Quagmire.

[Hillbilly Man]

I trust you Harke. I just could see the situation going very bad if not handled right. and no I haven't seen the CA and the models yet. I am sure Quagmire will be very cool.

[Harke the Apostle]

Here's some concepts:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=conceptart&section=19706

I don't think you can see the model unless they promote you to modder. But IIRC they're modeling the Gifter now.

[Hillbilly Man]

Those are looking really good. Quagmire is going to turn out great.

Anyone who hasn't seen the art should have a look. It is definantly worth your time.

[Sload]

In oblivion main quest it is MD opening the gates.

And that's the fucking pickle. It doesn't say if the gates are being opened by the Dawn on this side or Dagon on the other. Which is why we can't make up a reason.

Characters can speculate certainly, but it can't be clear and it can't involve some huge bullshit backstory.

[Hemitheon]

That gives me an idea.

The player can be lead to believe that there will be some big main quest. But in the end, after countless nightmares, he/she meets or hears Vaernima. And she reveals the truth. There is no great quest or story. The only purpose of this entire thing was to demonstrate to the player how vain and corrupt he/she is. I mean the player goes in thinking that he/she will be righting wrongs or doing great things, but what if at the end of Quagmire, the only purpose was to gaze into the abyss of Man's delusions and depravity.

[Sload]

i dont see how thats possible to implement with 20 different gates?

[Hemitheon]

Why not?

And to really drive it home, Vaermina will take the player on a tour of the nightmares he/she entered and killed in. Once there, she takes away the illusion and reveals that the player was killing normal people who were disguised by magic to look like monsters.

[Gez]

Why not?

And to really drive it home, Vaermina will take the player on a tour of the nightmares he/she entered and killed in. Once there, she takes away the illusion and reveals that the player was killing normal people who were disguised by magic to look like monsters.

Une idée que je rejette, Marie-Antoinette. On two grounds:
1. These monsterpeople were in nightmares, therefore they weren't real.
2. The "fooled you, you were really killing innocents" thing has already been used by the Fighters Guild questline.

[Hemitheon]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well then V's doing it for the sake of doing it. She's a god and she doesn't need a reason.

[Sload]

Okay. Explain how there could possibly be a mainquest to the gates with the system we have set up right now.

[Infinitium]

Just an idea regarding the design on the gates themselves:

Working off the assumption that the boundaries between Oblivion and Tamriel were permanently weakened during the Cyrodiil MQ, it's logical that every Daedric Prince is vying for a piece of the mortal cake. However, unlike MD physical conquest wouldn't really be in style for a Mistress of Nightmares, and the "Glowing Portals" were decidedly a mode of transportation for Daedric troops.

Instead, what if Vaermina, with ample help from covens worshipping her, were instead manifesting parts of Quagmire onto Tamriel itself? It would make sense for her to try to change the world into a living nightmare. Basically, the portal itself would be in the form of a transformed, twisted, outlandish tree covered by arcane symbols and offerings from he local witches (probably defended by them as well..), surrounded by slowly spreading Quagmire vegetation.

This is also easy to work into the "Sleeping" idea from a few pages back; the nightmarish presence of the tree causes everyone who sleeps in the vicinity to be transported to Quagmire for a single nightmare. This is easily easily done by adding a script to every bed in a certain radius? Also would it be possible to add that "uneasy rest" animation that the guy from the Bravin(?) quest "into a nightmare, darkly" diplayed, tossing and turning in his sleep to every NPC sleeping within the radius? It also adds a sense of urgency of shutting the gate down that is different from "monster invasion n0ez!".

Once the player has found and removed the sigil stone he/she is transported back outside the now dead tree, and the "sleep" scripts are removed from the nearby beds. Everybody happy.

EDIT: Oh, and mandatory nightmare ideas.

