Quagmire Interiors

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:41 am

The spirit of Sload still guides us through a process unseen. All hail the Sload Lord.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:04 pm

Nomadic1 wrote:I've noticed that all I've been doing is shooting down ideas. I feel like I'm Sloadie

Not at all, I think you had good reason to, especially in my case.

And yes, all hail Sload.

By the way, I just though of a rather whacky idea: You are in the starting prison, in your cell, and you see the emperor coming down the stairs. However, before he reaches your cell he is assassinated. So you have to wait in the cell, without being able to get at the key to your cell, and are stuck there. After a while, you go to the next nightmare. Of course, the problem with this is that it will probably just be boring, rather than nightmarish.

Anyway, to go away from MD related themes, I have thought of another nightmare: You appear on an oblivion plane, this would be a good time to show off Quagmire's architecture, if we make any more than just the gate. The player has to fight his way to a sigil, avoiding traps etc. Finally, he reaches it and does whatever someone does with a sigil, and the plane begins to crumble. The player must then run out of the tower to a gate that appeared and go through. The plane in this nightmare should be very small, as I haven't gotten to the nightmare yet.
The player appears beside the gate somewhere in Hammerfell, and the gate closes behind him or her. Now the idea is that the player would see something which would suggest failure or something similar, while thinking that he was really in Hammerfell, rather than a nightmare. For example, let's say that the gate is at the side of a mountain, somewhere in the Dragontails, and a pass leads from there to a tiny valley. There the player finds a small village, with all the inhabitants lying dead or getting killed by the swarming Daedra, whom the player has to kill. After he has killed them, he can explore the place a bit. In one of the houses, he'll meet someone who's still alive. He tells the player that Sentinel and (let's say) Hegathe and Gilane fell to Vaernima, who appeared in person at the siege of Sentinel, and that Dragonstar was under siege, also with Varnima present, and then dies. The player gets transported to the next nightmare. I'm not sure if this specific scenario would be nightmarish enough, but you get the idea.

The ideal setting would be, in my opinion, Sentinel, where the player can witness the siege first hand, and needs to try and avoid dying, but I don't see how this can feasibly be done with a small scale in mind, a tiny valley can just fit in a village is probably already too much.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:53 pm

I actually like the last idea you have there Gnomey, whereby it looks like the PC has gone through Quagmire successfully but then discovers they re just in another nightmare. I can't imagine Vaernima besieging cities though. The gate would have to be in a very specific location too (no problem there).

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:21 pm

With Vaernima, I imagine that besieging wouldn't be in the normal sense, I rather imagine her being there so that she can put her nightmarish powers to their best use. Actually, she might conjure up her image by all of the cities. It's one thing to have a city be attacked be Daedra. Being attacked by a Daedra prince is always worse.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:00 pm

or how bout the player destroys the plane by taking the sigil stone and then appears in the mountains, suddenly 200 or so more gates start to open, spiraling out from that first one and then Vaernima's creatures start to pour out of them and then the player is transported to a new nightmare.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:57 pm

Might be a bit overkill, though. First, it would probably slow down the computer to a slideshow. (If not crashing it). And second, if I were a player and 200 daedric portals suddenly appeared, I would probably guess that it is just another nightmare. It's too unlikely. Also, I prefer if the part in Hammerfell is more immersive than just standing on a mountain for a while seeing a ton of daedric portals pop up.

Actually, if you divide the ammount of gates by ten and have them appear one by one, with over ten second's time between, that might be a good idea. It would be too large of a worldspace, though. Especially if you're on a mountain and can see a lot of the countryside.

Hmm, I just got another idea:

The nightmare is also in two halves. Really, it is two nightmares, but one has to follow the other.

1. The first nightmare can be anything, as long as the player is almost dead by the end. As an example, the player appears in a smallish cave room with a high ceiling. He is on a ledge by one wall. The floor below him is covered by lava, which is like Morrowind lava: It hurts you one hitpoint per second. Across the room there is the entrance to a tunnel. The player must run across the room to reach the tunnel, on the lava, and run along the lava filled tunnel. There should be ledges etc. so that he can shortly leave the lava, and maybe one or two health potions lying around, but mainly it's a lava filled tunnel with only one path. Finally, he sees a room. This room should have two levels, with the tunnel opening on the top level.
Just before it reaches the room, there is a little ledge going across the tunnel on which the player can stand. From there he can see the floor of the room. Also, there is no staircase to the floor. It also has lava on the floor, and has no other tunnels leading off it, and no doors. It should be apparent to the player that he can't escape, so he has three options: 1. Stand there, nothing will happen. 2. Run back through the tunnel, where he won't find anything, and will probably die from the lava. 3. Jump into the room and land on the lava. If he does this, or dies from the lava in the hallway, he is transported to the second nightmare. This is really a lot like the Vivec Puzzle Canal quest.

