Munty's showcase

[Munty]

Hi all, I'm totally new here and new to modding too so I've been spooking these forums and related sites for the last few days trying to gauge things. I've spent a little while getting to grips with the construction set and have made a small island to the northwest of Solstheim, about 4 cells. I've also done a little interior but only a personally inclined shack on my island so far. I made myself a personal stash a while ago with some spooky magical trapdoors so that I could basically go from anywhere in the world to drop off my loot then use one of a host of doors to get back to various parts of Vvardenfell. It saves time and Silt Strider fares! Not to mention the back... Now I just leave all my excess loot in my stash! There's a trapdoor in my shack that leads to the stash but they're different ESPs. Anyway like I said, I'm only just starting out but I think I'm geting the hang of it ok, not too sure what to do now though. I'd also like to try out some lore, write some books what have you but I need to visit the old imperial library first I think! Get my facts in order before I start misinforming Morrowind at large... I've done a fair bit of creative writing and fiction so I think I could do ok at it if I put my mind to it. So anyway, I love the idea of Morrowind together again, I was always thinking it would be a good idea without ever realising it was already happening! Now I know, I'd love to help. Any way I can. If someone can point me in the right direction then I'd appreciate it!
Cheers, Tim

[Ronain Arthyn]

Welcome to the forums! Looking forward to seeing what you write. If you get stuck on something, don't be afraid to ask, almost everyone is willing to help.

[Munty]

Wow, 27 months later and here I am having done absolutely nothing (except served with the military, run my own business, get engaged and have a baby ) But as far as TR goes I guess I just kind of slipped of the radar! I'm back now though and the progress that's been made so far is just amazing so once again I want to know if I can help.

Attatched to this post is a compressed folder containing 21 JPEG screenshots of my only 2 ESPs to date. I did them years ago as you can tell from the fact they're mentioned in my last post and haven't touched them since. I had a play with the files today (in-game) to remind me of what was hot and what was not so here's a list of problems I had last time I modelled. If the community can help me fix these problems then I'll be one step closer to modding I figure!

First problem isn't in a picture but it happens on my island add-on. Each house has a door with a level 100 lock on it as they don't have interiors but in the game itself there seem to be 2 doors per hut, one is correct and just the way it should be according to the ESCS but there's another door in exactly the same place on every hut that has no link to any interiors, no lock and when selected pivots 90 degrees on it's Y axis. There are no such doors in the editor so I don't understand where they have come from.

Problem no.2 is another door one and is pictured but I haven't looked into it so it may be just a duplicate item (certainly looks like it in-game) The image 'Munty's Stash (7)' shows one of the exit trapdoors in the hub room of my stash ESP but it's shown in duplicate. I don't think either of them were linked to any other locations but as I said, I haven't looked so I can't really be advised on that just now!

The third and biggest (most annoying) problem is shown in a few pictures. 'Munty's Stash (1)' shows a missing section of wall/floor and a missing shelving unit. 'Munty's Stash (2)' shows a missing bed and the section of floor I was stood on at the time of taking this picture is also missing (I was on the rug! The only thought I have is that there are just so many items in the room it's no longer possible to display them all as all missing items are in place in the editor and when I first created the ESP the it was flawless.

Anyway that's what I've done in the past and the problems I have with them now but I'd really like to contribute something to this project and could give quite a lot of time to it within reason so I would a be pretty active member. I just need to know what to do next!

One final query to anyone who reads this and knows. The composite maps (like local in-game maps but of entire map sections) on the site here are all complete with roads, flora, fauna, land, rock formations etc. Even some buildings and towns. So what's the score on actual progress? I don't understand how it can look so complete but still be so far from completion (beta anyway)

[Nanu]

As to why our maps look so complete, that's because we have actually done most of the exteriors of the maps. However, that was done a long time ago and now we're going back over it and making it look as good as it can.

As to what we need from you, that'd be the actual *.esp files to be finished and detailed for a Showcase review. What gets reviewed depends on what you want to do on the project. If you want to do exteriors and interiors, both will be reviewed to the same standard of quality that we hold ourselves to.

