Hammerfell Factions

[Rathious Galent]

so why not apply my idea to the Kogotong instead? if you dont like the idea, then obviously don't use it

[mnkyslut]

Instead, there are two seperate institutions to replace the Mages Guild. They are:

1. The Imperial Archeological Society.
2. The Underground War of Mages of Varying Moral Values in the Dragontail Mountains.

Good idea to split them, but I disagree that it should still be a single faction.

Why the change?
Before this, the same basic ideas were all part of Mages' Guild. But the idea of getting excavations and fighting necro's to work as a single story just didn't seem to work. So my first idea was just to add the IAS and keep the MG's activity in the Dragontails.

I agree that dig site quests for the Mages guild are out of place. However, I strongly feel that the MG and IAS should be separate factions. Truly, IAS should not be related to the MG at all.

I mean, it would make sense if a MG member were researching a particular path of information that s/he would contract someone to retrieve data from a dig site, but more than likely, only if it were magical in nature.

Locating and retrieval of artifacts like coins, mugs, crystals, paintings, ancient bones, etc. should be the focus of an institution far removed from the MG.

Similarly, if a dig site needs protection, it may contact the MG or FG. If it needs an enchantment broken or a magical lock opened, again, it would probably contract the MG. Heck, even defining these contracts between institutions could be mini-sized quests in their own rite.

[Gnomey]

I think you're reading the post wrong. The IAS and the independant mages already have nothing to do with the MG as far as I can see. The MG will only be a guild that offers services and beds to members.

[mnkyslut]

I read it as the IAS and rogue mages as being splinter groups of the MG. If you're saying that each of the 3 are already separate, then my bad.

[Gnomey]

I don't want to put words into Sload's mouth, but yes. I'm pretty certain that they were seperate from the start. (Almost the start, at least).

[Farao51]

I recall dark brotherhood from daggerfall...

Ah, well, but no vampire clan as a separate faction?

[Gnomey]

There will probably not be a vampire clan.

The Dark Brotherhood will simply not have any quests, or at least no faction questline or anything like that. It will still be in Hammerfell. Actually, it might not be, but that would be because of the restrictions of Oblivion's scale more than anything else. If they can be fit in they probably will be.

[Gez]

Going from Daggerfall, there were a few vampire factions in northern Hammerfell. The Seleru, Khulari and Anthotis.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Vampirism

The safest bet is that they won't be in Hammerfell. Recreating the gameplay mechanism of Daggerfall vampires is just too much work for too little payback.

[redsrock]

I know this probably isn't the best place to ask this, but the thread I was going to ask in is locked. What does the "Raha" stand for in "Raha Treigo of Rihad"? Does it mean King/leader/etc?

[Sload]

Treigo is simply "Raha," which means roughly "strong man," and has a connotation of "brother." Basically comrade for the ragu.

[redsrock]

Okay. Thanks, Sload.

[Akul]

Going from Daggerfall, there were a few vampire factions in northern Hammerfell. The Seleru, Khulari and Anthotis.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Vampirism

The safest bet is that they won't be in Hammerfell. Recreating the gameplay mechanism of Daggerfall vampires is just too much work for too little payback.

Because it is wasteful to re-create the gameplay of DF vampires does not mean that those clans can't be there. They could stay as minor factions that fight one another and player gets few quests to help in those wars or something. Many good storylines can be written here.

[immortal_pigs]

This is about the Kogotong. I've searched the forums for stuff on this faction, but there isn't really that much yet. I see that the basic idea has already been layed out for it though.

I think the Kogotong should be a very different faction than the Morag Tong and Dark Brotherhood. A few points:
- The Kogotong should not be religious in the sence that assassinatians are done in service of Mephale/Sithis/Yoku God. I think it would be cool to have a non-religious assassin faction for a change.
- The Kogotong should have it's own sub-sections and hierarchie that is different form the MT and the DB.
I see the Kogotong as a more diverse assassins faction, with different sub-sections. Every sub-section should haev it's own moral code and values.
- I think it'd be interesting to have a female leader for the Kogotong [no religious role]. Just to show that the Kogotong is different from the MT and DB.

I have already made up 4 different sub-sections for the Kogotong. They don't discriminate wether you're mage, combat or stealth. Instead, they each have a different type of tasks and ways of completing them. The sub-sections have made up names.

Sub-Sections:

The 'Savarkutei' [Slaves to the trade] : Most important for this sub-section is unfaltering loyalty and obedience. The Savarkutei lack any morals of their own [or at least they are forbidden to dissobey], they simply embody the morals of their taskmasters. Savarkutei are widely used for a variety of tasks. Some which are menial and boring, others which are utterly cruel and unthinkable. [Meaning they could be asked to kill a pet, an innocent beggar or even a child, though I doubt anyone of the Crown would have a need for that.]

A Savarkutei that doesn't accept a task get's killed. Simple as that. After years of service most Savarkutei end up insane or commit suicide. Those that remain are usually emotionless sociopaths. Savarkutei work alone most of the time, though this can vary. In a way, they are the most flexible sub-section.


The 'Jabari Seitei'[Competitive Honor] : This sub-section centres on the tasks. Jabari Seitei get the most difficult and challenging tasks. Their tasks are mostly of a more 'alternative' type. Jabari Seitei do not get politically significant tasks, though. In this faction honor comes through competetion. He who has killed the most in the most awesome way gets the most respect. This sub-section is basically for those that see their job as something fun and as a hobby; a competitive sport. Also, Jabari Seitei always work alone. They are the most 'creative' sub-section.


The 'Aboto Seitei'[Collaborative Honor] : This sub-section centres on teamwork, trust and caution. Aboto tasks are pretty large-scale for an assassin. They therefore require multiple assassins to complete. Aboto are always grouped into certain teames. Some teames might focus on balance, others on pure offense/speed/agility/efficiency. Aboto assassins are the least likely to die, because the safety of the team is always in first place. Still, Aboto Seitei are usually highly effective at completing their tasks. They are the 'safest' sub-section.