2. The player finds himself in a plane. This would also be a good time to use Quagmire architecture. There are plenty of Daedra roaming about. Across the plane the player can see a large tower, or a few towers. The player obviously has to get there, but there's one problem: He has hardly any health left, as it wasn't regenerated (or was only slightly regenerated) after the first dungeon. So the player needs to try and avoid the Daedra who will try to attack him and rush to the tower where, on the top story, he will find a guarded portal. All he needs to do is rush past the guard and enter the portal, and his health will be regenerated and he will appear in the next nightmare.

Really, the first nightmare doesn't need to be there, and the player could just appear with hardly any health. The addition of the first nightmare was more aesthetic than anything else; it seemed more evil.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:22 am

To go with your idea of being wounded, how about the player arrives in a dark forest, in front of one fairly large, but not castle sized building. Then a (very pretty) woman in white clothes (I just like the color white here) comes walking over when she saw you. So she talks to you. "By the nine, you're hurt! We need to get you out of here and get you some medical attention. Just follow me upstairs to the infirmary and we'll see you're well taken care of." So you go into the building, which is completely full of other pretty women, and you walk up the staircase to the infirmary. In the infirmary is a nurse, who is also pretty but not quite as pretty as the other women (no one would trust a 17 year old nurse) So she talks to you. "Oh my! What happened dear? It looks like you just walked out of a war! Hold on, let me get something to heal you right up. So she goes walking out of the room and quickly comes back and gives you a potion. Then she says "Here, drink this. We're out of heath potions, but this does the same thing if you give it some time, and you may also get a bit drowsy. It will heal your wounds if you get a little rest. Now let's get you to bed after we dress these wounds. Don't want any of that precious blood spilling on the floor." So you go to sleep (make sure it checks for at least 6 hours of sleep) but you are woken up and see several ladies standing around you, but something isn't right. The woman who found you in the beginning comes up to talk to you. "Good, you're awake. How are you feeling? Still a litlle drowsy from that medicine? That's alright, you'll get plenty of sleep in a little bit, plenty of sleep. Now, it's been so long since we've had mortals here. I've almost forgotten that taste. But here you are, at last, and we can finally drink that glorious blood again, so sweet, yet full of life. We took your weapons, but that doesn't mean you can't fight back. Fighting makes you so much tastier, all of that blood quickly flowing through your veins. Gives it that extra... "kick". Now, let us drink that precious lifeblood!" So if you were paying any attention to that long dialogue, you'd realize they were vampires. Now here's the catch. That medicine you drank is preventing your fatigue from regenerating, so you'd better not overexert yourself or hope you have some restore fatigue potions. You're also completely unarmed, but so are they, and they're just young ladies. You also got to keep your armor if you had any, so you have better defense than them. This is also still a dream, so you won't catch Porphyric Hemophilia from fighting them. Now you need to take out the five or so vampires in this infirmary, then grab your weapons which are sitting in a chest by the door (make a script that will add them to your inventory after the dream, because you don't lose them in real life and I'd be pretty pissed to lose my Umbra in one of my dreams just because I forgot it in a chest) So you get your weapons back (or you forgot them) and you walk downstairs and find about 10 more vampire women. Beat them up, then walk outside. There is a portal in front of the door that heads out, and a few of Vaernima's daedra guarding it. So you kill them and you can finally leave.

There we go, entirely possible with vanilla objects (except for the daedra who will be there anyways) and also a little scary.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:48 am

I dunno, but it seems too long for me.

I reacon we also should have just a few generic Varemnia Realms, with all the vannila stuff and such. Just for the sake of it. I'm not sure how you'd get out, though...

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:32 am

Actually, I like Gnomey's idea a lot. I can't even imagine the pc's frustration when he comes out of the gate, thinks everything's fine and then faces a disaster that makes him think he screwed up big time.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:56 am

I was talking about IATE's idea.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:06 am

And I was talking about Gnomey's.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:16 pm

Gah I can't come up with a good idea. I'll keep trying

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:17 pm

well, why not have simply the "'wounded" pc have his hp capped around 1/4 of what it normally is for one int... so they' have to be damn careful.. and say, pit them against maybe, 30 or 40 1 or 2 shottable monsters. so, feels really "epic before you do" kinda fight. then they escape, ergo, hp is returned to normal, all is good.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:25 pm

Isn't Vaernima also supposed to have good dreams in her realm?

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:54 am

IAMTHEEMPEROR wrote:Isn't Vaernima also supposed to have good dreams in her realm?

Where's the fun in that?

Seriously though, I think she is the prince of nightmares, but if she encompasses all dreams then I guess we could have one or two happy dreams. (they would have to be ominously happy though so the player expects to get his ass handed to him at any point)

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:52 am

Yeah. Like Gatekeepers skipping around in a field of flowers.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:41 am

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:05 pm

She controls it all though, so if she just wants the player to have nightmares, then nightmares it is.

