Models needed for Morrowind

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:31 pm

Could retextured necrom models also work or not? Or are they just retextured velothi models?

xeth-ban · Post by **xeth-ban** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:28 pm

Blackbird;
Some are just retextured Velothi, other are new meshes.
Making retextured versions to go with Dres is a good idea....

Also, we should look at the Old Mournhold architecture to, as that may show a bit of some old dunmeri architecture.

And about the Necrom meshes....Apart from some few things here and there, isn't that one about ready? it shouldn't take to long, i think.

We should focus on the Necrom set first, just to get it finished. And then continue on with Dres.(IMO)

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:07 pm

xeth-ban wrote: As for the monolith stuff Jale came up with, wasn't that part of the reason the previous Dres set got dropped? because some people for some reason thought that the buildings looked like spaceships and that kind of thing?

I joined post-Dres-fiasco, but I thought it was due to issues of plagarism or somesuch.

Also I don't mean bricks, I mean rendered plaster, sort of like the beige stuff you have all over Hlaalu and Velothi architecture, but Reddish, like how the indoril stuff is greenish.

It really was just a spur of the moment concept, but don't discount elements of the design based on a couple of features: I really think the Cantons should be lots of houses crammed into bath-tub like platforms, with a heavy influence from the stronghold architecture. Towns could also be like this...walled, retextured Stronghold platforms, with retextured velothi packed inside. I think a good theme for the dres set would be very claustraphobic outdoor spaces, but spacious interiors, showing a selfishness.

xeth-ban · Post by **xeth-ban** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:10 pm

Ah, i agree then....Though i would preffer a white/grey/black colour theme for Dres

What you described sounded good though

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:33 pm

Dres-velothi house concept:
[url=http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?19669441df.jpg][img]http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.19669441df.jpg[/img][/url]
This one was made just using pieces from the siltstrider. If we could get bits from the shalk, the riverstrider, the 4 beetles, the sky render, the parastylus, etc, we would be able to have a large degree of variety. On the subject of different actual building, perhaps our dres versions of the velothi meshes, as well as being retextured, could have a different dome. (A pointy one would fit in more with Dres, imo)
There are a number of pieces that I would like to see re-made with Dres versions. (could just be a retex) These include:
ex_ashl_tent_03
ex_ashl_tent_04
furn_de_overhang (set)
ex_velothi_hilltent_01
With a unified look, these would be great together. The more difficult option for changing these would be to replace the cloth with insect body bits, but this would look incredible. The easy one would simply be to make a new texture for the cloth.
Nalin: I can see we're on the same wavelength. I was planning to do something similar with the siltstrider

The riverstrider and possibly the sky render could also be adapted to make such buildings. (Perhaps with sufficient adaptation, these could be made into Dres versions of the standard dunmer shacks; all we would have to do is to make sure that they roughly fit the same footprint, then just search & replace)

Tear will have a canton for the slave dealers, which will be just beside the harbor. I'm planning for it to be mostly slave pits and slums, with all the "decent folk" on an island.

We also need a full set of banners and other paraphenalia. Does anybody know for sure what the Dres colour is? One source says grey, one says blue.

On the topic of Necrom, Veet has the meshes nearly ready, but he seems to have disappeared :/

xeth-ban · Post by **xeth-ban** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:49 pm

The Redguard comic says grey, TR says blue, i think.
Personally i think Blue fits much better than grey

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Wed May 30, 2007 5:01 pm

I like the house very much. Easily identifiably different to Velothi. Question is, how much trouble is it to stick all those bits on there? Might in fact be more trouble than creating a whole new version that can just be search and replaced (but I wouldn't know, being ye humble quester)?

Either way, with a good re-tex (to a darker stonework, I think) that'll be sweetness incarnate.

