walls of several ruins in Hammerfell: a mass exodus of golden-clad Dwemer, trudging through the Cyrodiilic forests, Volendrung a falling star in the nightsky before them, urging them on.) They named the site "Volenfell" or "City of the Hammer" (scholars put the site of impact somewhere near Gilane, in the Alik'r desert) and made their own society, severing all ties from the Dwemer of Vvardenfell.

These Dwemer inhabited Hammerfell for nearly 300 years before the "Disappearance of the Dwarves" wiped them out as completely as it did the Dwemer of Morrowind. During this ~280 year period, there are a few notable events which would have shaped the Rourken Clan and their society.

- At some point, possibly during their trek across Cyrodiil, the Dwemer clashed with Archmagus Shalidor. The artifact Spell Breaker is famous because of this battle, as it reflected his spells and silenced his magic.

- The native races of Hammerfell at this time are the beast races of Orcs and Goblins. We can assume the Dwemer fought these orcs regularly, but never managed to conquer them as completely as the Redguard.

- ~50 years after the Rourken clan claim Volenfell, parts of Hammerfell are conquered by Clan Direnni, later known as the Altmer. The Direnni pushed towards the Colovian Heartland from High Rock, meaning they would have crossed paths with the Dwemer at some point.

So, we've covered the basic history of the Dwemer, now for the point of this thread: What will these Dwemer look like, and what do we want from them? The look of the Dwemer has changed from Redguard to Morrowind to Oblivion. The Dwemer armor and architecture found in Oblivion is much, much more ornate than that found in Morrowind, and I'm sure anyone who has seen the Orrery will agree. However, this style will be fairly difficult to reproduce. So, what style should we choose for our Dwemer?

One thought is that they would be more war-like than the Vvardenfell Dwemer. Refusing to accept peace with a warring nation, they left for one of the harsher environments on Tamriel, where they were forced to fight Orc, Goblin and Altmer.

Although this won't really come into play until after Goldmoor is finished, I think it is worth discussing. The current plan is to have a small number of Dwemer dungeons that can be entered, and then a larger number of ruins jutting forth from the sand but not actually containing explorable interiors. I would like to see each of the 5 or 6 interiors serve a different, useful function for Dwemer existence in the desert. For example, Fang Lair has been established as a large scale Dwemer mine. So the dungeon base nearest to Fang Lair could contain a large foundry, where ore was smelted and constructed into a variety of tools and creations. Another base, closer to the ocean, might contain a large pumping facility, where water is pumped in from the ocean, purified and then sent deeper into the desert through a large series of pipes.

Another idea would be for large underground highways. I would posit that the harsh desert conditions would wreak havok on both the heavily-bearded Dwemer and, moreso, on their machinations. Machinery exposed to too much sand will wear down far too quickly, as sand builds up amongst the joints and gears. A system of underground "highways" (containing tracks for mine carts, walkways, etc) would make sense for the transportation of goods and machinery, as well as an escape from the heat. These highways would all be collapsed of course. El_Scum brought up an interesting idea that small waterfalls could be re-textured to look like falling sand, so that collapsed highways could have trickles of sand piling up, etc. This is all just baseless speculation and brainstorming.

There are a number of interesting Dwemer items in Redguard, like Steam Pumps, the Dirigible, a large Centurion, and the Orrery. This can also give us clues as to what the Dwemer style should be like, but the engine is too ancient for us to directly copy from.

[Sload]

Log of Sanakh do Giyeing hel Mansei no Shira on her journey into the Dragontail Mountains:

• Meingoi:
  
  We travelled further up what appeared to be an ancient road, used by some unknown civilization. Suddenly, we found ourselves faced with an amazing gates, like larger than that of the Black Palace in Al-Zheika and more spectacular than the White Palace. Unlike the gate of the White Palace, though, it was not so spectacular because of its ornate decorations, indeed, its exterior was rather bland. However, the parts in which its walls had been lost to time seemed filled with metal snakes and wheels, twisting around eachother to form some complex design. Some of the wheels spun slowly, scratching against eachother, and one of the snakelike parts had steam errupting from its belly. Because this was clearly meant to be internal and invisible, it must have had some practicle function.
  
