Quest plan for map2 (The Sacred East)

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:20 pm

My plan is to stick to the same amounts of misc quests that we had in map1. So a town like Alt Bosara is going to have the same amount of quests like Tel Ouada. So:

THE MISC QUESTS

Baldrahn: 1 quest
Hla Bulor: 1 quest
Verulas Pass: 1 quest
Adurin-Ouaka: 2 quests
Tel Mothrivra: 2 quests
Telvanni Library: 2 quests
Alt Bosara: 3 quests
Marog: 3 quests
Tel Muthada: 3 quests
Helnim: 4 Telvanni sided quests and 4 imperial sided quests (I haven't forgotten the old Darconis plans, Lud)
6-8 quests in the wilderness

QUESTLINES
The Fighters Guild
The Thieves Guild, somewhat bigger then the previous two.
The Imperial Cult, very small
The Imperial Legion (?), very small as well
The Imperial Archaeological Society, with Theo's Kemel-Ze questline?
The Boethian Cult
The East Empire Company

House Telvanni,
The Helnim(Darconis) Gambit
Quests for Vaerin
Quests for Llenari Telsaran?

There you have it, the plan for the map2 quests. Did I forget something? Do you have any additions?

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:47 pm

The Mad Lord of Helnim could probably have one of those 'bonkers' ("ash yams"/"dissapearance of the Dwarves") types quest for Telvanni players. Nigh-on incomprehensible/impossible, but with good rewards. Just a one off.

I'd also say that Marog could get a two/three-quest Telvanni-only mini-line (think LGNPC'd Maar Gan). Other Telvanni/House towns should generally get at least one quest for members of that House.

Otherwise, all makes sense.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:16 pm

Remember, there will be two FGs, two MGs and two TGs, one each in Necrom and Helnim. In each case one of these should probably only have a couple of quests. Due to the corruption in Helnim, I'd arrange things as follows:
-Helnim FG: Somewhat thuggish quests. The FG could be doing enfocer type jobs for local mafia, etc. 6?
-Necrom FG: Very minor, just some simple quests. 4?
-Helnim MG: Run-down due to corruption in the city, etc. Members either try to ignore the outside world or to make a quick buck on the wrong side of the law, etc. 3-4?
-Necrom MG: Mixed up in trying to investigate dunmer burial practices. 8?
-Helnim TG: Run riot in the city; plenty of work here. 9?
-Necrom TG: Scared of the Ordinators in mourning, do little. 2?

Also, Tel Ouada only had so few quests because it was so important in the MQ. IMO, it should have 5.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:12 pm

Regarding Helnim Guilds, I have some points of contention with what Lud says.

This is primarily because when NPCing Helnim I was not able to find too much in the way of info and backstory, and just 'made it up as I went along'. My only real source was the Darconis Gambit post.

Anyway,

Contention 1: There is no Mages Guild in Helnim.

(There is the IAS, though, of course)

Contention 2: The Fighters Guild I don't see as particularly thuggy, I see them more as an extremely limited 'mercenary guild' (which is what the FG is - they're not some kind of 'crusaders for justice' ÃƒÂ¡ la Oblivion), who don't really have any power, but are being called on more and more by the citizenry to kill of bandits etc., what with the Gov' and the Legion being useless, and the Militia's reach limited. They're not corrupt, they're just not actively 'fighting for the right' - they do whatever work comes their way, although they might sympathise with the Knight Protector (Caedan Jorval)'s Militia and try and pull of some 'good guy' stunts.

Contention 3: As an easy target for the Militia, and a way for those guys to get some favour and do some good, the TG has been driven somewhat underground in Helnim. They have undercover contacts in all of the seedy taverns, but they're not just longing there out in the open. The actual base of operations is the basement of Falkoth's Clothier store. If I were in control, their quests would revolve around getting back at/humiliating Caedan Jorval, freeing/helping the lower-ranking members who were captured in the Militia's crackdown, and then doing massive heists all over the shop. (Helnim Hall has a very tempting vault stacked with loot that could be broken into)

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:30 pm

I don't know if it is a good place to ask, but what is the name of the indoril councillor at Akamora and where does he live (in which building)?

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:48 pm

Why is it that the FG must be so minor?
And what are the actual larger scale plans for the FG?
Or will they always play but only a minor role?

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:34 pm

To be fair, if you look at Morrowind's quests (in comparison to those of Oblivion), that's what the FG is. You get promoted by doing jobs, not by doing the heroic epic mission of the Oblivion FG.

In Morrowind, the only 'storyline' to the FG is that the head is in league with the Cammonna Tong against the Thieves Guild, and some don't approve of this. This storyline is gradually teased out by doing quests for two of the five or so quest givers. Three of them just give some fairly bog-standard quests, as the FG should. When we need to work out the 'how to become Master' storyline, then we can implement such things, but not every Map's Guild need/ought to work towards that.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:37 pm

I like yours better, BC. You are the Helnim authority around here.
That said, I like the idea of some extra dodginess in Helnim; it plays up to the dehumanisation of people as they're surrounded by corruption, etc. (The impossibility of being a good man in a world of bastards) This is what Helnim is about, know what I mean?