If you wanted to model, texture, voice act, write, compose, or script, you'd need to do something in those fields.

Congrats on life, and welcome back to TR!

[Munty]

Well it looks really good, all the exteriors. There are clearly a few claims that have had a little less attention than others but on the whole it already looks pretty playable.

I could put together an interior or exterior I reckon but I'd probably start from scratch so I can avoid the likes of the errors I'm coming across in my old ones. What sort of piece makes a good showcase?

[Lady Nerevar]

something small. for interiors i would do a house (make sure it uses gridsnap). for exteriors a small island (1-2) cells is perfect.

welcome back

[Munty]

Despite what I just said, I went back to my old Stash ESP to try and tidy it up a bit and made a rather odd discovery. Turns out that using gridsnap places the majority of my furniture halfway through the floor/wall etc. Works fine for the actual body of the interior (floor and wall sections and the like) but is it just me or is it totally hopeless when it comes to furniture and item placement?

Still having duplicate door problems with my island huts and it definitely isn't a problem with the plugin in the editor... The doors that don't spin on their axis say they're locked too and they most certainly shouldn't be! Any ideas would be v.helpful.

[Aeven]

Using gridsnap with furniture is indeed useless. It may destroy your furnishing layout, and no Ctrl+Z will fix it exactly.

[PCgamerdude]

i'm not a reviewer but to effectively grid snap furniture you have to move the room piece on the z axis first

[Faalen]

Actually, gridsnapping furniture at all is a very bad idea. Even if you get it to line up, it will look unnaturally neat and tidy. Even in a neat freak's house, things are going to be half a degree or half an inch out of line. It's the small discrepancies that make the difference between a "modded" interior and a good interior, and it's a difference you'll notice the instant you set foot in there in-game.

There is, however, a way to make gridsnap more manageable. The grid to which pieces snap can be adjusted in size for more precise movement of architecture pieces (there are at least a few vanilla staircases that can't be aligned on the default grid). Go under File->Preferences and set the grid value to a lower number. Just make sure you keep it in powers of 2 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc.) otherwise tremendous weirdness may ensue. Like I said above, though, leaving furniture and items on a precise grid looks very unnatural, so be wary of overusing it.

[PCgamerdude]

sorry I meant use grid snap to prevent the bleeding you were talking about before

[Munty]

Hey thanks guys, that's some pretty good feedback. It's a very good point about furniture being overly perfect too, I may go and push over a bookcase or two!

So any ideas about my missing sections and furniture? I'm going to start up a new save file with the ESPs attached to see the rooms without items in them but if anyone's come across the problem before I'd like to hear about it. Is it likely to be caused by too many items in the room?

EDIT : Just reloaded a game from day 12 of my friends character and the plugin is fine so the game must have a limit to how many items can be displayed per cell and I'm clearly exceeding it! Not that I'm very suprised, I basically stole everything I liked the look of during the course of the game. I even have some exorcised skulls to add some character to the old gaff

[Faalen]

There isn't a limit to items displayed in an interior cell. All of Mournhold is an interior cell, and it's just fine. In my current quest claim, I'm working with a beautiful pocket realm (made by Hemitheon) that quite clearly demonstrates there is no such limit. When items in the editor do not appear in the game, it's usually due to conflicting plugins or a dirty save file.

[Zalzidrax]

Though with a facecount over 200,000 it might start running a bit slow on older machines. But there's no hard limit, just a balancing of size/detail v. playability.

[Munty]

Hmm, well like I said it works fine with an newer save file (post ESP integration) and there were still a few items already stored there so it had been used and visited before my test today.

The saves with the problems though are my save files and I've completed every main quest and every sub quest that I can (what's that Dwemer information thing all about???) so needless to say the place is absolutely chocka with loot and it wasn't made until after I'd played a good deal into the game. So save file corruption could have something to do with it... What's the cure to that though? Is there something I can do to fix it?

[Munty]

Ok so I've been working on my 2 ESPs (like I said I wouldn't) and have ironed out most of the kinks. In fact I had ironed out all of them but I wanted to go one step further and add dialogue and quests so now I'm stumped on what's next.