  Beyond the gate we occassionally saw some odd shapes implanted in the land that appeared to be of the same make, but nothing nearly as exceptional.
  
  Meimai:
  
  The gate we found yesterday was nothing at all to what we have seen today. Whatever creature once inhabitted this land, it was a fiercely powerful one indeed.
  
  We came upon a great chasm, rather round, and very deep. In the middle of it was a city in the shape of an enormous tower with an enormous bridge reaching from its gate to our road. We stood in awe for several minutes at this enormous feat of a city.
  
  I do not know enough words to describe the city fairly. The upper levels were mostly silent, except when one of us went to sit on one of the strange orbs randomly strewn throughout it. We were shocked and terified when this orb unfolded itself into a metal man and began to attack us. We managed to defeat it, but it was not an easy fight. Otherwise, though, these halls were silent and still, but they seem to have been the city of the lost people. In one of the more extraordinairy halls there was a great wall with writing on it in three languages. The first was illegible, presumably that of the ancient people, the other two were, though, the tongues of the meru and the nedu, and I could piece together from them that this city was called Kragen.
  
  The lower levels were louder and darker. We found a small metal stick in a barrel. When shaken hard or banged against a wall, this stick began to emit a white flame from one end, like a metal torch. In these levels, many things were moving, as if to their own dance, probably performing whatever function they would have done before this city was abandoned. It was spectacular, like the halls themselves were alive. Our himya were not able to uncover anything more, but we believe that further inquiry could lead to great discoveries.
  
  Tonight, we are sleeping one of the great hall above. Some of the crew is frightened, but they have prayed to every god they could think of, so I think we're fine.

[El Scumbago]

According to the above, I can make the following conclusions:

1) The Rourken constructions are massive.

2) The 'snake around the wheels' can be interpreted as a twisted metallic pipe and not as an ornamental artifact stuck on the gate. Dwemer had little love for art after all, and if we agree on this interpretation we are automatically rid of any implications about frescos and carvings.

3) They place their machinery in the lower and underground levels, more than they did in Morrowind.

4) Centurions are present here as well, probably most of Morrowind's known robots do.

5) The 'city in the chasm' means we can go for some really daring architecture. In fact, the description of that particular site brings me images from Kebra's work on Blacklight(?).

6) We could make 'Dwemer flares' as an alternative to torches.

7) Sload will be losing this semester.

[Zalzidrax]

The difference between the MW and Oblivion armor is that the MW armor was modeled as a suit of armor composed of scavenged automaton plating, whereas the Oblivion type seemed to be more the "goldmail" armor that the Dwemer themselves would wear into combat.

I think as far as aesthetics go, the Dwemer were practical enough not to embellish ordinary fortifactions and equipment, but something that would be asign of status, like armor or an airship, or an orrery perhaps, would be embellished to at least some degree. Probably fairly simple designs as on the Oblivion Dwemer stuff, with little organic inspiration unless it were depicting continents. Though there was a scarab-like construct in Redguard. I wonder if that had any symbology or whether it just happened to be there.

[El Scumbago]

I'd say they put the scarab in the game to further enhance the Egyptian-esque feeling of the place.

[Nomadic1]

Not knowing much of the Dwemer, I thought I would still say something.

Some time in the First Era, in the years around 420, a schism formed between the clans of the Dwemer race. They had lived alongside and made war with the Chimer for many generations, and many felt that it was time to try to make peace between the two races. But those of the Rourken clan disagreed. They refused to take part in the peace deal, and finally split from the rest of the Dwemer.

You forget the second clan, the Kragen of the north. I know nothing of them. The piece Sload quoted clearly refers to the Kragen, not the Rourken, so we are not bound to what it says when working with the southern Dwemer. That said, both clans worked and lived in a harsh environment largely the same, so there must have been good reason for all machinery to be very low. The most obvious reason for it is the geothermal energy needed to power their machines would be far lower and underground in Hammerfell then in Morrowind, and from a practical POV it would have been a great waste of time and effort to allow for the machinery to work closer near the surface.