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:48 pm

I'll stick some more corrupt members of the FG in there/mix some dialogue up a bit (currently there are: three vendors (arms, armor, armory) who have a friendly rivalry, it isn't developed whether they'd be corrupt or not, but probably not; one kinda dumb but tough Imperial gal, who could be edging on corrupt; one pompous OTT crusader do-gooder Wood Elf - he could have rivalry with corrupt members; one sick Wood Elf who's staying at home - bit of a wimp, could be corrupt; one fairly non-descript Nord female; and the leader, a badass female Redguard - honorable).

W/re: to corruption though, how do you show mercenaries as being 'corrupt'? Should they be asking for more pay than they deserve/deliberately botching missions or some such? Any ideas?

And I'm glad you like my ideas.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:57 pm

What I mean is to show how honourable people do dishonourable things in such circumstances as are found in Helnim.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:01 pm

Okay. That's more of a thing that should be developed in quest lines, then. And it sounds good. Should make for some nice moral dilemmas/choice:consequence action.

When we get on to full designs of lines we can think about it then.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:57 pm

Oops, there should be a mages guild in Helnim. If there's one in the Necrom foreign quarters it defenately has to be in Helnim too to offer guild guides to work. Could you check if you can tuck them in somewhere (Helnim Hall for example) We can always ask someone from interiors to deal with it if you want.
I don't remember being a fighters guild in Necrom but with the new claims we can make one too. It will allow some competition for the ordinators and that will lead to interesting quests. With two guildhalls each, their questlines need to be bigger than the ones of map1.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:21 pm

Why do you need a MG in Helnim for guild-guides to work? And they can just teleport to Firewatch, surely?

And there's no space in Helnim as it is, so it'd be pretty much out of the question to somehow sneak a MG in there.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:08 pm

Some people might not use Map 1 with Map 2, just so you know.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:52 pm

multi map quests should be in a separate .esp. I think I said this somewhere at some point. Either that or a better idea that I can't remember.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:16 am

Guild guides teleporting you places does not count as a quest, TF. But yeah, we can't have Map 2 dependent upon Map 1 Or could we?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:44 am

That would stupid. People would have to use both maps! We wouldn't want them playing the mod the way we intended them to, after all.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:45 am

Especially not when there are lots of other great mods that people have a preference for over Map 1 which take up the same space.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:32 am

So we don't intend to release our work as a single coherent mod but rather six separate mods?

Fuck it, just merge the two maps and make them delete map 1. It's the only thing that makes sense and we're going to do it eventually.

I'm glad I'm such a dipshit.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:44 am

Sorry for not being able to control the whims of the mod-playing individual darling.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:20 am

Mages' Guild placement doesn't always have to make sense or optimise convenience. Think about Ebonheart, the Imperial capital of the whole darn shebang. No Mages' Guild there: all the way up in Vivec. Caldera, a nothing town: Mages' Guild. The distance between Vivec Foreign Quarter and Ebonheart isn't far shy of the distance between Balmora and Caldera, or Caldera and Ald'Rhun.

My point is that as long as there is some way to get to the place as a discrete unit, we should not sacrifice the integrity of the mod just for the convenience of people who do not want to experience the whole thing.

Then again we could revive the idea of add-ons. This previously degenerated to just other mods, but adding in an optional guild guide to Map 2 would be an appropriate subject in my view, even if they only have a Kiosk in Helnim

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:51 am

If I was a total TR noob and visited Helnim, I would expect a mages guild to be there, even if it's just a small kiosk like Jale said. Else we need to probably answer countless of noob questions; Where is the mages guild in Helnim?, etc. Our transport sytem is also kinda dependant on it because this was the only quick way to go from the east to the west or vice versa. Therefore I would happily open up an interior claim for the mages guild, probably somewhere in Helnim Hall.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:56 am

Put in an MQ waystation, like in Bal Oyra.
It won't need any quests; just chuck it in a basement in the Hall, with a guild guide and maybe one of two service people.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:54 pm

Meh, I don't really care, but I liked Helnim not having a MG. Broke the monotony of "Imperial Town? All Imperial Guilds please."

And Sload is right. Map 2 should at least be dependent on Map 1 (people who are so objectional to the use of Map 1 can use EnchantedEditor or whatever to remove the dependency; and we could even release a 'discompatiblity plug-in' that removed all elements of Map 1 dependency from Map 2, so that the above would be bug-free).

Remember - it's not like we're profiting from DLs or anything; we're not a company. We have no obligation to minorly increase our potential number of downloaders, and so-doing butcher inter-map-travel (now that would get some severe WTFs. Screw no MG in Helnim, or the dependency on Map 1: people would care if fast travel wasn't availiable through Maps) and cross-map quests.

Map 2 must be dependent on Map 1 - we lose nothing, we gain several important, useful, fun things.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:56 pm

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:Meh, I don't really care, but I liked Helnim not having a MG. Broke the monotony of "Imperial Town? All Imperial Guilds please."