The 2 ESPs attached rely on each other so 1 will probably crash without the other (not tested it) One makes a new island to the NW of Solstheim with a dock, a handful of blank houses, a lumberjacks, a butchery and a gentleman's club (sorry guy's it's under development :p

The other is older and came before the island and is basically a dungeon (though its tower based) with access to 9 different locations throughout Morrowind and Solstheim.

Most recent edits include placing a master key to the 'Munty's Stash' location inside the dungeon/tower/whatever itself so that it can't be accessed until the player has ventured right out past Solstheim onto 'Munt Isle' where there is an unlocked entrance to the stash. The master key inside then unlocks all of the other entrances and exits for the stash file.

To add a little more depth to the whole scenario and the way the 2 ESPs work together I started work on a quest involving the lumberjack and butcher on Munt Isle and some intruding Horkers but I've only been able to get so far and now need some help with finishing them to where I want them (hence the premature upload)

The idea is Horkers in wood; lumberjack can't work; asks player to kill horkers; player does so; tells lumberjack; is rewarded with key to shack (contains unlocked entrance to stash and master key); is pointed in butcher's direction; butcher asks for 'meat' from horkers; player fetches it; gives to butcher; rewarded with steaks

And that's all I want to do. It all seems to have got rather complicated with a lot of dialogue and topics and questions etc but I think I've pretty much got it all down the way I want it. It's just a little overwhelming what with it being my first quest and dialogue edit and being ultimately 2 quests in one combining giving items, taking items, killing creatures, etc and so on.

Things that are wierd so far;
#The Horkers are on uneven ground and don't sit flat on playing
#The condition Horker dead =1 / 0 don't seem to work (kind of guesswork though tbh!)
#I have a duplicate butcher and lumberjack character in my game but think that's my save file
#I have one section of wall missing in my stash but again suspect save file
#Door to shack should be locked (hence key given for quest completion) but is unlocked. Again suspect save file.

The new topics are 'problems''horkers''butcher' and 'tusks'
The characters involved are 'munt isle butcher' and 'munt isle lumberjack'
The creatures are 'BMI horker'
The quest is 'Rotten Woods'

I want additional Journal entries to show when all horkers are killed (this didn't work but isn't set up) and when all the tusks are collected (ditto)

Anyone who can make sense of all this spiel and is willing to lend a hand would be most welcome! Please ask any questions you need to.

[Faalen]

I downloaded the large plugin per your request in the Lore and Quests forum, and it is quite dirty. There are 126 vanilla static objects saved to your plugin file, as well as 24 ingredients, numerous unneeded cells, four containers, two weapons, two creatures that should not be included, nine lights, eight doors, seven vanilla miscellaneous objects alongside the two you created (including a unique quest item), and two activators, both beds. From the looks of things, you pressed the "save" button in every window you opened in the CS. This is an extremely bad idea. The save button saves the actual item to your file, overwriting its original counterpart in the game along with any changes you may have made to it. The "save" button should never be clicked except on unique items you have created. When an item is placed in the world, it's there. It does not need to be saved separately before the overall file is saved. The same goes for linking doors, changing sizes, and adding ownership; they are all "remembered" automatically, so the "x" button should be clicked to close the window. A program like TESAME (available off the Utilities page here at TR) or Morrowind Enchanted Editor is what you need. Download one of those programs, open up your plugin, and delete anything and everything you did not create. It will help considerably with several of the problems you have described previously in this thread.

As far as the quest advancement issue you described in the other thread, I'll take a look and edit this post when I've figured something out.

EDIT: The problem you're having is that it is unreliable to check how many of something are dead with dialogue conditions. What you need is a GetDeadCount script that triggers a journal entry that says all the horkers are dead, and make the dialogue dependent on that journal entry. Scripting is not nearly as hard as you might think. What you should do is download Morrowind Scripting for Dummies and peruse it extensively. That's how I learned to script, and I'm not too shabby at it if I might say so myself. As far as this particular case goes, here's how I would do it:

Create a script (click the little pencil icon on the top of the CS window and click the "new" icon in the window that pops up) and type in the following

Code: Select all

Begin ScriptNameGoesHere

if ( GetDeadCount, HorkerIDGoesHere >= 5 )
     Journal "JournalNameHere" ## ; Journal index number
     StopScript ScriptNameGoesHere
endif

End

then click the "save" icon (yes, for scripts you need to use it).