Finally, when we get these Dres cities done (far, far future, I know), can we have the mounted guards (perhaps with an anim fix, as I suggested earlier) replace the normal foot troops? With a bit of scripting, I'd have thought we could get 'em acting as guards. (Using a 'dummy' NPC who is ForceGreeted when the creature gets near enough for a normal guard FG. The only problem is getting them back to their original post.) Either way, the more those menacing Skyrenders get to hang 'round Dres cities, the more happy a bunny (or voracious a crustacean) I am.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:07 pm

Lud - that mockup screenshot really is along the lines of what I was thinking when you mentioned "dres adornments"

Ludovic wrote: If we could get bits from the shalk, the riverstrider, the 4 beetles, the sky render, the parastylus, etc, we would be able to have a large degree of variety.

Sounds like the right way to go - I'm very into this idea.

Ludovic wrote: On the subject of different actual building, perhaps our dres versions of the velothi meshes, as well as being retextured, could have a different dome. (A pointy one would fit in more with Dres, imo)

I'm not feeling the pointiness - It'd really clash with the rounded bug bits

Ludovic wrote: There are a number of pieces that I would like to see re-made with Dres versions. (could just be a retex) These include:
ex_ashl_tent_03
ex_ashl_tent_04
furn_de_overhang (set)
ex_velothi_hilltent_01
With a unified look, these would be great together. The more difficult option for changing these would be to replace the cloth with insect body bits, but this would look incredible.

I'll take the overhangs and the hilltent

Ludovic wrote: Nalin: I can see we're on the same wavelength. I was planning to do something similar with the siltstrider The riverstrider and possibly the sky render could also be adapted to make such buildings. (Perhaps with sufficient adaptation, these could be made into Dres versions of the standard dunmer shacks; all we would have to do is to make sure that they roughly fit the same footprint, then just search & replace)

I know I already made a concept of a big "hall" kind of dres building out of a Siltstrider shell - but I really don't think we should have too many of them. Dres use the bugparts like Norwegians use antlers - as decorations and adornments - It's also a kind of status symbol...not something that i think would work as a shack (shacks being the low class house).

Ludovic wrote: Does anybody know for sure what the Dres colour is? One source says grey, one says blue.

Greyish blue then?

xeth-ban · Post by **xeth-ban** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:08 pm

A greyish blue, much like the colour of the Dres extravagant shirt is what should be used, IMO.

And bug carapace like the silt strider should be reserved for the upper classes, the nobles and merchants who buy, and the warriors and stuff that kills them....

What i would like to see would be a huge version of the ashlander bug shields, with some changes so the textures won't look blurry. Would certainly add some colour

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:09 pm

Balsan Mar, Corkarah Rhun, Ald Dwerelyn and Ald Rotanir has already been redone by Poha, Theo and me.
All are finished or quite.
Silnime Dale is in the hand of Thrignar.
I suppose that i forgot some cities but the work is advanced enough to definitively choice the addon system.

A good idea could be to make this addon set in function of the work already done.(look at the pics)
Some of the meshes needed are technical elements because of the specificity of the Velothi set who is not a complete one. But we need also elements of communications, like stairs, bridges... And, the addon one for the style.

And i'm against any kind of non modular meshes just done for one use, look at the big Velothi temple.

PS: Lud where is your pic?

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:15 pm

I like Jale's idea, but I like to see them build up a bit more. The cramped enviroment described would be wrong for such a sweltering city like Tear. However it will only work in Tear because most other cities have been done in Velothi. We can't talk about changing the whole setup unless we contemplate another Dres settlement redo. I think doing something that can just be used as a replacer set should be the way to go, without just sticking bug pieces into velothi homes which seems kinda slip-shod imo. Thats just what I'd like to see as an exterior person. I can throw in my two cents but I'm not in the modelling business (that sounds wierd...) so I shall use what I am given. Lets just make sure it looks good.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:17 pm

Hmm... I'm not convinced on your little addons Lud. Besides the fact that it will increase the ref count of cities considerably and would be a pain in the arse to remake the Dres cities again (the practical), I just don't think the bug pieces are going to blend into the Velothi pieces at all and won't look good (the aesthetic). IMO the Dres tileset should be created at somepoint replacing the footprints of the Velothi tileset, and a simple search and replace to be done later.