The 'Kandaroseitei' [Undefeated Honor] : This sub-section focuses on an honorable victory and unchallenged succes. The Kandaroseitei are the assassins entrusted with the most important assassination tasks. A rule for the Kandaroseitei is that and Kandaro that lives is an undefeated Kandaro. If a Kandaroseitei fails a mission, he/she must offer up it's life honorably. The Kandaroseitei do have a moral code though.

They cannot murder children, the weak, the innocent, the poor, the sick or the elder. This is not per se because of that being the 'right thing to do'. It is more so that it would simply be a dishonarable use of the skills of a Kandaro. The point is, Kandaroseitei are the best of the best. They are therefore forbidden to be used agains 'lesser' targets. Their moral actually looks something like this: They can only murder the strong, the powerfull, the young, the politically significant, etc.. [Basically, they can only murder those who are equal or stronger then them. This could be physical, mental, knowledgeable or political strength.]

To the Kandaroseitei failure is generally unacceptable. The Kandaro have two 'levels'. In the lower level failure is not punished with death, but with something non-lethal.
After reaching certain quota an assassin will be promoted to the upper level. Here there are no exceptions. Failure is now rewarded with death, always. Kandaroseitei can be seen working together, if this is needed for succes. They are the most 'entrusted' sub-section.


I think any race with any class can be a part of whichever sub-section they want. As long as they're good at their job, succeed and obey, the leaders won't have a problem. People are not limited to stay in one sub-section, they can switch around if they want. Except for the Kandaroseitei. They are the most esteemed so most people wouldn't want to quit. It is possible, but not practical. And just plain cowardly.

Any thoughts or comments?

[Gnomey]

I can fill in a bit more information about the Kogotong:

- The Kogotong should not be religious in the sence that assassinatians are done in service of Mephale/Sithis/Yoku God. I think it would be cool to have a non-religious assassin faction for a change.

The Kogotong serve Crown political leaders, notably the leader of Hegathe. I think that he takes the place of Mephala or another god in the hierarchy.

- I think it'd be interesting to have a female leader for the Kogotong [no religious role]. Just to show that the Kogotong is different from the MT and DB.

Sload already came up with the leader of the Kogotong. I think he was male. He works under the cover of being the (captain of the?) bodyguard of the leader of Hegathe.

They don't discriminate wether you're mage, combat or stealth.

I'm not sure what some of those subsections would say if an eastern mage tried to join their ranks. They might even ask for the opinion of the higher-ups first.

[immortal_pigs]

@ Gnomey:
I knew that the Kogotong was in service of the Crown, more specifically Hegathe. I just didn't know if it was already decided wether the Kogotong would retain the religion of the Morag Tong. Does this mean that the prince of Hegathe will have the highest spot in the Kogotong hierarchie?

I didn't know the leader had already been made up.

I meant more or less that it doesn't matter for the Kogotong what you happen to be specialised in. What matters is that you do your job well. If your only good at magic, then the assassination missions will simply be very difficult to succeed at. I was thinking that the nature of the missions would simply drive the player to act in a certain way, otherwise he might not be able to finish the task.

Then again, we could say that the Kogotong find Magic to be a dishonorable way of assassinating. But I don't know how the game would be able to check if you did or didn't use magic when performing an assassination.

Do you think that having 4 sub-sections in the Kogotong would be a bit too large-scale for the faction? I wasn't sure how the faction had already been envisioned. [If it would be small like the DB in Oblivion, or larger like the MT in Morrowind.]

[Jale]

Well flick back a few pages and you will see that they are a splinter group that actually worshiped Boethiah.

Though that is really old. Thing is, I don't think the Yoku gods are 'dishonourable' enough to make sense as patrons of assassins. Perhaps a sort of yoku-ed up daedra.

[Sload]

no gods

[Jale]

no gods

Whelp there you go then.

Atheist assassins ftw.

[Sload]

not atheist - but their assassinations should not have any religious significance because thats been beaten dead.

also eno mareth can be made a woman i'm cool with that. she needs a new name though.

[redsrock]

also eno mareth can be made a woman i'm cool with that. she needs a new name though.

Eno is a Dunmer name right? Does that mean you want the leader to be a Dark Elf? Or does it matter?

[immortal_pigs]

Eno is a Dunmer name right? Does that mean you want the leader to be a Dark Elf? Or does it matter?

The Morag Tong [an 'honorable' Dark Elf assassins faction] used to be widespread about Tamriel. They got a little crazy and were responsible for killing about 3 Emperors of the Imperials. That's why they got illegalised in all of Tamriel, save for Morrowind were they are still considered legal. The Dark Brotherhood is a faction that split from them for some reason that I still don't really know exactly. In any case they were both 'religious' in the sence that the MT kills for Mephala and the DB kills for Sithis or the Night Mother.

The Kogotong is different from these two. It is a made up faction to give Hammerfell a more distinct feel, I think. The [made up] lore is that they were part of the MT, but stayed in Hammerfell rather than go back to Morrowind after the MT was illegalised. They serve the Crown, notably Hegathe, for a reason that has not been made up yet. [?]

The leader would most likely be a Dark Elf because the Kogotong were part of the MT which was a mainly Dark Elf faction. But I don't know if it has been decided that the leader must be a Dunmer.
------------------------------------------------------------

Coincidentaly, Eno is also the first name of the Morag Tong leader in Morrowind. [Eno Hlaalu]

Here are some names for her:
Ieneva Fadali
Velave Reyas
Medilo Morvayn
Miaren Sarayn
Radane Seloth
Muldyne Samori

[All created using the name generator.]

[Sload]

The Kogotong had a good patron in the "Prince" of Hegathe, and instead of returning back to Morrowind, these no-longer-pious Morag Tong members stayed and serve him personally.

Eno is not a coincidence. A myth echo.

Eneva Mareth is a good name.

[Lady Nerevar]

lets not make her a chick, thats bound to bring up night mother and mephala and all that jazz. plus i like the connection with the MT chief, brings back fond memories...

[Sload]

No it doesn't.