From Vanilla: Caldera. Yeah, it has a Mages Guild. But you can look for the Fighters Guild for a long time. Same with the Thieves Guild. No Legion or Cult, either.
Pelagiad. Unless you count the guy in jail as being Thieves Guild presence, you have none of the Imperial Guilds there. And while you have the Legion, nothing cool is happening here.

From us: No TG nor FG in Bal Oyra, and the MG there doesn't really count, it's just a relay for fast travelers. This, by the way, is something that is relatively easy to justify anywhere where there should be something because it's remote, enough, but where it can't be big because the town is small.

fanfas · Post by **fanfas** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:04 pm

On the dependency thing... i guess we should try and make all maps as independent as possible, because the time that is needed to release them, people can play 1 map and don't play others because they don't like them much or jut have mods that use the same space and like them more.

In the end when all maps are released, then we should make a last plug-in with questlines spaning all/more then 1 map, making the mod then dependent, but only then. That's just my 2 cents anyway.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:31 pm

fanfas wrote:On the dependency thing... i guess we should try and make all maps as dependent as possible, because the time that is needed to release them, people can play 1 map and don't play others because they don't like them much or jut have mods that use the same space and like them more.

In the end when all maps are released, then we should make a last plug-in with questlines spaning all/more then 1 map, making the mod then dependent, but only then. That's just my 2 cents anyway.

No

This would make maps 1-5 suck big hairy fat donkey balls, think how crappy the Telvanni quests would become. I'm in favour of BC's solution; people can fix it up themselves if they want. I also support merging the two maps once map2 has a quested version out.

However, back on the topic of quests in map2.....
How many NPC claims are done? Can we get a status report on each area? If there are a couple of adjacent areas, we can make miscs for those, etc.

EDIT:here's the status of each of the detailing areas. I'd like to see discussions opened with the dialogue writers for those claims that are still in progress with a view to getting quest plans together.
1: NPC/dialogue
2: Finished
3: NPC/dialogue
4: Finished
5: reviewing
6: NPC/dialogue
7: NPC/dialogue
8: Detailing
9: Detailing

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:30 pm

Should I open up misc quest claims for the NPC claims in progress? That would be a good place to discuss the coming misc quests.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Yeah, that'd do it. Make sure the NPC maker is collaborating in those; they get first dibs on quest designs for their area

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:37 pm

If they are competent with quests

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:40 pm

Quest design is kind of like NPC/Dialogue work, as long as you are a tr_modder with originality you can do it.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:41 pm

You don't even need any modding skills, so you don't have to be a TR_modder even.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:48 am

I agree with Sload, BC and Lud, even though I'm no TR-modder (so what's my opinion worth anyway?). If you design the maps on the assumption that they are not dependent on each other for the purpose of satisfying a few idiots, who prefer other mods to TR, then you are essentially breaking the mainland Morrowind project up into 6 smaller mods instead. I think this will have the effect of breaking the players' immersion and will present some "wtf" moments when things don't quite connect.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:08 pm

What are the current plans for the East Empire Company (on Map 2 and in general)? Mainly thinking about:

- size of questline (if any)
- main locations
- any interaction with other factions

Sorry for resurrecting a fairly old thread, but it seemed relevant.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:28 pm

No, it's fine - as long as it's relevant, it is good to open up such discussions.

Anyway, to my awareness, this conversation between me and Haplo is about the only talk there's been about the EEC recently.

Me:

Just a quick question: how do people think I should handle the EEC Headquarters in Helnim Hall? Are they as corrupt as the Governor; are they efficient but powerless; are they 'really the ones in control'? What's going on with them?

Haplo:

I'd really appreciate it if you could make them efficient, but with only very local power.

I think I left the dialogue pretty vague for the EEC, so they're pretty much a 'blank slate', within reason.

Unless there's some ancient plans that I wasn't here for, then that's pretty much all there is. You could check my dialogue and NPC-work in Helnim to get some ideas, perhaps, but I don't think I had any plans or anything that I was working with.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:41 am

Ace, because I was thinking that The Flin Galore quest for the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20489]q2-9-Mis[/url] claim could maybe be incorporated into the EEC line. Either as a direct EEC quest or by the quest giver, Merro Galvix, moving to the EEC headquarters after the quest and only then being able to give you some extra side quest (once you were a member).

It doesn't have to be exclusively EEC. I seem to remember Beth fighters guild quests that you can do without actually being a fighters guild member.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:49 am

Sure, sounds cool. It'll definitely be started as a misc. quest, though. I suppose someone in the EEC could point you to it as well.

Regarding where the EEC is in Map 2, it's just Helnim.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:47 pm

My ideas for the EEC quests so far. Comments and suggestions would be great.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:24 am

Very good! Your quests fit very well into the situation of Helnim and illustrate it in more detail. Moreover they also fit the kind of jobs you can get from EEC and are not boring. Your ideas for folowing quests are also promising, perhaps you can involve some other EEC characters in them. How many there will be in total? I would go for 8-12...

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:27 am

I planned on having the highest available position be Officer or Deputy (so you can't become the mainland Factor), so about 12 quests would seem appropriate.