Gender Identiy and Sex in the Yoku Temple System

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:13 pm

Taking a cue from The Decadence of Fanta, I thought I would begin a new thread concerning gender bending, hermaphroditism, and prostitution in the Temples. So here's my idea, tell me what you think. As hermaphroditism is quite rare I would assume that the Redguard would consider it sacred as it is the unification of the two halves male/female, active/passive, yin/yang. So perhaps the High Priests of the Temples could either be true hermaphrodites or gender benders. As for clothing, perhaps a more Africanized garb such as a golden sheathe,naked (possibly tattooed) breasts, and perhaps an outer robe of linen with some sacred scene embroidered into it. In Morwha's cult, temple prostitution seems a perfect choice. I say add a mesh of a footprint with the words "Follow Me" in Yoku, which can be placed on the streets or roads of towns which guide the NPC to Morwha's temples. Again that may seem bizarre but in most love-god religions, prostitution is seen as sacrifice to the diety and not a perversion. That's pretty much it. Discuss.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:27 pm

while I like it on a conceptual level- I'm not sure how it will play out ingame. Will herm. priests come across as odd mysical anomolies or will it have an unintended comical effect.

As for the prostitution, that's okay- but it all has to be pg13.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:48 pm

prostitution? yes. perfect examplification of M's sexy side. if a child was born off the union, that could go to the mother side of M... but i think thats pushing it.

hemaphrodism? no. simply put, i just dont like the idea. the yoku religion does not seem to place much emphasis on male/female and the equality jaz. not to mention that its too much work to pull of in game, and that hemaphrodites are too rare.

African garb? hm, i supose a bit more africany but i have a soft spot for the concepts of priest garb i did (mah, bias). i dont mind linen, not too sure about the embroydery however. maybe you should do a quick sketch of what you mean? im just not seeing it.

footprint... hm, maybe not just to the temple of morwha. some kind of sign pointing pilgrims i do like however. mayhaps something along the lines of lute's litle dude statues? the footprint isent too bad of an idea though.

_____

anyhow, here is what im throwing into the convo. a while back i alredy talked about the physical apprance of priests, but i will restate. me thinkes that the priests should look different from teh common man even when not serving. custom hairtypes, something realy pimp preferably, defining the rank of the priest (lower ranks could have the egyptian sideways braid with a shaved head for example). all priests shouls have heavily lines eyes wich is easy to do with the CS but would still set them appart.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:06 pm

I remember seeing screens of cross-dressing Redguard priests in Daggerfall.

Hermaphroditism is too much bother for something nobody will even care about.

Prostitution sounds alright.

I don't think we should Africanise too much. The Redguards really need to be more unique if we want Hammerfell to shine. The last thing we want is bland cliche (read: Cyrodiil)

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed May 09, 2007 10:05 pm

@ Lady N
I mean like this:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k315/Hemitheon/scan0002.jpg

Now this is my first concept art for Tamriel so everyone be nice. See how the backside of the robe has embroidered panels of religious scenes? The front skirt part is just crap I threw in which should be replaced with some Yoku phrase or whatever.

PS Im not a great drawer I know

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:05 pm

I actualy really like the look of that- though it's pretty creepy.

The style of the tatooing actualy fits pretty well with my satakal devotee concepts:
[url=http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanaticcolor9cz.jpg][img]http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9444/fanaticcolor9cz.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan1qg.jpg][img]http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/6546/scan1qg.th.jpg[/img][/url]
Though I intended those to be paint- not tatoos.

Another argument against herm. priests is that that sort of excludes the player from becomeing the head of the Yoku church.

I love the footprint idea- by the way, it's very tantilizing. "follow me"

PS- In priestly garb, while we are on the subject, I also did this:
http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yyyyyvy3.jpg

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:17 pm

Me like. Does this mean the NPC can finally own idols? I love it. Lady N's argument that it's too rare and your argument that it excludes the NPC have converted me. Mind you what if you're an Orc? How can an orc become "primate" of a Yoku Temple considering their history?

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu May 10, 2007 3:29 am

For the sake of beating a dead horse, I'll cast another vote against the hermaphrodite idea. It's been done with Vivec, and I don't think we need to do it again.
As for the priestly garb, I'd like to see some masks. Something similar to the masks that Lute's Yoku god concepts wear, but shaped so that they leave the jaw uncovered. The Ra Gada are many things, but humble generally is not one of them, and I feel that wearing their god's likeness as a mask has just the right touch of bizarre.
For their clothing, some sort of sleeveless robe with embroidered Yoku script on them would fit the bill quite nice.
Prostitutes are a quandry. I feel that if we are going to have temple whores, we should not have an academy for them somewhere else. Prostitution should be viewed either as a religious thing or a social thing, but not as both. Having temple-ordained hookers would give them a spiritual feel, while having the prostitute's university would give them a professional feel, and the two conflict to the point where I don't see them both co-existing in Redguard culure.
Also, I don't see why the player should be able to join the Yoku temple. We couldn't join the Imperial Cult, why would the Yoku temple accept us?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:05 am

Hermaphroditism is the state of being completely male and completely female, which is of course not naturally possible. Ansu-Gurleht, the God of Makes Us Woman, is one. What ou actually mean is either intersex conditions or transsexualism Very different things and I don't know which you are talking about.

Prostitution would be acceptable in Hammerfell; it's a perfectly fair way to earn money. I don't really see Morwha's temple engaging in the selling of sexual favors, though. While they certainly have no vow of chastity, and definitely have a sexual rituals of some kind, they probably have something similar to the vow of poverty and require financing from the donations of the pious.