How do you enter her realm though, find a strange daedric bed in the middle of nowhere and take a nap?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:19 pm

There have been several ideas about that. Sload, when he suggested Quagmire quests in the first place, wanted these to be different Daedric gates in the Dragontails. Later somebody, forget who, suggested that instead that NPCs throughout Hammerfell are asleep and can't be woken up and the PC has to enter their dreams (like the Henantier quest Kud-Ei gives you).

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:29 pm

I say build ancient Daedric temples and have the portals kept there. Maybe we could think up a Vaernimal hunt like Hircine's Hunt of the Innocent Quarry I think it is. Or perhaps something like Vaernima has become so warped that she can no longer distinguish reality from fantasy so she opened the gates in hopes of uniting them. That idea pretty much makes her insane, but in the end, maybe the player can banish Vaernima from the Mortal Plane by using the old protonymic - neonymic thing from Battlespire. Or maybe instead of banishing her, the ritual of names only makes her vulnerable, then the players kicks her ass or dies.

In other words, I say the whole Quagmire thing should be elevated to a full questline and not just fun places to go kill monsters.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:33 am

Every time you sleep you enter the realm of Vaernima. The quest where you need to travel into that guy's mind isn't actually Vaernima's realm. That was him trying to delve into his own conciousness. The only time the player enters the realm of Vaernima is during her daedric shrine quest, where a wizard took one of her artifacts and used it to try and travel into her realm physically, not through his dreams. He linked the mortal realm and Vaernima's in his fort but ended up trapped in eternal sleep, an eternal slave of Vaernima.

I'm almost positive Vaernima does control happy dreams as well though, I think she did say something like that when you talk to her at her shrine.

Ok, to quote Vaernima,
"I dwell in your dreams; I savor your nightmares. Now, you will serve me."

That's the closest thing she said to happy drwam wise, however dreams can also be bad. Her other quote of "When you mutter in your sleep, you speak to me. When you waken wet with sweat, you've just left my house." seems much more nightmare specific.

So if she is only about nightmares, then who controls your dreams? Can good dreams just be times when she isn't there to torment you?

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:40 am

How bout we get real lore crazy and have 2 different Quagmires. We could make it so that Vaernima has two personalities. The black personality rules nightmares. The white personality rules dreams. Though it may sound like Sheo and Jygg, it isn't because Sheo didn't actually exist, it was a prison cell and not an alternate personality. I still say lets meet Vaernima and the pc could meet the 2 Vaernima's each living in an alternate world, one in horror and chaos, the other in beautuy and serenity. Very Singer in White/Singer in Black from Cirque's Alegria.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:14 am

Now I think I will write an extensive main quest

(The Journal is the same as the Quest Log)
(For those who have names like [NAME] means we'll decide them later)
(During this time, Vaernima's Shrine in Cyrodil is unuseable)

--------------
The Awakening
--------------
After a certain point in the game, perhaps some related event the player is part of, he will experience a random nightmare when he sleeps. This will give you a journal entry when you beat the nightmare. This first dream should contain nothing of Vaernima's realm, architecture, Daedra, or otherwise.

Journal: "I have just experienced a horrible nightmare, nothing like I ever have before. This is unusual, maybe I should seek a priest"

-Now this may be a little early to assume something's wrong, so if you want to wait on the need to see a priest until a second nightmare, that's fine. There also is the possibility of having more dreams every time you sleep to force it upon the player, or else they will not stop.

Priest #1: "Oh, nightmares you say? You wouldn't be the first. Lately, many more have come in with the same story, and many more have died, unable to conquer these dreams. I would assume this is the work of the Daedric Prince Vaernima who is supposed to control these nightmares. I am just a priest, so I am afraid I can help you no further. I know of someone who may though. In Sentinel, look for the [BOOKSTORE]. The proprietor, [BOOKSTORE OWNER] may have a book about this. You'd be lucky to find a book he doesn't have."

Journal: "According to a local priest, this seems to be the work of Vaernima, the Daedric Prince of Nightmares. I am to seek out [BOOKSTORE OWNER] and see if he has a book that can help."

--------------------
Seeking the Answers
--------------------

The player now arrives in Sentinel, and finds the bookstore. Inside, there is an old redguard man who the player must talk to.

[BOOKSTORE OWNER]: "A book on Vaernima? I had one a few days ago, called [VAERNIMA BOOK]. But, I'm sorry to say I sold it to an Altmer, [FEMALE ALTMER] from Taneth. She was looking for the same answers you were I guess. If you want it, go find her. Now if you need anything else, get on with it, or else go about your business."

Journal: "It seems [FEMALE ALTMER] in Taneth has the book I'm looking for. If I want the answers I'm looking for, I'll need to seek her out."

The player travels to Taneth, and all of the citizens will have topics on her and give information based on how much they care about you.