[Jale]

Im with sload on this one:

Morrowind MT: Male Head/Female God
Oblivion DB: Female Head/Ambiguous but suggested Male God

There isn't really a pattern alongside 'no god' if we make it male or female. I think female is better really. Better yet we should make it clear there is a male heir, possibly by killing her off and having the male become the new head. Just remove the sex-linking undertone.

[Sload]

Its my understanding the "female head" doesn't even show up until the very end.

[Haplo]

Its my understanding the "female head" doesn't even show up until the very end.

He's right you know

[Jale]

Its my understanding the "female head" doesn't even show up until the very end.

Yes but we were aware of the Night Mother from the very start.

We could always make the person a eunuch.

[immortal_pigs]

It doesn't matter whether the leader is a man or woman. I think it should be a woman but only for the sake of variety. Also, there shouldn't be any links with the Night Mother and stuff like that because the Kogotong doesn't have a religious ideology. Furthermore, it is supposed to be distinct from the MT and DB. So if the link is still made, that just means the faction hasn't succeeded at being different.

After thinking it over, I guess splitting the Kogotong into sub-sections would not be feasible because of the Oblivion scale. So here's a second batch of ideas for the faction:

Kogotong Hierarchy
[From Top to Bottom.]

The Kogobetei [Unbreakable Leader]
The Ahdankutei [Masters of the Trade]
The Jhetan Seitei [Honorable Assassins]
The Jhetan Tarei [Veteran/Experienced Assassins]
The Jhetan Jabari [Competitive Assassins]
The Jhetan Havar [Lesser/Rookie Assassins]
The Jhetan Savari [Servant Assassins]

The Kogobetei is in this case Eneva Mareth who is also part of the bodyguard of Prince Hegathe. [I didn't make this up.]

The Ahdankutei consists of whatever amount of assassins is suitable at the time. When the Kogotbetei decides to retire or is killed, the Ahdankutei will choose a new leader. One needs at least the rank of Jhetan Seitei to be a viable option. The Ahdankutei are the assassins that form the council and leadership of the Kogotong. All Ahdankutei mostly have a protege amongst the Jhetan Seitei.

The Jhetan Seitei are the assassins performing the big tasks, like killing a general or a Duke. They're the staple force of the Kogotong for getting the important tasks done.

The Jhetan Tarei are the assassins killing the lesser nobility, say the son of a Duke or a Captain. You need to have reached certain quota to be promoted to a Jhetan Tarei. Next to killing, Tarei also have the responsibility to teach the lesser ranks.

The Jhetan Jabari are the more or less basic assassins. They don't get to do the really important missions, but they do most of the grunt assassination work.

The Jhetan Havar are the assassins in training. They usually have to complete around 1-3 missions before being advanced to Jabari level.

The Jhetan Savari aren't really assassins yet. They're responsible for doing the non-assassination work, like gathering supplies or delivering messages.
[Perhaps the Havar and Savari should be fused together?]

[Sload]

I think it should be a woman but only for the sake of variety.

Yes.

[Gnomey]

Kogotong Hierarchy
[From Top to Bottom.]

The Kogobetei [Unbreakable Leader]
The Ahdankutei [Masters of the Trade]
The Jhetan Seitei [Honorable Assassins]
The Jhetan Tarei [Veteran/Experienced Assassins]
The Jhetan Jabari [Competitive Assassins]
The Jhetan Havar [Lesser/Rookie Assassins]
The Jhetan Savari [Servant Assassins]

Hm... this actually already fills the necessary positions, IMO, but personally I'd like to see more ranks like the other factions. Should there actually be some spy-like people at courts, who keep an eye out for the enemies of Utei Yazwa, keep tabs on them and, when the times comes, help set the stage for the assassination? IMO they would be one of the higher ranks; just above or below the Jhetan Seitei.

As for the Masters of the Trade, I don't think that there should be a specific ammount of members. (It makes me think of the Black Hand, and it isn't very practical). I'm all for advancement rituals/assassinations that would ensure the same ammount of members*, but if there are circumstances that would make it favourable to increase or decrease their number I don't think that anything should stand in their way.

I'm sort of seeing them as making up the rest of the bodyguard, though that would probably be too obvious for any enemies they might have. Maybe they are just made up of other retainers in Yazwa's palace? As for their electing a new Kogobetei, I think that Utei Yazwa should have more of a say in it. Either he simply promotes one of the Ahdankutei or he simply has the final say in their votes. Either way, he should have an important role in choosing his next right-hand man.

*This is actually going into the realms of quest designing, but ah well. I was thinking that the Kogobetei would keep track of the Jhetan Seitei, and when one emerged that he thinks surpasses the talents of one of the Ahdankutei, he would arrange a meeting with the promising assassin and would mark the member of the Ahdankutei in question for assassination, to be carried out by the Kogobetei's protege. It would be even better if the Ahdankutei were told that the meeting was taking place, but not who was being marked. It would make it more interesting.

If the target is assassinated, the assassin is promoted. Unless he is stupid enough to get seen by someone outside of the Kogotong, in which case any link to that organization would quickly be eliminated and he would be thrown in jail and, probably, be executed. (Will we have executons in Hammerfell?) I don't think that the Ahdankutei should have their personal proteges. As for advancing to the Kogobetei, killing the former Kogobetei would be stupid. He would probably become an Ahdankutei to advise his replacement until his death.

[immortal_pigs]

I'd like to see more ranks like the other factions.

For the Kogotong I was thinking of having lesser factions but higher requirements to advance in rank. Say 5-6 completed quests vs. 2-3. Also, the Kogotong should only have more ranks if they are functional and really needed. [Like for the spies I guess.]

Should there actually be some spy-like people at courts, who keep an eye out for the enemies of Utei Yazwa, keep tabs on them and, when the times comes, help set the stage for the assassination? IMO they would be one of the higher ranks; just above or below the Jhetan Seitei.

Yes, I was thinking about how to add the information gathering factor to the Kogotong, but I didn't know how to implement it. So there should be spies at the courts and other places.