- The PC's subcounscius pt1: Inferiority Complex: Generic road in Mehrunes Realm leading up to an active Great Gate. PC has to fight respawning Daedra on his way up to the gate. Dead people from the MQ (Martin, Captain Rennault, tutorial asshole Dunmer etc) appears along the way taunting, accusing and reprimanding the PC (0 disposition). Last one in line is The Emperor, who spites the PC for his inability to complete the task set before him. There's a Sigil Stone hovering before the Great Gate directly behind him, but as the Player grabs it Mehrunes Dagon (Nightmare one, not the real deal obviously) appears out of the gate instead. Cue ominous laughter. The PC has to defeat the Mehrunes look-alike in order to exit the nightmare.

- PC's subcounscious pt2: Childhood: The NPC Depending on the NPC's gender/race they will eventually meet their father or mother (male npc's meet their dad and vice versa), who will be a slightly oversized (who doesn't remember their parents towering above them?) NPC of the appropriate race and gender with a blanked face texture. They lecture the PC as if they were 4-5 years old and had misbehaved, eventually deciding that "punishment" is in order, and fights the PC HtH. He/She obv. don't wear any equipment or sling spells, but should be at an extremely high level compared to the PC to create a challenging fight nonetheless. Freudian Oidipus-Complex, anyone?

- PC's subcounscious Pt3: Guilt: the PC is on the town square of Kwatch (the one with the statue) prior to the daedric invasion. After talking to a few normal (100 disp.) NPC's about nothing in particular, several Oblivion gates opens up, that infernal rain starts, and the Daedra do their thing. Some sort of sound loop of a multitude of voices urging the PC to save them. The PC can fight the Daedra, but new ones will continiously spawn from the gates. After a short while the Great Gate opens up, at which point the PC can leave through it, abandoning whomever is left behind.

- The ruins of Bruma with the Daedric War machine in the middle of it. From the Chapel the PC has to fight his/her way up the stairs and into the castle to exit. Statues of Mehrunes Dagon where the statues of the player/Martin should be.

- The bottom of the sea at night, attacked by a school of slaughterfish. There is a grotto on the sea floor labeled "Exit", but it doesn't have any scripts attached. And there's an invisible wall preventing the PC from getting above the surface to breathe. Once the PC drowns (some script to shut off water breathing if possible, and make it so that they drown faster than normal once out of air) he is transported. Basically the player is lulled into believing the slaughterfish were the nightmare, tries to exit, thinks there's a bug in the game, tries to get to the surface, and drowns. Should catch a few people off-guard.

- Generic Quagmire Swamp setting (most of the "Nightmares" should take place in these to reinforce the idea that everything takes place on a separate plane imo). PC encounters another adventurer, who has apparently been trapped in Quagmire for a very, very long time. Insane, speaks of his personal horror in Quagmire, then mistakes PC for another nightmare, attacks after brief conversation.

- Hamlet (in swamp) at night. Torch wearing residents are walking about, as are a host of (small) Zombies. The Zombies aren't hostile to the residents, who happily talk to the player about the weather, latest gossip.. and the children (for those of you who have played System Shock 2: think Midwives).

- Cloud Ruler Temple, guarded by undead blades. Lich in the great hall wearing the Amulet of Kings. Grabbing the amulet off the Lich's corpse acts as exit.

- Standing on an Ayleid ruin "crusher" trap with no exits. Trap rumbles and activates. Several mutilated bodies and other clutter lying about. Exit point is a locked cage on the center of the trap requiring a key. Player has to find the key lying on the ground before the trap reaches the top. S/He has got 10-15 seconds to find the key and unlock the exit before that happens (instant death).

- The player reappears at the base of the tree.. except somethings wrong. The Quagmire has completely overtaken the vicinity, the sky is pitch-black, the skeletal remains of the sleeping worshippers are still lying on their bedrolls and there are several Vaermina Daedra guarding the place. The player exits as he leaves the grove.

- Swamp setting. Very dark. Single path. Along the path ahead there's a non-hostile, stationary Will-o the Wisp (unkillable). When the player approaches, the Wisp dissappears and another one is spawned on the road ahead. The Wisps will lead in player in cirkles though, and more enemies ("Lost Ones" - Renamed levelled Gloom Wraiths) are being continuosly spawned. In order to find the exit, the player has to turn around and walk in the opposite direction from the Will-o. The Exit itself is a Red will-o the wisp a short while "upspin" from the currently active Wisp (the player won't be able to see it if chasing the Wisps as it swaps positions at the same time the Wisps disappears, and stays out of sight from them).