Random Citizen: "[Female Altmer]? Turned up dead yesterday. The priests would have already taken her to the Cathedral by now. If you came to pay your respects, I'd go there."

Journal: "It seems [FEMALE ALTMER] has died. I should head to the Cathedral to learn more."

Priest #2: "So you've come to see [FEMALE ALTMER]? Very well, follow me to the undercroft." (enters undercroft, [FEMALE ALTMER] is displayed on a stone thing) "Here she is. Her cause of death was strange. Her husband claims that he woke to her screams in the middle of the night, and could only watch in horror as she tragically passed away. No blood, diseases, or any physical cause of death was found." (player asks about the book) "A book? Well, if she had it, it would most likely still be at her house. Just mind her husband, he's a little out of it with this tragedy."

Journal: "[VAERNIMA BOOK] must still be in her house. I should get it, but be mindful of her husband, who has lost his mind after her death"

The player now goes to her house, a fairly large sized building in the city. He enters and finds a young male Altmer

[MALE ALTMER]: "Who are you? Why are you in here? If you want to help, you'll only fail like all the others, nothing can help me now." (player asks about the book) We've only been married for two weeks, and for the second one she was gone looking for that damned book. And now she's gone! One week, that's all we had together! We were going to have a long marriage, go on our honeymoon to Summerset, have children! You want the book? Take the damn thing and get out of my sight!" (at some point the player could say something really bad to piss him off and make him attack you)

The player now goes upstairs to get the book, sitting on a table next to the bed.

----------------------
Discovering the Truth
----------------------

The player grabs the book, only to realize that it's in an unintelligable language. Now what? Nothing, until the player takes a nap. In this nap, they experience a nightmare, if you want to call it that, I prefer communication. The player wakes up to find himself standing outside a castle/fortress like structure in Quagmire architecture. Of course, there is nothing to do but go in. So you do, and you wind up in a large, long chamber. At the end of a long carpet down the middle sits a throne, where a dark figure sits. Naturally, the player will want to go see, as they can go nowhere else. This dark figure will be an NPC, all Vaernima-ish. You walk close and your controls are disabled.

Dark Figure: "You. You have also found the book. Just like that lowly wretch who thought she could stop us. You know not what the book holds, I can see it in this mind of yours, so simple. You do however, have ambitions to find out. So, you will have to die this day. Tell [FEMALE ALTMER] that Lady Vaernima said hello."

So the player is still unable to mive, the figure rises and pushes a button, opening a hole in the floor where the player stands, and you plummet into a pool of water below. Your controls are enabled, and you're in a dark pit. You hear a roar and a door opens up, letting loose a giant beastie. So you need to kill the beastie, and the corpse explodes, leaving the female Altmer. You inspect her corpse and find a paper that looks like it was ripped from a book.

Torn Page: ".....and we'll go on on our honeymoon in Summerset!
Diary Entry 10
Another nightmare happened last night. This is the third one, and they're driving me crazy. Every time I just barely make it out, and I wake up looking as if nothing had ever happened. I still won't tell [MALE ALTMER], not when we're this close to our honeymoon. Father's a little worried though, says he knows of a book that can help. So I'll have to postpone out honeymoon a bit until I can stop these nightmares.
Diary Entry 11
I made the three-day journey to Sentinel, and luckily no nightmares along the way. Crossing that desert is long, hard, and very very hot. I'll add more to this entry when I get the book.
Finally! I found the book. But by Mara, I can't understand a single word! Some help this was. But Father knows many strange languages, from Ayleid to Old Dunmeric, so if someone knows, he does. When we head out on our honeymoon, I'll head back home to Alinor to see if Father can help.
Diary Entry 12
Two days over the desert and nearing Taneth, and I had another nightmare while camping out. There was a big building, and a dark looking person, threatening to kill me, just for having this book! Suddenly, I was roused while he was talking and realized I was being robbbed! They took my food and water, along with the sack holding all of my clothes for the trip. I'm only a few hours walk away from Taneth, so if I head out now while it's still dark, I may make it before daybreak and it gets hot out.
Diary Entry 13
I finally made it back in Tane.....

The player wakes up after reading the torn page, and the journal is updated.

Journal: "I've awoken from that nightmare. It seems Vaernima herself wants me dead! Judging from the note on [FEMALE ALTMER]'s body, the only one who can help now is this mysterious father of her's. He lives in Summerset, so if I want his help I must seek passage to Alinor."

-----------------------
Trapped in Translation
-----------------------

No matter where the player wants to go, the quest direction arrow thing will always point to the port of Taneth. So he goes there and finds one good ship. On the docks near the ship, the captain, a gruff Redguard, is standing. The player talks to him.

[CAPTAIN]: "Yes, this is the only ship in Taneth that travels to and from the Summerset Isles. I'm sorry to say we've just arrived from Summerset, docked a few minutes ago, and we won't be heading back for a few more weeks. You'll have to reach Alinor from somewhere else, mate."

