Pilgrimages for Almalexia and Sotha Sil

[Starcrunch]

We need to create a series of pilgrimages that have to do with the deeds of Almalexia and Sotha Sil that can be used on the mainland for the Tribunal Temple. There is far less information about these two than Vivec, so ideas are needed. The pilgrimage events for each need to be thematically linked if possible and a book written for each (like the Pilgrim's Path). This space can also be used to describe pilgrimage sites for important deeds of lesser saints, but the main focus should be the Tribunal (excluding Vivec).

Solid Ideas Compiled:
Virtue of Purity
Location: Waterfall cavern in map 2
Donation: Stoneflower Petals
Story: Here Almalexia came to wash the blood of war from her flesh after battles
Quotation: 'For as the waters rinse the blood of the unrighteous from my skin, their souls shall forever be lost.'

Virtue of Beauty
Location: A high hill overlooking the sea of dreams (6-32-Ind)
Donation: Coda Flower
Story: Here Almalexia comes to stand and minister her mastery of the stars
Quotation: 'The brightest and most beautiful diamonds of the night are more cherished than the greatest gems'

Virtue of Mercy
Location: Up in the north west near Skyrim
Donation: Bonemeal
Story: Here Almalexia stopped the army from desecrating the bodies of nords, and had them given a decent burial
Quotation: 'For though they have wounded you gravely, bear that we are not barbarians, and shall return their dead whole'

Virtue of Wisdom
Shrine Location: Just before reaching Almalexia, on the roadside
Donation: Chitin Weapon
Story: Here Almalexia met Nerevar and told him of the portents of war
Quotation: 'Seht who is also Azura has divined for us that war is come and that the Hortator that shall deliver us shall come with a solution walking at his side.'

Virtue of Bravery
Shrine Location: Hilltop overlooking Almalexia
Donation: Daedra Heart
Story: Here Almalexia and Sotha Sil challenged the Daedra Mehrunes Dagon as he stood over the ruined Mournhold. The blows dealt in the battle were so great that even the immortals felt them pierce deeply.
Quotation: 'Daedra, you cannot be slain, but this shall be your undoing. By dawn you shall know horrific justice that even your depravity cannot match.'

Virtue of Power
Shrine Location: Anywhere we want
Donation: Kwama Egg
Story: Here Almalexia came into existance
Quotation: 'insert strange creation myth here'

Virtue of Faith
Shrine Location: Yantus Point
Donation: Dreugh Wax
Story: Here Almalexia 'created' Vivec in the netchiman's wife and cast her into the sea for the dreugh
Quotation: 'For while what I do seems cruel, by my faith I know that good shall come of this'


-Starcrunch

EDIT: Fixed just for BC . Believe me when I say we can get it right in the book... regardless of what either of them are called in this thread.

[Harke the Apostle]

Count me in.
I'm loving Seht's tinkering ... and I am also want to write about Ayem the skanky borderliner. Maybe we could add a few Saints who were saved from almost certain temptation?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I am also want to write about Ayem the skanky borderliner.

I doubt that will be the side of her emphasized by her pilgrimages.

She is described as the "virtuous wife" of Nerevar by the Temple, even if some might think otherwise.

Think more the merciful mother, brilliant warrior and cunning tactician. That's more her style (at least publicly) She's also patron of Healers and Teachers.

Oh, and just one slight thing. @Crunch, it's "Sotha" Sil. (You've used "Sortha" repeatedly in the past) and @Harke, it's Seht, not Seth. (Could just be a typo on your behalf, but it's a common misconception)

I know its not really my place to pick people up on these things, but if you're going to be writing new books and lore, I think it best to point these things out now, rather than after the books are written. (Not trying to be rude or overbearing here, but it might sound like it. If so, sorry.)

[Starcrunch]

The following is a description of a shrine on map 1 (courtesty of BC):

The shrine's basic description is: MessageBox "Here it was that the Underking was defeated in battle by the Tribunal, and subsequently reawakened by Lady Almalexia to help defeat the Akaviri demon Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal at Red Mountain."

