Alik'r desert

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:58 pm

Alik'r Desert (name final)
Not much to discuss here, everyone knows that it's a big desert, filled with sand. There will be groves of trees along the coast and near the coastal towns, but for the most part will be devoid of most plants other than cactii.

This has been said about the alik'r desert somewhere in a thread discussing the regions of Hammerfell. He didn't even post a photo to indicate an atmosphere for the region like he did with other regions, as if a 'big desert, filled with sand' speaks for itself. Do you really picture the Alik'r desert as nothing but a big dune sea? If so, how can you make that region interesting?

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:20 pm

With sandstorms.

Simple exteriorizing is niiice

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:07 pm

[img]http://www.saharamet.com/desert/photos/Sahara01.jpg[/img]
[img]http://naturalpatriot.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sahara.jpg[/img]

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:58 pm

[img]http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-11/33907954.jpg[/img]

?????

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:01 pm

If it's up to sandstorms to make the desert interesting then I truly fear for the entire region.

I don't think 'simple exteriorizing' is nice at all. A vast region of relative emptiness will most probably be very boring unless it's somehow made strange or pretty. I think it's really necessary that people put some thought into this (which can never be too early if you ask me

)

So as a suggestion I will introduce you to the White Desert in Egypt. It's famous for the oddly shaped chalk rock formations; a result of sandstorms.

there are also a few nice desert photo's here: [url]http://www.free-photo-download.com/Namibia/namibia01.html[/url]

[img]http://www.isropa.nl/images/egypte-witte-woestijn.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.chelverton.com/assets/images/WhiteDesert.JPG[/img]
[img]http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6072405-md.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/Egypt/Farafra/WhiteDesert04.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/Egypt/Farafra/WhiteDesert07.jpg[/img]

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:53 pm

Yeah yeah yeah, at least acknowledge my eye for detail on my existing claims

...

I just think, and as proved by some of the pictures above, that empty and desolate sand dunes and flat streches of dry sand would look cool in some areas... Yes, it would be simpler than Goldmoor, but what we have today that we didn't have with Morrowind (except MGE) is distant land. Walking across sand dunes with just the occasional rock formation would actually look cool when you could spot a city in the distance, in between sand storms...

We don't need rocks everywhere anyway, and every single picture posted above has less statics than any given cell in 8-3

.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:10 pm

Nemon, you know you've been modding too long when you start counting statics in photographs.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:43 pm

we certainly need something besides dunes, because[url=http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=9947]dunes get boring quick[/url]. i really want to have a sense of epicness and wonder in the Alik'r.

as it nears the coast is becomes greener, grassier. as it nears the Dak Fron it becomes darker and stonier.

some reference images (1st is wiki, rest are from a desert ref pack i pulled online).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Sossusvlei_south_view.jpg

http://ladyn.tamriel-rebuilt.org/Alikr

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:06 pm

Yes, but ummm

the first picture proves my point; vast empty desolate areas!

And some areas could be like that, because the emptiness would kick ass! Remember we've got distant land now, think about seeing the mountain city in the distance (you know the redish one we've got a concept of...)! Awesomesoup with buttered crusts!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:35 pm

I like the thinking up of ideas to make it unique and interesting, that's definitely good. I just don't think the white sands look very good.

Also, the idea is really that the player doesn't even try to cross the Alik'r anyway because its vicious. Sun-damage possibly and baddies.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:31 am

i was talking more about the shrubbery between the dunes than the dunes themselves

that kind of layout (giant dune, lowland, giant dune) would also help us make the alik'r look a lot bigger than it really is.

totally sload. mirages would be cool and pretty simple to do (animated billboards that activate via script).

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:52 am

Nemon wrote:Yes, but ummm the first picture proves my point; vast empty desolate areas! And some areas could be like that, because the emptiness would kick ass! Remember we've got distant land now, think about seeing the mountain city in the distance (you know the redish one we've got a concept of...)! Awesomesoup with buttered crusts!

Actually, if anything I think we should severely restrict view distance in the Alik'r, lest the great desert of Hammerfell should look like a four year old's sandbox.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:25 am

I feel a sandstorm weather pattern coming on.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:25 am

I agree, a stretch of nothing but sand dunes would be awesome. It is that awesome effect that you get in any movie that involves someone lost in the desert, walking as far as they can see to the next biggest dune blocking their view, only to get over it and see more and more desert. But somewhere hidden in between a few dunes, you can have an oasis or some ancient ruins peaking out, that will be impossible to spot unless you step right on it. Knowing that there might be something is the intriguing part of it.