The player's controls are disabled, and an old looking high elf walks out from the ship, stopping to talk to the Captain.

[OLD ALTMER]: There you are, Captain. Thank you again for helping me gain safe travel to Taneth. I left your payment in your cabin.
[CAPTAIN]: "Thanks for your generous payment. I'm sorry for your loss and wish you luck at your daughter's funeral."
[OLD ALTMER]: Oh [FEMALE ALTMER]...I'm sorry, but I must be going. Thanks again. If you want to come to the funeral, it will be held in a few hours.
[CAPTAIN]: Thanks for your offer, but I have work to do helping unload the cargo.
[OLD ALTMER]: Very well. Goodbye.

The player's controls are enabled, and he can talk to the old man who we now know is the dead woman's father.

[ALTMER FATHER]: Can I help you? Wait, you knew {FEMALE ALTMER]? Ahh, the book. Now I know what happened. If you'll excuse me, we can talk more after the funeral, which you're welcome to come to."

So the player goes to the funeral, heares a few kind words, and then everyone leaves. You talk to her father

[ALTMER FATHER]: I've settled down in the local inn, we'll talk there where I have my resources.

So you go to the inn, where there is a fairly good sized room where he is residing. Many books and magical trinkets are stacked on tables. He talks to you.

[ALTMER FATHER]: "So you are experiencing these same nightmares [FEMALE ALTMER] was? Then this book you have may help. It's about a similar situation, long ago. That's all I can remember of it. Give me a night and I can translate the text. You're welcome to sleep here for the night, I insist. That way, if you have more nightmares someone is here to rouse you."

So the player takes a nap, and of course he has another nightmare. This time he is back in the chamber, same as the last time, and the dark figure is standing there. So he talks to you.

Dark Figure: "You managed to escape me! You have outraged the Lady Vaernima, and again must die. This time, I will ensure you can't move. And if you somehow escape this one, then I promise, every time you escape from the waking world, every time you nod to sleep, you will suffer nightmares worse than death itself! Now, prepare...wait, what's going on?"

Everything gets all fuzzy and you awake back in the inn.

[ALTMER FATHER]: "Oh my, saved you, just in time! You were moaning in your sleep, so I had to wake you. I've managed to translate the text. Here, I made a translated summary for you."

The player now gets a copy of the book.

Translated Summary: Out of all the Daedric Cults, there exist several who have great influence over Tamriel in the name of their Daedric lords, and who are blessed by the lords themselves. One such group once plagued Hammerfell shortly before the conquest of the Empire. They were the servents of the Daedric Lord Vaernima, and called themselves the [ENEMY FACTION].

Under the actions of this cult, nightmares were spread far and wide throughout the western regions of the new Empire. They killed many in their sleep with nightmares that would devour your soul, making you a slave of Vaernima for all eternity.

To spread these nightmares, they constructed what was called the [CONSRUCT NAME]. It was a tool that served as an anchor between the mortal realm and Vaernima's Quagmire. Using this, nightmares spread out from Quagmire, plagueing the minds of thousands of people.

However, the [ENEMY FACTION] made enemies. One such assault, from an unknown crusade, utterly destroyed the cult and the plagues of nightmares. An unknown hero had destroyed the anchor tying the two realms together, and had quelled the cult's activity almost into nothing.

However, the process of destroting the [CONSRUCT NAME] is still known. To do so, you need.....

(The old book was torn, so there is nothing left to summarize)

Bah, I'm tired of writing, and this will probably all go to waste anyways. It's 2 in the morning and I'm going to bed.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:09 am

I say keep writing it. I liked it so far.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:09 am

I have a few problems with it (surprise, surprise).

Nightmares are a fact of life. Few nightmares would be that much worse than any other. Vaernima sometimes plays favourites (ie; give the most gruesome nightmares to certain people) but they are her cultists or are picked out at birth from what I can gather of it. She, like so many other Daedric lords, isn't out just to kill random people eithe - she seems far less the type to. Of course if one entered her realm physically, they would be at her mercy. I gather that to actually die in Quagmire would require to physically be there in more than a dream. It makes no sense that the book would allow that (given its contents), whilst still keeping the body safe in Nirn.

Redguards also are the type to remember crusades and wars, and the names of heroes.

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:49 am

Nomadic1 wrote: I gather that to actually die in Quagmire would require to physically be there in more than a dream. It makes no sense that the book would allow that (given its contents), whilst still keeping the body safe in Nirn.

-If you die in the Matrix, do you die in the real world too?
-The body can't live without the mind.

And besides that, which seems quite reasonable to me, what purpose would a visit to Quagmire have if the player can leave it after a while no matter what, without any loss?
If there's no risk in entering Quagmire then there's no interest for the player. Furthermore, it would mean that Vaermina has no actual power, so her dreamy invasion in Hammerfell has no purpose at all.