...

These Dwemer inhabited Hammerfell for nearly 300 years before the "Disappearance of the Dwarves" wiped them out as completely as it did the Dwemer of Morrowind. During this ~280 year period, there are a few notable events which would have shaped the Rourken Clan and their society.

...

So, we've covered the basic history of the Dwemer, now for the point of this thread: What will these Dwemer look like, and what do we want from them? The look of the Dwemer has changed from Redguard to Morrowind to Oblivion. The Dwemer armor and architecture found in Oblivion is much, much more ornate than that found in Morrowind, and I'm sure anyone who has seen the Orrery will agree. However, this style will be fairly difficult to reproduce. So, what style should we choose for our Dwemer?

We are dealing with two clans, not one. Each clan has its own architecture and styles; lore says that. And if Morrowind itself is anything to go by, we have at least two clans there (Red Mountain one and Mournhold one). For the Rourken, we should try and stay as close to Stros M'Kai as possible. For the Kragen we have more leeway, since the only Kragen cities we know of are Fang Lair (their capital IIRC) and the one Sload quoted, so we can either develop a separate style for them or not do so (if for a lack of modders, modellers, interest, or energy).

One thought is that they would be more war-like than the Vvardenfell Dwemer. Refusing to accept peace with a warring nation, they left for one of the harsher environments on Tamriel, where they were forced to fight Orc, Goblin and Altmer.

Seems right.

Although this won't really come into play until after Goldmoor is finished, I think it is worth discussing. The current plan is to have a small number of Dwemer dungeons that can be entered, and then a larger number of ruins jutting forth from the sand but not actually containing explorable interiors. I would like to see each of the 5 or 6 interiors serve a different, useful function for Dwemer existence in the desert. For example, Fang Lair has been established as a large scale Dwemer mine. So the dungeon base nearest to Fang Lair could contain a large foundry, where ore was smelted and constructed into a variety of tools and creations. Another base, closer to the ocean, might contain a large pumping facility, where water is pumped in from the ocean, purified and then sent deeper into the desert through a large series of pipes.

IMO to do this right one has to look at the two clans as separate entities, and then by doing so you might reach the same conclusion I have that 5-6 Dwemer cities is far too few. But enough said on that:

Rourken: We have Volenfel, Stros M'Kai, and by the 5-6 rule one more city to work with if the Kragen are to get a fair go. It would be a coastal city, or all the concept art and talk and debate and deciding about Dwemer coastal cities would be a complete and utter waste. Volenfel is their capital: it would be where a significant number of the Rourken lived, and would be well fortified. It is presently buried near Gilane, so we have absolutely no exterior work to go with here. Stros M'Kai was in Redguard, so say no more. The Dwemer coastal city thus finds itself a little redundant. Logically IMO, it would be on Hews Bane, in a place where they had a command of the ocean and could control some access between Stros M'Kai and Volenfel, indeed it would find itself the only link. It could not send water inland, thus the idea of a pumping station dies.

Kragen: We have Fang Lair, the city Sload quoted, and another one if we go with 6 instead of 5. Fang Lair has changed from their capital to a mine, although IMO it could easily be better if it served as both. The city Sload describes seems little more than a standard city. They have their machines and so forth deep underground to get the energy from lava, and a somewhat clear idea of a settlement in the upper halls. I'm weary of the idea of a Kragen city in the desert - it seems to me they built in the most inaccessible mountainous places they could and were not as powerful or important as the Rourken, so I just can't see a Kragen city in the open. To give it a purpose, it could be a defensive settlement to guard their troubled borders. Southeast of Fang Lair or near enough to Dragonstar would serve a purpose in defending from Nords (which might well have been their greatest threat).

Another idea would be for large underground highways. I would posit that the harsh desert conditions would wreak havok on both the heavily-bearded Dwemer and, moreso, on their machinations. Machinery exposed to too much sand will wear down far too quickly, as sand builds up amongst the joints and gears. A system of underground "highways" (containing tracks for mine carts, walkways, etc) would make sense for the transportation of goods and machinery, as well as an escape from the heat. These highways would all be collapsed of course. El_Scum brought up an interesting idea that small waterfalls could be re-textured to look like falling sand, so that collapsed highways could have trickles of sand piling up, etc. This is all just baseless speculation and brainstorming.

