Aeson's Showcase

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:30 pm

Okay, so, here er go.

This is a Telvanni manor_02. I actually started it as a home for a new character, ro use as a base of operations exploring Map1. I might still, but this is just the interior, as thar's what im best at.

I've read lots of forum posts and such, to get this as close as I could to TR's requiremenrs for a finished claim. I'm fairly happy with it.

just one cell, "aeson's showcase house" Have a look, tell me what you think, and thanks or your time.

Morgoth Bauglir · Post by **Morgoth Bauglir** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:12 pm

I'll take a look at it today.

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:15 am

Thanks, man... I astually realised, right alter I uploaded the file, that I FORGOT THE FLIPPIN' NORTHMARKER! GAHHHH!!!!

I'm okay now, sorry 'bout that.

Anybodt else feel like having a look?

Nicholas van Rjin · Post by **Nicholas van Rjin** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:35 pm

TESAME: Clean

NORTH MARKER: Missing (modder already realized that, though)

LOADING ERRORS: This esp had a dependency on TR_Map1.esm, causing the CS to experience CTD upon attempting to load it. After removing the map1 dependency, I received the following error upon loading it in the CS:
Missing object "TR_FW_k_chest_forks" for reference during cell "Aeson's Showcase House" load. The error was due to the chest being a map1 container, and having the map1 dependency removed.

REVIEW: While many of the interiors for TR are this size or smaller, I prefer to see something a bit larger than one shell piece, to get a better idea of a modder's ability. That is a purely personal preference issue, though.

Major:
Light settings were very near default.
No path grids.

Minor:

Many items of the same type had identical z-rotation. If multiple items of the same type are set in different parts of a cell, no one is likely to notice identical rotation. When they are set near each other or grouped together, they should have random rotations to look natural.

With the stacked plates, the higher large plate floated a little too much, as did the higher small plate. You're right in realizing they need to float some, but half that amount would have been okay.

tr_misc_stn_bowl_01 rests on a point. All of the large bowls like this rest on a point and need to be bled into the surface they're sitting on until they appear to have a round base.

TR_furn_de_bkend floats.

The upper end of the silver staff isn't resting against anything. It should rest against the spearholder.

Telvanni bug musk bleeds heavily into the top of the drawers, as does the potion beside it.

Both pillows float a tiny bit. Pillows should actually bleed a little into the bed to have a natural appearance.

The folded cloths bleed heavily into each other, and slightly into the table.

The iron ladle sits upright. The handle should lean against the rim of the cauldron.

All three light_de_lamp_01_77 float noticeably. Lights don't fall properly when you hit "F" so you need to manually adjust these and then check the bases to make sure they're not floating or bleeding.

The stacked loaves of bread in the basket don't rest naturally.

de_r_drawers_01_mcloth bleeds into rug.

Base of wallscreen bleeds into back base of drawers.

dust_adept_helm rests on a point. It needs to lay on its side or have something supporting it.

For a PC home, I can see having empty chests/barrels/crates, but for a TR home, they should have belongings and supplies.

COMMENTS: If an esp has a dependency on TR_Map1.esm, the CS will crash when loading it. That's why you were unable to tweak the esp after exiting the CS the first time. Without the map1 dependency, you could have loaded it as often as necessary, and kept making corrections until you had everything right. Don't worry - I learned that one the hard way, too.

Most of the errors I saw are things that you'll pick up with experience. Random z rotations, knowing how much certain things should bleed, how much other things should float, and how to rotate objects to get them to rest naturally. The other minor things were simple things that I'm sure you could have corrected if you had been able to re-edit the esp (excessive bleeders/floaters).

HINTS: Some minor errors might not be noticed in-game, but the three biggies that *will* be noticed are North Marker, lighting levels and path grids.

1) You already caught the missing North Marker, so I know you *do* pay attention to this (that's a "good thing").

2) For lighting levels, look under the Statics tab and scroll down to in_t_manor_02. RIGHT-click on that static and then LEFT-click "Info." That will show you the cells already in-game that use that static. Double-click on any of those cell names and the CS will load that cell. Now click on "World" and then "Interior Cell" and you will see the lighting settings for that cell. Checking a couple of those will give you a good idea of the range you want to have your settings at.

3) Path grids aren't necessary for the player, but are critical for NPCs. Without path grids, NPCs have a tendency to walk into corners or other tight areas, then start doing an odd dance. They also might walk off high areas instead of taking the stairs. Paths are absolutely necessary if a quest in the cell requires an NPC to walk around. Our very own Gez wrote an excellent how-to guide for path grids, which can be found at
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=17910&sid=b85e2bb4ad9c3b7d3892aa904fa3201b

Try again without a map1 dependency, and you should be able to tweak and re-tweak things until you have everything just right.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:11 pm

In general path grids are the job of NPC makers and aren't supposed to be laid down in interior creation, so they can be ignored.

MW showcases really need to be made with interiors that require the use of modular tile sets, so the modder demonstrates their ability to create interior architecture.

I am confused by the crashing of the CS with map1 dependency esp's. As long as I load the file with Map1 esm it never crashes. Is this not the case for either of you?