As for the "how-to-enter-Quagmire" question, I'd suggest that instead of gates the player would have to find the people who have fallen asleep and touch their bodies (or generally activate them) and then rest to get transfered to their dreams.
We can explain this by saying that the mental aura of a sleeper who is currently in Quagmire is powerful enough to affect those who come in contact with him, connecting them to the dream realm where he's in. This way, we could also have groups of sleepers who happened to touch a Quagmire-trapped guy and got their minds trapped in the same nightmare when they fell asleep.

Now, if we accept the conclusion of one of Morrowind's books (Gods and Worship I think, or something similar), then the power of a god is equal to his followers/offerings/whatever. Based on this, we can assume that what Vaermina wants is a decent number of trapped sleepers to draw enough power from in order to finally launch a physical attack on Hammerfell, or simply make a gate, walk in and take it over.
Let's not forget that Mehrunes' power is fed by destruction, murder etc, so he had enough power to open a bunch of gates and invade Tamriel.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:08 pm

You misunderstand me. I was picking at the flaw in the lack of connection between Nirn and Quagmire (how does the PC enter Quagmire in a more real sense?), not the actual idea of it. BTW: The Matrix sucked arse, and its sequels got progressively worse. Boo Matrix, and Scummy for mentioning it

IMO the real question is "What do we want to do with the Quagmire realms - have them as gates in the Dragontails or have them in peoples dreams while they sleep?" And how exactly does it all work, and what is the motivation?

PS: The Mythic Dawn opened all the gates to the Deadlands, and kept opening them as the PC closed them all. Mehrunes Dagon couldn't actually open a gate to Nirn itself.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:52 pm

I think the Quagmire should be something the PC ventures into during their sleep. That would make it seem more spooky and prophetic than just 'oh there's another door to another odd realm like we've seen so much of in Oblivion already'. It would lend a fresh, unique credibility to the idea.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:09 pm

Id agree on that one but there is one problem with it. I know I only ever slept so that my character could regain its health so if we gave them nightmares, then the character would lose health and not gain any, unless health was fully restored to the character upon completing the nightmare scenario.

Post by **Gnomey** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:44 pm

I agree that Quagmire should only be entered by 1. The player's dreams or 2. someone else's dreams. Also, I don't think that the player should be targeted, as someone already said.

However, why is Vaernima invading anyway? I don't think we gave her a reason. I'd like it if, somehow, MD managed to get into an alliance with her. This would be an interesting point to expand on, as it doesn't sound like a very straight forward proposition. She should be a willing ally, IMO, and the player should try and convince her that it isn't worth it. This might give the player some interesting options:

He could play it safe:
1. He could kill a cult/destroy a series of nightmare planes and frame it on MD, or rather his followers.
2. He could close all of the realms connecting to Vaernima's own, cutting her off for a while.
3. Or, and this is the one that I really like, he could try and form a second "alliance" with her against MD.

Or take use more dangerous methods:
4. He could just run around taking sigils and destroying as much as he can, hoping that the losses will be too heavy for her. Here the nightmares would probably get almost impossible towards the end.
5. He can blackmail her by some more verbal methods, (this should probably be the most dangerous, as it is likely to make her very angry).

I do not think that he should be able to banish her, though. Two is the closest that the player should be able to get to that. After all, if she gets too hurt, she can disappear and leave him in a nightmare. She, unlike, I think, the other lords, has complete control of her realm, and the most direct methods should be impossible.

Another nice idea would be that she invaded a random wizard's personal plane, maybe killing him in the process, maybe imprisoning him. In this case that plane would probably not be a nightmare, though.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:03 pm

I don't think she ever would ally with Mehrunes Dagon, nor do I think she would ever invade in the real sense. One just can't fight a Daedra Lord willy nilly - read the Battlespire storyline at TIL to see what I mean.

I would rather it be associated with some dark group targetting certain people, and using Quagmire to take them out because everybody sleeps (except the PC).

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:54 pm

I see a major flaw of concept here... The whole continent is besieged by tangible daedra, and since only mr.Dagon has an interest in Tamriel, I can't imagine a second daedra prince doing the same. If we say that a bunch of cultists took the opportunity to fullfil some plans of theirs, then we break the consistency between TR and our mod, since we'll be inventing and possibly changing lore.
If she's gonna invade the place, we'd better find something supported or neglected by the current lore so that there isn't any conflict.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:36 am

All right, if you want me to keep writing then I will. Not like it's certain to be accepted anyways

As for names, we can throw in some general racial names, and for this cult I was thinking something with the word dreamers or sleepers in it, but then I realized that Dagoth Ur screwed me over on that possibility by having his servants with those titles, so other ideas would be good.

-----------------
A Turn of Events
-----------------

Journal (from previous events): "After making some sense of the old book, I've learned that an old cult, operating under Vaernima, spread nightmares which people actually died from. By doing so, it seems Vaernima was able to raise her ranks, though this process is still mysterious."