I agree with Sload as well that ideally, the player wont ever go into the desert unless they want to or they are headed for a very specific quest. NPCs in the cities should warn the player to stay out of the desert without a guide, that there is nothing but death to find there.

It would be cool also if you could have some sort of mirage effect, no idea how that would be accomplished tho.

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:02 am

Thoughts: As well as sun damage, how about fatigue damage as well? Also, a trade off for the Alik'r: At day, you have the sun beating down on you; At night, the sun's gone, but that's when the creatures come out to eat.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:14 pm

Nanu: there is already a fantastic sandstorm weather effect out there for us to use.

we need some kind of monsters all the time, otherwise sun damage is not that horrible an effect. what i would love to do is have the monsters burying underground and digging up when you approach. Guildwars did something like this with several of its critters, and it was a really cool effect.

im wondering if it would be possible to disable the worldmap while in the desert, to really make the player feel like he is lost?

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:33 pm

Sundamage sounds like a good idea, as long as it's weak, but Dunedweller clothing/armour should probably act as a protection against it. Mirages sound interesting, especially as a mirage or two could probably be quest related in some way. (A good way to incorporate visions of a Yoku god).

As to detailing the deserts, I prefer the idea of the largest part being relatively empty sand dunes. Hidden between the dunes, or in similar nooks and crannies, or scattered around the edge of the desert, there would probably be more fauna and flora, or Dunedwellers, or ruins and caves, but I think that, if the player goes on top of a dune and scans the horizon, the desert should look completely desolate. This will make the encounters mentioned above far more interesting, and will keep with the reputation of the Alik'r as being a harsh and unpopulated desert.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:52 pm

Guildwars did something like this with several of its critters, and it was a really cool effect.

It also got blithely annoying after the third time they hid five of them in the same place.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:59 pm

yea, knowing where they would pop up gets boring. making them random spawns should fix that problem to a degree.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:00 pm

I'd suggest sandstorms very often (like the ash storms of Morrowind) which decrease sight a lot.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:13 pm

I think nocturnal creatures would be great, but hopefully not a lot of them. I hated that about oblivion and many other games that you can't walk 15 feet without getting jumped or seeing another creature. The dangerous part shouldn't be the number of creatures, but that when finally encountered, they are toughies. The occasional skeletal remains of a large beast would be cool to see, Star Wars comes to mind for this.

This might be going more into a bolt-on survival mod, but it would be neat that if you were wearing special helmet with goggles you could see better in a sandstorm, at least somewhat better than without them. However, I know that even if TR doesn't include this, the survival modders are going to love Hammerfell for all kinds of reasons.

As far as mirages are concerned, the actual real world ones are cause by the same effect as when you think you see water on a road on really hot days. Of course you can also have hallucinations in the extreme heat, that make you see more complex visions. I also recall watching something about a special type of mirage that warps light so that the viewer can see objects that normally are far beyond the horizon, and makes them appear closer, so like a mountain or even city maybe.

kikai · Post by **kikai** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:52 am

my 2 cents: keep the sun damage, i've been in the desert and you get dizzy after 10 mins. is that possible in oblivion? like blurriness when you receive a certain amount of sun.
keep nocturnal monsters, about 100 per cell or more, toughies or depending on level. the distorting the map would be horrible, im sure there going to be more than one person that is going to wander in circles for 50 minutes and scream like a sissy.
you should also add a few oasis,or random merchants/shops.
Caves and events that happen at a certain time. let say at ten o clock in place X some random spirit (npc) starts singing in the night, she doesn't attack you or anything, could be part of a quest or lore. w/e somebody finish my work/post

Fugu23 · Post by **Fugu23** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:21 am

Instead of disabling the map completely, why not opt for disabling fast travel? That way, you get in, but it's hell trying to get out, without being damn near impossible.

As for mirage/blurriness, the Inebriation mod has a very good effect to that length. If it could be manipulated slightly it could be used for a mirage effect, and a really good one.

