8-7-For

[Sload]

Dude just cause you dont like it doesnt mean its bullshit. You need to be more respecting of other people and their ideas.

[Haplo]

Let me rephrase. Stop it.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

why haplo?

[Haplo]

Because I said so. I expect a modicum of maturity from my modders and this thread has had almost none of it since PoHa! posted those three screenshots. No one has answered PoHa!'s challenge, but several people have been inclined to spam up the thread with idiot ideas. I will be clearing the spam out of this thread tomorrow.

[Sload]

This is me saying something stupid: Now now Haplo, put away your pointy-haired boss playset. You can have toy time later.

[Harke the Apostle]

I see what you're doing PoHa!!

You want to use another set as a place holder in Taneth and have the buildings replaced by pieces of the TR set when it's done. That way (providing the meshes are roughly the same size) you still might makes some progress on the design before the meshes are ready.

Don't you?

[Thrignar Fraxix]

could we perhaps retex our goldmoor set to have snow on it instead? (probably would require some slight mesh editing in some places to accound for snow piles...)

btw, harke, you are wrong

[aro101]

could we perhaps retex our goldmoor set to have snow on it instead? (probably would require some slight mesh editing in some places to accound for snow piles...)

No. never... Unless you want to edit and retexture those 32 Middle Class houses with your own hands. And also, it will really require some major mesh changes, if you want to make it look realistic. It's not just a matter of retexture. It requires mesh changes, addons, new textures, alpha channels, normalmaps... Though, this can be left for later, since it would be just a simple replacement. After you finish those meshes of course. Because I will not ask anybody to do that with this huge set. And I won't touch it with my own hands of course.

[Sload]

cmon aro, i know its a lot of work but i think TF has something there

[aro101]

cmon aro, i know its a lot of work but i think TF has something there

Uhm, well... Face it, this is the harsh truth, the balance between being cool and actualy finishing must be achieved.

[Lady Nerevar]

ok, what the fuck does snow have to do with taneth? its makes no sence via lore, geography, metaphysiscs, or any other shit i can come up with. so no. i asumed it was a joke to begin with, so didnt dignify it with a response.

and really, not to be a party pooper, but i think this thread wore of its novelty a while back. im against deleating the posts, i'd refer them split into their own thread.

[Gez]

It was all a big joke. Harke is right.

[aro101]

It was all a big joke.

O RLY?

And no, Harke isn't right. We only do not have the UC set for Goldmoor, and there is no way you can use what PoHa has shown as placeholders for the Upperclass district.

[PoHa!]

Guys, guys, guys!

Calmness and peace be upon you. Sheesh.

Yes, fine and all that, it was a joke.

1.) I'd hope you know me better than that.
2.) There's a file that I uploaded that anyone could see was not representative of the pics I took. (Granted, I never mentioned it, and you could assume that I decided for Brumneth after I had uploaded that, but that's all part of it).

For the record, it got taken in an entirely different direction than what I wanted it, what with people ranting and coming up with theories and playing pigsnatch with each other. At the very seedling of this idea, I wanted to play a joke to make people say "WTF? PoHa!, we should use GM models" and, more specifically, I wanted to make Aro to be the most taken aback (seems I should have gotten more accomplices to make it more believable, since from what I read on IRC, he never blinked an eye, sly dog that he is...). I do think I had each of the admins going, instead, at least for a moment; they probably won't admit it though.

Anyways, fear not, gurgle not, and spew not. Back to work.

[/joke]

Oh, and I told Gez (the other white meat of sly dog) via PM that it was a joke so that he'd edit his post calling me out on it. I can see where he could have assumed that Harke may have had the right idea; I actually mentioned on IRC that Harke was incorrect in his assumption, which is where TF got his "btw harke, you are wrong." Take that backstory of righteousness!

[Sload]

I'm mad cause you told Dexter to come agree with you but I had to come on my own.

I THOUGHT WE WERE MEANT TO BE POHA!.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

you know, I just realized I had taneth and elinhir mixed up in the great HF map of my brain. Thats probably why it didn't immediately register as a joke...