[ALTMER FATHER]: "That's all I could get out of it. Now you had a good night's rest, but I am exhausted. Mind if I could get a few hours alone to sleep?"

The player leaves the room, and the old man goes to sleep. The player exits the inn, and suddenly someone rushes out to the cathedral/chapel/whatever religious building of Taneth, yelling, Murder! Murder!

Journal: "Someone just game running out of the inn yelling murder. I should head back in and see what happened."

The player walks back inside, and the inn keeper comes up to talk.

Inkeeper: "Oh, you! I saw you with him. Quickly, it's an emergency, I think he might be dead!"

The player walks upstairs, back to the room, and finds the old man dead. There is a female Dunmer witness standing outside, who is the maid.

Witness: "He...he killed him! I was walking up here, making my usual cleaning rounds, and one of the guests walked out of the room, carrying a dagger. He walked into this room,, and I saw him. He stabbed the man on the bed, in his chest. He heard me when I screamed, and I guess he knew that all of Taneth would be after him, so he drank a poison or something and just plopped dead on the floor. I...I can't clean this mess."

Journal: "An assasin came in and killed [ALTMER FATHER] as I was walking out. He also killed himself when he realized there was no escape. There is definately a conspiracy in the works, no doubt related to the book and events of the past. And I fear I am entangled in the center. Maybe I can learn more from the assasin"

The player inspects the assasin's corpse and finds a letter.

Letter: "[ASSASSIN], [ENEMY FACTION CAPTAIN] has been spoken to in the dark citadel of Vaernima, and has asked me to relay this news to you. It would seem there are a few who seek to impede our progress, and we are entrusting you to silence them. We have no names, but you should be able to spot them.

The first is a traveller from Cyrodiil. The master failed when attempting to personally deal with him himself. He has been witnessed in Taneth, asking questions that may harm our plans.

Your second target is an Altmer who lives in Alinor in the Summerset Isles. I don't expect you to hop on a ship and kill him there. But he has recently left Alinor, heading to Taneth to attend his daughter's funeral. One of our agents is serving captain on the ship transporting him, so this information is reliable.

Once both targets are dead, head back to the temple. The captain who delivered the Altmer can ferry you over there"

Journal: "My suspicions were correct, and I have indeed been marked for assasination. I should keep my guard up, and my eyes open for as long as possible. The letter mentions the captain as a member of this group, who was supposed to take the assasin to this temple. I should ask him for answers."

---------------
Interrogations
---------------

This one's a short one, just get to the captain on his ship who's defended by his crew, and ask some questions. So I'll just skip to the dialogue.

Captain: "It certainly took you long enough to find out. Go on, ask your questions, you'll get nothing out of me."
(player asks why they want him dead)
Captain: "Isn't it obvious at this point? I don't even need to say anything, you should already know this if you managed to find me out."
(player asks what they are planning)
Captain: "What, you're deaf too? I told you I'd tell you nothing."
(player threatens to kill him if he refuses to speak)
Captain: "Kill me now? You aren't a very bright one, are you. Kill me, and you don't get your answers anyways. Torture me? I see no tools of any such thing with you. But I might not be ready to face death yet."
(player asks about their plans again)
Captain: "Fine. No matter what, I'm a goner at this point. You can kill me and not get your information, or you can get your information from me, leaving me to Vaernima's judgement, and I don't think she'll be as merciful."
(player says he can help the player stop her)
Captain: "You raise a good point. I'll tell you your information, so long as I get to live my last day until I pass out of exhaustion."
(player asks about the plans again)
Captain: "Right. You've learned about the [ENEMY FACTION] from the old man, right? Well, the past is repeating itself. Vaernima has taken control of the minds of the surviving descendants of the cult ,and started it over again several years ago. These bloodlines ended when the last one died with no one to suceed them, so the newly reborn cult was in a bit of turmoil. They operated under one we refer to as the Master, no one but the higher ups know who he really is. But he's a strange one, I've never seen a trace of him. I actually never had much interest in this, but they said I wouldn't need to wory about the issues in my life if I joined. So I did. My debts vanished, and my family was protected from this assault they have planned."
(the player asks about this assault)
Captain: "The Aedra have set up protective barriers over Nirn, protecting it from the realm of Oblivion. To bypass this barrier, there were plans to create a second [CONSTRUCT NAME]. This was started again almost six years ago, finished only recently."
(player states how the barrier has broken, since Dagon was free to invade)
Captain: "I was getting to that. Vaernima is the Daedric prince of dreams and nightmares, and her Daedra follow suit. They have no power in the waking world. So they wage war in people's nightmares. That is how they conquer us, until they can distort the waking world enough that they are tied together."
(player asks how they do that)
Captain: You've seen how Dagon and his followers use Oblivion gates to create a link? Vaernima and the [ENEMY FACTION] use a similar process, except it's not a gate. It's more like an anchor, an amplifier if you will, that creates a substantially stronger influence to the realm of Vaernima in people's minds. Hallucinations, excessive nightmares, and the possibility of death every time you take a nap. Those are all happening because of the [CONSRUCT NAME]. This is a war more lethal than any war that can be fought with blades in this realm."
(player asks how it can be stopped)
Captain: "You need to find the [CONSTRUCT NAME] and destroy it."
(player asks where it is)
Captain: "I've heard it's at the temple of Vaernima, but I have no idea where it is. You need the blessing of Vaernima herself to know where it is."
(player says he was supposed to take the assasin to the temple)
Captain: "So he was going to the Temple of Vaernima? My orders were to sail all the way around to Hegathe and drop him off there. I'm guessing that means the temple is close to there. That's all I know, now leave me to my last day."

