Goldmoor LC

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:18 am

Hi all.
Fairwater gave me the Rihad lower class building set assignment. Here's my first take at it. It follows the Goldmoor LC1 design by Elfane/El Scumbago fairly closely. Comments, suggestions and criticism are welcome.

The sketch doesn't show the roof, but I decided to add a depressed rooftop with a low parapet. I've also decided to combine cross-beams into support grids, they are easier to manage that way. Two closely set windows are combined in a twin frame to save some work and polies. Doors and windows are flat surfaces, let me know if blinds have to be modelled in.

Poly counts thus far:

Lower floor: 287
Upper floor (with the rooftop piece): 447
Support grid: 382 (x2)
Doorframe = Windowframe: 178 (x6)
Twin windowframe: 306
Balcony + railing: 361
Staircase: 396

Total: 3629

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sun May 20, 2007 12:25 pm

This look freaking good. If you are unsure about the rooftop, look at my concepts for the LC. The parapet should be at about waist height.

And the buildings are VERY low on polys. Good shit!

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 20, 2007 2:41 pm

I think Advary's the rightful modeller of the set. I'll work a bit extra to upload some more buildings, and I'm also making a special (rather big) one, to use in some deserted area as an inn and caravan station.

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Mon May 21, 2007 3:43 pm

That is looking Great!!! wonderfull actually.... if you want to post your max file i can go through it more throughly!!

Anyways so i guess you might want to try uvwwarping it, no?

Post by **Haplo** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:27 pm

Indeed, awesome work, Andvary

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:03 pm

Very nice work. It's work like this that is going to put TR on top of all other OB mods.

Can you also upload your max files? I want to see what I can start doing about texturing these things.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:42 pm

Definitely post a .3ds or .obj file so we can give constructive feedback. It's hard to tell from pictures

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:23 am

Sorry folks, couldn't fix it earlier. Had other stuff and work to do. Besides, when my wife discovered that I was glued to max till 6 in the morning on Saturday, she gave me looks. Had to take a break.

Here are .max and .3ds files:
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_10.max
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_10.3DS

I did some minor clean-up bringigng the total number of polygons to 3597. I'd really appreciate if you give me feedback on what exactly wasn't done quite right, for this is my first architectural model ever.

Fairwater wrote:Anyways so i guess you might want to try uvwwarping it, no?

Absolutely. The model seems simple enough to train on. I'm going to go through a tutorial on that stuff and finish things up this week.

Also, to Elfane:
Waist-high parapet seems a bit too high, I was more thinking about knee-high or some such. The roof wouldn't normally be used for anything besides sleeping, so waist-high is probably a bit excessive, no?

Fairwater · Post by **Fairwater** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:59 am

Andvary wrote:Sorry folks, couldn't fix it earlier. Had other stuff and work to do. Besides, when my wife discovered that I was glued to max till 6 in the morning on Saturday, she gave me looks. Had to take a break.

I hate that feeling, i mean it feels like i am a kid again and stole something and my parents know

Wow that model is great... my models look like messes compared to that construction. Very tidy... i couldnt find any complaints or improvements.... maybe morden will he is better at that than me. Other than all i can do is give you go ahead on UVwraping. If you have any questions by all means ask!

I guess that means that me and noir should get working on LC Textures.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:51 am

I'd prefer the parapet to be waist-high in one-floor buildings, if it's ok with Elfane. Here's a couple more, where you see the parapet's taller in the first house. We've got a total of 4 LC's now, and I'll soon complete the building set and move on to the modulars. UC's on the making as well.

P.S. Fairwater, your models rock man, believe it

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goldmoorlc3nz8.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9340/goldmoorlc3nz8.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goldmoorlc4qo4.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8833/goldmoorlc4qo4.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:15 am

OK, before I move on with UVW mapping and all, there was some stuff left out.

1. Blinds. The design specifies blinds in several door/window objects. As I'm no good at texturing, I've no idea if they can be applied later as convincingly looking textures or have to be actually modelled in. I can add them if need be, but they can be expensive in terms of poly counts.

