Pilgrimages for Almalexia and Sotha Sil

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:40 am

Nomadic1 wrote:There's game limitations, and then there are other ones. The objection I have to the PC not gaining more than one patriarchate is more akin to the PC not becoming the guild bossguy of all cities in the MG or FG; instead the PC goes to the top of the ladder. It's the same as the archcanonships - it is the same rank. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. It's not like the other factions where there is still the highest rung of the ladder to climb to. There, also, is still the fallacy that Seht is dead, or will die before long.

Wait, so we're not allowing anyone to become head of any factions if they're the head on Vvardenfell?

That seems a bit illogical.

Anyway, I agree that Seht does need an Archcanon, I just don't agree that he should be some kind of long forgotten post that everyone's forgotten about, and that needs to be 'rediscovered'. I'd have thought there would be one, just, like everyone else, he has little contact with Seht.

But, to everybody else apart from Jale, if we're not going with the 'rebuilding of Seht's temple' thing, how are we going to let the player complete the Temple questline?

And also, remember to keep the pilgrimage ideas coming.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:52 am

Perhaps becoming this 'Archcanon of Seht' should be the ultimate goal of the single Temple questline. If you ignore the Seht elements then you can only get so far, after all the Lord Archcanon is in a place where we can't edit.

But I still like the idea of having to track down esoteric books to find the quests, rather than having a questgiver tell you them.

Maybe the Seht-man is senile, and so you have to refer to his meagre collection of Seht's lessons for some ideas, and find copies of the others which have been gradually dispersed. He can only give you hints.

And I still say he should be in Necrom. Where better to install the Chancellor of a dead god of mystery and endings than the city of the dead?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:02 am

I think being archcanon of seht would be boring, but I am not morally opposed to it. What happened to coming up with wacky dance moves we can celebrate about the Tribunal?

Par example: Seht cultivated his own mother in his Clockwork City from a sprout of nirnroot.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:10 am

I think we should try and have a big trippy session where we all try to write 'Lessons of Almalexia' and 'Lessons of Sotha Sil', and try and out-trippify each other. That would be productive and fun.

And to be honest being archcanon of vivec was boring too. Good money on it that being lord archcanon of almalexia is as well. And don't even get me started on Primate of the imperial cult.

And EVERYONE knows that Seht's mother was an opalescent drip of infinity that fell from the back of an allegorical guar.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:30 am

Guars aren't Seht. He's mech all da way.

Down rivetswamp to Mecha train'd the caroucells laden with fabristractications and robiots.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:32 am

Yes, the irony is that it was nature that bore synthetics.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:45 am

I'd like it if TR could subtly hint at the difference between the 'fabristractications' and the 'Dwemerses Structs'. Crudely between the difference Alchemy and 'Steamchemy'.

We should also write down the words of Sotha in an MK-like and Burroughs-esque text where the paranoia and autism of their author become immediately apparent.

Who first created Skooma? Could it have been Seht? If he did, were his retorts sealed?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:50 am

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:Wait, so we're not allowing anyone to become head of any factions if they're the head on Vvardenfell?

That seems a bit illogical.

That is not at all what I said. What I said was that is shit if the PC can become head of a guild on Vvardenfell, then on the mainland where the big cahoona of said guild is, the PC can't become that, and can only attain a rank equal to the one already on Vvardenfell. The Temple (and House Redoran for a differing reason) is the only faction like that where the PC cannot get the top job, and can only get a rank equal to what they already had on Vvardenfell. Which was shit once attained.

I don't know the direction I'd like to see the Temple questline take. Becoming the big boss of Necrom's temple is one option I've warmed to. But I don't think the PC should become the archcanon of a second of the Tribunal.

EDIT: Harke, the Khajiit invented skooma. But maybe Sotha Sil invented something really good.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:55 am

Harke the Apostle wrote:We should also write down the words of Sotha in an MK-like and Burroughs-esque text where the paranoia and autism of their author become immediately apparent.

Who first created Skooma? Could it have been Seht? If he did, were his retorts sealed?

I still don't know where you're getting this stuff from. Any sources?

Oh, and thanks for clearing that up, Nomadic. What's the problem with Redoran though?