The Kogotong will have its own small system of informants and spies. One of the Ahdankutei will be the offical Spymaster, while Jhetan Tarei and Jabari will perform spying missions for the guild. The spymaster will also make info deals with outside sources should this be needed. Informants don't necessarily need to be part of the guild.
Do you think this makes sense as a system, or should it be different?

I don't think that there should be a specific ammount of members.

I agree, if only 3 are needed there will be 3 Ahdankutei. If more are needed there will be more. Perhaps there will be a minimum needed, for example one spymaster is always needed.

Maybe they [the Ahdankutei] are just made up of other retainers in Yazwa's palace?

Nah, they shouldn't all be centered around the Yazwa's palace. But they should be situated in and around Hegathe. Most of the Ahdankutei can be semi-active mebers of society, as long as they can keep up with their work. For example one of lesser nobility could be one of the Ahdankutei as long as the nobel isn't too well known and socialy active.

On a sidenote, I think pretty much everyone in the Kogotong can be part of society, say under an alias or just as themselves. As long as it is plausible. A small part of the Kogotong cannot have a role in society, if they have been exposed or something like that.

As for their electing a new Kogobetei, I think that Utei Yazwa should have more of a say in it.

The Utei Yazwa will be presented with an 'advised choice' by the Ahdankutei. If the Yazwa doesn't like the choice he'll choose someone else. He can but probably wouldn't choose anyone with a rank lower than Jhetan Seitei.

The Kogobetei would keep track of the Jhetan Seitei, and when one emerged that he thinks surpasses the talents of one of the Ahdankutei, he would arrange a meeting with the promising assassin and would mark the member of the Ahdankutei in question for assassination, to be carried out by the Kogobetei's protege. It would be even better if the Ahdankutei were told that the meeting was taking place, but not who was being marked. It would make it more interesting.

I don't know yet if the Kogotong should be killing off it's own Ahdankutei. Then again, I don't know of any other way to replace one, unless they'd willfully stand down. Perhaps there will only be conflict if the Ahdankutei refuses? But that would be kinda boring with the surprise element being taken away. I don't know yet.

Unless he is stupid enough to get seen by someone outside of the Kogotong, in which case any link to that organization would quickly be eliminated and he would be thrown in jail and, probably, be executed.

If any meber gets seen and caught, the link to the Kogotong will be severed [that's why members should have aliases and stuff] and the member will die in an unfortunate accident. If the member gets seen [but not caught] and is valuable, they will fake his death and keep him as a member that always needs to wear a mask or closed helmet and can't be part of society. If he isn't valuable they will make him 'dissappear'.

(Will we have executons in Hammerfell?)

If it was up to me, yes. Maybe some groups will stand against it and others will approve. Say in city 'x' its allowed and in city 'y' it isn't. Or were you asking about factional executions?

I don't think that the Ahdankutei should have their personal proteges. As for advancing to the Kogobetei, killing the former Kogobetei would be stupid. He would probably become an Ahdankutei to advise his replacement until his death.

Yes, the Kogobetei will retire if the Yazwan guy decides its necessary. If the former Kogobetei is still valuable she can become an Ahdankutei, otherwise something else.. Why no proteges?


Now as for something new, here are a few scenarios as to how the Kogotong could be financed.

Scenario 1: Fixed amount every month/season/year.
The Yazwan will make a deal with the Kogobetei and the Ahdankutei to decide what amount of resources the Kogotong will be recieving at the start of the m/s/y. In return for the resources [mostly gold] the Kogotong must be prepared to serve the Yazwan whenever he needs serving. If it's a busy m/s/y for the Kogotong they might run out of resources. If it's a calm m/s/y the Kogotong will have made a profit.

Scenario 2: Tit fot tat.
At the end of the m/s/y the Ahdankutei and Kogobetei will present the Yazwan with a scroll thingy showing how many assassinations they have performed for him. In return they will recieve 'x' in resources. All assassinations will be commisioned by a servant of the Yazwan specifically asigned to this task.

Scenario 3: Non profit.
The assassins do their stuff for fun and the greater good.

Scenario 4: The Kogotong has two sides.
One side serves the Yazwan in return for a fixed amount of gold every m/s/y. The other side caters to people all over Hammerfell. This side doesn't do the big stuff, only things like killing a rival or avenging someone. That way the Yazwan doesn't have to check if the other side is doing stuff he wouldn't approve.

Scenario 5: Two sides again, Crown only.
The Kogotong has two sides. The best of the best cater to the Yazwan, while members of the Crown clique/group can also use the services of the Kogotong for a price. The Ahdankutei will need to know part of the Yazwan's agenda to decide which Crown members can and cannot request assassinations. Catering to Sentinel or Forebear is pretty much out of the question.

[Gnomey]

Scenario 3: Non profit.
The assassins do their stuff for fun and the greater good.

I think that this is the closest to how they should function. They are just like Yazwa's palace guards: they are not a complete organization. They serve their lord, he gives them what they need. They are not mercenaries. However, they do accept requests from other people as long as Yazwa has no complaint about it.

Edit: In other words, they are financed by Yazwa. Other clients would give Yazwa expensive "presents", "to show their continued obeisance to the Na Totambu, or more specifically the Utei of Hegathe". Assassins are also given "presents", especially after rendering important "services" to Yazwa. The lower ranks probably wouldn't recieve a lot of rewards, though. Probably just a small trinket after a few assassinations. They have to prove their worth before they get the good stuff.[/edit]

The Kogotong will have its own small system of informants and spies. One of the Ahdankutei will be the offical Spymaster, while Jhetan Tarei and Jabari will perform spying missions for the guild. The spymaster will also make info deals with outside sources should this be needed. Informants don't necessarily need to be part of the guild.
Do you think this makes sense as a system, or should it be different?

I don't think that a single member of the Ahdankutei should be the spymaster. The Ahdankutei sound like councillers and that's how they should act. I think that the Ahdankutei as a whole should be in charge of the spies. I also think that, if we do have the information gathering side, they should be a seperate part of the faction; either a seperate ranks or a miniature side-faction.