Journal: "I had a long interrogation with the Captain. He agreed to tell me all he knew. It appears that the revived [ENEMY FACTION] is using a second [CONSTRUCT NAME] to assault Tamriel again. If I am to stop them, I must find this Temple of Vaernima, which is most likely near Hegathe."

Well, It's 1:30 in the morning, and I'm tired, so off to Vaernima's realm for me. I'll finish up the rest tomorrow if you want.

Yes, write it while it's late and I'm halfway asleep, the perfect way to write a story about the realm of dreams and nightmares.

And as for lore conflicts, I'll patch it all up tomorrow. Vaernima isn't interested in Tamriel, but the people in it.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:39 am

Still alive, IATE?

Tell us about the interior you visited in your sleep and we may use it...

I like the story so far, but something is bugging me. I'm not sure what. And for me right now is 6:30. If you wan't to know what part of the world I live in, see location

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:22 pm

@ El Scumbago: In my idea, where Vaernima is allied with MD, this is not so much of a problem, as she would just be remembered as a part of the invasion. In IATE and Nomadic's ideas, it might just be a small enough event, especially while MD is invading, that it isn't even remembered, or is only vaguely believed to have been part of the Daedric attacks on the Empire. So neither will really go against lore, like a separate invasion would.
And @ Nomadic: Vaernima does have weaknesses that MD could exploit. We learn this from Morrowind, for example, where Molag Bal was able to get the cure for Vampirism from her. This required persuasion of some sort, and though it probably didn't make her an ally of Molag Bal, he was still able to get what he wanted. So an MD and Vaernima alliance might not be quite that impossible.
Reading the Battlespire story line also further convinced me that, in her realm, banishing Vaernima would be almost impossible. I didn't see anything against my suggested ways of stopping her invasion, though.

However, I see your point. As I wrote above, IATE and your ideas of a cult using Vaernima and my idea of MD being allied with her are both possibilities that don't necessarily go against the Lore. I can't think of any other possibilities, unless the invasion is really a defense of Vaernima against some Redguard attacks at her shrines, which would probably be remembered, to come to think of it. Both have their flaws. (The cult idea's flaw is that it would have to be on a pretty small scale to escape notice, and that Vaernima is not really important to the idea. It's the cult boss that the player will have to deal with, and not directly Vaernima, though this is sensible too). I guess we'll be spending our time now arguing over which has more flaws.

IAMTHEEMPEROR · Post by **IAMTHEEMPEROR** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:28 pm

Ok, now in my story the player will have to go on a final assault in their temple. I was thinking maybe stepping back into the days of Morrowind when you were a one man killing machine and did big things all on your own. But this may be argued as unrealistic, so the player can also go with a small group of people. I'd prefer the first one, because it's easier to write and I don't need to worry about allies dying during battles like in KotN. So, which would you all prefer?

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:38 pm

The player can go alone, I'd say. Maybe, if he got in through someone else's nightmare, that person could tag along and have a use. (healer, warrior, blacksmith who happens to sleep with his hammers on him, etc.). But I see no reason why the player shouldn't be able to go alone. If the temple is in Oblivion, though, keep in mind that Vaernima's sphere is not hack-and-slash, but nightmares. A nightmare is as spooky as it is dangerous, sometimes more spooky than dangerous. The good part is that nightmares are normally experienced by a single person, and that in a nightmare that person can always win.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:00 pm

This is all why I suggested that the Quagmire "invasion" should not be in any way connected to the Mehrunes Dagon and Camoran invasion, except in the exploitation of the weak barrier holding Oblivion out of Nirn.

Personally I would rather a group, persons unknown, is using the weak barrier and the human need to sleep to assassinate various people in Hammerfell, means unknown, to do something on a Hammerfell-wide scale, reasons unknown. They may or may not have the support of Vaernima, and she may or may not know or even care about it.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:52 am

We may even make a Vaernima MQ wereas the cult is useing her nightmares, and she doesn't like this, and you have to work for her and etc.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 am

Vaernima could stop it if she wanted to - after all it is her realm.