I can't see the highway idea working. But if you've seen the Scorpion King, the sand trap Scummy described could well be used in the manner in the cave there. Or in a booby trapped temple.

[Eyeball88]

You forget the second clan, the Kragen of the north. I know nothing of them. The piece Sload quoted clearly refers to the Kragen, not the Rourken, so we are not bound to what it says when working with the southern Dwemer. That said, both clans worked and lived in a harsh environment largely the same, so there must have been good reason for all machinery to be very low. The most obvious reason for it is the geothermal energy needed to power their machines would be far lower and underground in Hammerfell then in Morrowind, and from a practical POV it would have been a great waste of time and effort to allow for the machinery to work closer near the surface.

I completely glazed over the Kragen, partially because the only reference from TIL was the single line about Fang Lair. Arena lore being what it is, I wasn't ready to draw any split in clans. The note on Fang Lair on TIL ends with "Also, is this Dwarves of Kragen actually the Dwemeri Clan of Rourken? Possibly." This is entirely speculation on their behalf, but all of the lore post-Arena that I have read points solely to the Rourken.

The TIL history of Tamriel documents the split of Rourken from MW, their journey, their battle with Shalidor, their establishment of Volenfell, and then their demise. Since nowhere in lore that I have read do they actually split apart, we may want to come up with a different explanation. Maybe towards the time that the Altmer armies were passing through Hammerfell and pushing towards the Colovian Heartlands, the Dwemer posted around Fang Lair/Dragontail Mountains refused to leave the safety of their mountain strongholds to come to the aid of the Dwemer living in the open desert. This would have given them enough time to establish a single architectural style, but still give them reason for a similar split along clan lines.

We are dealing with two clans, not one. Each clan has its own architecture and styles; lore says that. And if Morrowind itself is anything to go by, we have at least two clans there (Red Mountain one and Mournhold one). For the Rourken, we should try and stay as close to Stros M'Kai as possible. For the Kragen we have more leeway, since the only Kragen cities we know of are Fang Lair (their capital IIRC) and the one Sload quoted, so we can either develop a separate style for them or not do so (if for a lack of modders, modellers, interest, or energy).

I would lean towards a single style, if not because of how unknown the Kragen are in lore, then simply because two different complex architectural sets for a half dozen dungeons is too much work for the return.

I guess we need to decide how much independence the Kragen had from the Rourken.

[Harke the Apostle]

I'm hardly the Loremeister, but I am pretty sure there is no Lore that says the Kragen were actually a clan.
Let's stick with the Rourken.

Architecture:

It should be more colourful than Morrowind. While it should be very functional, perhaps some designs on it could be a little bit more elaborate, to fit in with the armour from Oblivion.
Also, there need to be frescos or paintings inside, preferably in the style of those from Morrowind.

Ghosts:

Perhaps the Dwemer ghosts could be split up in two groups.
One group that is simply made by having translucent NPCs in full Dwemer armour attack you.(I don´t know how you would have to do that, but it might work well and save time). The other civilians who continue working and going about their business without noticeing you. Perhaps for the same strange metaphysical reason the more peace/loving Morrowind Dwemer ghosts attack you, the more warlike Rourken spirits tend to leave adventurers alone.

Overall:

I´d like to have some Dwemer females, please, or at least some reference that they were ever there.

[Sload]

The implication of the document I sourced was that Kragen was the name of the city of "Fang Lair." It goes unsaid, but the clan is still Rourken. Technically, arena refers to Kragen as a clan, but Arena doesn't count.

Only one clan. This was actually Gez's "reinterpretation," as we would call it, and it is a Better Explanation.

[Harke the Apostle]

The implication of the document I sourced was that Kragen was the name of the city of "Fang Lair." It goes unsaid, but the clan is still Rourken. Technically, arena refers to Kragen as a clan, but Arena doesn't count.

Only one clan. This was actually Gez's "reinterpretation," as we would call it, and it is a Better Explanation.