I'm a big Temple 'n' Redoran fan, so I'm interested as to what's going on with those guys.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:00 am

an imPerfect account of an imPerfect creation

dawn rivetswamp two Mecha train'd the caroucells laidin with the fabristractications and robiots who sweptly in there hammerstance too cyst an' crash on fawning basic mash room pedostalls int his seribrhumming mined winowed Sil ovum Sotha who woz nomonymous Seht anticicceptated the failalure rebeing that he was a foreliving God and so forthwesth ignoble argon the onlickers maid much talk but'tall that happend and it was in clair too the mageturner beastsealer thathis noview creatins wear a fancy failcoat witch wasame as all privy us and fore this raisin seht in much upsit

try it

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am

Sload wrote:<snip>

For me (I'm sure it's just me though, you guys seem to be having a ball

), this "Sotha Sil is autistic" thing seems a bit weird, and having his holy writings mispellt seems a bit like it could be possibly offensive, and also just makes the writer look like an idiot to the casual reader (who many of the people using TR would be)

Sil deserves better than that, IMO.

But hey, I'm just a humble quest-bloke. Who am I to say?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 am

1. Seht is not autistic.

1. Harke is wrong.

2. Every word is spelt the way it should be.

3. I've spent the evening copying quotes from Finnegans Wake onto the [url=http://www.drawball.com]drawball[/url]

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:10 am

Sload wrote:1. Seht is not autistic.

2. Every word is spelt the way it should be.

Oh, that's good to know.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:15 am

Seht was probably wearing his ran00 Mask when he said it.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:20 am

Sload wrote: 1. Seht is not autistic.

1. Harke is wrong.

2. Every word is spelt the way it should be.

3. I've spent the evening copying quotes from Finnegans Wake onto the [url=http://www.drawball.com]drawball[/url]

1. Seht is/was something. Immortality tends to be a psychological burden on former mer.

1. Sload can't count.

@ Crusty: No, I made it all up.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:25 am

hmm

maybe he could be such an introvert that he had collapsed into his mind when Ayem came to kill him

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:25 am

Harke the Apostle wrote: 1. Seht is/was something. Immortality tends to be a psychological burden on former mer.

Which is why Vehk's a raving loon, yes?

And I think a former Psijiic/uber wizard could handle it.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:17 am

Harke the Apostle wrote: 1. Sload can't count.

#. Harke can't make the leap in logic needed to see that the actual meanings behind points 1 and 1 are the same.

as for an actual idea. perhaps for some reason I lack the brain power to think of now, the player travels to a shrine in a dwemer ruin, the door seals behind them and they are unable to escape. there are 3 dwemer consoles in the room and each asks a highly technical question that can be learned from one of the documents in the room. The room however is filled with documents and schematics and there is only one copy of the correct ones (one for each console). If the player answers the question wrong, then some sort of difficult creature attacks (progressively more difficult as more questions are missed). After the player answers all 3 questions (right or wrong) and all monsters in the cell are dead, then the door will open again and the player will recieve the blessing, possibly fortify intelligence and willpower.

*needs to actually read the sermons*

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:32 am

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:
Harke the Apostle wrote: 1. Sload can't count.
#. Harke can't make the leap in logic needed to see that the actual meanings behind points 1 and 1 are the same.

as for an actual idea. perhaps for some reason I lack the brain power to think of now, the player travels to a shrine in a dwemer ruin, the door seals behind them and they are unable to escape. there are 3 dwemer consoles in the room and each asks a highly technical question that can be learned from one of the documents in the room. The room however is filled with documents and schematics and there is only one copy of the correct ones (one for each console). If the player answers the question wrong, then some sort of difficult creature attacks (progressively more difficult as more questions are missed). After the player answers all 3 questions (right or wrong) and all monsters in the cell are dead, then the door will open again and the player will recieve the blessing, possibly fortify intelligence and willpower.

*needs to actually read the sermons*

I like the idea of the questions, but why would the Dwemer have a shrine to the Tribunal/why would the pilgrims take the trouble to build one there?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:10 pm

I think he means that the Dwemer ruin was converted into a shrine.

If we write sermons for Almalexia and Sotha Sil, we could mention one of them doing something in that shrine. Maybe Sotha Sil went there to learn from the Dwemer and they gave him a cruelly hard test. Sotha Sil perceived the answers to the test by reading the faces of the Dwemer like books and so was able to pass the test. Dwemer awed and Sotha Sil spent time with them. Sotha Sil later became a god and set up the shrine to test the learning of the Dunmer faithful.