The key to this would be to not over-do it. Only a few options should be implemented, or some should be very watered, or, like kikai said, people are going to be whining to you about it. You have to at least give players a very stressed warning if you're going to max out all of the special desert environ effects to realistic level.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:26 pm

The problem with disabling maps and sun damage and what not, to me seems to be that it is not really something TR should concern itself with. It's gameplay changes, where as TR mostly focuses on making the world itself.

But those are rather small gameplay ideas. I suggest we try and come with some conceptual ideas for the design of the desert, such as thing that actually make it unique. Here's some random things that came to my mind. They're hardly useful and are only there so other might take some inspiration for it.

- moving/walking rocks: Don't know how or why they move. Just a very general idea.

- The Noonday Devil: Abstract idea taken from the writings of early Christian hermits in the Egyptian desert. In their experience, it is the personification of the kind of melancholy and doubt that can lead one to question his religious conviction. Traditionally, it strikes around noon, the hottest part of the day, when the temperature does not allow for much else than quiet meditation. Obviously, if this would at all be formed into a workable idea, the Devil would be slightly more tangible. Basically, I just kind of dig the name.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:05 pm

i do agree with you ada, but i dont think that making the region itself will be atmospheric enough to really say "alik'r". i guess taking away the map is too drastic, but i dont think a light sun damage effect (like the vamps have) is too much.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:20 am

Hi. Ive never really posted but this thread caught my eye. Personally, i think if could be posible to make the dunes shift shape every hopur or so would be interesting. That way the landscape always changes and one could then have different objects/landmarks/ruins shift in and out of "existence". it would also add a psycological effect of not being able to predictably navigate the desert every time you enter it.

Fugu23 · Post by **Fugu23** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:29 am

I wouldn't like to call impossible on that, but it would be very difficult to accomplish. That is if there actually is a way to do that...

My only guess would be to have it load four random/generic desert cells that match and have triggers set up so that it keeps doing this as you walk through the desert. Like I said, very difficult and nigh impossible. Not to mention that you'd proboably be walking forever if you did that because you'd always be in a desert cell that has a trigger in it for the next.

A nice idea nonetheless.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:46 am

Fugu23 wrote:I wouldn't like to call impossible on that, but it would be very difficult to accomplish. That is if there actually is a way to do that...

My only guess would be to have it load four random/generic desert cells that match and have triggers set up so that it keeps doing this as you walk through the desert. Like I said, very difficult and nigh impossible. Not to mention that you'd proboably be walking forever if you did that because you'd always be in a desert cell that has a trigger in it for the next.

A nice idea nonetheless.

Well, after that evidence, you could swing this idea if you only did this every time the player entered the desert only. that way all of this messyness can be avoided whist retaining the basic jist of psycological uncertainty.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:21 am

Well, it's not impossible to do in a game, but to do it in this game engine convincingly would take alot.

Dunes "shifting" could be done by having the dunes as statics, that are enabled and disabled at random via script. Maybe in the same vein as the gates to oblivion that semi-randomly appeared. They could easily hide structures. It could actually create quite the interesting effect for exploring. To be wandering around and discover a dungeon uncovered by the sands, to leave and it be gone afterwards, leaving no map marker or any trace.

But static dunes probably wouldn't look nearly as good as actual terrain. And if the player was in said dungeon and the script re-enabled the static covering it, then they get trapped under a static mesh which is clearly bad.

Having a worthy Alik'ir was my entire concern during the scale wars. Though playing through fallout shows it may be possible to have seperate worldspaces add together to make an area much larger than it would be on the plain map. The problem lies in open terrain and having no acceptable way to transition. Fallout did it well as a bombed out remnant of DC, plenty of nooks and crannies tunnels and passages to use to connect.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:11 am

Eraser wrote:Well, it's not impossible to do in a game, but to do it in this game engine convincingly would take alot.