The blessing message is to be: MessageBox "The Shrine of Foresight: Through her foresight, Almalexia knew to be merciful to the Underking, who would prove useful in the future. In our own lives we should not act in haste against our enemies, but instead judge what use a humbled foe might have."

The following idea is from Sload:

btw, Meridia, lost child of Magnus the Sun, landed in Map 1 once upon a time, and Molag Bal, corner of the House of Trouble, proceeded to ravage her profusely, until Ayem, face-snaked queen and mother of the Veloth, moved herself into Meridia's self and did battle with the invaders. This was recorded by Sul Daryloth, scribe in the court of the Alma Rula Indoril Gindir-Eyel (2E 504-511).

-Starcrunch

[Jale]

Personally I think it would be good to follow the '7 virtues' idea behind the Pilgrim's Path. Here we have one themed after each of 7 different virtues: humility, daring, generosity, courtesy, justice, valour and pride. How about 7 virtues of Ayem and Seht?

Perhaps for Ayem: Power, beauty, mercy, bravery, compassion, faith and wisdom

Seht: Ingenuity, expertise, intelligence, dexterity, vision, honesty and reliability.

Also I would go for the alliteration of the original. Here's just a few ideas:

The Pilgrim's Passage
Shrine of Wisdom: Here Ayem commanded Nerevar to prepare for war, and he presented the egg of vivec to her. Location: Somewhere within Almalexia. Offering: a chitin longsword

Shrine of Beauty: Here Ayem stood to view her dominion of the stars and the sky. Location: A really high mountain. Offering: a potion of light.

Shrine of Faith: Here Ayem tested the faith of Nerevar, commanding him to walk where there was no path. Location: A ravine, with the shrine on the unreachable side, and an invisible bridge in between. Offering: A potion of slowfall

The Pilgrim's Portent
Shrine of expertise: Here Seht stood as he brought forth an army of mechanical Dreugh from the sea to attack the Dwemer. Location: Anywhere costal. Offering: A Dwemer tube.

Shrine of Vision: Here Seht revealed to the Netchiman's wife that she would bear the God Vivec. Location: somewhere opposite Azura's coast, next to the sea. Offering: Dreugh Wax

[Hemitheon]

How bout the Daedra Lord Peryite once set foot upon Morrowind and spread pestilence across the plains, killing all people and destroying the crops. After Ayem was able to drive him back into Oblivion, Seht created a cure for the plague and Ayem turned the serum into rain which not only cleansed the plains and farms but also revived the dead. That is if we are going by the book On Oblivion which makes Peryite lord of plague.

or

A clockmaker once claimed he was a better artist than Sotha Sil. The clockmaker created a replica of Sotha Sil and so the people stopped worshipping the Tribunal because the automaton spouted lies about Almsivi. So Sotha Sil came and challenged the clockmaker. The clockmaker produced moving figures of the Tribunal each lying and blaspheming. So Sotha Sil produced a jewel encrusted Imperfect whose majesty was so create, the 3 automata fell to their knees and praised Sotha Sil.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I like all those ideas Jale, they sound good to me. (I particularly like Seht's Expertise and Ayem's Faith)

Perhaps the player could recieve a bonus for walking the path of a certain Triune (though of course, this would probably result in Vehk being left out, seeing as he's on Vvardenfell, and that'd be unfair)?

Oh, and personally I unfortunately don't really like Sload's idea as it seems a bit 'over the top': possessing a Daedric Prince and being able to do what a Daedric Prince couldn't (in this case fend off Bal) just seems way too powerful. Of course, it could just be propaganda, but it's fairly blatant exaggeration (AFAICS).

[Starcrunch]

It would be a little unfair, but not a glaring problem. I'd make the bonus something like the power granted the player by accepting the lucky coin from in ghost gate (not that it would be granted in a similar manner, just that it would be a Power type spell under the spellmaking tab in the editor). This bonus would only be granted after completing all of the pilgrimages for a given series.

-Starcrunch

[Hemitheon]

Maybe as a prize they could receive a minor saint relic, like a special bottle of wine made by Seryn or a pot Delyn made as a kid.

[Jale]

I was imagining this as a parallel to the 'get into the Vivec part of the tribunal temple'.