Then, in the dialogue that starts the quest, put this in the results window (where you put the Journal command):

Code: Select all

StartScript ScriptNameGoesHere

Finally, in the dialogue where you answer whether you've finished the task or not, make the condition for the "yes" answer both Choice = 1 and Journal JournalNameHere = ## (whatever it was in the script). That should work like a charm, but it is one in the morning here, so any instructions I give in my tired state are also prone to making your computer explode.

But seriously, it would be a great idea to look into Morrowind Scripting for Dummies. If you've got just a little patience, you can learn to do neat things like have the horkers only appear during the quest, or anything else neat you can think of. It is definitely worth the time learning how to script. It will bring your modding to a whole new level, not to mention the fact that complex quests are virtually impossible without it.

[Munty]

Fantastic thanks a lot, I think I've pretty much cracked it now but I really need an outside play-tester (it's probably a 5 minute run through max) I've uploaded the final ESPs with this post and I just need someone other than myself to check all of the dialogue with the NPCs on the island and the quest.

Any takers???

EDIT: Also went through each ESP individually and they should stand alone now, the only overlap is a secret door from the stash file that leads to the island file but I think I can sort that with a little cunning, won't be in these files though.

FINAL EDIT! Both files updated and uploaded. Both ESPs are now clean, final and stand-alone but when used together there is still interaction between the two in the form of a trapdoor in the shack that leads to the stash. I managed to edit both ESPs in a way that the doors don't exist in either file when used alone, only when both are in play. The quest is now finished to the point I wanted and seems to be working fine including Journal entries.

Final problems encountered in my save game (may be dirty so need feedback)
# The texture tool doesn't seem to be working for me anymore so I've been unable to fix a missing patch of cobblestones on the island
# There should be an additional exit from the stash to Balmora but couldn't decide where to put it (still works as an entrance FROM Balmora)
# When speaking to the butcher 'tusks' should be recognised as a reference but doesn't seem to work until its second appearance in the dialogue
# There is a small trapdoor (not the one under the bed) in the shack which shouldn't be there when both files are used
# The butcher fails to use the correct greeting despite it being present in the dialogue editor

END NOTES
The only way to enter the stash in-game is through either a door in Fort Frostmoth (Imperial Shrine) or complete the quest on Munt Isle and use the trapdoor under the bed inside the shack there. These are the only 2 entrances that are unlocked until you get the master key from inside the stash (prevents access to basically all of Vvardenfell, Solstheim and Mournhold by using a door in Pelagiad) The reason there are two entrances is so the stash can be accessed if the Island ESP isn't in play.

[Munty]

Still waiting for a review, as by the looks of it are a few other people before me. Where is everyone?

[Lady Nerevar]

were all still here, just really busy. with map2 and stirk coming up, as well as school starting, were busier than usual. at least i know i am.

hopefully ill get to doing showcases today.

[Lady Nerevar]

aight, here are the reviews. first the Stash.

-considerable style and value mixing. since this is a fort it should all be imperial (com). you should also narrow down which value (poor, middle, and rich) you want to use.

i cant really say anything besides that, since there is no detail in this cell. i guess its suppose to be a player house, but we need to see detail to promote for interiors.

now for the exterior, which i have to say is a lot better than the norm
-the cell with the tower could use some more detail, but the other one is good.
-the poles of the docks dont touch the ground. you need to either raise the ground or stick some poles to the end of the other ones to cover up the floating.
-you should add vertex shading around the borders of textures and around large statics. this will make everything look better by simulating shadow.

your exterior is very close to promotion, but your interior(s) need more detail in addition to fixing the style mixing issue

[Munty]

Ooh feedback, thanks LadyN!

kk, well as far as the interior goes you're totally right, it's purpose is solely to be a player location so there is nothing particularly special there, just enough furniture to put my loot. There are two interiors on the island though, well three if you count my shack but that's the same as the stash really. The butcher and the lumberjack both have interiors though, the butcher is probably the only one worth looking at. Theres also a short tunnel that leads to an unfinished gentlemans club but that's all it is. Has a bit of special dialogue if you talk to a few people on the island though!

