Dres Concept Art

[Adanorcil]

Combine this with my cross section in the post above?

[img]http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7114/drescy4.png[/img]

Sounds like a meme. :p

Rope bridges are a little overused, though.



Maybe we could just remove the top layer of buildings entirely and make the 'pyramid' open on top? The top blue tier would then be the manors of the high society.

[MMMowSkwoz]

So is this a hollow exterior piece or will the interior essentially just be a pyramid? Because the rain issue would be very obvious if it was a hollowed interior.

[Túrelio]

Combine this with my cross section in the post above?

[img]http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7114/drescy4.png[/img]

Sounds like a meme. :p

Rope bridges are a little overused, though.



Maybe we could just remove the top layer of buildings entirely and make the 'pyramid' open on top? The top blue tier would then be the manors of the high society.

That is kind of what I was thinking, except that maybe the upper class would be build on top of the upper most blue section. Yea I agree, lets not over use rope bridges, mostly the bridges will be those used by the middle to upper-class, and the poorer classes wont have much need as they will be on the bottom.

Another idea I was considering is having the entrance come out onto the middle-class, or merchant terrace, so that would likely be the entrance the player uses. So they can look down into the "pit" of the lowest class and slaves, while still be towered over by the upper-middle class and the upper class.

[Lady Nerevar]

great ideas all, that canton looks real sweet. only one concern at the moment, thats a whole lot of blank space on the outside. it might read as boring in game due to its size. what kind of texture are you thing of (perhaps alternate some stone pattern or paint colors to add some interest).

[Túrelio]

From the outside I would think there would be entrances, bridges and such, as well as watchtowers.

[Gez]

Rope bridges are a little overused, though.

Never!

Seriously, though, if we have a setup like this, I want to walk over the chasm below.

Maybe we could just remove the top layer of buildings entirely and make the 'pyramid' open on top?

No for technical reasons. Other than that boring rain issue that seems to annoy some people, having the "inside city" closed off completely makes it much easier on the FPS.

From the outside I would think there would be entrances, bridges and such, as well as watchtowers.

Watchtowers jutting from the sides of the canton's outer walls would be wicked; and again differentiate from the Velothi style efficiently.


Another type of unique Dres building that could go on a side or on the top of the pyramid would be the Hive for their Sky Renders (aka Paraptons, aka giant wasps).

[Thrignar Fraxix]

If there was a bridge over the lower class and slaves I believe it would be made out of something solid, not rope and what not.

[greendogo]

I like the variety in your concepts Turelio. If we were to cut down on ornamentation, though, I think there is a bit too much flair. I like it though, and I definitely think the Dres would have ornamentation on their structures whether or not they are trying to impress tourists or not. I think they would do it for themselves mostly, and keeping with the idea of creating an imposing aura, I think you've got the right idea with the corners, the doorways/windows and the general height. I think the buildings could be made slightly wider, but the way they are now allows them to be squashed up next to each other like apartment buildings in a bad neighborhood of NY.

Onto the cantons...
I'm glad you drew cantons. I thought the idea had been nixed but everybody seems to enjoy your interpretations, as they seem pretty plausible and enjoy many differences with the Vivec cantons. My favorite is the third one. Its entrance has potential to be more forbidding, however. I also think that the addition of modular buildings (such as your singular structures) in tight proximity could improve this feeling.

I'm interested to know if you guys think the canton idea is better than singular buildings. If so, why? I'm indifferent right now, because I can imagine a canton that's like a fortress city, looming over the countryside, and all that jazz. I just feel as though the Dres wouldn't use cantons for every single city. I think it lacks as much creative potential as the single buildings would have. I'd like the canton idea more if they were designed to implement modular dwellings and structures so at least we could make a city without having to make it based around a canton.

I like the towers. I would like to see more variety, though. I think the towers could also be made more threatening. I still say there should be at least two types of towers. One for offense and one for guarding slave pens. What do you guys think?

[Chin Music]

As far as the "cantons" go, it seems like there should just be one large, well-developed one, used as a single city. Most cities should just utilise standard planning.