[PoHa!]

Alright, now that the thread has settled down, back to seriousnessness. Or such.

I've uploaded my latest work so far. But since no one ever dl's wip .esp's, here be some pics.

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/TanethOverview.jpg]Overview[/url]of Taneth so far.
A [url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/LowerClass.jpg]closer look[/url] at the lower class district.
Something that [url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/Temple.jpg]doesn't seem to fit[/url] at all. [pokes meshers for a HF temple]. Also, the town gate in the background there would need a unique door; I can change that, if need be.
I can haz [url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/ICanHazFort.jpg]fort mesh[/url]?

Tis all. Eat pie.

[aro101]

well, that's a tall gate that you want to have there I'm not in favour of this and not because I'm too lazy or don't want to add another mesh to the list (because that would be very easy this time). I'd prefer the road to stay a bit higher there and then keep it on the same height with the bridge and lowered on the other side of the river.

And I downloaded the esp So I can has be called The No One Ever now.

[PoHa!]

I'm not in favour of this and not because I'm too lazy or don't want to add another mesh to the list

Then I will be changing it next time I work on the .esp, first thing.

[El Scumbago]

Anybody want a fort concept?

[aro101]

Are you joking?

[Nemon]

I just looked at your overview picture, and here's a tip:

Divide Taneth into several worldspaces, divided by either houses or walls. When you detail your city, you'll know why.

[PoHa!]

I just looked at your overview picture, and here's a tip:

Divide Taneth into several worldspaces, divided by either houses or walls. When you detail your city, you'll know why.

To much of an FPS hit?

I would rather keep it all in the same worldspace, as dividing it up would completely wreck the flow of the city, and not be quite logical. If the game lags, I'll find a different way to optimize it, methinks.

[Morden]

I like your design so far PoHa, but just keep in mind that it may be necessary in the future... when Oblivion tries to load all those NPCs and their RAI packages the game could grind to a halt.

[Nemon]

To much of an FPS hit?
I would rather keep it all in the same worldspace, as dividing it up would completely wreck the flow of the city, and not be quite logical. If the game lags, I'll find a different way to optimize it, methinks.

Dividing it up doesn't wreck anything, as long as you keep the dividing subtle. Example, tall buildings and or walls creating boundaries. What you mean about "and not be quite logical" I'm not so sure about, since the Imperial City already uses this option. My progress on Rihad has clearly proved that when you add up houses, doors, clutter and NPCs (added for testing), you do get quite a performance hit, and if the overview picture is representative of how cluttered Taneth will be, I'm sure you'll see the same thing.

A tip with only good intentions, trust me

[PoHa!]

I trust you good intentions, actually.

By illogical though, I meant it would leave the player asking "Why did they have to wall off this district?" because that's what I'd have to do in some locations to create a different worldspace for the lower class (since I doubt the upper + middle class would cause much issue). Even forgiving myself of that, I would absolutely despise the loss of the different levels/roof exploration that I would have to sacrifice in some form or another. Add to it that the layout would make "subtle" dividing of the lower class nigh on impossible.

The Imperial City, on the other hand, made sense because it was such a large city. If they weren't going to split it up for technical or lore(?) reasons, they still likely would have put dividers in for easier navigation.

So, based on your input and testing, I'll be toning down the number of buildings in the lower class. It'll still be cluttered, of course; no worries about that. Just differently cluttered.

[El Scumbago]

I'd prefer the "differently cluttered" option myself, if possible.
Aro: I'm not joking at all. It's just that I expected you'd model one of the three UC concepts to see how it looks in-game, before proceeding to the the castle-palace. If you want to skip the UC part and get straight to the point, I can upload a complete palace concept tomorrow. However, I may not have enough time to make the interior's layout until then.

[aro101]

I'm working on the UC right now. I don't have to say that they are a lot harder to make than a LC house, do I? So well, if you want to see some UCs ingame first, I'm ok with that.