To be honest I didn't really notice that I was mixing furniture while I was putting this together. I've just reopened the ESP though and I see a lot of DE items, the colony hooks were the only ones I could find so they're ok I'm thinking? But I see where you're coming from and I may take a look see what COM furniture is available to replace the offending items!

I think I get where you're coming from with the value thing but I'm also guessing that once the style mixing is sorted out that should take care of value too as it will remove the tatty shelves and tables etc.

For the exterior then...
I don't really remember what the tower was for, it looks like I just wanted a tower so I stuck one in there without much thought. In hindsight it would probably be a better ESP without the tower altogether and with a few more shacks or something else a little more inkeeping with the rest of the community.
I didn't realise the poles weren't long enough, I seem to remember cheating when I made the docks and simply changing the land height to meet the poles. When I revisited the CS recently though I found some extensions, can't remember what they're called, that would fix the problem nicely.

And I know nothing about vertex shading I hear people talking about it but I could do with a tut. or FAQ or something if I'm going to start playing with that!

Thanks for the review anyway and if you see me on IRC maybe bug me there if you have nothing better to do! Otherwise I'll just keep checking here

[Lady Nerevar]

this tutorial covers it nicely: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=modding_data/tutorials&section=251365 . it also includes a lot of other stuff that you might find useful

[oldoldie]

Just use TESAME to clean your saved game.

You would have to keep the items you would like to keep minus the ones found in your plugin (if any), save your game far away from the changes affected by your plugin file.

Change your saved game from .ess into .esp, open it with tesame, and delete the cells your plugin affects, leaving all else intact, save it under a new name, change the new save to a .ess file, and reload the game, travel to your modded area.

This clears up the double doors, and any changes you made to your map/interior will stop conflicting with the originally loaded map/interior.

I clear out my savegames with TESAME once a year, to make sure any old plugin files not being used aren't sitting there in the save game. Also it shrinks the filesize of your save game not by much but smaller is better than larger.

[Munty]

Ok then here's what I've done today and the new files attached...

Interior;
Style mixing is now fixed, all items (except the hooks) are now same type - com. Everything is set along a fairly extravagant style too so we're presuming I'm fairly rich by the time I've got my hands on this magical stash which defies time and space. Probably have to be really lets be honest... I've taken what you said about detail in the stash and added some interesting little bits and pieces (oh yeah and a massive new room as I ran out of loot storage in my game :p) but its fairly localised just to give an idea of what I can do. If I was going to go further I would put some books and artifacts on various shelves, the table in the first room is where I keep all of my Dwemer books and artifacts so I may do that there. It's fairly obvious that it is what it is though I think, if you want me to turn it into (or just make) a civvy dwelling with a nice lot of detail just let me know.

Exterior;
You didn't really mention anything about the tower looking crappy, just said it could do with some more detail. Well I tore it down and stuck in a lighthouse instead, much happier with the way it makes the island look. Apart from that I was going to add a narrow path up to it from the village but my textures arent't working? (hence the gap outside the club) all the images just come up black and white... And I was going to carry on the forest up the slope too but obviously I haven't. If you visit the lumberjack in game he'll tell you that it's a new forest that he's growing anyway so it works well with the story even if it is a bit sparse :s Had a play with vertex shading, done around the buildings, around the road texture and shadows under the boats/docks but couldn't find a way to blend the snow texture into the seabed, just looked way too dark and most colours came out yellowy??

Anyways, that's what I've done today and the new files are attached here. Let me know what you think and what to do next

[Lady Nerevar]

sorry for the wait, here is my review. i decided to take a look at one of the interiors on the island instead, since its a better representation of an average interior.