I use the term cantons loosely as they seem to have evolved a bit beyond that and are now more like giant city-fortresses.

I like the overall design of the third canton with the higher class walls reaching all around, my only concern with them is the space used. A market district which would require the most amount of space has only a little tiny area while mansions and things which would require a smaller amount have the largest. I suppose that the "rest" of each district could be kept within the canton itself. It seems like it would be such a huge waste to build this thing way up high, for no other reason than being high. While the mansions and towers would all be outside, a portion of each of the lower districts would be within the canton itself.

The more recent stuff that has been suggested, it looks to me like it's basically canton 3 but with a huge roof placed over the top. And then maybe some buildings on top for some reason. I wish there were a better semblance of scale here, I'm finding it hard to tell how big anything is supposed to be exactly. I think it might be getting a tad ambitious here.

Edit: I wracked my brain thinking of how you could get something like this to work. While I don't endorse this, here is an approximate cross section of the monstrosity currently being described. And this is without a roof, buildings, bridges, ramps, whatever.

[url=http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3621/csnt5.png][img]http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3621/csnt5.th.png[/img][/url]

As for the actual designs of the buildings, I'm afraid there's not a great deal more I can contribute than what I've already suggested. My vision has already been translated into art pretty much perfectly.

[Gez]

I like the overall design of the third canton with the higher class walls reaching all around, my only concern with them is the space used. A market district which would require the most amount of space has only a little tiny area while mansions and things which would require a smaller amount have the largest. I suppose that the "rest" of each district could be kept within the canton itself.

Exactly. The "open" area in the middle is a plaza. Shops and warehouses are all around.

The more recent stuff that has been suggested, it looks to me like it's basically canton 3 but with a huge roof placed over the top. And then maybe some buildings on top for some reason.

The true elite is above the hive. Under the roof, you have middle class, lower class, slaves, and foreign visitors.

[greendogo]

I agree with you Chin, having buildings above buildings is kind of wonky. I think it would be more interesting and flexible (and probably easier for the modeler/s) to make a kind of city landscape above the lower cantons with modular bridges, platforms and structures. Basically break down the problem into smaller pieces and the modders creating whatever city the cantons would be used in can decide how the layout should be.

If I had the decency to draw it out how it looks in my head, it would be a mess, and that wouldn't be decent at all, now would it? However, I do like the idea of the lower classes and the slaves at market looking up and seeing a city in the sky that is beyond their reach (if that creates a picture in your head similar to the one in mine, I don't know).

I agree halfway with Adanorcil I suppose. I'd like the cantons to be open on top, but with a lattice of bridges and buildings. I don't think this idea is at all plausible though. It certainly doesn't fit in with the concept houses on page 4, unless somebody could make it look like it should fit. The fact that this would probably be a significant FPS hit is discouraging as well.

On to another topic:
I know that the majority of Dres land is plains and farmland, but does that mean it is devoid of surface geometry for the most part? (and by surface geometry, I mean more than just little hills). For the cities/settlements that would be designed without cantons, I think we should think about what kind of modular pieces we haven't really discussed (like bridges, platforms, walls, missile silos - whatever). If the areas that those cities/settlements would be have any surface geometry (like rocks, forests, cliffs, waterfalls or whatever) it would really help make those areas more interesting. I, however, doubt designing a happy go lucky Dres village around a waterfall, like Alt Bosara, is going to appeal to their oppressive sense of style.

I do have a complaint about the cantons/ziggurats idea. I, personally, think we could accomplish Dres architecture effectively without using them at all. They would be cool, yes, but effective only because they would reinforce the order of the Dres class hierarchy. On the plus side, they're supported by lore (once). Hmmmm ... that just seems like a list of positives now that I wrote it all out.

[Chin Music]

The biggest problem I see with having a huge enclosed interior like that is lighting. It seems like it would be very dark.

Honestly I just think there's probably a better way to go about having a canton-city than tiers within tiers within tiers. The idea has started to deviate somewhat and take on life of its own.