The spies should, IMO, be the informants. They are not a secret service; they are simply the eyes and ears of the Kogotong and, by extension, Yazwa. They do not perform spying missions, but are simply implanted into courts to keep track of the nobles. If we do have them, they certainly should be members of the Kogotong.

Nah, they shouldn't all be centered around the Yazwa's palace. But they should be situated in and around Hegathe. Most of the Ahdankutei can be semi-active mebers of society, as long as they can keep up with their work. For example one of lesser nobility could be one of the Ahdankutei as long as the nobel isn't too well known and socialy active.

The problem with that is if someone finds out about the meetings it will look strange. If, for example, they were all members of the bodyguard, there would be nothing more natural than for them to get to gether every now and then. Of course, this also makes them easier to get at, seeing as most people already know who the boss of the Kogotong is. If they were all members of the court that would already be pushing it, but they could at least count on the privacy of the palace. Anything beyand that can be exposed too easily.

I don't know yet if the Kogotong should be killing off it's own Ahdankutei.

I'd say yes. In my mind the Kogobetei seems to be a master assassin. In old age and even in madness he will be useful to the organization. The Ahdankutei, however, are simply the pick of the bunch. They may have been better than the other assassins at the time of their advancement, but that doesn't stop stronger assassins from popping up. In dire times the Ahdankutei might be full of clumsy oafs. (Not that bad, true, but close enough). They would still be the top dogs, though, until someone who is more capable comes along, and when that happens do you really want to have those idiots hanging around?

If any meber gets seen and caught, the link to the Kogotong will be severed [that's why members should have aliases and stuff] and the member will die in an unfortunate accident. If the member gets seen [but not caught] and is valuable, they will fake his death and keep him as a member that always needs to wear a mask or closed helmet and can't be part of society. If he isn't valuable they will make him 'dissappear'.

I don't think that making them disappear is necessary. The Kogotong isn't like the Dura Ungai (or for that matter the Dark Brotherhood). As I have already said, they are just like the palace guards, except that they're more withdrawn so that they can do their work better and to keep Yazwa out of trouble.

If a guard does something illegal, even if his fellows are doing something illegal at the same time, I don't think that he would be killed off. He would be denounced, fired, and effectively exiled, but not killed. Unless the other guards are really corrupt, which, in the case of the Kogotong, they aren't. It is only necessary to discredit him so that anything he might reveal can be ridiculed.

Why no proteges?

Because I don't think that the Ahdankutei should stick around after they have served their purposes. As soon as someone promising comes along I think that the weakest of the Ahdankutei should no longer be viewed as useful. The promising member would then be told to kill the member, and having proteges would confuse it.

A member of the Ahdankutei might end up being killed by his protege because he is viewed as being weak and the protege as being strong. Proteges might also think that it is in their best interest to keep their master alive and they might confuse the assassination. They might even allow their master to "disappear", or help him fake his death, or something like that, which would eliminate the whole purpose of the assassination. Overall they aren't necessary and can only harm the Kokogotng.

[immortal_pigs]

In other words, they are financed by Yazwa. Other clients would give Yazwa expensive "presents", "to show their continued obeisance to the Na Totambu, or more specifically the Utei of Hegathe". Assassins are also given "presents", especially after rendering important "services" to Yazwa. The lower ranks probably wouldn't recieve a lot of rewards, though. Probably just a small trinket after a few assassinations. They have to prove their worth before they get the good stuff.

If by presents to the assassins you mean gold, I'd agree. if you mean enchanted thingy x, I dissagree. In the DB and MT you were rewarded with all sorts of enchanted weapons and stuff, but I think the Kogotong's Yazwa rewards should mainly consist of gold. It's not like the Yazwa has a warehouse full of enchanted trinkets to give to each assassin after they provide a 'service'. There can still be enchanted weapon rewards, but those should be given as a personal favor by fellow [higher ranking] assassins.

The problem I have with your financing system is that it seems a little too small in scale. Lower Ranking assassins are basically unneeded because the rich would not waste their 'expensive presents' on a lesser assassin. I think it should be so that the lower ranking assassins [up to 'Veteran' rank] should be commercialy available to the people, whilst the higher ranks can only be coerced by others through the method you proposed.

And by commercialy available I mean that middle-class people will be able to ask for an assassination via a proxy. They won't actually get to meet or see anyone of the Kogotong.

I don't think that a single member of the Ahdankutei should be the spymaster. The Ahdankutei sound like councillers and that's how they should act. I think that the Ahdankutei as a whole should be in charge of the spies. I also think that, if we do have the information gathering side, they should be a seperate part of the faction; either a seperate ranks or a miniature side-faction.

I still think that one of the Ahdankutei should be the spymaster, but that the others will still council together with the spymaster over spying stuff. Being spymaster is simply a title implying that that particular Ahdankutei is responsible for having a good overview of the spy-section of the Kogotong and that he/she provides the overall guidance to them. This way the other Ahdankutei won't have to focus too much on the spying part of the Kogotong. The minature spy-faction can look something like this:

The Ahdanshipei [Spymaster]
The Shipei Seitei [Honorable Spy]
The Tareishipei [Experienced Spy]
The Havarshipei [Lesser Spy]

The titles are pretty much meaningless. If you're stationed in the lower ranks of a guard, or a guild, or amongst civilians, you're a lesser spy. If you're stationed amongst the higher ranks you're a Tareishipei. And if you're stationed in a court or some other significant place, you're an Honorable Spy. The Ahdanshipei is simply the title that one of the Ahdankutei is given.

So, as you said, the spies don't really perform missions, they're simply implanted into society. Although secret spying missions would be cool, so those should be added.

The problem with that is if someone finds out about the meetings it will look strange. If, for example, they were all members of the bodyguard, there would be nothing more natural than for them to get to gether every now and then. Of course, this also makes them easier to get at, seeing as most people already know who the boss of the Kogotong is.

Like you say, having them all be members of the bodyguard would be too much of a risk. I don't know how large the bodyguard will be, but I think max. 5% of the guard could consist of assassins. And only the high ranking ones, but not the Ahdankutei.