I visited Nemon's Rihad WIP few times. And I (the player) didn't had a feeling that it wrecked the city or whatever.

[Gez]

If Hammerfell cities have to be cut into three, four, five, six or one thousand and eight parts because they're getting bigger than the Imperial City, we have a problem. Unless some TR policy has changed while I wasn't looking and now the Hammerfell province is being built at Daggerfall's scale rather than Oblivion's scale, a city shouldn't have to be cut in parts for the sake of FPS, no more than Bravil or Chorrol are. If we look at Oblivion's example, the only cities that are cut in parts are those which have a separate worldspace for their castle courtyard, such as Skingrad or Anvil. Doing more than that thus strikes me as too much.

[Lady Nerevar]

i think part of the "problem" is with how much details these guys are adding. things like cups and tables and urns and all other kinds of misc items that weren't there in great quantities (if at all) in vanilla cities. vanilla cities were quite bare when it comes to misc detail. details are good though, so its not a problem.

[Sload]

They should never need to be more than two 'spaces, and they certainly shouldn't all be two. My rather rudimentary map of Rihad intended the castle courtyard to be a seperate worldspace, by the way. Hammerfell cities are, however, bigger on average than Cyrodiil's and more crowded.

I admit, though, I was surprised at how much stuff PoHa! had fit into Taneth. Cutting it down just a bit sounds like a good solution.

[El Scumbago]

Aro: Yes, I'd like to wait and see how the UCs will look in-game. And I know they're a lot harder, it's just that I thought you'd have uploaded a WIP pic so far. Will be looking foward to seeing the first ones.

[PoHa!]

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/TanethOverviewNew.jpg]New working version of Taneth, in overview form.[/url]

Yes, I have deleted quite a few buildings, (down to 30, including Fort, Temple) but beyond moving a few around to make it more cluttered now that it has less buildings, I haven't exactly "recluttered" the place yet. So if you post anything like "ZOMG TEH TANEYDH iZ SUXx N0WZ" I'll personally beat you with a deep fried Taxi Cab bumper.

And no, I'm not planning on using the MCInn for the UC houses... those be placeholders.

Also, incredibly long list of an explanation of those pretty red numbers, condensed into smaller text for nicerness:


UPPER CLASS

1. Mansion - Clavilla's Counselor - A rich man, he lives alone. Or at least, he did. He's dead now. (See the political/MQ discussion thread)
2. Mansion of the Duchess –
3. House – Redguard Male, Imperial Female – The Redguard first made his fortunes through adventuring, then through mercantile as he grew older. His wife spent most of her life as a sea captain; though she is retired now, she still enjoys going out to sea from time to time, though he gets seasick, so he always stays home. Rumors abound about the man's violent temper.
4. Mage's Guild – Altmer Female (Healer), Nord Male (Alchemist), Argonian Male (Mage) – The Altmer is head here, and came to HF in an attempt to change the Redguard's disposition towards certain types of magic (conjuration in particular). She sees Taneth as a safe location to begin change. The Nord Alchemist sells potions to help the guild pay its taxes. The Argonian is actually more interested in Yokudan culture than magic, though he can still teach some low level spells.