I also don't think the walls "leaning in" on each level is necessary either. Walls on their own, combined with the tall buildings all around would achieve the same effect, and you wouldn't be able to even see the buildings if the walls were leaning in.

If one of these cities was eventually somehow made, I think the original inverted canton idea, with the open air at the bottom and walls ascending all around, would present enough of a challenge, be big enough and look good enough instead of going totally overboard to no additional effect. My opinion that the way to go is take the canton 3 concept and elaborate on it without just piling on bigger and bigger stuff. Guard towers jutting out from the outer walls is a good idea.

Edit: @ greendogo: The cantons was just a word in a book that just seemed to interest people.

To tell the truth, Canton Concept 3 is the only one I am interested in because not only is it totally unlike anything else in the game, it also successfully gives off the feel we're looking for, with the lowest classes looking up at an oppressive, unreachable city, while the high classes look down from their high seats into the riff raff below.

However. That alone is just a city plan, which could be accomplished in any number of ways which don't involve giant monstrous cantons and large slabs of blank wall. I think it's a great idea which is worth pursuing, but I think it should only happen once and should remain as simple as possible to avoid infinite delays.

[greendogo]

Is the "tiers within tiers... etc" thing what was depicted in that picture four posts up?

Edit:
@Chin -

but I think it should only happen once

I agree with you. I would be able to believe the Dres would use cantons in a maximum of two cities, but really, one is all you need. It presents an interesting strategic dynamic. You're smart if you build a giant fortress city along the border of a place you kidnap and enslave people from.

Edit 2:
I think that most of our energy is now involved in discussing cantons. But aren't cantons something we should talk about after we're more solid on other aspects of their architecture?

[Chin Music]

Referring to the ones with the different colours and the rope bridge. I think it's got a poor sense of scale, and I don't think anyone's quite on the same page. It just seemed like a vaguely rushed attempt to stuff canton 3 inside canton 2 which then gained a bit of steam.

You have to think very practically when designing a city, especially with a new and unusual concept such as this. How big should each area be? How big should the city be overall? How are you going to ascend to higher tiers without it looking or feeling awkward? How high should the walls be? How much of the lower levels should be hollowed out for additional buildings? What environment is it going to be in? How hard is it going to be to actually build?

Cantons in the construction set aren't things that are built from the ground-up, they're unique, huge structures with a few bits and bobs added onto them. If the canton idea is one that we seriously want to see pursued, regardless of potential alternate plans or methods, then the design has to be completely down before it goes anywhere near modelling.

Edit: Well, the cantons are being discussed as a potential city while more concept art is going through the works. Once we have a definitive look that we're happy with, then we can discuss any additional pieces that we want because we want to create some bizarre city.

In a very general sense, we're pretty happy with the buildings so far so far and that's enough for city ideas to start forming.

[Gez]

The biggest problem I see with having a huge enclosed interior like that is lighting. It seems like it would be very dark.

They're dark elves, they like it when it's dark. How would it be any more dark than the waistworks and waterworks of Vivec? There is no shortage of eternal torches in Morrowind.

I also don't think the walls "leaning in" on each level is necessary either. Walls on their own, combined with the tall buildings all around would achieve the same effect, and you wouldn't be able to even see the buildings if the walls were leaning in.

Why should n'wahs and slaves be allowed to see their betters? They just need to know that their betters are above them, out of reach.

Further, slanted walls in the "funnel canton" would be an inefficient use of horizontal space, both above and below.

[img]http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5608/dresso4.png[/img]

As you can see on this tiny picture, a slanted canton loses horizontal room for the slope, compared to a flat surface. A leaning canton, on the other hand, gains that much more room instead of losing it.

In a restricted area, such as a closed canton, that's something you'll want. In medieval cities, enclosed by their city walls, space was extremely valued. Making city walls isn't cheap, so their periphery was as small as they could get away with, meaning the protected area was reduced. To accommodate for a growing population that preferred to be within the walls than outside, people would pile up more floors over existing houses, jutting a bit more over the street at each floor.

Those leaning walls have the same basic idea in mind.