The Vivec temple is dealt with, and I guess the Almalexia temple isnt hiring at the moment, and the Sotha Sil temple would be rather more...esoteric.

Personally I think it would be cool if the Almalexia 'portion' of the temple should only allow you to rise to about Disciple or even maybe Diviner, but be fairly weak.

I think the portion of Sotha Sil on the other hand should be pretty much dead...I mean the god hasn't been with men for a while, and its pretty much the cult of personality which Vivec and Almalexia keep that actually makes the temple what it is. Perhaps through research from books it should be possible to sort of revive that portion of the temple.

What I mean is:

-Find a copy of "The Pilgrim's Portent", follow the pilgrimage
-Talk to a priest in Necrom, go on to perform a hard pilgrimage or two
-Retrieve various artefacts of the old temple
-Get funds to found a new Fane in Sotha Sil's Honour
-Rebuild a cult

I think that would be fun and fairly logical and lore-friendly. (Yes it is pretty out-there and 'uber' but I think its reasonable for the reward)

[kebra]

Hé, hé, maybee it will be possible to build a bit in the Sotha'style.

There is some places well adapted for pilgrimage quest, Dun Akafell, the Theo's claim in map4, Blacklight, Wada-garidur, Necrom (of course)... it's a good pretext for the player to visit.

Following the 7 virtues is a good idea.

[Sload]

Most followers should be primarily devoted to Ayem, as she "walked among the common folk and was beloved and exalted by them." Vvardenfell is Vivec's island, and Vivec is MK's favorite. That's the only reason he's been the focus so far.

Oh, and personally I unfortunately don't really like Sload's idea as it seems a bit 'over the top': possessing a Daedric Prince and being able to do what a Daedric Prince couldn't (in this case fend off Bal) just seems way too powerful. Of course, it could just be propaganda, but it's fairly blatant exaggeration (AFAICS).

No she went inside Meridia's vagina and fought valiantly against Molag Bal's divine sperm.

[Harke the Apostle]

I like Jale's ideas. I would also like to have a few quests that tie in with Seht's and Ayem's darker character traits.
I picture Seth as tending slightly towards autistism.
I don't even need to expand on Almalexia's darker side. (Tribunal managed that pretty well, thank you).

As for a religious book about Ayem, how does In Her Mistresses Service sound?
It consists of speculative essays written by one of Her Hands, that would blend theological arguments, with theoretical situations and actual occurences. An example; what if Almalexia would want to descend the platform in the High Chapel where there were no stairs?

[Jale]

Why oh why would the dark side be followed by the Temple? For the love of god THINK??? We are talking about pilgrimages and quests of the gods, right? Well religions tend to gloss over the nastier bits of their deities. For example:

[img]http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/hprajani/phun/god-v-satan.png[/img]

Yes anti-god quests, or even daedric quests could expand on darker sides, but why the quests set up by their followers?

Also, since when does a mental handicap constitute a dark side? Or a clinical disease? Seht's dark side was his arrogance, and Ayem's was her lust.

I suppose it would be logical for each of them to also have their own version of 'the lessons', sort of like different Gospels. Of course, Sotha Sil's would be very rare and all but lost.

[Starcrunch]

I want to steer this away from RL religions discussion (such discussion, like political discussion, end only in tears when conducted over the internet with intransigent people on all sides). That said, Jale is absolutely correct, these are pilgrimages for those faithful to the Tribunal Temple. These quests will be official Tribunal Temple dogma, and should in no way be antithetical to the Temple's core beliefs.

-Starcrunch

[Lud]

Hmm, I don't see any reason that we have to have just seven pilgrimmages for Ayem. In fact, seeing as she's worshipped more than Vehk, eleven or so might make more sense.

I also think that "In her Mistress' Service" sounds like something Mills & Boon might sell.