5. Temple to (Akatosh? Kynareth?)

MIDDLE CLASS

6. House – Imperial Male, Female - Home of the top Legion Officer of the city. His wife is a gossip who likes to visit the different districts of the city. Their daughter has been sick for years, and is said to be in a coma. In actuality, she was bitten by a vampire, and they keep her locked away in their basement.
7. Pawn Shop – Redguard Female – Obsessed with the Breton at #1. She closes shop early on Fredas to visit #1.
8. MC Inn/Pub – Redguard Male – Recently saved a young man (who lives at #10) from an attack by thugs. His business has nearly tripled as a result. He, however, is modest about the incident. The young man's father has become a regular, ready to retell the tale to any who would listen. He's also become a drunkard.
9. Blacksmith – Orc Male, Redguard Female (Maidservant) – The Orc has nearly become too old to practice his trade, and has been teaching his craft to the young Dunmer (who lives at #10). He spends his time either in bed or resting in a chair. The Maidservant brings him his food and keeps the rooms clean, though otherwise she has plenty of free time, and likes to gossip with customers, or around town when she isn't working.
10. House – 2 Dunmer Males, Dunmer Female (Father, wife, and son) – The father is a drunkard who visits #8 daily. His wife works at a farm outside of town. His son works at the nearby blacksmith (#9). Neither of them have realized that the father is using a large portion of their savings to purchase booze.
11. Fighter's Guild – Nord Male, Redguard Male, Khajiit Female (Main characters, more may be necessary) – The Nord is in charge of this chapter, and the Redguard is not happy about it (he feels that a Redguard should be in charge; BG in Elinhir, hates Nords anyways). He seeks to take charge of this chapter. The Khajiit is secretly in league with the Dura Ungai.

LOWER CLASS

12. Warehouse – 2 Redguard Females, 1 Orc Female – The 2 Redguards are sisters, the older of which owns the warehouse, and rents spaces inside to anyone who needs the room. She's supportive of the Empire, the Duchess, and all that new age stuff; she mostly handles the paperwork here. The younger sister could care less either way about the Empire; she seems satisfied enough to guard the warehouse without worrying about politics. The Orc is their adopted “sister,â€Â￾ who is fiercely protective of the other two. She is keen enough to spot the threat that the Dura Ungai pose to their business.
13. Healer – Redguard Male – An old Redguard man lives here, practicing ancient Yokudan healing techniques on those who need it bad enough to pay for it.
14. House – Imperial Male, Redguard Male, Redguard Female – The Imperial is the Dockmaster, who is rumored to have received the position through devious means, though there's no proof, of course. All in all, its a moot point, since he has no real definitive power over the docks. The two Redguards (married) are dockworkers, who originally owned the house. The Dockmaster lives on the top floor, the two Redguards live on the bottom; they dislike each other a great deal.
15. “Fleeting Spiritsâ€Â￾ - Pub – Nord Female – A small place for sailors to get their throat medicine before setting sale. No places to sit, no rooms for rent. The Dura Ungai pester her from time to time, but she has gotten adept at talking her way out of any troubles with them.
16. Dura Ungai Hideout/Warehouse – Bosmer Male, Redguard Male, Redguard Female, Imperial Female, Dunmer Male and Altmer Male – Willing to store and smuggle things that the other warehouse wouldn't dare; there is also a secret room here, which leads to the basement, where most of the seedy organizational stuff happens. The Redguard Male is the head of this chapter, taking care of the papers, money, and general organization, mostly. The Bosmer Male and the Imperial Female are information gatherers, bribing certain unnamed officials with money, smuggling favors, and/or sex. The Redguard Female and Altmer act as guards or thugs, sometimes pressuring people to store their goods in their warehouse instead of the other. The Dunmer was a slave that was smuggled into Taneth, yet the deal fell through, and he was kept by the Durai Ungai. In the years that they've kept him, he's worked to make himself useful as opposed to being useless overhead. He keeps the warehouse clean, and has recently been set up as the “new ownerâ€Â￾ to help avoid suspicion of too many complaints.
17. House – No One – Owned by the Dura Ungai, this place serves as a location where their clients can enjoy their drugs in peace, or as a personal pleasure palace. Officially, its simply additional storage that would be used in case of a space shortage in the main warehouse.
18. House – Redguard Male, Redguard Female – Owned by a lesser Legion Officer and her husband. The man enjoys gossiping at day, and the two of them like to eat a late supper together on their roof top
19. House – Redguard Female, Redguard Male – The woman is a hunter/scout, she used to be a pilgrim, but gave up her faith, and settled in Taneth. She has become good friends with the Blacksmith at #9, and purchases all her supplies there. Her boyfriend lives with her, and works at the docks; he dreams of becoming a famous Arena combatant, and fights in the 'Underground Arena,' and has gotten a decent reputation there. His girlfriend knows nothing about it, since she despises his dreams, and wishes that he would just settle like she has. He trains with his friend who lives at #18 on Saturdays.
20. “The Way-Back Pubâ€Â￾ - Redguard Male, Redguard Female – Retired Blades member who was forced into early retirement due to injuries (which should make him unable to run). His wife runs the pub, while he works on his fictional novels. The Wharf Rats hang out here.
21. Arrowsmith – Bosmer Male – He sells arrows, bows, and also does some repairs. From time to time he also hunts for food and furs which he also sells. After his son and daughter moved out, he has become more depressed and lonely; Despite the Imperial woman's invites for him to visit #22, he feels compelled to stay true to his dead wife, and has thusfar refused.
22. Brothel – Imperial Woman, Khajiit Woman, Dunmer Woman, Redguard Woman – Run by the Imperial woman, her business has been slumping as of late. From time to time, she would paint her clients as they made use of the services offered here, as a memento.