2. The design had no chimney of any sort. How do they cook there? (Do they?) I would say, this type of architecture implies cooking in the back yard, but there isn't any in the concepts. How do we handle this?

3. Door knobs/handles. I didn't add any, although the design had them. They looked a bit too European, so I decided to wait with them. Grabbed several books on islamic arts and Indian/Persian/Iranian/Central Asian architecture to check. I have an impression that they either didn't use door-handles at all (if one doesn't consider obviously modern structures), or used rings, mainly for larger heavier doors. IMO rings fit the style better. What do you say?

4. Parapet on the roof. If it has to be waist-high for some reason, so be it. Then I guess it should be like that everywhere.
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_2.jpg
Do you still like it?

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:47 pm

1) I've been wondering about blinds myself. Leave them off for now, we might go back and add them as modular pieces later on.

2) The concepts have been looked at so many times, and as far as I can remember, there were no comments about chimneys. Again, they could be modular also, as long as the fireplace/stove on the interior is also modular.

3) I can see the LC set not having door handles. A simple latch or something to keep the door from flying open when there's a gust of wind, would do nicely.

4) I can see it being waist high or knee high. If it were knee high, the PC would be able to see some cool things going on on the roofs. The higher they are, the less can be seen (it's really up to you). I personally would like to see them just high enough so that the PC can't just walk off the roof.

4a) Also, as a side note, I'm not sure how much it's going to rain in Goldmoor, but would it be possible to put small holes in the Parapet, so that water can run off from the roof? It might also be cool (at a later time) to make a water run-off mesh to be enabled when it rains.

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Wed May 23, 2007 4:14 pm

1, Modular sounds good to me on the blinds.

2, Something that I have forgotten and is a bit ashamed of is the chimneys. Most buildings of this sort (that I have seen) just have a hole in the roof with a small egde. This could be put anywhere on the rooftop. Or we could make some Yoko God head with the smoke that comes out of the mouth. A small idea for MC and UC maybe.

3, I agree with Noir on that point.

4, The parapet. The reason that I want it waist high is that 1, you should be able to hang carpets and other stuff on it to add to the feeling of a living society. 2, The player should'nt be able to just walk out and fall down. So I suggest that If you dont like the idea of waist-high parapet. Make it so it reaches to mid-thigh height.

4a, I like the idea of small draining holes on the parapet.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:27 pm

1) How did Beth do the blinds in Anvil?
2) Small holes (perhaps standing out a bit, as tall as the parapet) is fine with me. I'll make the relevant sketches asap.
3) I don't think that door handle is much. Just an iron bar on the door. No handles? Kinda unnatural.
4) Parapets: I'd say lower than knee height for two-story buildings. Buildings that only have a ground floor can and should have accessible roofs, with a waist-high parapet.
My 2 cents.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:41 pm

not any professional, or even practical, input here. it looks better with lower parapets imho

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:13 pm

What would the parapets look knee-high, and a little thicker? The tall, thin parapets just look wrong.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed May 23, 2007 9:53 pm

I agree, making them thicker is a must. That thickness would not resist the sands of time IMO, and could crack easily if someone leaned or ran into it or fell on it or something. Other than that, maybe lower it by a third?

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:20 am

1. Blinds in Anvil are modelled. They are present in two buildings only though and go over normal window model; they are semi-transparent and don't really hide anything. Most simpler buildings there have flat wooden shatters on windows. I guess modular blinds to be added whereever necessary is a good idea. Submitted to works. ...Check...

2. Got it. I see it as a small hollow conical dome made of mudbrick. Modular, I think. ...Check...

3. Why, no handles is normal if the door is opening inwards, which seems the case for most pictures that I've seen. But anyway, I have nothing whatever against handles. Lower-class Anvil buildings (abandoned shack, harbour area) have simple small iron rings (knockers). Actually, we could just reuse those, they look OK. A latch on the outside looks kind of strange. A good practical joke comes to mind right away.