[Nalin]

...what if Vaermina, with ample help from covens worshipping her, were...manifesting part of Quagmire onto Tamriel itself? It would make sense for her to try and make the world into a living nightmare. Basically, the portal itself would be in the form of a transformed, twisted, outlandish tree covered by arcane symbols and offerings from he local witches (probably defended by them as well..), surrounded by slowly spreading Quagmire vegetation.

This is also easy to work into the "Sleeping" idea from a few pages back; the nightmarish presence of the tree causes everyone who sleeps in the vicinity to be transported to Quagmire for a single nightmare. This is easily easily done by adding a script to every bed in a certain radius? Also would it be possible to add that "uneasy rest" animation that the guy from the Bravin(?) quest "into a nightmare, darkly" diplayed, tossing and turning in his sleep to every NPC sleeping within the radius? It also adds a sense of urgency of shutting the gate down that is different from "monster invasion n0ez!".

Once the player has found and removed the sigil stone he/she is transported back outside the now dead tree, and the "sleep" scripts are removed from the nearby beds. Everybody happy.

I love the weird twisted withered tree thing as a kind of portal - much more than the current look.
Thing is though, wouldn't creatures be hanging around there too? if plants have been sent there by Vaermina then surely she'd throw in a gifter to watch over the sleeping worshippers?
- after a fight the PC will most probably need a lay-down and where better to do it than on that lovely (nightmare inducing) unoccupied bedroll so conveniently placed there?

And I'd like to have different objects as sigil stones to transport you back/wake you up.

[Hemitheon]

What I've been wondering is what is the purpose of the Quagmire creatures, like the Gifter and stuff. The nightmare ints that have been done do not use them. Will the creatures replace those already in the nightmare interiors? Or are they for a formal Quagmire kingdom yet to be created?

[Gez]

Presumably, they'll replace and/or complement other creatures once they'll be ready...

[Lud]

Okay. Explain how there could possibly be a mainquest to the gates with the system we have set up right now.

A portal of some sort opens somewhere near Elinhir. The people pretty soon get fed up with the nightmares and jazz, but things really hit the fan when a Yoku mystic arrives and claims that this is the first part of a prophecy, saying that the Temple must be cleansed before this will stop. This call is taken up by an exiled ruler of some sort, who latches onto it to try ot get rid of the current ruler and get his place back. When the player sees the prophecies, they sort of match up with the attacks and this exile kind of seems to be the "chosen one". However, these prophecies are very vague. The player gets to choose which side to help, finding out along the way that the exile isn't the chosen one at all, having just manipulated the prophecy when he saw an opportunity. The player gets to choose whether ot try ot reveal this, etc.
In the end, they are left no wiser regarding the portals.

[Milamber]

scariest nightmare ever:
dark,
suddenly a dozn invincible adoring fans!
All looping "By Azura, By Azura" except for one who loops the full greeting
drink the posion lying by dead people in arena uniforms to escape

[Gez]

Okay. Explain how there could possibly be a mainquest to the gates with the system we have set up right now.

A portal of some sort opens somewhere near Elinhir. The people pretty soon get fed up with the nightmares and jazz, but things really hit the fan when a Yoku mystic arrives and claims that this is the first part of a prophecy, saying that the Temple must be cleansed before this will stop. This call is taken up by an exiled ruler of some sort, who latches onto it to try ot get rid of the current ruler and get his place back. When the player sees the prophecies, they sort of match up with the attacks and this exile kind of seems to be the "chosen one". However, these prophecies are very vague. The player gets to choose which side to help, finding out along the way that the exile isn't the chosen one at all, having just manipulated the prophecy when he saw an opportunity. The player gets to choose whether ot try ot reveal this, etc.
In the end, they are left no wiser regarding the portals.