Looking at Ayem first, we need to examine what her most important qualities are: (in the eyes of the Temple)
-She protects her people
-She helps the weak/sick/etc
-She guides/leads
-She seems to have spent the most time ministering to her people
(This is based on my interpretation of dialogue in Tribunal, please feel free to prove me wrong)

Hence, her pilgrimmages should be structured around her ministering to and protecting her people. The virtes that this would suggest:

-Charity
-Mercy
-Forgiveness (?)
-She protects her people

-Poise
-Beauty (Jale's idea for this is good)
-Grace
-She is beautiful, charismatic, etc

-Foresight (Crusty's idea is nice)
-Judgement (Jale's shrine of wisdom idea?)
-Faith (Jale's idea for this is good)
-She guides/leads

-Bravery
-Fortitude (Sload's one?)
-She is a protector

This is my attempt to put some sort of structure on the ideas, based on Ayem's most important qualities. I'm fully aware that others here know more than me about lore though.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Some of her more war-like aspects should come through as well. As I said, she is a brilliant warrior and cunning tactitian.

In addition to all her 'motherly' tendencies, she also has that side. (Which is the side of her represented on the Ghostfence (she wears her war mask) coincidentally, so it's probably not hidden)

[Jale]

Well as with Vivec, she would of course have other pilgimages (like the Sanctum Shrine one...*shudder*), its just that 7 was probably chosen for initiation by Bethesda because of the 7 Deadly Sins and 7 Heavenly Virtues. The idea of orders with numbers is always popular with religions as it gives an impression of a design or plan. So I think, for the initial quest (which was pretty long even on Vvardenfel), 7 would be enough for starters, and many more can follow.

[Sload]

Write quests about their alleged "dark sides" anyways. Chances are that many of them wouldn't be considered morally problematic by the Dunmer.

[Lady Nerevar]

personaly, i love the sperm fighting thing how about having the player go into some dark cave and fight of the servants of Bal? and then place a nice note explaining the symbolism at the end

[stupid, but i just had to post it]

[kebra]

Nota

Dark followers are always uncommon, sparse and powerfull in front of the majority behind the good.(rule of the style)

That mean that those pilgrimages must be adapted to strong and decided individualities. They must stay confidential and because they are not the normality, they must integrate some purifications from the good.
Ex: A wiki one, in christian societees, individuals born christian, following the devil is a pesonnal decision, an adult choice who suppose a ceremony, the sabbah. Bad fund is definition in front of good.
And, usually, civilian authorities hunt the dark god's followers, they are at least marginal.

That could be a good starting point.
Pilgrimage is an idea i like, but we have to make them a bit different, adapted, not only to the god(and is attributs), but also to the place is religion have.

[Nomadic1]

Kebra, that made no sense

[Harke the Apostle]

At the moment I don't have any ideas that are as good as most of what has been mentioned so far.
However, I'd like to expand on what I meant with 'dark'.
It's eminently possible that the Tribunal's actions are perhaps not entirely consistent with contemporary morality.
(As happens with religions based upon historical figures. No, not that again! It will all end in Tear.)
As for quests, perhaps a quest for Almalexia could be the

Shrine of Exegesis, Here Almalexia preached from the Sermons. You should first read the book, and then pick the right lines from your dialogue menu. (like in A Star Is Born in Tribunal).

As for Seht

Shrine of Solution, use the alchemical apparatus to synthesize the Alcahest. When you succeed the alchemical apparatus disappears, dissolved by the Alcahest.
The Temple where you do this has a storage room full of alembic mortar and pestles etc.

[Jale]

My point is that regardless of whether or not there are bad points to the gods, and even in their holy books, rarely will the followers cherish that idea enough to make a pilgrimage to that spot.

I mean, do we pilgrimage to the place where Ayem threw a blind woman to the dreugh, and she was washed up on Azura's coast? No. But we do go to a field where Vivec did some farming. Far less important plot-wise, but more impressive to a layman.

One of the most hardcore quests in the whole game, the one where you had to get from one end of the map to the other without talking to anyone, was in fact purely because the Archcanon sat there while he was writing a few sermons a few years ago. They are more likely to form pilgrimages out of really mundane but 'good' things than acts which are somewhat questionable to us (even if the dunmer would usually not mind).