[greendogo]

I would like to see additional tower concepts as well as some larger buildings, like barracks or municipal buildings. The smaller buildings are great and all, but it leaves me wondering about some of the other buildings. Do the corner motifs just get stretched and enlarged to fit a larger building, or should there be different shapes and bits?

Edit:

Why should n'wahs and slaves be allowed to see their betters?

To make them suffer in their squalor? (And to remind them who's in charge)

[Chin Music]

[img]http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5608/dresso4.png[/img]

As you can see on this tiny picture, a slanted canton loses horizontal room for the slope, compared to a flat surface. A leaning canton, on the other hand, gains that much more room instead of losing it.

In a restricted area, such as a closed canton, that's something you'll want. In medieval cities, enclosed by their city walls, space was extremely valued. Making city walls isn't cheap, so their periphery was as small as they could get away with, meaning the protected area was reduced. To accommodate for a growing population that preferred to be within the walls than outside, people would pile up more floors over existing houses, jutting a bit more over the street at each floor.

Those leaning walls have the same basic idea in mind.

You make a good point, but what I'm worried about is that the lowest area will end up the smallest. The lowest tier is apparently planned to be a market of some kind, the most accessible part of the city, and trying to best capture the feel of oppression rising all around you. It needs to be large enough to reflect that, but the problem with this design is that with every enlargement of the lowest tier, the higher tiers increase even more.

So here's a problem. A top tier that is the right size might cause a bottom tier that's too small. A bottom tier the right size might cause the top tier (and indeed, the entire city) to be too large.

It's true that with the walls leaning in, you gain as much ground as you lose, but on a higher level. And I think barring some sort of brilliant innovation, we'll want to find the perfect balance of upper and lower tier sizes.

Let's just say for the sake of example, that the bottom tier is 3 metres long by 3 metres wide. 9 square metres. Then lets say that each subsequent tier up must extend 1 metre in each direction past the bottom tier. So that would make the second tier 5x5 metres, less the size of the bottom tier. 16 square metres. The next tier would be 7x7 metres, and would have 33 square metres.

See what I mean? Despite the fact the central plaza should be the "main" part of the city, every tier upwards increases area exponentially to the point where even an average size plaza could result in a horrific monstrosity of a city with loads of empty space in the upper tiers. What is the perfect balance of size?

[greendogo]

Gez, I agree with Chin. It's the pyramid effect of classes. There's bound to be more people on the bottom and so they'll take up more room. I can only see it working out if you give enough room to the lower levels, because at least then the upper class levels will be large (huge). It would give the feeling that the lower class's place in the world is smaller than that of the upper class's. Also it would go along with the upper class's inflated ego.

Edit: It might work better if only one of the walls leans outward. At least then the increase in each level's size isn't as large.

[Chin Music]

It's not just size of each additional tier I'm worried about, it's the size of the entire city. Where are you going to put something that big? Is it realistic to even attempt to build something like that? Is it going to lag people's computers?

You can partially solve the problem of not enough low level space by "hollowing out" the bottom of the canton to make a sort of underground interior, but then that detracts from the central plaza.

A few questions I think need to be answered are:
Exactly how big is this city going to be? Is it a major city? Minor city? Capital city? Is it important enough to warrant the presence of nobles?
Exactly what is going to be placed on each tier? The general consensus seems to be Bottom = trade, Middle = middle class, Upper = upper class. How much trade is going to take place on that bottom tier? Are we talking like every kind of merchant, or just very basic marketplace type ones? Given the size of the city, just how many shops should there be anyway? Will there be slave pens in that bottom tier? That's additional required space. Is there going to be a lower class?

I've thought hard about it, and here's my thoughts.
1. The city is relatively large in size. A major city definitely, but not a capital of anything. A Dres councillor probably lives here.
2. Given its shape, it should be placed very defensively in the environment. Either right on the border, or on a large plateau in a plain.
Bottom Tier: The open section of this city should be a sleazy marketplace. Not in the sense that it's a hotbed of crime, but just mostly cheap, useless goods. It should be treated as a place where merchants are constantly coming and going (not literally of course). Stalls, not buildings. There should be about 10 or so merchants, and they should be absolutely packed in, wall to wall.
The inside of the canton on the bottom tier would have the common housing. It would also have various ramps leading up to the middle tier and potentially some basic permanent services such as a temple or a blacksmith.
Note: Somewhere in this area should be fairly conspicuous paths leading down to the underground, where the slave markets are.