Also, the Dres buildings would look better if they were two-tone - predominantly grey with blue features.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:46 pm

Will everyone stop with the 'OMGZ! THEY HAD A BUG SHED IN A REDGUARD COMIC! ALL THEIR BUILDINGZ IS BUUUUUUGZ'. It looks bad. Not to say its bad work, it just looks like what it is: bug bits added onto a building. All the comic tells us is that there are bug buildings in some places, and I for one am adamant that the unison between velothi and bug should be that they are side by side in the villages, not mashed together.

Colour scheme sounds good though.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:05 pm

Jale wrote:Will everyone stop with the 'OMGZ! THEY HAD A BUG SHED IN A REDGUARD COMIC! ALL THEIR BUILDINGZ IS BUUUUUUGZ'

No one said that.

The Redguard comic doesn't even show the city of Tear. I think we should build the slave camp as it is in the comic though (with a few extra buildings around the edges) - somewhere outside of the city.

The Dres decorate thier homes with "Trophys" - thier equivalant of a mounted deer head is a bug carapace. Too much bug-ish stuff mixed with the retex velothi would clash, that's true - but I'm talking an awning here and a hanging there and not on every building. Nothing that would slow down the fps. Nothing unfitting.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:25 pm

Blue and grey velothi replacers placed into canton/pyramid/bathtubs. Open air terraced cantons are great because they're open to the air and they've got lots of water (think Vivec, remember all the waterspouts) which is great in the hot humid enviroment of the south. We've got all the pieces already, or the basis for a few new ones, all they need are to be done in a Dres color-themed texture. The city idea is ultimately up to Lud because he's doing Tear, and I think most of the other settlements are already done, but I can't think of a better idea for a Dres specific set.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:21 am

Nalin wrote:
No one said that.

*takes Nalin's Exaggeration-Detector-5000*

*opens battery case*

*replaces batteries*

There, should work now.

I just do not think that sticking bug bits to the exteriors would work. Trophies inside, yes. Trophies in gardens, yes. Actual physical exterior attachments, no.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:29 pm

He, Jale, lower a bit the sound, it's not helping.
(PS: the first nowned cities of humanity was in bricks. rfc: Uruk or Susa and personaly i prefer Paris in stones than London in bricks. That was the wiki-minute)

The questions are, what we want and what we are able to.

My preference go to a comlete set, but,
who will do it,
the experience has proven the risks to follow this way, in is great wisdom the Core decided not to do it.
End.

Option,
The easiest, retexturing, that's Ok for me, anyway like wrot Nomadic, for technical reasons, modders need meshes for the Velothi set, neutral ones we could use for both houses. My preference goes to a blue-grey, deep and dark.

The other one, an addon system,
why must it be a bad otion? All set uses modular elements, that's never have been a problem, the point is to decid what's suitable or not.
I don't like the Trophie too, but real architectural Ext elements could give to the set a little touch.
The easiest is to stay with isolated meshes like stairs...
Then, adding, little archi to the buildings, windows, anythings for light and banners...
Then, the most difficult, real archi elements, balconies, shap to change and cover the roofs, walls...

The last one possibility is full of ambush, but the others are easy (to integrate)because they just create non structurals elements or quite.

One thing nobody discuss about, this problem of references nomadic has speak about, what's the opinion of the guys in charge?

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:01 pm

That really is beside the point, but I was looking at the perspective of British architecture, where bricks came after stone.