Does anyone else thing that rebuilding the Temple of Seht would be a good idea? I think this would be a really fun exercise in self-lead questing for a big reward. All of the other times its a case of 'here is a quest, complete it, return to me for another'. Having to find the quest and work out what the quest actually is first would be really cool.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Does anyone else thing that rebuilding the Temple of Seht would be a good idea? I think this would be a really fun exercise in self-lead questing for a big reward. All of the other times its a case of 'here is a quest, complete it, return to me for another'. Having to find the quest and work out what the quest actually is first would be really cool.

That kind of idea is brilliant, and the kind of thing that, as a quest bloke, I'd love to be involved in.

However, in this case saying that Seht's Temple is destroyed or forgotten seems slightly weird. He is a real god who lives in the physical world, he's not an Aedra. If he wanted his Temple, he'd build it.

To suggest he needs the player to do it for him seems to put Sil in too bad a light, and makes the Tribunal in general seem weak, an idea (as a big Temple fan) I'm not keen to support.

But certainly, the idea of quests like that is brilliant.

[Jale]

The thing is that we know that there is an Archcanon/Patriarch of Vivec: Tholer Saryoni. He's in Vivec, head of the temple for Vvardenfell.

We also meet the Lord Archcanon/Patriarch of Almalexia: Gavas Drin. He's in Almalexia, and presumably head of the temple for the mainland.

But we never hear of the Archcanon/Patriarch of Sotha Sil. Heck, there isn't even a city to have the temple under. Sotha Sil has long since lost touch with the world and the Dunmer. He's so far removed from life that when he was murdered nothing at all changed, and nobody knew. Even Vivec and Almalexia's deaths probably were noticed by someone, but warranted a cover-up and immense denial.

I guess that even if there ever was a following around Sotha Sil, that's long since diminished. Even his Great House is dead. I'm guessing that with any god that at some point he did have followers, texts and so forth, like the others, but he got bored with it (he seems like he gets bored easily) and left all that to rot.

The quest could be easily accomplished through finding the 'Pilgrim' book in Necrom, and accomplishing it. Then you could ask some archivers about it who would mention the X Number of lessons of Sotha Sil, which could be found in Necrom, and various other places, and a few would mention specific locations which could be located, and found as further pilgrimages.

Also recruiting priests and getting a temple (maybe in Necrom?) would be interesting.

In fact, perhaps it could be integrated into the 'Almalexia' quests...as in by the end of the Almalexia bit you are put in charge of a temple (perhaps in Necrom?), and if you have been following along with the Sotha Sil stuff then you can convert it and become the New Patriarch of Sotha Sil.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Again, I love the idea of that style of quest, but it just doesn't wash well with me.

It is ALMSIVI, remember, not just ALMVI.

Seht is well known as a recluse, he's just not going to be as popular.

Do we know that Saryoni and Tribunal bloke are actually "Vivec's personal Archcanon" and "Almalexia's personal Archcanon", or are they just the Temple's Vvardenfell/Mainland representatives, as we are doing things in TR?

[Jale]

Think about it...we have loads of churches where they say 'worship God', loads where they say 'worship the trinity', loads where they say 'worship Jesus'.

How many say 'worship the holy ghost'? That's essentially Seht's role. He is an intrinsic part of the religion, and its not like its as clear cut as 'this is Vivec's temple, this is Almalexia's, but I doubt he has his own fane anymore.

And this proves to me that the Archcanons are personal:
http://til.gamingsource.net/mwbooks/saryoni_sermon.shtml

See Almalexia in there? Or Sotha Sil? Or even ALMSIVI? Heck the word tribunal doesn't even appear.

[CleverClothe]

I love the idea Jale. But I don't think Necrom is the right city for it. I don't think the player should be able to build up so important a temple so quickly.

Perhaps it should be build it a place designed to attract Seht's attention so that he will actually hang out with his followers every once in a while.

[Nomadic1]

Umm... Seht is dead. And was dead for a long time by the time the PC finds him. If the PC finishes Tribunal, the whole questline of making a temple to him doesn't make sense. He doesn't even seem to want a temple to him, having abandoned much of his pretences towards godhood a while back.

I think the idea is good but completely off the planet in terms of lore, and in consideration of the expansion.

