The Missing Gate/Fortress

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:31 am

Question: What happened to the Black Gate from Cyrodiil to Morrowind? It's supposed to be a Dunmer fortress.

Likewise, what happened to Ald Erfoud, Fervinthil, and the Isle of Vounoura?

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:55 am

The Black Gate from Arena and 2920? Is it really said somewhere it's between Cyrodiil and Morrowind? From my recollection of Arena, it was not too far from Mournhold, though Arena's geography has been retconned completely. Still, nothing said it's a border gate as far as I know.

I don't know the other places. Sources for them?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:55 am

A TIL search:

Black Gate:

2920 wrote:"This is excellent news," said the Potentate carefully. "I hope the Dunmer will honor the terms. We might have asked for more. The fortress at Black Gate, for example. But I suppose the Prince knows what is reasonable. He would not cripple the Empire just for peace."

...

"We have been betrayed," she gasped. "The Imperial Army has seized the Black Gate."

...

"From what we've learned, while the Prince was returning to Cyrodiil to the south, a second Imperial Army came down from the north," said Vivec to his stony-faced compatriots. "It is reasonable to assume Juilek didn't know about the attack."

"But neither would it be unreasonable to suppose that he planned on being a distraction while the Emperor launched the attack on Black Gate," said Sotha Sil. "This must be considered a break of the truce."

...

"My Lord Vivec," he said, bursting into the back room. "You must believe me, I knew nothing about the attack on Black Gate until after it happened. We will, of course, be returning it to your care forthwith. I wrote you a letter to that effect at your palace in Balmora, but obviously you're not there," he paused, taking in the many new faces in the room. "I'm sorry, let me introduce myself. I'm Juilek Cyrodiil."

The Famous Places of Tamriel wrote:Dagoth Ur is located in Morrowind province. Every Dark Elf knows the fiery mountain, however for the Eternal Champion, he had to do an errant for the ruler of Ebonheart first before he can get the location of the entrance of the mountain. The ruler of Ebonheart wanted the champion to recover the Hammer of Gharen in a dungeon known as the Black Gate. After finishing the errant, the champion was finally able to get into the dungeon of Dagoth Ur and recover the last piece.

Given the mention of a dungeon, I would be inclined to think it would be a fortress of some sort, of moderate importance. The mention of "Gate" says to me it either has a massive gate or is at an important mountain pass. It would probably be near the border. Since Bethesda didn't like to abandon continuity between games prior to Oblivion, it is mentioned in both Morrowind and Arena.

Ald Erfoud

2920 wrote:at Ald Erfoud "How far is the Imperial Army?" asked Vivec.

"Two days' march," replied his lieutenant. "If we march all night tonight, we can get higher ground at the Pryai tomorrow morning. Our intelligence tells us the Emperor will be commanding the rear, Storig of Farrun has the vanguard, Naghea of Riverhold at left flank, and Ulaqth of Lilmoth at right flank."

Only one mention. Vivec established his headquarters there during the war for some undetermined period. It is a day from the Pryai River.

If the old Riverbridge, before it was moved to a river, is in need of a name would Ald Erfoud suffice?

Fervinthil

2920 wrote:"The Prince and the Emperor are en route to take possession of Ald Lambasi as our truce agreed. It is certainly typical of the Cyrodiil to assume that their concessions are negotiable, while ours are not," Vivec pulled out a map. "We can meet them here, in this village to the north-west of Ald Lambasi, Fervinthil."

...

A late summer squall blew through the small village, darkening the sky except for flashing of lightning which leapt from cloud to cloud like acrobats. Water rushed down the narrow streets ankle-deep, and the Prince had to shout to be heard by his captains but a few feet away from him.

"There's an inn up ahead! We'll wait there for the storm to pass before pressing on to Ald Lambasi!"

The inn was warm and dry, and bustling with business. Barmaids were rushing back and forth, bringing greef and wine to a back room, evidently excited about a famous visitor. Someone who was attracting more attention than the mere heir to the Empire of Tamriel. Amused, Juilek watched them run until he overheard the name of "Vivec."

Fervinthil is/was a small village northwest of Ald Lambasi. It has/had an inn. IIRC Ald Lambasi was placed on Map 4 north of Verarchen Hall. So it might be better if it was ruined, or only a small bug hut settlement.

Vounoura
It is an island a month's sail away from Morrowind. It is where Morag Tong agents go to retire / wind down. There is no point in adding it, unless there is some kick-arse Morag Tong quest about it.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:02 pm

These are cool names for villages then when we start the detailling for map4.

aro101 · Post by **aro101** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:11 pm

IMHO, the black gate should obviously be a dunmer fortress. Just translate the name or something and it will be ok

I wantz it somewhere!

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:57 pm

I think Gez's uber-epic-stronghold claim for Map 3 was potentially to be the Black Gate (with a new name).

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:18 pm

If you are refering to Bis'Andryon, it is close to the eastern edge of Morrowind. One could assume that if the Reman Empire was attempting to take Morrowind, it would be invading from the west.

From what I remember there are 3 passes into Cyrodiil: Dunmereth in Map5, Septim's Gate in Map4, and Shadowgate in Map4. Couldn't one of the two in Map4 be revamped into a Dunmer stronghold? That way there would be 1 Imperial Gate, 1 Dunmer Gate, and 1 Nord Gate.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:25 pm

Remember that this thing also needs to be a dungeon that could be raided by the hero of Arena. It's not gonna be a fully functional border-fortress.

In fact, even the idea of it being a border fortress is pretty implausible, seeing as such a key tactical location wouldn't be just left to ruins.