Middle Tier: There is no "interior plaza" in this section, but the houses here are often cut into the canton for more room. This contains middle class housing and some more permanent, better quality merchants. On each inside corner is a small watchtower, used to overlook the marketplace of the bottom tier. There are also more ramps up to the top tier here. (The ramps may have to be protected somehow to prevent just anyone from entering). Organisations such as the Morag Tong might make an appearence on this tier.

Top Tier: Nobles, wealthy, councilmen, etc. Pretty much all just estates except for maybe one or two very fine merchants, as well as perhaps any Dres administrative offices and potentially guard housing. Loads of space, so each resident is given an extremely generous plot (there should probably be between 5 and 10 buildings here). Between the high tower houses are terraces, statues, banners, whatever. These will have to be designed to be suitable for Dres nobility. Nothing too fancy, but keep in mind the top tier is an area that commoners are pretty much never supposed to see. Since this is the top of the city, there is no cutting into the canton at all here. There might potentially be watchtowers on the inside corners again.

Basically, look at the concept art for Canton 3. On the top tier, reduce the amount of "thickness" in the top tier platforms, then push the middle tier around to match. Use the added space to increase the size of the central plaza.

[Adanorcil]

I think we're overthinking the class difference situation a little too much. It's perhaps a good idea for inspiration, but we shouldn't take it too far either. At any rate, we cannot display demographics on a realistic scale, because there would be fifty commoners to every nobleman. What is more important is that all the classes are iconically represented. Issues of scale, realism and such are not hand right now. We are still looking for a style.


In regards to those size issues, though: Obviously, the blue tiers in my/Gez's cross sections would be rife with halls and chambers. This would mean that the people at the bottom would live primarily in rather claustrophobic chambers and galleries, whereas the ones on top would get progressively more light, air, and free-standing buildings.

[Chin Music]

I think we're overthinking the class difference situation a little too much. It's perhaps a good idea for inspiration, but we shouldn't take it too far either. At any rate, we cannot display demographics on a realistic scale, because there would be fifty commoners to every nobleman. What is more important is that all the classes are iconically represented. Issues of scale, realism and such are not hand right now. We are still looking for a style.


In regards to those size issues, though: Obviously, the blue tiers in my/Gez's cross sections would be rife with halls and chambers. This would mean that the people at the bottom would live primarily in rather claustrophobic chambers and galleries, whereas the ones on top would get progressively more light, air, and free-standing buildings.

Yes, that was kind of what I was going for with my plan. There are more commoners than nobles, but not that much more. The main difference is that while the commoners live low, in cramped, squalid condition, the nobles live right up high with huge amounts of property and their own standalone buildings (At this point, towers do not have to be high at all. The top tier is likely so high up already any towers would just get consumed by the view distance.)

[Túrelio]

Haha relax guys, I got at least half a dozen ideas to solve all the issues you are stating here.

First, the actual art of the canton #3 concept is of a grandeur scale than it would appear in-game, as I stated. So my next concepts for fleshing out this idea will focus on being of a more acceptable scale.

@greendogo - If I understand what you are saying correctly, yes the canton models themselves are going to be blank slates with little to no structures on them, I don't think there was every a question of that, it is how the Vivec cantons where done and quite a few other things in Morrowind. Also, I'm going to try and do some concepts using some of the housing structure styles I have come up with for depicting the next round of concepts for the cantons.

@Music_Chin - Unfortunately your reasoning is flawed. You assume that each tier must be of equal or more space, when in fact the actual space could get smaller as it goes up. Yes the space in between each level is going to get bigger no matter what, but I don't believe this will be a problem. Additionally the lowest level/district can go underground or into the walls. Also, market district does not have to be on the bottom level as I said before, it could be one level above that, there for also the player would be looking down into the slave "pit" when he/she first enters.