Maybe a better idea could be come up with.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:19 pm

Sload wrote:hmm

maybe he could be such an introvert that he had collapsed into his mind when Ayem came to kill him

collapsed enough to not make a sound as she killed him in what looks like not such a pleasant way ("dangly wirey mechanical death") - or perhaps he couldn't make a sound even if he wanted to - perhaps he wired himself up into the "dangly wirey mechanical death machine"

Seht rocks!
[img]http://www.xgm.ru/pics/article/314_2.gif[/img]
...gently on his wires

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Autism is not something you can develop. It is something you are born with, and it shows up later. He couldn't become autistic when he became a god because that's like saying he suddenly developed down's syndrome.

He's just odd. That's it. You would be odd too if you were a man who became so powerful even before you were a god, then were raised to immortality and even explored Oblivion. But all accounts of his dialogue actually seem far more balanced than Ayem or Vivec...perhaps due to him not quite embracing his new role to the extent of the other two.

Having read a bit more I would also like to revise some definitions:

Patriarch = Highest group of ranks in the temple
Archcanon = Head of an area of the temple (Vvardenfel for example)
Lord Archcanon = Most important archcanon
Chancellor = Liaison to one of the tribunal

I think this because of how this letter was signed:

written at the request of and in the name of his Reverend Honor Tholer Saryoni, Archcanon and Chancellor of Vivec

Chancellor is a very prestigious way to say Secretary. So I guess someone could be Archcanon of Necrom (and presumably all that stuff to the west) without any patronage of a specific Tribunal god.

I still think we should have the book-lead Seht quests even if it is simply to make you known as the foremost authority on Seht, and thus one of the most important Archcanons. Perhaps you could even be given the option of lying, and saying that Seht has visited you in dreams.

Because heaven forfend that the Tribunal Temple lie!

EDIT: Timescale - Sotha Sil was last reported to be outside of his city 10 years ago, but the consensus is that he had long since retired from the mortal world to his own devising. I would also argue that his radical alterations of his own body are attempts to prolong his godhood as the heart becomes less accessible.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:59 pm

While all of this is fascinating, it gets us no closer to developing two sets of pilgrimages (one for Seht and another for Ayem). I agree that writing lessons for the two would be an interesting exercise, and would help with the problem of pilgrimages, but I'm not convinced that anyone here is talented enough to pull it off. At this point I'm not too concerned about the Archcanon position as until the pilgrimages are designed the PC won't even be able to join the faction and whatever is decided on later concerning the PC's final state within the Temple has little bearing on the pilgrimage sites.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but we are disparately late in the game and we need to focus on the task at hand rather than pipe dreams down the road. I know it's cooler to discuss the fate of the PC when they are at the pinnacle of their power, but for that journey to have meaning the opening acts need attention too.

-Starcrunch

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:01 pm

Well we still need to work out what is pilgrimage-worthy. I mean, is it worth a pilgrimage to see where the Netchiman's wife was cast into the sea? That's important to the religion but not so much to Almalexia, and also its rather dark. The place where she fought Dagon however (probably outside the plaza rather than inside, obviously) would be worthwhile even though its more prevalent in 2920 then any religious text, but its a very glorious moment.

EDIT: In fact make that the Virtue of Bravery:

Virtue of Bravery
Shrine Location: Hilltop overlooking Almalexia
Donation: Daedra Heart
Story: Here Almalexia and Sotha Sil challenged the Prince of Rape Mehrunes Dagon as he stood over the ruined Mournhold. The blows dealt in the battle were so great that even the immortals felt them pierce deeply.
Quotation: 'Daedra, you cannot be slain, but this shall be your undoing. By dawn you shall know horrific justice that even your depravity cannot match.'

(also since all of the Vivec ones are called 'Graces' I thought it would be cool to have the Ayem ones called Virtues and the Seht ones 'Merits')

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:12 pm

Is Mehrunes indeed the Prince of Rape? I can't find the Lore on TIL. It does say Molag is the King. (I also wouldn't pick Mehrunes from the daedric list to call depraved, especially not by Ayem...).