Jale · Post by **Jale** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 pm

Well borders do shift, and it is entirely plausible that in the 1300 years since the events of 2920 the border has been moved or the fortress altered, especially considering the 'new management'. I for one could envisage an Imperial fort on top of an old Dunmeri Stronghold, with walls below bricked up...but means to get around that into the old underfort.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:42 am

You're forgetting Vernim pass, Hemitheon. You know the impressive pass which uses the stronghold architecture. If one of the passes is a dunmer stronghold called Black Gate, this is the closest you'll get.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:48 am

That or the unnamed stronghold in Map4 at -17, -19. It's along the Velothi Mountains and it looks REALLY creepy.

EDIT: or the stronghold at Rilt Pass in Map5

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:59 am

IMO Vernim Pass is really, really crappy. It could work as the Black Gate though.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:38 pm

I cant find that one. What are the coordinates?

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:11 pm

I think Dunmereth actually goes to Skyrim. Cyrodiil didn't extend that far.

And wtf mate Vivec has a palace in Balmora?

And Ald Erfoud is now the name of the settlement where Riverbridge used to be.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:38 pm

Haplo wrote:And wtf mate Vivec has a palace in Balmora?

The Queen of England has a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmoral_Castle]palace in Balmoral[/url], so why wouldn't Vivec have one in Balmora?

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:51 pm

2920 says the Tribunal had a palace at Balmora. Dialogue for the Telvanni Library which was approved by Slaod says it was destroyed by an earthquake/fire.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:58 pm

Hemitheon wrote:I cant find that one. What are the coordinates?

Don't know the co-ords, but here are some screenies:
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?picture=Vernim_Pass_01.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=5[/url]
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?picture=Vernim_Pass_02.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=5[/url]

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:02 pm

I didn't actually read that dialogue, you know.

I don't give a shit about Arena and I don't give a shit about "2920." Erfoud's an OK name for a city I suppose. Black Gate is a shitty name.

also hahahahahaha
"Bethesda didn't like to abandon continuity between games prior to Oblivion"

Pneumatic that's such bullshit. Bethesda abandoned continuity left and right. If you think its failure to stick to what it had said before (an idea you expressed in your little Corn Syrup douchebaggery) is the problem with Oblivion, you have a lot of introspective thinking to do.

Really, all of this is stupid.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:04 pm

I see it was renamed Rilt Pass in the most recent Map5

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:41 pm

Sload wrote:I didn't actually read that dialogue, you know.

Y'know, pretending you did something that you didn't doesn't make you a tortured artist, it just makes you an ass.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:29 pm

Vernim/Rilt Pass is awesometacular, Nomadic, why don't you like it?

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Well then what's the Core's decision? That dialogue is being added as we speak, meaning we are wasting someone's time.

Whatever the Core's decision, do not return the dialogue to me. I am finished with the dialogue so if it needs tweaking give it to someone else.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:59 pm

About what?

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:00 pm

Implement the dialogue, it will get reviewed, at that time we can always change it.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:00 pm

The Dialogue for Map2.1 is being added by BC. Sload has not approved it though you said he did. Which means it will either have to be removed and checked (this time for real) or continue on course and let it possibly contain flaws.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:11 pm

He told me to it's not my fault, he just didn't want to 'cause he's a lazy betch. Anyway I'll see it when I proofread it.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:35 pm

I never said I didn't approve it.

Here's what I know about the dialogue from intuition:

1. It is correct in its facts.

2. It meets every requirement set out before you.

3. I would not be happy with it, because though it is correct, it is not expansive or new.

4. I do not believe my expectations would be satisfiable without frustration.

The Telvanni library is a joke and should be removed from the map. Two velothi domes in the middle of nowhere? And who set up the claims for Hemitheon anyway? I don't know anything about this

You're not doing lore, you're doing bullshit. The same bullshit that makes us wonder why Black Gate and Ald Erfoud haven't been included in our maps. The same bullshit that drives the pedantic conversations over how many legionnaires to kill a bonelord or god-know's-what that they have over at TESF. You are all excellent readers - to a fault in fact - but you're horrible storytellers. You're making a mod here, so it really doesn't matter how many stories you can read, you need to be good at the telling part.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:32 am

As a matter of fact, the Telvanni library is becoming a metaphor for the separation of church and state, with parallels to the role of the vatican in Italian affairs before the treaty of Rome. However, it goes deeper than that, with the library acting as somewhat of neutral field between the various factions while each of them is subverting it silently. In addition to this, none of them are willing to admit that they're corrupting what they believe to be the "only sacrosanct thing".
So you have a whole community of doublethinkers who subtly screw with things while
1)knowing that they're doing this
2)knowing that they would never do such things as to alter records in the library

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:20 am

Sload wrote:I didn't actually read that dialogue, you know.

I don't give a shit about Arena and I don't give a shit about "2920." Erfoud's an OK name for a city I suppose. Black Gate is a shitty name.

I'm the kind of person which likes to cover every base, in some way. *shrugs* If a 2920 place name can be added somewhere, I say do it. Like with Ald Erfoud with that old Riverbridge. Most of the names from there are a lot better than the names TR has come up with.

Pneumatic that's such bullshit. Bethesda abandoned continuity left and right. If you think its failure to stick to what it had said before (an idea you expressed in your little Corn Syrup douchebaggery) is the problem with Oblivion, you have a lot of introspective thinking to do.

Really, all of this is stupid.

My problem with Oblivion was that I only wanted to play it once, not that they didn't use the names of a few cities. The fact that they scrapped what might have been interesting, like rainforests, only made it worse.

Haplo wrote:Vernim/Rilt Pass is awesometacular, Nomadic, why don't you like it?

Personal taste.