23. Metalsmith – Nord Male, Redguard Female - Likely doesn't sell anything that a steadfast adventurer would be interested in, but he does sell miscellaneous metal items, and he's willing to buy any number of odd things from across the empire 'for his collection.' His wife is known to be a horrible wretch of a woman, who always complains that he doesn't work hard enough. On Sundays, when his wife goes to worship, he makes a quick trip to #22.
24. House – Redguard Female – A priestess of Satakaal lives here, an aged woman embittered by the establishment of a different kind of god in her hometown. She still preaches of Satakaal from her rooftop.
25. “Broken Sling Innâ€Â￾ - Redguard Male, Redguard Female – An older couple owns and operates this inn, and like to joke about how they hate each other, telling jokes at each others expense, etc (apparently, he has been impotent since birth, and she stuffs her bra with Guardian Reeds). Their son has made first mate on a ship that has not long ago left Taneth, which they're very proud of, of course. They sell wine and rent rooms here, but no food, unless you gain access to the secret basement arena beneath the building, where fights occur nightly, a short supply of free food is supplied for combatants (but you can buy more, if need be).
26. House – Altmer Male – He does odd jobs for various people to scrape by. He is known to be too kind, allowing people to take advantage of him. In reality, he is working for the Necromancers of Scourg Barrow, and gathering information about the people of Taneth. Probably for nefarious reasons.
27. “gro-Dorgan's Shopâ€Â￾ - “Borus gro-Dorgan,â€Â￾ Orc, Male – As a child, this orc was adopted by a Redguard, Dorgan, who named and cared for him. As he grew older, he took on the last name of “gro-Dorganâ€Â￾to show his appreciation for taking him in. When his adopted father died, Borus took over Dorgan's house and pawn shop, simply adding “gro-â€Â￾ to the sign out front.
28. House – Redguard Male, Redguard Female – A young couple who recently moved to Taneth; they tend to keep to themselves, though they are trying to save up for a larger house, with dreams of a family. They've found life in Taneth harder than they imagined, however, and they take whatever odd jobs they can find.
29. House – Two Imperial Males, Imperial Female – A retired Navy Captain lives here with his son and his son's wife. The captain has gone senile, and thus requires constant care usually from the wife, because the son works daily at the docks. The old Captain believes that he is currently sailing for Cyrodiil, and that his son's wife is his first mate.


30. FORT



Any of that that isn't like, needs tweaked, etc., should be brought to my attention. Remember, I'm not the best at lore (read 24, 27), I'm assuming a few things about factions which may not be true (read 16, 25, & 26), and some of my ideas may just not fit (read 22).

If I hear no complaints, I'll assuming everything so far is good enough.

[Haplo]

ZOMG TEH TANEYDH iZ SUXx N0WZ

The layout works and I'll check the specifics at a later date

[PoHa!]

ZOMG TEH TANEYDH iZ SUXx N0WZ

The layout works and I'll check the specifics at a later date

I said (implied) NO!