[edited away for sheer uselessness]

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:04 pm

Dagon is the Prince of Destruction (or perhaps rage), he has a long history of breaking pretty things that belong to other people (like Mournhold in 2920, or the Imperial Battlespire in the game of that name). He is also known as the Prince of Disaster, IIRC.

Molag Bal is the King of Rape to the Dunmer; most of that is tied in with Vivec, whom he raped, and spawned a viscous group of monsters, referred to as biters in the Sermons. Vivec then hunts down and kills all the monsters.

-Starcrucnh

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:50 pm

Well sorry, got my epithets mixed up. This is an actual historic event so it isn't debatable which Daedra is used. This is right after Dagon destroyed her city and brutally killed her lover.

Sotha Sil was there too but he barely features. Just remember the statue in the Plaza Birindsi Dorom.

Since Vivec had three shrines in the city of Vivec alone, I guess we can also get away with this:

Virtue of Wisdom
Shrine Location: Just before reaching Almalexia, on the roadside
Donation: Chitin Weapon
Story: Here Almalexia met Nerevar and told him of the portents of war
Quotation: 'Seht who is also Azura has divined for us that war is come and that the Hortator that shall deliver us shall come with a solution walking at his side.'

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:46 pm

Just had a thought. (Though admittedly for non-Seht and Ayem pilgrimages)

We could do a series of pilgrimages for the Saints, with one for each based on their 'attribute' as given in "Lives of the Saints"

Nerevar - Valor
Veloth - Daring
Rilms - Generosity
Aralor - Respect
Seryn - Mercy
Felms - Justice
Roris - Pride
Olms - Law
Delyn - Benevolence
Meris - Peace
Llothis - Reverance

A bit of overlap with Seven Graces, but that's eleven pilgrimages right there, and inspiration is fairly easy from that book, as it tends to mention what earned them their sainthood.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:57 pm

I think that's a fairly good one, and could come in a bit later, or perhaps just as a sidequest for anyone, even if you aren't in the temple.

Thing is that logically some would be on Vvardenfel.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:11 pm

No trouble as far as I'm concerned not having the saint's shrines on Vv. I don't think it will occur to players, and I like the idea.

Jale, I think the two you have are good. I'd like the rest to be a bit away from Almalexia (the city), because I don't want to have them all two close too the city. I'm particularly interested in ideas for Map 1 and 2.

A site I know about: On map 2 there is a great cavern of water falls that can serve as a pilgrimage site. There is currently a placeholder shrine at this location, it needs a developed back-story for the pilgrimage site.

-Starcrunch

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Well there can be a couple in the city, since there were two practically in sight of each other in Vivec (outside the temple and at the top of the palace steps) not to mention the one beneath the player's feet in the Puzzle Canal.

Virtue of Purity
Location: Waterfall cavern in map 2
Donation: Stoneflower Petals
Story: Here Almalexia came to wash the blood of war from her flesh after battles
Quotation: 'For as the waters rinse the blood of the unrighteous from my skin, their souls shall forever be lost.'

Virtue of Beauty
Location: A high hill overlooking the sea of dreams (6-32-Ind)
Donation: Coda Flower
Story: Here Almalexia comes to stand and minister her mastery of the stars
Quotation: 'The brightest and most beautiful diamonds of the night are more cherished than the greatest gems'

Virtue of Mercy
Location: Up in the north west near Skyrim
Donation: Bonemeal
Story: Here Almalexia stopped the army from desecrating the bodies of nords, and had them given a decent burial
Quotation: 'For though they have wounded you gravely, bear that we are not barbarians, and shall return their dead whole'

Virtue of Wisdom
Shrine Location: Just before reaching Almalexia, on the roadside
Donation: Chitin Weapon
Story: Here Almalexia met Nerevar and told him of the portents of war
Quotation: 'Seht who is also Azura has divined for us that war is come and that the Hortator that shall deliver us shall come with a solution walking at his side.'

Virtue of Bravery
Shrine Location: Hilltop overlooking Almalexia
Donation: Daedra Heart
Story: Here Almalexia and Sotha Sil challenged the Daedra Mehrunes Dagon as he stood over the ruined Mournhold. The blows dealt in the battle were so great that even the immortals felt them pierce deeply.
Quotation: 'Daedra, you cannot be slain, but this shall be your undoing. By dawn you shall know horrific justice that even your depravity cannot match.'