Dunes "shifting" could be done by having the dunes as statics, that are enabled and disabled at random via script.

an interesting idea. in my opinion based on my experiences with modding map terrains, a more simpler method would be to create large swaths of static dunes that change as part of an animation sequence. that way the simplicity of a general map can be attained while still allowing for chaotic changes of dune variations. however, this might be a bit difficult to synchronize with the engine's LOD. im not really shure. ive only been using bethesda's construction set for a couple of months and havent quite found all of its secrets and loopholes.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:00 am

Another possibility is simply repeated dune patterns, that looks nearly identical to each other, and not just next to each other but also the same pattern in different places in the desert. It is hard to make something a landmark if you see it many times and in different places. Any statics that move or disappear would probably be best as small as possible and in between larger dunes. I like the idea also of some caves or dunes only appearing at night or during high noon. Perhaps we might even have something appearing at twilight hours that is related to Azura. Basically I think we should go for unpredictability, danger from death and getting lost, and also a bit of adventure at being able to discover something, intriguing enough that the player might be willing to risk all of the above to enter it.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:29 pm

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote: I like the idea also of some caves or dunes only appearing at night or during high noon. Perhaps we might even have something appearing at twilight hours that is related to Azura.

Speaking of things appearing and disappearing..... you might be able to have ruins or other ancient things only appear at certain times and then just fade away as quickly as thay appeared. one example of this could be an ancient palacial garden that appears at dawn and completely disappears at noon. if the player is unlucky enough to still be there by noon, that are given a curse similar to vampirism where that have to eat only the fruits of the garden to survive.
the player could also stumble upon different mirages and specters at certain times that try to entice him to remain with them forever (ex. a beautiful maiden who tries to capture the players heart and ultimately tries to kill him if he stays w/ her too long.)

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:30 pm

Hannibal, please resize your avatar to approx 1/4th of the present size 8)

hotclubfreak · Post by **hotclubfreak** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:29 am

maybe we can set mirages.(in dutch fata morgana)
example: you are walking in the desert and suddenly you see a imperial city tower or something else in the desert.
It disappears if you come further.
I hope nobody else has ever say this too in this thread.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:53 pm

mirages would be cool and pretty simple to do (animated billboards that activate via script).

lol

hotclubfreak · Post by **hotclubfreak** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:27 pm

oke

thats a sign it wil be good he?

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:41 pm

that sentence made no grammatical sense, and i really cant understand it, but i will attempt to answer none the less.

no, it does not mean that mirages will be included in the alikr. it means that several people like the idea, which means it is more likely to be included. nothing is certain though.

Fugu23 · Post by **Fugu23** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:02 am

Had a storm of ideas recently involving this desert. I'll try and organize my thoughts the best possible.

I was looking at the snowbanks and the way grains of sand on the road affected the way they looked, and figured that it would look amazing if there were formations worn into the desert that way. I'll draw a sketch later to show.

Anyways, that came with the idea of having alternating sections of rolling dunes/rocks twisting through the early sections of the desert (those near the periphery) and finally opening up to a giant dustbowl in the center, around the corner or over a hill, the dunes just stop. It would certainly have a striking appearance, I'm sure. Just something I thought of.

Another landscaping idea would be to have a trail of footprints leading through the winding dune and rock section but dissapearing once you come into the plains. This would give a general direction in which to head in and assures the player they won't get completely lost, while retaining the feeling of it being incredibly isolated.

Also, ruins etc. could be tucked in between the crevasses and caves.

Dustbowl texture should look a bit like [url=http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/adv_comp/dune-ripples.jpg]this[/url], or even completely flat if you like. Me personally, I think the ripples have a depth-enhancing effect when repeated as such.

There could be some 'random wanderers' programmed in along the trails and occasionally the dustbowls, which can give warnings or fight the player madly, whatever you guys can come up with, or perhaps even a quest.

Desert should take three whole days to cross when walking.

Can Oblivion use decimals on spells? How about .25pts sun damage every second? This would be applied in the centre dustbowl, or at least heightened.

Think that's it.

NexUmMonastica · Post by **NexUmMonastica** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:53 am

If you've ever walked through the southern wastes of tes2 you'll see nothing but sand and mean monsters. Its a horrifying and ruthless place. Cities are sparse and the citizens are cruel. Its not an area to waste aesthetics on: Its a desert like Arakis of "Dune". just big, empty, and deadly.

milne · Post by **milne** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:23 pm

has anyone seen the Planet Earth documentary on deserts?

because there are some great ideas that could be used in there, such as; animals and plants getting the little water they need from fog that blows in from the sea, giant pillars of rock standing in the middle of nowhere, giant sandstorms that come at you like a great big wall of dust...

there are a lot more things from the program, these are just a few of them