I believe that you should be able to see the structures of each level from all the others, this seems fundamental to the idea of the upper-class reveling in their caste system, be being able to directly observe it from a distance, and the lower-classes to be constantly watched and reminded of it.

Also you guys are thinking of this in terms of just how it looks, when really this is simply meant to visually explain the concept, not yet actually be what it will look like. I think there could potentially be several cantons, it seems to make sense as a canton is a division of governing, that there has to be at least another to this division. I envision something like 3 cantons either as large or smaller than the vivec cantons themselves, in a triangle, with crisscrossing bridges and stuff on the outside as well as the inside, and either on one or in a separate and smaller canton, the Dres Council House. The cantons themselves would be smaller divisions of Dres family clans, grouped together in some common trade or alliances.

However it is quite possible that we can make additional cantons of the same idea but on a even smaller scale or with fewer levels as that to be used in other urban Dres settlements. I don't believe however that all Dres settlements should be a canton.

Overall Tear if using three-four cantons in the way and size I described would and should still be significatnly smaller than Vivec, Almalexia, or even Port Telvannis. In the number of structures they MIGHT compare(although I don't think so either), but in the actual footprint they will be smaller for sure. Just think of three Vivec cantons, roughly, placed together and you have your size.

Anyhow, no need to get worried. I have some pretty good ideas to bring to the discussion that unfortunately will just have to wait till next week.

I think we're overthinking the class difference situation a little too much. It's perhaps a good idea for inspiration, but we shouldn't take it too far either. At any rate, we cannot display demographics on a realistic scale, because there would be fifty commoners to every nobleman. What is more important is that all the classes are iconically represented. Issues of scale, realism and such are not hand right now. We are still looking for a style.


In regards to those size issues, though: Obviously, the blue tiers in my/Gez's cross sections would be rife with halls and chambers. This would mean that the people at the bottom would live primarily in rather claustrophobic chambers and galleries, whereas the ones on top would get progressively more light, air, and free-standing buildings.

Exactly, Adanorcil has touched on it all very well. First and foremost, this is just a concept, not even what it would look like, that will be next week. The levels don't have to be separated to that degree, especially for the lower levels, there will likely be plenty of bridges and stairs going from one to the other, not only to combine them better but so it wont be such a hassle for the PC to move from one to the other during quests.

[Chin Music]

The inverted style canton seems like it would be difficult to pull off on a small scale.

I suppose something that might interesting like you said would to have three smaller ones, with the upper-class canton actually being on a high hill and connected to the lower ones somehow.

Personally, I don't think cantons should really have much of a presence at all, much less comprise the city of Tear. The idea has gone so far beyond its original iteration (one word in a book), that it can hardly be called relevant to that small lore piece anymore. Basically what I'm saying is that having huge canton fortress cities is just about as "lore-correct" as not having them at all.

I'd much rather see the efforts going into having an extremely large, diverse set with the potential for lots of creativity instead of a fairly boring stock set which has one outstanding city because that's where all the resources went.

Really, I'm only going into such depth because this is where the discussion is going, and it seems like something others want to pursue. The problem is they (and I) have only a few concepts to base this off, and all ideas have sprouted from there while the potential for new ideas is limited because no one else can design very well. You see Turelio, we are merely floundering buffoons without your art to guide us to the promised land.

[Túrelio]

Well, just call me Saint Veloth and let me show you the way lol. Seriously tho, it is not nearly as dire as you think, and I assure you I will make certain that there is diversity and creativity put as fully in non-canton designs and there is in canton designs.

I know it was just a throw away line, and that it wouldn't be the first time that the little details where ignored or changed, but I really hate to consciously deviate lore when I can help it while still creating what is needed. If we couldn't achieved our desired effect, I think scrapping the idea would be find, but I believe we can.