Virtue of Power
Shrine Location: Anywhere we want
Donation: Kwama Egg
Story: Here Almalexia came into existance
Quotation: 'insert strange creation myth here'

Virtue of Faith
Shrine Location: Yantus Point
Donation: Dreugh Wax
Story: Here Almalexia 'created' Vivec in the netchiman's wife and cast her into the sea for the dreugh
Quotation: 'For while what I do seems cruel, by my faith I know that good shall come of this'

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:06 pm

I don't know where people got the idea that the TR temple would be split into factions based around one god. What was meant was simply that some Temples would put such priority on Almalexia that you would have to do "her pilgrimmage". It's really just a case of balancing the Temple away from Vivec.

Jale: those seem very nice.

Anybody got ideas for Sil?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:12 pm

Well its simply due to the fact that three monomaniacal gods (well...make that two and a recluse) are going to have a bit of their own style of things, which explains why on Vvardenfell Vivec is pretty much seen as 'God' while Almalexia takes on a far more distant, motherly role. In Mournhold however Vivec was the distant warrior, and Almalexia was 'God'.

More of a societal issue rather than a question of purpose: people have preferences, even within polytheistic religions.

With regards to Seht, I still think they should be rather off the beaten track and esoteric, and the book should be hard to come by, and not give you the exact locations, only better directions.

The Merit of Reliability
Location: A Back alley in Almalexia or in a garden, behind a bush
Donation: A potion of restore health
Story: Here Sotha Sil tended the wounds of Almalexia after the battle of Mournhold
Quotation: 'Sister, you are gravely wounded, but I shall see to it that no more harm come to you, for in your hour of need, I am at your side.'

The Merit of Ingenuity
Location: 1-17-Tel at the end of the long peninsula
Donation: Scrap Metal
Story: Here Sotha Sil conducted the attack of mechanical dreugh upon the dwemer
Quotation: 'Forth, constructs. Your flesh is their flesh, your soul of the same value. Rend their leather veins and brass bones.'

The Merit of Contemplation
Location: 1-2-Tel at the very north of the Island
Donation: heather
Story: Here Sotha Sil came to ponder while looking out upon the seas
Quotation: 'Reflections upon the minds eye, and visions abounded. From depths I see clearly, and through mist I pierce.'

The Merit of Vision
Location: Firemoth Archipelago
Donation: Netch Leather
Story: Here Sotha Sil revealed to the netchiman's wife that she would bear a god
Quotation: 'I am the Clockwork Lord of the Three in One. In you is an egg of my brother-sister, who holds ineffable knowledge of words and blades, which you shall nurture until the Hortator comes.'

[/b]

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:15 pm

Sotha Sil could have one where he comforted the Chimer after Azura cursed them into the Dunmer by taking their form. Might be at Old Ebonheart.

There is also the Dwemer ruin one suggested earlier.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:45 pm

Seht doesn't seem to be the comforty type. He was however based at Old Ebonheart at the end of the 1st Era. However, I'm not entirely sure what state Old Ebonheart was in at the time.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:11 pm

I know the one about almalexia coming into existence isn't possible, because she was born of 99 mothers at one of those mountains in Molag Amur. The netchiman's wife one might also be on Vvardenfell.

As to the rest of them: They're all totally boring. Which makes them wrong, according to "lore." They need pizzazz, you know. And they're not new. This is actually your chance to make something up and you'd better take it.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:22 pm

The Pilgrimages of the Seven Graces were dull too. Thus they are logical. Besides, these are the introductions. The original fun ones (walking on hot coals crossed my mind) come later, as with how Beth did it.

Also they are only boring if you don't read the interesting books that go with them, which we haven't written yet.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:44 pm

I'm with Jale on this one, though I remain a bit skeptical about the writing of these books.

-Starcrunch

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:59 pm

I suppose we could replace Ayem's birth with my Foresight shrine (that's going to be in map 1 whether you like it or not, seeing as its also going to be one of the 'generic' initiation pilgrimages)? (Summoning of Underking, can be seen at start of thread)

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:05 pm

Go for it TBC.

And remember:

Sub-Principle of the First Principle of Lore - Alien in excess is mundane.

So if these are dull it will make the alien ones later far more interesting.

The only problem with 'Foresight' is that it implies prophesy, which invariably is Sotha Sil's domain. I would rather it be called prudence or something.