-Starcrunch

Morgoth Bauglir · Post by **Morgoth Bauglir** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:22 pm

Sorry for not having a look at it, I had lots of troubles with Map 1 (I never play Morrowind anymore and didn't had Map 1 installed) and it doesn't work now either...

Nicholas van Rjin · Post by **Nicholas van Rjin** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:28 am

Starcrunch wrote:I am confused by the crashing of the CS with map1 dependency esp's. As long as I load the file with Map1 esm it never crashes. Is this not the case for either of you?

Heh... I want a system like what you're running. My CS crashes every time I try to load an esp that is Map1 dependent. It seems I'm not the only one either:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=13160
Stalker wrote: "I can't load Map 1 dependant ESP in the editor without it crashing."

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=17946
TF wrote: "please do not make your file dependant on map 1, for some reason this causes the CS to crash when you open it."

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:50 am

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=13325

Link to thread with probable solution and explanation. I always manually select all ESM/ESP files I want to load so I never have problems.

-Starcrunch

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:47 am

Thanks for getting back to me, y'all Some of these issues I had half expected; I especially wondered about:

1. the size of thr place, and simplicity But basiclly, I went with what I had.

2.The lighting. I did try using settings from other telvanni homes. though I don't think any were manor 02's. The settings never seemed dark enough.. in the end, I decided it wasn't gonna get any better withour sone outside input.

3.A few objecrs like the bowl you mentioned. Mostly, I wasn't sure when bleed is okay, or how much.

The other stuff, I just missed. Anyway, I'll do my corrections... and I've got a second one in the works using the Indoril tileset. It'll be up in a few days.

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:53 am

Oh, I had a CTD when I tried to open my file by jusr highlighting it and hitting "set as active fule" and "okay". But as Starcrunch says click each dependanr manuallt and all is well.

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:56 pm

I've been working long hours this week; today I finally got time to make some corrections. I have a question though: How do remove the dependacy on Map1? It doesn't actually need to be there, just TR_Data for a few objects..

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:49 pm

You need a program called TESTDK. You can find it here: http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=modding_data/utils . With it you can remove or add dependacies.

Aeson93 · Post by **Aeson93** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:39 am

OK, I feel pretty good about this update, Still not happy with the dust adept helm though... catch me useing one of those again.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:56 pm

Nicholas van Rjin wrote:LOADING ERRORS: This esp had a dependency on TR_Map1.esm, causing the CS to experience CTD upon attempting to load it. After removing the map1 dependency, I received the following error upon loading it in the CS:
Missing object "TR_FW_k_chest_forks" for reference during cell "Aeson's Showcase House" load. The error was due to the chest being a map1 container, and having the map1 dependency removed.

This is a known problem with the CS. The folks at Bethsoft never thought a plugin would ever have more than four masters; and thus the CS isn't coded to "autoload" more than four masters.

If you manually check the TR_Map1.esm box before hitting "OK", the CS will load the file without crashing.

(By the way, Wrye Mash can remove and update dependencies in a much more comfortable way than TESDTK.)

Nicholas van Rjin · Post by **Nicholas van Rjin** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:47 am

You did a pretty good job on the corrections. You addressed everything I pointed out. There are two things that I may have missed on the first go-round:

1) The round table on the upper level is floating.

2) Remember the large bowl that you had to bleed so it wasn't resting on a point? (Good job on that, BTW) It seems the mortar and pestle beside it needs the same treatment. It is also resting on a point - noticeable in game, but difficult to see in the CS unless you zoom in close.

The drawers that were bleeding into the rug are no longer bleeding, but the other legs are now floating off the floor. The best option is to either move the rug or resize the rug (make it smaller) so it doesn't meet the legs of the drawers.

The iron ladle needs just a tiny tweak more before it will be resting against the rim of the bucket. Looks good in game, but noticeable in the CS.

The dust adept helm is balanced on a point. After checking some of the dust adept helms already in the game, I realized that half of them were bled heavily to avoid having to rotate them, and most of the rest are close, but no cigar. Seems this is a real tough item to get to rest naturally. You might want to rest it against something, like the one in Relvenim Ancestral Tomb (ignore the fact that that one doesn't touch the wall and it bleeds into the Telvanni shield beside it), or tilt it to get it to look something like this:
http://www.sourimage.com/img/f0eb50068ef4788780728ab3ab580bc3/dustadept.JPG
http://www.sourimage.com/img/d96fb4c8fc8f05da0a76d86f2e5b4ec9/dustadept2.JPG

It looks like you've got the hang of how to use the CS, but I would like to see a bit more use of objects rotated around the x/y axis. That skill is frequently needed to make things rest naturally. If I can steal enough time from work tonight, I'll write a mini-tutorial on rotating objects and PM it to you.

Also, as Starcrunch pointed out, showcases should really be created with modular tile sets instead of using a pre-made shell for the structure. Modular tilesets are those where you have to lay down individual wall and floor sections. I would recommend putting together a small house interior. It doesn't have to be anything fancy - just large enough to show you can build modular interiors. Just fill it with furniture and clutter, as you did here.