Oh and the potential for new ideas is only limited by how well you guys are able to describe to me what you envision, as I take from your ideas as much as I add my own, and really when I add my own ideas, it is so the concept better achieves what I think you were attempting to tell me usually.

[Eraser]

Here's a little brainstorming on my part:

Personally I like the idea of smaller cantons and having some regular city planning around it. I picture Tear like that, a bunch of small cantons with some space in between them, with lower class buildings and markets taking up the actual ground level clustered around the cantons and in the streets between them. Then there would be manors and slave markets above on the cantons with bridges between them, but still on a much smaller scale than Vivec. I'm thinking cantons no higher than one or two stories, open tops with a few buildings on top. Like something half-way between design 1 and 3.

Then we could do a single whole city the style of 3, which could be something along a border and meant to be something of a slaving fortress, and then smaller settlements could just have the standard structures.....looking at the maps, Dres doesn't appear to have many cities. Tear is the closest to the border and would be more fortress-like as 3...but the design isn't suitable as the entirety of a capital.

[immortal_pigs]

Time to join in with the fun.

First of all Turelio, your art is pretty awesome. I'm a big fan of the two Ziggurats, and of course number 3. I'm neutral regarding the houses but not such a great fan of the current tower concepts.

About the Ziggurats, I agree they should have the function of a fortress, and be smaller then the current MW cantons. I like the idea of having around 2, 4, or 6 of those Zigurrats in Dres land, placed at strategic locations such as along a river or on top of a hill. I think having the Ziggurats function as fortresses is the only function acceptable for them.

That said, I think we should create the Dres architecture from the inside out, rather than draw cool stuff and try to make it fit.

From what I've read about the Dres they seem to have the following attributes:
- They have a primarily agricultural society, having the most common similarities with classical Egypt or ancient Mesopotamia.
- In an agricultural society the most common and perhaps important profession is that of the farmer, and rivers are of high importance.
- They are ruled by an oligarchy, meaning something like the top 5% rule everyone else. That's why you have a few very rich people, and a lot of poor farmers and slaves.
- The Dres are still somewhat backward regarding their society as in there is hardly no middle class. Since they are still an agricultural society there is little need for a different profession other than farming.
- Tear would be the obvious exception to this rule, since this city has grown considerably large and as a result does have a need for professional potters, clothiers, alchemists, etc.... Next to Tear these kinds of services would only be available in the larger Dres cities.
- In general most Dres towns and villiges will have only the most basic services, with anything of a higher level being in the large cities.
- Since there are basically 4 classes (Nobles/Aristocracy - Soldiers/Caretakers - Plebs/Farmers - Slaves), there are only to kinds of services: High Quality for the rich, anf Low Quality for the poor. There is no middle ground regarding this.
- An outside perception of the Dres is that they are Xenophobic, but the Dres themselves would never assign such a quality to themselves. Rather, the Dres Nobility considers itself to be better and greater then others, while the poor farmers have little ambition but do feel themselves better then outlanders and the such, since they have no need of what outsiders might come to bring.
- Dres bulidings are not built with the intention to give outsiders the idea "hey, they must be xenophoobs", this is simply a common side effect. Dres bulidings are built in a way that reflects the Dres culture and thinking.
- The Dres Nobility gets rich from 2 things: the large scale exporting of crops, and the trading of slaves. Anything else is unimportant to the Dres.

So based on the above, there is one thing that I'd like to see embodies by the Dres; there is no middle class.
The poor live in small abysmal housings, while the rich live in oversized and extravagant manors. There is an obvious separation between these two classes, with the Nobility nearly always being above the poor, either symbolically or literally.

Other than that, I think the Dres do not really care for having pretty things on the outside. So, like everyone before me has said, their buildings will look cold and unwelcoming on the outside. Not because they want to scare outlanders away (they don't give a * about outlanders), but because they have no need for pretty outsides and because it is part of their culture.


Edit: I'm opposed to the idea of planned cities; planned cities are genereally made by the more advanced civilizations. For example the Romans made planned square fortresses or modern day America makes streets in such a way that square blocks are created.