"The Sload has spoken! Nyeaaaah!"

I do like the underground highway idea. Perhaps all ruins could be as the scattered relicts of what once was a region spanning complex?
Not so much a city, but more a far flung industrial complex that connected the mine with the foundry and the sea as was already described?
Think the Dwemer version of the Mars Base from Doom 3, although only existing a couple of distant ruins. Think of the island in Riven but with less buildings and puzzles.
Perhaps it could even be possible to have one vantage point, from where all the ruins are visible, and the shape of the former complex becomes discernable?
That would certainly be a nice reward for the player character for spending all that time crawling through the desert and fighting through the ruins.

[Eraser]

Maybe a mage's guild mini questline could have you researching the dwemer there, and it could be a misconception that Kragen was a different clan, but it was merely a city of rourken. Possibly cut off from the other Rourken cities by said orcs and goblins(or altmer) and developing a slight difference in style leading men and mer to believe it was a different clan. Bamz-Amschend was still very much the dwarven style seen on MW, but slightly grander, a similarly small difference shouldn't be too much work modifying the standard dwemer/rourkin designs.

The underground highway idea is interested, maybe some tunnels connecting nearby locations, but a grand underground transit system strikes me as kinda short stubby real/typical dwarven as opposed to dwemer.

It's these constructive lore/design discussions we've missed for such a long time here...we need more threads like this.

[Harke the Apostle]

I'm not gonna make em, but...

Architecture:

exterior:

one tower with the more or less intact control room) (think television/ airport tower) and an awesome balcony.

interior:

Very basic set, but available in a couple of different texturings. Imagine having a wall piece with a band of metal but coloured differently for every ruin, a bit like a colour coding for a modern hospital, where every floor could have a different coloured strip along the wall.

[Nomadic1]

one tower with the more or less intact control room) (think television/ airport tower) and an awesome balcony.

What would the purpose of it be though?

interior:

Very basic set, but available in a couple of different texturings. Imagine having a wall piece with a band of metal but coloured differently for every ruin, a bit like a colour coding for a modern hospital, where every floor could have a different coloured strip along the wall.

It doesn't seem to be very important. IMO any changes along the walls would do more to the function of room than its location in the ruin. For example, in a training room or armoury I would imagine a lack of pipes and delicate things. In a living area there would be pipes and delicate things necessary for living, but without any aesthetics whatsoever. In the stations and machine rooms there would be a full blown colvoluted mass of pipes and machines on the walls.

The implication of the document I sourced was that Kragen was the name of the city of "Fang Lair." It goes unsaid, but the clan is still Rourken. Technically, arena refers to Kragen as a clan, but Arena doesn't count.

Only one clan. This was actually Gez's "reinterpretation," as we would call it, and it is a Better Explanation.

Arena counts enough to BS, but I'll agree with your sentiment.

The TIL history of Tamriel documents the split of Rourken from MW, their journey, their battle with Shalidor, their establishment of Volenfell, and then their demise. Since nowhere in lore that I have read do they actually split apart, we may want to come up with a different explanation. Maybe towards the time that the Altmer armies were passing through Hammerfell and pushing towards the Colovian Heartlands, the Dwemer posted around Fang Lair/Dragontail Mountains refused to leave the safety of their mountain strongholds to come to the aid of the Dwemer living in the open desert. This would have given them enough time to establish a single architectural style, but still give them reason for a similar split along clan lines.

Tis a good idea IMO. To me it seems that in the north the Dwemer would have faced constant invasion, and retreat to mountain strongholds would be what they would have done. They would have eventually been isolated from Volenfel and the Dwemer in the south by the desert and passing armies and forced to fend for themselves. There probably weren't as many Dwemer in the north to begin with and they might have received several attacks by the Nords since their settlement of the Dragonteeth.

Maybe a mage's guild mini questline could have you researching the dwemer there, and it could be a misconception that Kragen was a different clan, but it was merely a city of rourken. Possibly cut off from the other Rourken cities by said orcs and goblins(or altmer) and developing a slight difference in style leading men and mer to believe it was a different clan. Bamz-Amschend was still very much the dwarven style seen on MW, but slightly grander, a similarly small difference shouldn't be too much work modifying the standard dwemer/rourkin designs.