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:54 am

So what is dominant hammerfellian cultures take on gender norms, sexuality norms? and sexual/sexuality and gender equality? Any ideas?

Sload said some where that they were good on the sexuality front of equality but what about the others? what gendered expectations, and scripts? any ideas?

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:33 am

I agree with what Sload and Dexter have said already.
Concerning 'gender inequality' (in the TES universe, that means IIRC certain classes are restricted to only one gender) there should be very little of it. Looking at the class list in the MW TES construction set, I saw only two women only classes.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:04 pm

@ Sload I mean intersexualism in the form of true hermaphroditism or lateral hermaphroditism and not pseudohermaphroditism. Those are big words.

As for women-only classes, should prostitution be one of them?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu May 10, 2007 2:10 pm

Fair: They're accepting.

Hemmy: Absolutely 100% not.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Thu May 10, 2007 6:46 pm

dont leave us ladie's out

no body said that the prostitue school thing (still dont have a good word for this) aint a religious temple to morwha. but i do agree, pushing too much sex into the culture would probably set it too far appart from cyrodiil. i would prefer to leave it as a socialy acceptable way to earn money but not religious if i had to pick.

all for the masks.

PS> i was actualy watching a show on the discovery health chanel about some real hemaphroditic baby. it had both male and female organs and everything. AND it was black

(as in african-american)

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:14 pm

I once read that the incidence of hermaphoditism IRL is only slightly lower (several promille) than the incidence of Down Syndrome, that's an interesting thought, as I see people who have that quite often.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:18 pm

i think it depends on how developed the disorder is. its easier to see if somebody has down, but hemaphrodism has many different stages me thinks. i may be wrong, im basing 60% of this on TV shows

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:28 pm

I've read that the true 50/50 hermaphodites are very rare, but that doesn't mean that the others aren't entitled to bear the name.
The ancient Romans adored them, and so did Europeans in the sixteenth century (or was it the seventeenth?).
In Morrowind they worship Vivec.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:24 pm

Many native americans also revered them as mystics. They also beleived that efeminate gay men were mystics too. The chief known as crazy horse was wedded to one.

ps. most modern day herm.s are pushed one way or the other with hormones and surgery.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:18 pm

Many modern day people with intersex conditions take offense at the word hermaphrodite.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:00 am

Really? I thought it was the technical term. Well, at least I found out before I offendend someone.

The more you know

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:10 am

I kinda said it up there, you know.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:22 am

well I didnt understand your comment to mean that it was offensive- only misleading. But, now I understand.

For anyone else intersted in learning a few more facts about intersexuals as I was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexual

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Fri May 11, 2007 2:54 pm

Sload wrote:Many modern day people with intersex conditions take offense at the word hermaphrodite.

In ten years I'm sure they'll supposedly take offense at the term intersexual or feel misrepresented by it, as has happened with other minorities. Or maybe they won't, but whoever makes up this PC-terms will simply come up with something new.
Won't you apologize ten years in advance, Sload?
Or do you think that's silly? I do.

To quote a certain song:

Your life is a sham 'til you can shout out loud
I am what I am...

To return to the topic IRL religions, of which the merits and ills we are not free to discuss, usually have 'special' holy people who are deviant for the sexual norm. Celibacy is the example that lies closest to home for most of us, but it get's a lot more deviant.

I feel TR has to pick a way of living holy to the Yoku gods, that fits with the Lore and the concepts that we have already.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:52 pm

As I said before, there is no such thing as hermaphroditism. It's a state of being completely male and completely female, evident only in the Circle Talker and similar divine beings.

Anyways, the ragu don't give six half shits about what kind of sex you have. They might have a problem with dandies, though.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun May 13, 2007 11:47 am

Sload wrote: Anyways, the ragu don't give six half shits about what kind of sex you have. They might have a problem with dandies, though.

I sense it has to do with the profession said dandies have.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:15 pm

Sload wrote:As I said before, there is no such thing as hermaphroditism. It's a state of being completely male and completely female, evident only in the Circle Talker and similar divine beings.

What about Eunuchs. I think eunuchs would be very appropriate for this area in courts and suchforth. Its not too hard to make an effeminate looking man, and if their is a dialogue where they might explain their 'predicament' then it would be interesting.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:40 pm

Poor Jale, I never replied. I am such a mean guru.

The problem is the ragu have a big problem with wimps. As long as the eunuch could be effeminate and not wimpy no one would give a shit.

dragonreborn2k6 · Post by **dragonreborn2k6** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:16 pm

Sload wrote:Hermaphroditism is the state of being completely male and completely female, which is of course not naturally possible. Ansu-Gurleht, the God of Makes Us Woman, is one. What ou actually mean is either intersex conditions or transsexualism Very different things and I don't know which you are talking about.

Prostitution would be acceptable in Hammerfell; it's a perfectly fair way to earn money. I don't really see Morwha's temple engaging in the selling of sexual favors, though. While they certainly have no vow of chastity, and definitely have a sexual rituals of some kind, they probably have something similar to the vow of poverty and require financing from the donations of the pious.

Maybe the sex would be really weird, and therefore not many would pay for it, unless they believed in the temple. Maybe there could be something like a mass orgy instead of Sunday school. Maybe the followers have to do strange sexual things as atonement for not following church practice (including parading about the city with nothing on but some painted yoku symbols for x days)
all in all, I think public prostitution as a means of supporting the temple is not a bad idea at all. The unique things happen to those who join the temple. Maybe those who join must sell their bodies in order to show their devotion.