[Jale]

I am just going to quickly revise what I consider the structure of the temple to be: while everyone worships ALMSIVI, the Patriarchs (or Archcanons) act as personal liaisons to the Tribunal, and also run the temple for a certain area. Thus they are kind of bias and the area they inhabit is also fairly biased.

Seht's dead and gone. Even before he actually dies the consensus is that he's not coming back. But consider the current state of affairs:

-Vvardenfell is quarantined. The Archcanon of Vivec is thus impotent on the mainland.
-Mournhold is sealed. The Lord Archcanon of Almalexia is thus less than at full power...presumably he can pass orders out though.
-There is no evidence to suggest that Sotha Sil still has an Archcanon around, but there is evidence he did once have followers

Seht appeared out of a cloud of iron vapor and his minions made of their blood a chair

Then again those could be constructs or summoned minions. In 2920 he at least has a class of Psjiics under his wing. Still, it seems likely that if the other two had liaisons, he would have. It also seems logical that after sealing himself away this person who's job it is to talk to him would have become obsolete.

It seems pretty reasonable to me that since the other two Patriarchs are sealed away at the moment that they wouldn't exactly mind having someone step up to take charge of the temple, and since Seht is the only one without a Patriarch, that could be the only option. I doubt they would refute the claim of someone who has single-handedly tracked down all of Seht's lost shrines and teachings.

Begs the question, do they know if you have become the new Patriarch of Vivec?

Necrom is the only religious city that is currently actually accessible to the rest of the world. Seems the logical place to run the temple from in lieu of Vivec and Mournhold.

Most lore friendly way to accomplish this would be:
-make it so they have not heard that you are the Patriarch of Vivec
-have you have to reach the end of the 'Almalexia' questline, putting you in charge of the Temple in Necrom
-have you hunt down all this additional stuff
-get the final rank by getting other high ranking priests to agree to your claim, and have a missive sent from the Lord Archcanon to this effect.

Also the idea that you are building up a temple 'too quickly' is very very silly. This is a game wherein you can join the Temple and then be considered the pope within a week. Or enlist in the army and be running it soon after. Or join the most elitist, ancient and xenophobic Great Houses as a foreigner with no skills and be their boss very quickly. The idea that the Temple would re-institute an old job in response to a need for a leader seems almost mundane compared to these.

[Nomadic1]

Would the archcanons really be impotent? In the case of Saryoni, he can go tell the Imperials to get fucked - they wouldn't mess with him. In the case of Drin, since Almalexia isolated Mournhold, it is presumable that he is immune from the isolation. Besides it is presumable he has the entire weight of House Indoril behind him, and it is not until some time from when this all takes place that they become weak.

And yes, everyone would know who the new patriarch of Vivec is. A real world comparison would be when there is a new pope, everybody hears about it.

[Jale]

But they are on the quarantined island. Even the Nerevarine himself had to sneak out via teleportation. If they sealed off the Vatican and nobody was allowed in or out, how would we know who he was?

The gates of Symacchius are sealed. I doubt even Drin would go against that. If he has any concessions then he would be able to post letters in and out, but even then that's a bad way to do it.

And regardless of whether or not he is impotent, we need some way for the player to 'beat' the temple, and since there is no room for superseding Drin, re-instating the post of Archcanon to Seht is the only option.

Heck, it could even be that the 'Archcanon of Seht' is a largely ceremonial post which simply means that you are the head of the temple at Necrom, with no connection to Seht, but with him as your 'patron god'. Then the self-lead questing would be to prove yourself better than this other Patriarch, as 'closer to Seht' and thus get the job.

[Sload]

Using Vivec's sermons to back up anything as mundane as archcanony is highly erroneous.

[Jale]

Using Vivec's sermons to back up anything as mundane as archcanony is highly erroneous.

Simply pointing out that he had minions, implying followers as the others.

[Nomadic1]

But they are on the quarantined island. Even the Nerevarine himself had to sneak out via teleportation. If they sealed off the Vatican and nobody was allowed in or out, how would we know who he was?

The gates of Symacchius are sealed. I doubt even Drin would go against that. If he has any concessions then he would be able to post letters in and out, but even then that's a bad way to do it.