[grabs a bumper off of a Kauffman Taxi Cab, and takes it to a nearby fast food restaurant for deep frying]

You have but a few hours. You're lucky it takes a while to deep fry metal.

And no, that layout doesn't work because, as point out by Sload in an IM, there's that rather large gap between Dockside LC and not Dockside LC, which appeared after deleting out some buildings and not realizing said gap.

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/PoHaEiFor/Taneth/TanethOverviewNewer.jpg]So I squished the city.[/url]

[TheGooch]

newer layout is way better, good goin PoHa!
and its good that it will be squished then it will have a less "cyrodiil" feel.
a completely unique feel that is hammerfell. keep up the good workageness.

make sure you video haplo getting beat up by that deepfried bumper. put it on Youtube or something

[Haplo]

My reply was assuming you would fix that gap as I knew you would, being the capable and knowledgeable modder that you are.

[PoHa!]

[PoHa! beats Haplo senseless with a deep fried bumper, extra crispy]

Okay, so progress has been kinda slow.

For one thing, I'm kinda starting to need some [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18756]furniture[/url], the [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18764]Upper class[/url] models, and the [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19575]docks[/url] would be nice too. (Actually, I could link a great many threads that contain things I wish I had at my disposal, so I'm not trying to pick on those peoples or anything)

Secondly and more annoying, pretty much every time I go to grab an object to bring it into the render window, the CS crashes. Ditto for nearly every other action outside of the render window, at times.

I can save with ctrl+S every five seconds, but loading up the CS every five seconds...err, takes longer than five seconds. I'm starting to wonder if my vertex shaded meshes (or more precisely, one or two in particular) are causing the CS to hiccup for some reason, or if I just need to clean up my computer some and try re-installing the CS.

Anyways, I'll take this opportunity to upload what I've done while I was waiting on that bumper.

[sirwootalot123]

ok, what the fuck does snow have to do with taneth? its makes no sence via lore, geography, metaphysiscs, or any other shit i can come up with. so no. i asumed it was a joke to begin with, so didnt dignify it with a response.

Knowing poha, it's probably a joke. I'd start bitching against joking with such an important concept, but hey, when I finished the stirk goldmine detailing I SUBMITTED it with a joke (absurd amounts of gold nuggets littering the floor) so I'd be a complete hypocrite if I did.

I know this is totally PoHa's claim, but back in the dark ages where I was fantasizing about doing this, before realising it'd best be left to someone with a work ethic, I wrote quite a summary of my ideas that i'd like to share in case they might fill in some blanks or something.
Taneth is 10% corruptly-rich upper class, 15% mostly-merchant middle class, and 75% densely packed lower class. The climate is very dry but relatively cool, being especially chilly at night. Especially in the lower class areas, streets are extremely narrow and there is little open space with most buildings sharing walls with each other; with a large part of the worst neighborhood of all climbing up the mountainside scrambling for room to build. Despite the crowding, there are hardly any multistory buildings (but plenty of basements). The dark brotherhood has an extremely strong base here, and the thieves and fighters guilds are about the size you'd expect for on of the major cities. In the center of Taneth is an ancient extremely ornate 7-sided yoku temple that has been re-purposed into the palace, surrounded by a disproportionately verdant oasis-like courtyard. At the equivalent of 5 stories, it is by far the largest building in the city, taller even than the walls and guard towers. Apart from some planters in front of the nicer homes and in the market, the "oasis" is the only green in the whole city (from plants, at least ) - to keep it so pretty, water is basically hogged by the palace, leaving the rest of the city dry as a bone most of the year. The docks to the south are the financial center of the city, with all sorts of fish being cleaned for sale and other similarly smelly businesses like a tannery. The docks are flanked by very few houses (again, smell) and many shops/guildhalls and an inn. The nicer part of the city in the NW corner has underground sewers, but most of Taneth has narrow open-air sewage channels that network across the city and collectively drain out by the docks.

[Sload]

thankyou wooty for proving your irrelevance