Alrighty-do, whoop whoop whoop, before we get any further down the rabbit hole, I'd like to check one point:

If the player is already the Champion of Cyrodiil, all the gates, be they to Quagmire or to the Deadland, are closed, right?

It's kinda important.

• If the Quag-gates are closed through Oblivion's main quest's completion, then a main quest for Quagmire is compltely superfluous, and thus a waste of time.
• If the Quag-gates are not closed, on the other hand, then we have a copy-cat and a main quest for Hammerfell that's basically Oblivion 2.0, and thus a waste of creative power.

Needless to say, I like neither alternative and would, personally, as a criticizing grouch who doesn't even contribute anymore, prefer that Quagmire would be just a diversion rather than be glorified with a main quest.

[Hemitheon]

Hasn't always been assumed that Hammerfell begins when Oblivion begins. Just like TR Morrowind is concurrent with Vvardenfell's timeline.

[Nomadic1]

Yes. But you can't assume that the PC won't finish the Ob MQ before coming to Hammerfell.

Gez makes a good point, and it is nearly impossible to get around. As far as I see it, there are three options available to us:
1) Quagmire is accessed through portals. These portals close when the PC finishes the MQ, therefore a big questline is a waste of time.

2) Quagmire is accessed through other means (ie; through dreams themselves). No portals this way, but we can have a big questline since these won't become inaccessible when the MQ is finished.

3) Come up with some bullshit excuse why Quagmire is accessible after the MQ is finished. I don't see this happening at all.

[Sload]

1. no mainquest.

2. the nightmares are bookended by a little quagmire zone. you start to run through, it zapped through a dozen nightmares, then come back and fight the gifters for the sigil stone.

[Hemitheon]

"the nightmares are bookended by a little quagmire zone. you start to run through, it zapped through a dozen nightmares, then come back and fight the gifters for the sigil stone."

that'll be cool. Special sigil stones that look like those weird eye things with multicolored fire maybe?

[Zalzidrax]

I don't think there should be a mainquest, but a questline, not tied to the gates, dealing with Quagmire and Vaermina's motives and involvement in messing around with Tamriel is near necessary. Something as world affecting as gates to differing realms Oblivion pretty much mandates storyline treatment.

[Eissaye]

"Quagmire is the realm of Vaernima."

Since it's a realm, wouldn't it be bigger than just one gate?

Mehrunes Dagon's realm is huge in the main quest.

[Gez]

Who said it would be just one gate? Whoever said that was obviously very tired, under the influence of pot, or talking out of his-or-her ass. Maybe all three. Probably all three.

[Eissaye]

people kept saying like the portal was in the tree. I figured that they meant The Tree meaning the only one.

I must be the one on pot... hmm I'll have to check and make sure.

[Gez]

It's like saying Dagon's portal is in the Oht-shaped monolith.

[bamman62]

Should be accessed by sleeping or waiting near a vaerminea wayshrine (about 300 meters away approx) there is probably a better way, but thats what I have came up with.

[Lighter Than Some]

Thats a neat idea. Ok, what if you fell asleep within prox of one. Then you wake up. Sky is all scary, stormy dark similar to what happends with reg gates only not red, more dark blue. I'm guessing this wouldn't too hard to script. Take control of the persons body, third person and you see yourself, unable to resist it, walking to and activating the gate.

[Deeza]

Make an effect with OBSE that's similar to the spell in Midas Magic Spells of Aurum Mod that sucks people into a black hole by forcing them to move. You go to sleep and randomly, some nights, the gate appears and you get woken up. The controls freeze and you find yourself being drawn helpless towards it...

While you're in Quagmire, you could freeze the controls at particularly creepy moments, releasing the player just before its too late so they can take action or teleporting them away just as the monsters are about to chow down (just like waking up at the climax of a bad dream).

I've also had a few ideas about how the Portals might get opened (and how you could access them). I made a small mod that's now in my Showcase that illustrates my ideas, if anyone wants to have a look (nothing as advanced as the sucked-into-portal thing, though, I wish I was good enough at scripting to do something like that).