And regardless of whether or not he is impotent, we need some way for the player to 'beat' the temple, and since there is no room for superseding Drin, re-instating the post of Archcanon to Seht is the only option.

Too bad the Dunmer don't have spy networks or teleportation.

Sorry, but I had to point out the possibility of the Temple using the same techniques as the Nerevarine.

Also Almalexia would not do anything to hinder people worshipping her, so by that thread she would not hinder her archcanon.

Heck, it could even be that the 'Archcanon of Seht' is a largely ceremonial post which simply means that you are the head of the temple at Necrom, with no connection to Seht, but with him as your 'patron god'. Then the self-lead questing would be to prove yourself better than this other Patriarch, as 'closer to Seht' and thus get the job.

I don't think the head of the temple at Necrom should be a job the PC can obtain. It would be so overwhelmed by duty and ceremony that someone would have to be nuts to want it. The PC also should not be allowed to obtain two archcanonships.

[Jale]

By that logic, he shouldn't be head of both Vvardenfell and Mainland groups full stop. That doesn't work for fun. Yes its not very logical for someone to be named both head of the legion for Vvardenfell and the rest of Morrowind. Yes its not very logical for the guilds to take the same person as their leader for two areas. Same for the Temple, but its more fun to not stop players from playing quests.

Also recall how illogical it was to have you, the Archcanon, having to ask permission of the guy who's job you had just taken in order to get to see Vivec. Sillyness.

My point is that impeccable logic, when it stops you from playing fun quests because of something you did a long time ago before you understood the implications (or downloaded the mod), should be tempered with a healthy dose of NPC ignorance.

And also...ever see Drin leave his office? Ever? Evereverever? Or even a hint that he has ever actually been outside of there? Even Saryoni had visited the Sanctus shrine.

I would also like to point out the ridiculousness of saying that the Necrom job is overwhelmed by ceremony. ALL of the head of guildships would be like that. Think that being a Guildmaster is any fun really? What about the Archcanon? None of the morrowind guilds actually hold you to any responsibility. The Necrom temple is the perfect target for the PC.

[Nomadic1]

There's game limitations, and then there are other ones. The objection I have to the PC not gaining more than one patriarchate is more akin to the PC not becoming the guild bossguy of all cities in the MG or FG; instead the PC goes to the top of the ladder. It's the same as the archcanonships - it is the same rank. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. It's not like the other factions where there is still the highest rung of the ladder to climb to. There, also, is still the fallacy that Seht is dead, or will die before long.

And also...ever see Drin leave his office? Ever? Evereverever? Or even a hint that he has ever actually been outside of there? Even Saryoni had visited the Sanctus shrine.

Er... this is Morrowind, not Oblivion. NPCs just stand around 24-7 doing bugger all.

I would also like to point out the ridiculousness of saying that the Necrom job is overwhelmed by ceremony. ALL of the head of guildships would be like that. Think that being a Guildmaster is any fun really? What about the Archcanon? None of the morrowind guilds actually hold you to any responsibility. The Necrom temple is the perfect target for the PC.

Now I was thinking of Oblivion. My bad.

[Sload]

Using Vivec's sermons to back up anything as mundane as archcanony is highly erroneous.

Simply pointing out that he had minions, implying followers as the others.

Minions who made a chain out of their blood. Though everything in that Sermon is completely true, that doesn't mean it pertains to the "real" world.

Though the Master Sotha does have followers, like the rest of them. I'm sure he has an archcanon. I'm sure that there is a seperate but equally extant Archcanon of Narsis. I also think the Holy Lands should be the holy lands, and that Narsis needs a revamp to be bigger and have shrines to all 1,008 saints of the Dunmer.

But remember that in the end, most people just worship all three.

[Jale]

Strangely in most places it is considered better to try and make your own points and ideas rather than just futilely mocking other people's.

And while its entirely true that most people worship all three, Saryoni is explicitly named as the 'Chancellor of Vivec'. If each are held in equal esteem then Seht deserves a Chancellor, and since this is the only person who isn't in the original game, and thus the only person we can edit and allow the PC to become, we should find a reasonable way for the player to supersede him.

And where is the problem with that?