4. It doesn't look right with tall parapet, but it can be fixed. I can change dimensions a bit so that it stays proportional. Hanging carpets is an excellent decoration idea, but parapets don't have to be so high for that. A carpet is a heavy thing, it stays put no matter what you put it on.

It's not that I specifically dislike the idea, I just don't understand why like that. Tall parapet isn't right architecturally, so there must be a good reason to have it. I'm just not quite sure what's wrong with the PC being able to walk off the roof. The rooftop is a part of the exterior, right? You could walk off the roof in Morrowind. There are open balconies (accessible only from inside the building) with low railings in Cheydinhal and Skingrad, you can jump off those as much as you will. Besides, I thought the ability to climb (kind of) the roofs and jump from roof to roof could add some interesting possibilities for stealth-oriented quests. Just an idea.

Thicker parapet. Makes sense. ...Check...

4a. Drain holes. Excellent idea, I was thinking in that direction myself. Will do.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:18 am

imo, the parapet as you've modelled it in the very first pic of this thread, is great for two-story buildings.
And I love the 'jump-from-roof-to-roof' thing, that was one of the first things I thought about when imagined Hammerfell. I almost enjoyed Bravil for this reason.

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:35 am

4, Parapet and the height of it. Thicken it up, and we'll see how it looks. About the carpets, ie. if you hang a carpet on a railing you want to hang it so it is balanced 50/50. That way it does'nt fall down.
If you try to hang a carpet on an edge, say like the edge of a roof. You can't hang it without it falling down. Thats one of the reasons I want the parapet a little bit higher. Carpetwise anyway.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:25 pm

Andvary: I hope you know all this nitpicky shit is all because the meshes are near perfect, and people need to find something to bitch about. They're your models, you make the final call.

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Thu May 24, 2007 4:02 pm

Well said Noir! *clap* *clap*

Post by **Haplo** » Thu May 24, 2007 4:42 pm

Indeed, if you ever are getting way too much tiny 'fix this, nah fix that' stuff from everyone, don't hesitate to tell us to shut up

Your work is great

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:41 pm

Just make sure you tell me as well, and let me know what your final decision on a matter is, so that I properly update the 2Ds. Btw, I've wrote down the chimney thing and enlisted it for the modulars when their time comes (very soon).

Now bitch about this!

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goldmoorlc5se7.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2517/goldmoorlc5se7.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:36 am

OK, an update was in order.
I've added a few missing pieces. Namely, the chimney, knocker rings (shamelessly borrowed from Oblivion's lowerclass door mesh), and drain holes. The holes are actual holes, you can see skies through these things if the angle is right; let me know if it was a bad idea.
The parapet is now 50 cm high and about twice thicker than it was before.

This is getting pretty close to being final. If anyone has complaints of any sort, please do start bitching!

As soon as we finalise the general design, I'll move on to make the rest of the set and I'd hate to redo the whole thing later if we miss something now.

On parapet height again. It's not a question of aesthetics, it's important because it affects gameplay directly. I personally very much dislike artificial limitations to PC's freedom of movement, so I'd like to be able at least to jump over the bloody thing. If it's a bad idea for some particular reason, please let me know.

Updated scene file:
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_15.max

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat May 26, 2007 9:48 am

Looking good.

The parapets now look right in proportion to the rest of the building IMO.

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Sat May 26, 2007 1:52 pm

Hell yeah, I'm satisfied. The only thing that I am thinking about is the chimney. Unsure about the placement of it. Perhaps we could place it on the side of the builing. Would be an alien element that could work very good. And that way we dont have to think so much about interior design for the fireplace. We just have to place the fireplace on the same wall as the chimney, oppose to now when it is in the middle of the building. Just a thought.

The parapet looks great, no change is needed from my point of view. And since I am the one who have bitched about it, go!

Looking great. Otherwise. With a nice texture it will look awesome.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Sat May 26, 2007 11:58 pm

If anyone has complaints of any sort, please do start bitching!

Please post a .3ds or .obj file for those of us who do not use Max. If I can look at your building in 3D space, you'll get lots of 'bitching', or constructive criticism depending on how you look at it. Just check out Fairwater's MC set thread.