Addons are not a bad option, adding bug parts on is.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:46 pm

To Jale,
The meaning was: listen before shouting.
Especially when you are not the guy who will use the set.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:03 pm

Nomadic1 wrote:Hmm... I'm not convinced on your little addons Lud. Besides the fact that it will increase the ref count of cities considerably and would be a pain in the arse to remake the Dres cities again (the practical), I just don't think the bug pieces are going to blend into the Velothi pieces at all and won't look good (the aesthetic). IMO the Dres tileset should be created at somepoint replacing the footprints of the Velothi tileset, and a simple search and replace to be done later.

Also, the Dres buildings would look better if they were two-tone - predominantly grey with blue features.

It won't involve a major remake of the cities, no more than a half-hour of work per city.
On the frame-rate front, remember that these would largely be replacing the standard overhangs, etc.
As far as the aesthetic goes, I'd like to see how Nalin manages before deciding that it doesn't look right. (He's kinda good at what he does ;P )

Jale wrote:Will everyone stop with the 'OMGZ! THEY HAD A BUG SHED IN A REDGUARD COMIC! ALL THEIR BUILDINGZ IS BUUUUUUGZ'.

1) nobody said that
2) the redguard comic is our only source for Dres architecture.

Jale wrote:It looks bad. Not to say its bad work, it just looks like what it is: bug bits added onto a building. All the comic tells us is that there are bug buildings in some places, and I for one am adamant that the unison between velothi and bug should be that they are side by side in the villages, not mashed together.

That was a concept that I threw together in five minutes. Wait to see what Nalin comes up with.

xeth-ban wrote: What i would like to see would be a
huge version of the ashlander bug shields, with some changes so the textures won't look blurry. Would certainly add some colour

Which shields are these?
In general, I think that retextured ashlander stuff would merge well with Dres things. We can view ashlanders as "old-school dunmer/chimer". The Dres are closest to these traditions, so they could share some aesthetics with them.

kebra wrote: PS: Lud where is your pic?

[url=http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?19669441df.jpg]Link here[/url]

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu May 31, 2007 3:17 pm

Ludovic wrote:Which shields are these?
In general, I think that retextured ashlander stuff would merge well with Dres things. We can view ashlanders as "old-school dunmer/chimer". The Dres are closest to these traditions, so they could share some aesthetics with them.

Not shields per sÃƒÂ©, they are just bug shells that are shield shaped (and that's the only real conceivable use as far as I'm aware, even though they're not usable in-game) and strewn around Ashlander camps. Pretty much every camp has one, it shouldn't be hard to locate 'em.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:30 pm

Well, the lazy person in me wants at most some addons to the velothi set, however if the new set is made well and all inclusive I am sure I could remake what I have done now. If you can find willing modelers, then I am all for it, just please don't distract the ones modeling Rihad.

To be clear: I am up for either one, so base your decision on modeling man power, also, please don't distract from Rihad.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:25 pm

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:
Ludovic wrote:Which shields are these?
Not shields per sÃƒÂ©, they are just bug shells that are shield shaped (and that's the only real conceivable use as far as I'm aware, even though they're not usable in-game) and strewn around Ashlander camps. Pretty much every camp has one, it shouldn't be hard to locate 'em.

It sounds to me like the shields in question are infact bowls...not a very exciting post - but there you go.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:37 pm

Will people stop taking my obvious exaggeration as a serious comment?

I just think that no matter how you cut it, awnings made of bug bits aren't going to look good.

Logic and creativity are also our sources for dres architecture, as well as the literature quotes I found. A couple of frames of an old comic are not enough to extrapolate a house-wide bug fetish from. Its just as reasonable to say that those bug houses are a peculiarity of slave traders, as they look like they could be folded up and moved around, like a high-class yurt.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:42 pm

Jale wrote: A couple of frames of an old comic are not enough to extrapolate a house-wide bug fetish from.

All native Dunmer have a very strong connection with the bugs around them - The ones that hold traditional dunmeri values/customs close moreso - but none moreso than the Dres. Sky renders are a unique and powerful symbol of Great House Dres.
Hence the buggish talk.