It should look something like this: The enemies and allies of the Kogotong know that one of the Yazwan's bodyguards is the leader of the guild. She is, in a way, the 'public' face of the Kogotong. Of course the public doesn't know that, but most of the important people do. Other than that, they don't know anyone else in the guild. Only the Yazwan and those he deems worthy know who the Ahdankutei and the Jhetan Seitei are. Those of a lower rank aren't important enough to care about.

Perhaps around 50% of the Ahdankutei [which would be 3-4 people] could reside within the palace, depending on how large the place actually is. The other Ahdankutei will all be situated in and around Hegathe. I agree that they do need an excuse to come together, but it needs to be something completely unexpected to avoid the risk of being exposed. The Ahdankutei need to be completely unrelated to eachother but still have an excuse to come together every now and then.

Here's an idea: What if, inside the Yazwan's palace, there were to be a place open to the [high-class] public. It could be a place exposing art, a library, a museum, a gambling place or a restaurant like place. The out of the palace Ahdankutei could go there once every week/month and then sneak off to some hidden place with the other Ahdankutei to do counciling. Come to think of it, maybe it is a better idea to have all the Ahdankutei in the palace.

I'd say yes. In my mind the Kogobetei seems to be a master assassin. In old age and even in madness he will be useful to the organization. The Ahdankutei, however, are simply the pick of the bunch. They may have been better than the other assassins at the time of their advancement, but that doesn't stop stronger assassins from popping up. In dire times the Ahdankutei might be full of clumsy oafs. (Not that bad, true, but close enough). They would still be the top dogs, though, until someone who is more capable comes along, and when that happens do you really want to have those idiots hanging around?

I see what you mean, I think it should look like this [which is mostly the same as you said]:

The Kogobetei, like I said, represents the outside image of the Kogotong. The betei is the Yazwa's personal bodyguard and, when needed, personal assassin. She is also sort of the leader of the Kogotong, although the Kogobetei isn't always superior to the Ahdankutei.

The Ahdankutei can be either young and still powerfull assassins that have been recently promoted, or they can be old people that have lost most of their skill, but excel at councilling. Both of these groups should be present in the current Ahdankutei council. In any case the Ahdankutei will need to be 'masters of the trade' otherwise they will be replaced by someone more able.

I don't think that making them disappear is necessary. As I have already said, they are just like the palace guards, except that they're more withdrawn so that they can do their work better and to keep Yazwa out of trouble.

I don't understand, if a member is caught and poses a threat to the Kogotong, he should be killed. That makes sense for an Assassins faction, I think. What I was trying to say was that, if a high ranking member were to be caught, and were to also be part of society, the member would either be killed or pretend killed, depending on his worth. But nevermind that.

The Kogotong should just follow the rule that the safety of the Kogotong comes first. If the safety is endangered, the Kogotong should do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety. It really depends on the situation.

Because I don't think that the Ahdankutei should stick around after they have served their purposes. As soon as someone promising comes along I think that the weakest of the Ahdankutei should no longer be viewed as useful. The promising member would then be told to kill the member, and having proteges would confuse it.

Okay, no proteges for the Ahdankutei. In theory [Since there isn't a fixed amount of members], the PC wouldn't necessarily have to kill one of the Ahdankutei if all the Ahdankutei we're doing their job well and the if the PC were to also be of a high level and competence. The PC would just join the ranks and not kill anyone. However it would be more fun to have to kill one of the Ahdankutei. Perhaps it could be that the PC can choose for him/herself which one he/she wants to kill. All the Ahdankutei would need to have certain disadvantages to justify doing that, though.


Now as for something new: The Scale of the Kogotong.

I think the Kogotong should be larger in scale then the DB, but definetely smaller than the MT.

Scale 1, Large: 5-7 Ahdankutei, 6-8 assassins in every one of the lower ranks. Total: ~36~

Scale 2, Medium: 5 Ahdankutei, 5-7 assassins in every one of the lower ranks. Total: ~30~

Scale 3, Small: 4-5 Ahdankutei, 4-6 assassins in every one of the lower ranks. Total: ~26~
============================================================

And these are the advancement quota:
To become a Jhetan Havar you must be initiated into the guild after doing something very unique and special.

To become a Jhetan Jabari you must have succesfully proven your worth after performing 4-5 assassinations.

To become a Jhetan Tarei you must have performed at least 10-12 succesfull assassinations. Plus you must be better than the others. It could be so that once every month the Jabari get a chance to be promoted to Tarei [after reaching the minimum quota]. Only one of the Jabari will be promoted and you must succeed at some competitive quest, like being the first to locate and kill someone.

To become a Jhetan Seitei you must have succeeded at at least 3 very difficult and important assassinations.

To become an Ahdankutei you must have the superior skill and intelect to kill one of the [unneeded] Ahdankutei.

To become the Kogobetei, you need but only the approval of the Yazwan.

The advancement quota aren't really that special, so maybe there needs to be a ritual of sorts added? The assination quests themselves do need to be fun and challenging, obviously.
============================================================

Lastly, here are a few character ideas for the current Ahdankutei members. [Most names, especially the Redguard ones, are bad.]

Eno Selethi, the oldest Ahdankutei. He was once the Kogobetei, but stood down to the former Betei before Eneva. He mainly serves the Kogotong as the most experienced of all assasins, knowing many tricks and skills and advising the current Kogobetei. In the palace, his alias is being the caretaker to something.

Jhakun Something-something, a male Redguard in his late 30's. He's very eccentric like the Hlaalu guy in Morrowind. He's also a highly talented actor and escape-artist. As a Jhetan Seitei he would dress up in all sorts of costumes and act himself near to his high-ranking target. When the chance presented itself he'd quickly stab or poison his target and dissapear without a trace. He didn't have to kill anyone to get into the Ahdankutei. He is also the spymaster for the Kogotong. His alias could be pretty much anything.