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Sun May 27, 2007 5:56 am

Morden wrote:
If anyone has complaints of any sort, please do start bitching!
Please post a .3ds or .obj file for those of us who do not use Max. If I can look at your building in 3D space, you'll get lots of 'bitching', or constructive criticism depending on how you look at it. Just check out Fairwater's MC set thread.

I'd love to get lots of whatever you call it. "Bitching" was a direct quote from Noirgrim's reply, btw, no need to get so wound up.

I'm not here to quarrel with people, you know.

Here's the mesh file:
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_16.3DS
Sorry for not uploading it promptly.

At Elfane's request I have also replaced the chimney with another one. How's this, any better?
http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1_new2.jpg

aro101 · Post by **aro101** » Sun May 27, 2007 7:54 am

IMHO this chimney really fits a LC building

And the whole mesh is also nice. Only few thingsm should be changed. Delete those faces that aren't visible for the player. Oh, and take a look on how the doors should be made

Here it is...
If you ask why, it is the polies

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:36 am

I wouldn't say 'no' to some chamfering on the edges, especially the balcony's and staircase's ones. And look at that, we had almost the same idea for the chimney, except that it'll never be placed in the center of a house, thus not in the center of a roof.

Here's one more LC house and the first modulars, with a readme txt. Do check the chimney to see what I meant above.

[url=http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goldmoorlc6ba9.jpg][img]http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/888/goldmoorlc6ba9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun May 27, 2007 8:55 am

Another idea for the chimney would be like the following code picture (from top perspective):

Code: Select all

||_____
||----.|
||    ||
||____||_
'--------
or
  ______
 |.----.|
 ||    ||
_||____||_
----------

It's a much simpler design, and could easily be made modular, but what you have looks good as it is.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:59 pm

Andvary, still working on this?

Elfane · Post by **Elfane** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:27 am

He has'nt logged in since May 28. So I say that we give Andvary another week or so before we try to get another mesher.

Scumbago, I must have missed out on the zip file you posted, saw it now. Looks great.

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:39 pm

Hi, guys.
No, I'm still on it.
I just got back from a conference (National Organic Symposium held at Duke University, Durham NC). Pretty rough two weeks... I'm polishing it over and was planning to update with some new buildings and modulars by the end of the week.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:21 pm

ah, good to hear youre back. i look forward to seeing more of the good stuff

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:36 pm

I was almost sure you were bored and gone. Glad you're still active, I'm looking forward to seeing your new models.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:32 pm

I'm also looking forward to seeing the LC set

Andvary · Post by **Andvary** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:23 am

OK, here I am again. I'm fine and not bored at all so far. Lost some of the initial steam maybe. :^) But that's for the better I think, if I am to maintain some constant pace and not die glued to the monitor.

Strangely, I'm having troubles with the forum ever since this thread was moved here. The page would go into an infinite reload loop and it takes some 40-50 attempts to load it correctly. Anyone around here having the same sort of problem? Any easy fix for that?

All right. I didn't have much time after I've returned from the conference (and none whatever before that) so not much really new here.

http://www.inogda.net/andvary/temp/Tamriel_Rebuilt/Goldmoor_LC1&2_1.rar

-I've added Goldmoor_LC2 building, which is pretty similar to the first one.

-Door and window frames are redone as per Aro's suggestion. It does save some 15 polies per frame, although I think Beth did it like this for easier texturing more than anything else.

-Edge chamfering was redone to some extent where requested by El Scumbago. I didn't add more chamfering though, as it's doubly chamfered almost all over and there are few original Oblivion models with edges chamfered more than once and very few (if any) with more than double chamfering. Triple chamfering starts getting really messy around high curvature areas and eats a lot of polies too. Anyway, I hope you like it better this time.

-Chimneys. I have three of them now, all nicely rounded. I still think those on the inside should be at least level with the parapet if one is to expect a good draught and a smoke-free rooftop.

I'd also suggest retaining the external chimney for many-storey buildings with multiple fireplaces.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:25 pm

yep, its very easy to fix. get mozilla firefox.