Jale wrote: Its just as reasonable to say that those bug houses are a peculiarity of slave traders, as they look like they could be folded up and moved around, like a high-class yurt.

I don't think so - folding up an exoskeleton doesn't sound do-able to me.

Ludovic wrote: ...As far as the aesthetic goes, I'd like to see how Nalin manages before deciding that it doesn't look right...

I've been playing around in 3ds max, blender, and my sketchbook and - It doesn't look right.
El Scumbago told me he wanted to design a "look" for Dres architecture inspired by my dres armour - I want to see what he comes up with as I really liked the "old dres" look and most of my designs seem to mirror that. I think that if we can - we should have a very distinct look for them - it would look odd without one compared to the other Houses.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:08 pm

They have a strong connection to bugs because that's a very prevalent type of animal there. From Nix hounds to Silt Striders, from Wasps to Shalk. However I wouldn't say its any more prevalent than our connection to large mammals, and just because I might ride a horse, drink cows milk and view lions as a think of power, doesnt mean im going to build my house with bits of bones hanging off the walls.

Folding up a segmented exoskeleton is very doable, as that is the point of a segmented exoskeleton.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:36 pm

I'm already bugging my way through the Dres set. Stay tuned.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:51 pm

Jale wrote:They have a strong connection to bugs because that's a very prevalent type of animal there. From Nix hounds to Silt Striders, from Wasps to Shalk. However I wouldn't say its any more prevalent than our connection to large mammals, and just because I might ride a horse, drink cows milk and view lions as a think of power, doesnt mean im going to build my house with bits of bones hanging off the walls.

No - but if you'd been chased around your town by a lion who wanted to kill you but you killed it you'd probably want to let people know about it and chances are you'd want to display your "token of prowess".
It is more prevalent than our connection to large mammals. Take African tribesmen for example - it's kind of a respect thing and kind of a show-off thing.

Jale wrote:Folding up a segmented exoskeleton is very doable, as that is the point of a segmented exoskeleton.

The point of an exoskeleton is to be folded? You'd dismantle or separate the sections of a segmented exoskeleton - It could be done though, it's an interesting idea.

I'm looking forward to seeing how others invisage House Dres architecture - especially since other modders have expressed willingness to re-do areas with a new set (abeit with velothi footprints).

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:02 pm

My personal thoughts on how bugs should be used in the architecture:

As small housing
In place of statues outside large houses
In place of yurts
Inside as ornamentation

Easiest place to change the architecture would be the roof. Perhaps adding a step-pyramid-esque 'hat' consisting of two extra steps would make the houses look different. The doors could also be squared off somewhat.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:03 pm

From my point of view there are four alternatives:

1)Use current Velothi set without change:
While this would be the most convenient way (and I am sure the current set has a lot of untapped potential) I agree that Dres would deserve some more distinguishing elements.

2)Do retexture:
I see no gain in this. Just using different colours will not give unique feeling to Dres cities. Either make different models or do not bother. As for the argument that Dres native colour is blue or gray - do you have Telvanni, Redoran or Hlaalu builidings made in house colours as well?

3)Go adddon-way:
Why not - if there is real need, good concepts and devote modellers. And this must not necessarily be bug shells. Personally I would like to see some bridges, archways, manors with atriums, pools, arenas, balconies, addons, canals, but even some completely new multistore buildings. But I am afraid there is no way how to use them reasonably in current version of Corkarah Rhun. Perhaps other modders who remade some Dres cities could come up with Ideas, but I like Corkarah Rhun just the way it is now (I know it is a bit stupid, when I say this.)

4)Create entirely new set:
It would be beyond TR modellers capabilities. Not only entirely new set of exterior and interior models would have to be made, but also lot of replacing would have to be done. And personally I would like to see Necrom put back together first.