Medilo Sarayn, a youngish female Dunmer quite alike the current Kogobetei. She is one of the Ahdankutei most likely to take Eneva's place. One of her traits is that she can be exceedingly aggressive; she's the kind of assassin that would try to storm into a palace, kill anyone that gets into the way, reach her target and swiftly finish him, then escape in a overly violent way, leaving a trail of dead people that got in her way. She's is also a master of arms being able to use nearly everything as a weapon, including her fists. Her alias could be as a combatant in the Arena, or as some other violent thing. I don't see her being part of the palace staff. [She could be a male if needed, say Neloth Sarayn.]

Elna, an elderly female nord. Elna is one of the few assassins employing magic, either secretly if not approved by the Kogotong, or openly, if approved. She is highly skilled at making her targets 'dissapear'. She mainly employs destruction, illusion and poisons to kill her targets. Then she will feed the body to the wolves, or bury it in a remote cave. In any case, she makes her targets dissapear. Her alias is being one of the palace cooks. [She could be a male, she could also be young, it doesn't really matter.]

Hakun Something Something, a Redguard Male. Hakun is the type of assassin that plans his hits excessively, keeping all possible problems in mind. As a Jhetan Seitei he always killed his targets through 'accidents'. He would always study his target for weeks, possibly longer, to discover their weaknesses and such. Then he'd have them eat something bad, fall from someplace high, drown accidentally, etc.. Hakun'd always make sure the accidents seemed very very real and hardly suspicious. As an Ahdankutei he is one of the main strategists for the guild, helping plan out the real big assassinations against Nobles and such. His alias is something really unexpected and great. [Change the name, the race, the sex, it doesn't really matter.]

Andilo Madryon/Cyrios Something Something, a Dunmer or Redguard Noble. This guy will be the main 'rival' to Medilo Sarayn. He is a master at using blades, especially enchanted ones. [And he uses only blades.] This guy will be a more or less 'honorable' assassin, adhering to his one moral code. Next to being a blademaster, he is also very effective at disarming and dodgind opponents. He's the kind of assassin that would try to storm into a palace, disarm or dodge the guards, reach his target and challenge him to an honorable duel to the death [or just give him a quick, clean death], win, then agilely flee the place, disarming and dodging anyone that gets in his way. His alias is being a lesser Noble living in the high-class Hegathe District.

These are just six possible Ahdankutei's. For most of them the race and sex doesn't matter. They aren't all necessary. But it's a start.

[Lady Nerevar]

i'd like to split this topic into subtopics for each faction and keep this one as an overarching info thread. ill do that tomorrow unless someone (sload) has objections. its nice to see some discussion going on

[Gnomey]

Go ahead; I agree that this is getting somewhat off-topic.

I still think that one of the Ahdankutei should be the spymaster, but that the others will still council together with the spymaster over spying stuff. Being spymaster is simply a title implying that that particular Ahdankutei is responsible for having a good overview of the spy-section of the Kogotong and that he/she provides the overall guidance to them. This way the other Ahdankutei won't have to focus too much on the spying part of the Kogotong.

I see what you're getting at, but in that case I'd suggest that the Ahdanshipei is seperate from the council altogether. As I said, I don't think that a member of a council should have a special office. Either the subjects of discussion are worthy of the attention of the whole council or another person can deal with them until something comes up that is important.

It should look something like this: The enemies and allies of the Kogotong know that one of the Yazwan's bodyguards is the leader of the guild. She is, in a way, the 'public' face of the Kogotong. Of course the public doesn't know that, but most of the important people do.

Actually, pretty much everyone knows it. Pretty much everyone is sure of it. The only problem is proving it. That's how I understood it, at least. That's why I don't like the disappearances. The organisation is always half exposed: everyone knows its there, knows who the leader is and knows what it does.

If, every time some former member decides to reveal the names of the important members of the Kogotong, or does something like that, or is simply known to have worked for the Kogotong before, he disappears mysteriously, who wouldn't guess that the Kogotong did it? And the killing is obviously illegal, so if the Kogotong messes up once and it's proven, the Kogotong will be discredited and Yazwa will probably end up in a lot of trouble. It's better to discredit old members and let the public silence them instead.

...although the Kogobetei isn't always superior to the Ahdankutei.

I think that the Kogobetei should always have the final say, except for Yazwa, except that just like Yazwa keeps out of most of the affairs of the Kogotong the Kogobetei usually doesn't pay much attention to what the Ahdankutei are doing.

In theory [Since there isn't a fixed amount of members], the PC wouldn't necessarily have to kill one of the Ahdankutei if all the Ahdankutei we're doing their job well and the if the PC were to also be of a high level and competence. The PC would just join the ranks and not kill anyone.

To come to think of it, the exact opposite of that situation would make for a fun quest: a few of the Ahdankutei are causing problems for the Kogotong and the Kogobetei wants you to kill all of them/pick which one the player wants to kill. From your list, these might be: Medilo Sarayn - rivalry with Andilo Madryon; too public in her assassination style. Andilo Madryon - rivalry with Medilo Sarayn, also too public in regards to assassinations. Jhakun - he can be tactless at times and has been known to insult Yazwa and other important people. (The fun part here would be tracking down the master of disguise).

Now as for something new: The Scale of the Kogotong.

I'd say the six Ahdankutei members you listed, though perhaps five is better and Jhakun can be made the Ahdanshipei (if the rank is made seperate from the Ahdankutei).

As for the other ranks, the Jhetan Seitei might have two or three assassins; they're the cream of the crop and are close to challenging the Ahdankutei (but just not close enough). The Jhetan Tarei might have four members. The Jhetan Jabari might have six members; they're more or less the staple of the Kogotong. The lower ranks would only have a small amount of assassins; I don't see the Kogotong as reeling in large crowds of hopefuls. I'd say two or three for both. Assassins generally get promoted to Jhetan Jabari pretty quickly.

As for your members, Redguards generally only have the first name so you can forget the "Something-something".

Eno Selethi, the oldest Ahdankutei. ... In the palace, his alias is being the caretaker to something.