It would be a nice questline.

I do like the underground highway idea. Perhaps all ruins could be as the scattered relicts of what once was a region spanning complex?
Not so much a city, but more a far flung industrial complex that connected the mine with the foundry and the sea as was already described?
Think the Dwemer version of the Mars Base from Doom 3, although only existing a couple of distant ruins. Think of the island in Riven but with less buildings and puzzles.
Perhaps it could even be possible to have one vantage point, from where all the ruins are visible, and the shape of the former complex becomes discernable?
That would certainly be a nice reward for the player character for spending all that time crawling through the desert and fighting through the ruins.

A nice idea, but we don't have the space in Hammerfell to do it nicely. The deserts, unfortunately, are too small even though we have taken some liberty on their extent.

It's these constructive lore/design discussions we've missed for such a long time here...we need more threads like this.

I agree, and not just because I find it fun

[Gez]

I am Eraser now?

[Harke the Apostle]

one tower with the more or less intact control room) (think television/ airport tower) and an awesome balcony.

What would the purpose of it be though?

If the whole system had one purpose, like producing metal for construction, It would make sense that there would also be a control room, from where the whole complex is visible.

[Nomadic1]

If the whole system had one purpose, like producing metal for construction, It would make sense that there would also be a control room, from where the whole complex is visible.

It would be a little difficult to do so when the city and the facilities would be underground though.

I am Eraser now?

What are you talking about? Sorry Eraser.

[Harke the Apostle]

If the whole system had one purpose, like producing metal for construction, It would make sense that there would also be a control room, from where the whole complex is visible.

It would be a little difficult to do so when the city and the facilities would be underground though.

It would depend on how it all was designed.
Perhaps one piece of the ruins could consist of ruined docking tower(s) (or however Redguard did it) for dirigibles?

[El Scumbago]

Plus a dwemer airship (destructed, of course), like the one that was in Louis Beauchamp's quest in Bloodmoon.

[Eraser]

huh? Gez what are you talking about? Nomadic, whats to apologise for?

3 confused people trying to figure out what they're confused about isn't going to make any sense.

[El Scumbago]

Eraser, you were to pretend you're Gez. Joke spoiled.

[Gez]

huh? Gez what are you talking about? Nomadic, whats to apologise for?

3 confused people trying to figure out what they're confused about isn't going to make any sense.

Nomadic's post above my first in that thread. You're quoted twice, and in both case, before Nom' edited it, the quotes were actually attributed to me!

[Tyrion]

one tower with the more or less intact control room) (think television/ airport tower) and an awesome balcony.

The dwemer didnt have tvs.

Did they?

[Harke the Apostle]

one tower with the more or less intact control room) (think television/ airport tower) and an awesome balcony.

The dwemer didnt have tvs.

Did they?

TVs were such an intricate part of Dwemer life that they where whisked away with the Dwemer, when that people disappeared.

[Gnomey]

In other words, I think Harke meant TV towers as an example only. But I'd imagine that they'd have some sort of telescope at the top of the tower rather than just normal viewing, because 1. Somehow I can't imagine the Dwemer peering into the distance when they could do the same with machinery, with a greater viewing distance. 2. Gives the illusion of Hammerfell being at least a bit bigger that it really is.

Even better, in my opinion, would be having checkpoints between major ruins, each with a tower on a hill/mountain beside them, to make inter ruin communication even easier. So what I suggest is a rather large and thin tower, maybe with a sort of balcony to serve as a airship platform. Checkpoints would also be good as they are, as far as Dwemer ruins go, small and unimportant, so that they might be suitable for dungeons.

[CleverClothe]

I don't think Hammerfell is big enough in scale to handle this.

[Gnomey]

Actually you're probably right, I have no idea how much can fit into it. Ok then, I'll put it this way: Enough that you could look from one checkpoint to a major ruin/ other checkpoint without having mountains block your view. Then they would serve their function, hopefully without being too many.