I would go for option 3, but only if I see some really nice concepts.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:19 pm

Well the other house colours are pretty neutral anyway...there are a few bits of red trim on redoran buildings, hlaalu ones are pretty yellow-ish and telvanni ones do have brown in places...if you consider Indoril's colour as green then I suppose there is a fair bit of house colour to architecture.

A lot of the difference could be interior work. We haven't considered extensive underground differences. For larger buildings, expanding down so that each house is like a tower sunken into the ground could be interesting.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:12 pm

Step-pyramid-esque. I like this idea of tweaking existing velothi pieces and concepts and I can stress it no more. It can probably be done with existing pieces anyway but I'd like to see some new things because there are unique sets for every other faction in the game (great house, temple, imperial) and I'd like to see it done in a new way.

I had an idea a minute ago I also wanted to share. Because of the terrain of most House Dres territory (jungly swamp) why not lean it towards an Aztec/Mayan feel? Use velothi because it matches the blocky pyramidal architecture, add some new things for flavor and feeling, organic things like bug carapaces would work great.

xeth-ban · Post by **xeth-ban** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:05 am

Theo wrote: 2)Do retexture:
I see no gain in this. Just using different colours will not give unique feeling to Dres cities. Either make different models or do not bother. As for the argument that Dres native colour is blue or gray - do you have Telvanni, Redoran or Hlaalu builidings made in house colours as well?

Thats not true, i use a lot of textures in my game, and it often changes the feel quite a lot....
Personally,i think a Velothi set using the colour schemes of the ditched Dres set would look good.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:26 am

Here's a wacky idea: perhaps like House Telvanni, they do not use stairs. This would make it easier to keep slaves, as they would be trapped on one floor. Houses could be built around a central shaft, like a very tall atrium, with reception areas higher up and rooms branching off.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:06 am

They're not wizards like the Telvanni though, how are they going to move about themselves? Might be an idea for slave holding pens perhaps, but little else, I'd have thought.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:29 am

They aren't as wizardy, but in the wizard stakes I would say they are second, behind Telvanni. My scale of most to least wizardy:

Tevlanni - Dres - Hlaalu - Indoril - Redoran

So I think a levitation-oriented architecture would be fine.

Saves having to build ugly slave pens everywhere.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:33 am

I kinda thought they were Hlaalu-esque businessmen, only far more traditional and not tolerant of the Empire.

In the same way the Indoril are Redoran-esque warrior types but twice as pious, and perhaps less suited to real warfare.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:58 am

In the comic it showed a Dres guy so magical that his severed hand alone was capable of blowing up a flying wasp.

Magical. Secretive. Conniving. Dres.

Also it would let us put cool mottled-glass compound windows as skylights on the houses, like big bug eyes.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:36 am

Simply adding a couple of modular statics (like different windows) will work miracles. Also, Dres seem very misantropic (as well as misbeastic and miselfic). Sacrificial pits anyone?
Arena battles between slaves and big buggies?
Slave-hunters (outlanders) for hire?
Slave-smugglers (persecuted by the Dres)?
Small blood-pools for the vamp nobility of the Dres (I want a dunmeri Lady Bathory!).
Buildings exclusive to Telvanni slave-buyers?
Pants-shitted Imperial guards?
Secret vamp-hunter bases?

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:12 pm

Jale wrote:In the comic it showed a Dres guy so magical that his severed hand alone was capable of blowing up a flying wasp.

Magical. Secretive. Conniving. Dres.

Also it would let us put cool mottled-glass compound windows as skylights on the houses, like big bug eyes.

Perhaps. The problem for me is that it would make the Dres seem like "Telvanni Mk.2" I mean, houses you need levitation to get through, slave hatin' and all that stuff. They just seem like Telvanni living in Velothi-esque buildings that way.

(And @ Scumbago, arena fight against massive bugs is a must have!

Unfortunately we don't really have any suitable bugs, but if we did: I'd be there!)