And as for motivation... why not (this could be a theory someone suggests in-game, nothing definitive):

Vaermina is invading Tamriel to destroy it because she's terrified of it's existence. Just think about it. What's the only thing that scares a being made out of living nightmares? A planet that doesn't shapeshift into something hideous every few seconds.

Just an idea.

[Lighter Than Some]

Reminds me a bit of FEAR, in which timing and interfering pauses play a big role. Very much an awesome idea. That sounds like a good back story too.

v---- That would be kinda boring though wouldn't it? For a place this scary/creepy/strange you might need a reason for the player to want to go there. Certainly not as big of a quest as Oblivion main but something to drive the player to explore.

[Harke the Apostle]

Sload seems to think there shouldn't be a backstory (the reason for V. opening the gates shouldn't be explained in-game).

[Gez]

Make an effect with OBSE

We will not rely on OBSE.

And the gates will be exactly just like Dagon's gates, except for their look and the look of the realm beyond them. There won't be a totally different mechanism.

And it'll stay unexplained why it did happen.

[Deeza]

That's why I only proposed it as a theory someone could put forward during the game.

Might be interesting if there were all sorts of ideas flying around, which you heard about from talking to people in the streets.

This is obviously quite a philosophical one, perhaps a priest's or mage's idea. But there could be all sorts of rumours going around (just think of all the reasons people thought of for plague in Europe before they realised it was a bacterium).

Some kind of divine judgement on the rulers, perhaps?
Repent, for the end of the world is nigh, we are being punished for our wickedness?

It would make it more atmospheric if the player was given a feeling of fear and uncertainty among the populace - appropriate for the theme of a realm of nightmares, too - spreading terror among the people.

[bamman62]

A room full of slowly rising lava. Climb the platforms to a teleporter is on the last floor. Maybe the last one could be a life sized sliding puzzle. The completed puzzle would be an oblivion gate out.

[immortal_pigs]

The PC starts on a very small island with a house a few meters ahead. Once inside the PC is forcegreeted by a young human woman. The dialog options force the PC into losing ALL his/her stuff. The young girl than happily says to the PC that he/she will have to kill her if the PC wants his/her stuff back. The PC can either kill her, or leave her alive and take the door that will teleport him/her to the next place. This is more a disturbing than scary scenario.

The PC arrives in a village, the houses have no interiors. It could just as well be a copy from one of the OB villages. There will be a couple of villagers walking around, all of them walking away and turning their backs to the PC. If the PC moves close, they will move away. If the PC talks to a villager, the villager will just ignore and goodbye the PC. After 2-3 minutes a very young NPC will arrive and talk to the PC. In a very sweet and childish voice, the NPC will give the PC a 'suicide potion' or something like that. The NPC will ask the PC if he/she could just take the potion and get it over with. Taking the potion will transport the PC.

The PC begins in a cell with complete darkness. There will be a dozen Vampires around him that start to run at the PC one at a time. The Vamps have only one spell; Light on Self 'x' points for 1 second, Damage Health on Self 500. So the PC will hear the Vamps coming and see them for one second while they die at the same time. Finally the last Vamp will arrive, this one doesn't kill itself but still has the Light on Self Effect. The PC must defeat the Vamp to be transported.

[This one is probably already concieved in one way or the other.] The PC is starts in an Arena or some other crowded place. Through script, the PC cannot wear any armor or clothes. A bunch of NPCs will crowd around the PC start to ridicule him/her. The PC is either frozen/paralyzed, or the NPCs are very fast and follow the PC to everywhere. Possibly the PC will get to put its clothes back on after a few minutes. The NPCs will than take all their clothes off and start to attack eachother. Once everyone's dead, the PC is transported.

[Atmospheric] The PC is frozen, possibly above a copy of the Arena. Inside the Arena the PC gets to witness how an exact copy of the PC gets attacked and killed, or does very evil things. For example the copy gets attacked by wolves, or gets shot at by a bunch of archers at the same time. Or the PC gets paralyzed and attacked by rats and mudcrabs.