Munt Isle, Butcher
-standard lighting, make it match
-eeew, corpus meat! not appropriate for a butchery
-several of the meats bleed through the plates.
-the items on the plate with the soap need to be rotated slightly so they dont float.
-i love what you did with the tables they need to be a little higher up though, since a person could not sit at them (no space for legs)
-bread bleeds together
-rugs float. you can resize them and rotate them to make it somewhat better, but its never going to completely go away. might want to consider removing them.

as for the isle itself:
- was saying that the cell with the tower/lighthouse needs detail, not the tower itself. it only has 47 references when it should have 100 or above.
-you could go darker with the vertex shading, especially around the buildings/docks.

anyways, just add a little detail to the southern cell of the exterior and youll be ready. fix the errors on the interior again, good modding!

[Munty]

Ta again Lady N. Cheeky checking an interior I wasn't expecting Haven't touched the butcher since I first made it!!! Will try and get it done over the next few days but as always you'll know when it is cause I'll styart bugging everyone again

[Munty]

Ok so the plan is that this is my last showcase post!

Went back into the butcher and tidied up everything that was higlighted. Wasn't sure what lighting I should be using on that interior but I figured I'd play it safe and just throw in a lantern like those I used externally. The corpus meat is gone (I think I just added everything that came from animals/corpses when I first made this interior) I reckon you should play through the quest with the lumberjack and butcher, then you probably wouldn't be all that suprised at finding corpusmeat amongst his wares!

Also in the butchery, the meats are no longer bleeding together or with the plates, angled some of the stranger shapes to make them sit right. Also rejigged the plate with the sload soap on, no gaps under the piles of 'stuff' although the soap itself still sits inside the piles. I figure that's fine based on what they are though...

Tables are higher and so are a couple of the chairs that were bleeding through the foor. Should be plenty of legroom now! Also sorted the bread so it doesn't bleed and also added to the variety a little by adding different sizes of loaf and bun. Sorted the rug by the door as best I can and removed the other which was imposible to fix.

Externally I've actually extended the whole island for about half a cell further to the south to allow the correct number of references without a cluttered end result. I've ended up with ref.counts of 300 and 174 so I think that should just about do it! (And personally I'm pretty happy with the way it's turned out!) Darkened the vertex shading slightly but don't want to overdo it so just point me in the right direction if it's not quite right, easy fix anyway.

So here are the files again, well one anyway, the stash is unchanged and not being referenced for the showcase atm anyway so just refer to the last posted download for that if necessary!

Final notes, Everything in the ESPs are final with the exception of the lumberjack interior. I have nothing else to add, remove or change. Also attached here is a new mesh 'De_Tavern_01' (I think) which is referenced by the island ESP. I have it loaded to this location >>> C:\Games\Morrowind\Data Files\Meshes so I advise anyone downloading this version of the ESP locates it in the same place to avoid any problems (From what I understand it should work fine so long as it's in the Meshes folder) Also note that the textures on this mesh are NOT the way I want them to be, I just wanted to create a tavern that fitted it's surrounding buildings. Someday I'll return to modelling and fix it!!!

Change of plan, uploaded all three necessary files in a winace archive as NIF files are not allowed (that seems stupid?) so all the files you'll need are right here!

[Lady Nerevar]

aight, took a look at this. the island is much better, the only thing you need to pay attention to is the angle of your rises. the island should go smoothly into the seafloor. anyways, Promoted for Exterior Modding. Also promoted for Interior Modding, since you fixed all the errors in the reviewed interior. a good showcase, the willingness to learn, and enthusiasm, exactly what i want to see

[Munty]

Yay! Thanks Lady N! I know the eastern side of the island is a little steep, I thought the other sides were about right though. The problem on the east coast was that Solstheim is there! Plus beacuse of where the dock is I had to make a bit of an unnatural lump so I figured it made sense to turn the whole eastern side into more of a cliff than a gentle slope. Still, that doen't matter now eh I'll go and check out the other foprums and see what's to-do!

[Aeven]

Congratulations!