He should be a sort of "maid" or rather janitor who keeps the castle clean. That would be fun. Or, assuming that all Kogobetei have the cover of bodyguards, he would be a retired bodyguard-turned-resident. Not as interesting, but it would make more sense.

Jhakun

Some sort of religious figure residing in the palace. A very stern and serious priest; easily offended.

Medilo Sarayn

She could be a member of the guard, possibly the bodyguard. Either that or something completely unlike her, like a gardener.

Hakun ... His alias is something really unexpected and great.

Flambouyant, absent-minded noble, a man-about-palace. If Yazwa doesn't have any son or daughter, he could be styled as the heir apparent of Hegathe, which of course he isn't.

Andilo Madryon...'s the kind of assassin that would try to storm into a palace, disarm or dodge the guards, reach his target and challenge him to an honorable duel to the death [or just give him a quick, clean death], win, then agilely flee the place, disarming and dodging anyone that gets in his way.

He should wear a mask of some sort.

All in all I like them, and at least for now they'll do just fine. Of course, the fun part of this discussion is that there's a large chance that none of it will be used.

[hotclubfreak]

maybe we can make a sea guild?
More sea creatures, monsters (lochness)
and a guild (under water)
You can life with the animals under water.
Or you can tem it

Its a idea....

[Lady Nerevar]

that aint lore friendly :/ any guilds that we make have to be either mentioned in lore or make sense in the context of lore.

[jonarus_drakus]

I know this thread has been quite for a while, but the factions are a very important factor, and having some (if only vague) idea about the nature and locations of each is (in my opinion) criticle to making the creation process run smoothly.

I like where the Kogo Tong is heading, but i agree it has reached the stage where it should be separated into a separate thread to be 'finalised'.


I have a few ideas in reference to the Hammerfell branch of the Imperial Legions. Overall i think they can be though of as a cross between the Morrowind and Cyrodill styles with regional politics determining exactly what form they take in that area:

CROWN: Since the crown populace are the most hostile to Imperial influence, you would not find Imperial Legion outfits inside crown cities. In these cases the Morrowind format of 'Fort somethin-moth' a short distance from (but obviously seperate to) Major Crown Towns.

FOREBEARER: This is a little harder, because while the Legion are welcomed as the representatives of an Ally, they are still outsiders (of a sort). A seperate 'fort-district' built on the edge of the large city (as a sub-keep on the outer wall) would work best in my opinion, showing that they are welcomed, but not quite native.

SENTINEL/LUHTONIC:


There is also the matter of hoe 'political' the legion itself would be? Are they just a 'standing army' or are they trying to leverage thier miltary strength to exert an 'Imperialising' influence? This is very important as it would have a direct effect on what sort of the quests the player would be required to undertake if he/she opted to join the Legion (assuming of course that the Legion 'makes it' as a playable faction at all). Obviously, the Legion facilities will also be home to chapels dedicated to the Nine, and the church itself would have its own objectives, but thats a seperate matter.

The only other major 'blanket' theme factor would be the archetectural style of Legion facilities. Personaly I feel that maintain a visual style closer to Cyrodilic standards would help Legion Forts stand out (though the simple nature of building materials would mean that the forts would have yellow/gray walls instead of the cyrodilic deep grey), though that just personal opinion.


The only factor left to discuss would be 'unit' level organisation, but i think its safe to leave that untill the over-riding details are more or less sorted (dont let that stop people from theorising tho )

...and... ... ... DISCUSS!

[Gnomey]

Well, really this is necromancy, but then again I'm replying to a post and it's on topic, so why not?

Overall i think they can be though of as a cross between the Morrowind and Cyrodill styles with regional politics determining exactly what form they take in that area:

...

There is also the matter of hoe 'political' the legion itself would be? Are they just a 'standing army' or are they trying to leverage thier miltary strength to exert an 'Imperialising' influence?

Neither. Neither Morrowind nor Cyrodiil should be used as inspiration here to any great extent. The situations are completely different. Originally, Hammerfell was captured by the Imperials and was subjugated. However, there was a rebellion and the Redguards were able to make a more advantageous agreement. The result is that the Redguards got to keep their own turf for the most part, with Imperials maintaining a minimal presence.

Taneth is an exception. It was built up with Imperial money, so Imperials have a stronger presence there. Then there's Rihad, which might be a (though probably not the) base of the Imperial Navy and is certainly right beside the border fort. You'd probably also expect an Imperial presence in Sentinel, as it's recognized as the province's capital and would likely be crawling with Imperial and Redguard administrators, ambassadors, etc. Other than that, from what I understand, there will only be some presence in certain ports via the Imperial Navy, which is more widespread than the legion in Hammerfell.

Imperial presence would primarily be passive. An image of bored Imperials sweating in the heat and lounging around their barracks without anything to do comes to mind. They're just there to make sure that everything is running smoothly and as representatives of Cyrodiil and the Empire. The Imperial Navy, however, would be engaged in hunting down pirates and helping out ships in trouble, etc.

Obviously, the Legion facilities will also be home to chapels dedicated to the Nine, and the church itself would have its own objectives, but thats a seperate matter.

Obviously? Even if the legion did have facilities, (as they well might, or at least the Navy would probably have some buildings in some of the docks), the chapels don't need to be there. It would depend on what region you're talking about. In the case of Taneth, iirc, the Yoku temple was re-styled as a Temple of the Nine. For the other cities, the fact that there was a temple of Arkay in Stros M'Kai, a Crown city, would suggest that there would be similar temples in the other cities with no connection to the Legion. But it depends on what god you're talking about; Arkay is fairly popular while, for example, Talos is probably not so popular.

The only other major 'blanket' theme factor would be the archetectural style of Legion facilities. Personaly I feel that maintain a visual style closer to Cyrodilic standards would help Legion Forts stand out (though the simple nature of building materials would mean that the forts would have yellow/gray walls instead of the cyrodilic deep grey), though that just personal opinion.

Again, I don't really think they warrant their own architectural style. They're not powerful enough in Hammerfell. They've probably been given permission to use whatever buildings/rooms they have by the city. They might even share the rooms with Redguard guards/warriors/knights.