The PC starts atop a very high building, next to a row of seemingly random NPCs. The NPCs walk off of the building, into the depths. When talked to, they say that they are going to jump, or that they are going to die. They say it as if they're happy about it. The PC will have to jump down with them, and will have to try and land in a very small waterpool below. The PC will then notice that the NPCs have 'essential' enabled. They just stand up, walk to the the door at the bottom of the tower and jump down again, over and over. The door to teleport is inside a small cell in the tower.

[Hannibal]

this would be a rather long nightmare but still a decent one. the player enters a serene garden where a lavish party is taking place--a masquerade. the player enjoys themselves;meeting interesting people, partying, having a couple of drinks and finally partaking in dessert. however, the dessert is drugged. te player awakens the next day in a horrible death-ridden prison. the player is now a slave forced to perform backbreaking labor and is constantly tortured every single evening. this goes on for what seems like ages. finally after a time span of what seems to be years passes by, the player is given a chance to free themselves. however, the player must perform a task--fetch the eyes of one of the party guests for the warden. upon finding the guest, the player is given a second choice, spare the guest who is innocent or kill them and take their eyes. sparing the guest shifts the player to the next dream where only a few seconds of real time has passed by. killinf the guest results in the player being dealt hevy damage, a curse of some sort and a repeated nightmare once the player is free.

[RelinQ]

WOO! 6000th VIEW!

Anyway I read Immortal's idea, when you mentioned "the NPC will give the PC a 'suicide potion' " I just thought of...
Take the Red Pill... or the Blue Pill Sort of a funny reference.

Anyway I think something like some sort of potion or food that induces a possible hallocenogen, and a mystical as well is a good combination.

You could claim that "The portal is only visible to ones with a "something something" " - By which I mean; In this case the Mystica Item (sigil stone?) is the key to entering, but to find the door/portal you need to be under a certain and strange combination of spell effects.

I think it needs to be more like a Daedric quest rather than the main quest. but going into a strange portal is a bit odd with no story at all.

[jonarus_drakus]

A second take on 'falling from a tower' nightmare. By all means, force the player to jump off, but have them land in an enclosed room with a hell of a lot of doors, if they chose the wrong door, they respawn at top of town and have to jump again. One one door will be the exit. Would it be posible to have the exit door randomised? Of course, that brings about the posibility of less doors be re-randomised each time the player is forced to 're-spawn'.

Of course, choosing the wrong door in itself could lead to another completely different nightmare, but once that one is done you only get brought back to the room of doors instead of waking up all together...

[C-A-G-E]

A second take on 'falling from a tower' nightmare. By all means, force the player to jump off, but have them land in an enclosed room with a hell of a lot of doors, if they chose the wrong door, they respawn at top of town and have to jump again. One one door will be the exit. Would it be posible to have the exit door randomised? Of course, that brings about the posibility of less doors be re-randomised each time the player is forced to 're-spawn'.

You seem to be confusing "nightmarish and scary" with "boring". I, personally, would rather exit and uninstall the mod than do something as dull and repetitive than that.

Also you have to remember there is a difference between real life and ingame scary. Sure jumping of a tall tower in the real world is scary, but in oblivion it simply isn't (I often jump off white-gold tower just for kicks).

And Hannibal I don't think your idea would be feasible as I don't think it would be possible to do on the oblivion engine.

[caldfir]

Should be accessed by sleeping or waiting near a vaerminea wayshrine (about 300 meters away approx) there is probably a better way, but thats what I have came up with.

And the gates will be exactly just like Dagon's gates, except for their look and the look of the realm beyond them. There won't be a totally different mechanism.

I really like the idea of sleeping near the portal taking you through it - if it is possible to script this, it would be very atmospheric, as an additional way of entering the realm, to just entering the portal directly. If such scripting is NOT possible, then it might be interesting to place "suspicious bedroll"s conveniently near the portal, which also lead through it.

To clarify:
"Oh, look, a portal into Quagmire, which I can click to enter. Well, I think I ought to take a rest nearby on this 'suspicious bedroll'. Oh no! I'm in Quagmire!"