I think the Dres culture is not yet unified or advanced enough to work with planned city building. Rather, the distinction between Nobility and Lower Class would come to part trough a gradual process; the Nobility will always want to stick together en will thusly form some sort of congregation. The Lower Class will consequently be situated around and below the Nobility (assuming the Nobels prefer to live on higher ground).

[Eraser]

Also, I think something designed around canton 3 would look really nice if hidden away in a forest of some sort. With the treetops around the edge as this one little hole in the forest difficult to see from outside.

[Gez]

- On space available for each tier:
The space within the "pyramid walls" is used much more efficiently than the "open" space in the "funnel plaza". That is to say, there is actually much more available room in the lower tier because the plaza takes up less space. As you rise in tiers, there is more room "wasted" to an open area and the rather inefficient idea of buildings-within-a-building.

-On the absence of a middle class:
The Dres middle class is made of people who do not own many slaves; maybe one or two at most. Those are skilled artisans and people having jobs that require a certain level of education, but which doesn't pay much. The top of the elite are those who do not have jobs but live off their wealth and off the workforce they own. The bottom is made of slaves and people who are, practically, slaves themselves (indentured servants for example).

-On planned cities:
Vivec, Molag Mar, the new Mournhold, the old Chimer/Dunmer strongholds, etc. all show that the Dunmer civilization is one that is perfectly able to create planned cities. Keep in mind that, like the Americans, they are a nation of developed pioneers who colonized a new land -- originally, they were High Elves from the Summerset Isles. That the cities grew organically around the cantons is certainly possible, though.

[Greybeard]

Hope everyone is reading as well as posting - there's a lot of good material being tossed around! I just had a couple of thoughts as I read through the last couple of pages.

First, every king has his castle. Lesser kings would have more modest castles, of course, down to "simple" manors. I'm thinking that "canton" might actually be a misnomer here. We shouldn't be thinking in terms of Vivec at all. But as Gez pointed out, organized cities are well within the Drez' capabilities.

I still like the open-center pyramid (canton 3) concept. And as a modeller, I think the technical problems of making modular sections are small. (Majra, jump in here.) The cramped lower/slave class areas in the pyramid base is a very good use of the area, and would have appealed to the elite. Certainly smaller single- and double- height cantons (I'm beginning to dislike that term) can be made from the modules. Likewise, the guardtowers and upper level homes would be modular to provide variety.

As with any confined structure (I'm thinking castle walls, moats, etc., here), there would be poor housing outside the "wall" as well. No, I am NOT saying we should add moats to every - or any - city that's just an example of a confining structure!!!

Now, how about that discussion of whether there will be only one or two of these edifices, or whether this branch of Drez used this concept for all/many of its cities/towns/villages?

[Túrelio]

It is pretty well established that Dres has a middle-class from most of our lore on them, and also to clarify, some of the middle-class can be important individuals in the slave trade, so that suggests that slavers are neither the richest of the rich, or that the upper elite all have their hands in the slave trade. It probably goes both ways quite a bit, and I am sure that the nearly all the classes have their hands in some level of the slave trade. Most civilizations that trade heavily have a well defined middle-class, usually made up of the merchants and artisans, which we know Dres has both.

This may not pertain to the time period of TR, but I had a thought about how Dres in the future. With slavery abolished, and them most likely adopting a system of indentured servitude, they will require prisons for debtors, or some other form of punishment, otherwise the debtors will simply leave. These prisons could be the current slave pits or a separate structure themselves, or they might not be built yet, as they have no need for it.

[greendogo]

I think believing that the Dres have almost no middle class would be a bit of a mistake. They also have middle class merchants besides the artisans that Gez mentions and the the slave traders that Turelio mentions.

immortal_pigs - You said that House Drew was not unified or advanced enough for city planning (and also I assume this is one point in your argument for them having no middle class).

The problem is, the civilization that forms the back bone of Dres society is very advanced. It is as old as the other great houses, except it has advanced the subjugation of their "property" to an art form. In my mind, the Dres are like the evil twin of the Hlaalu. They're both commercial houses, trading in goods and having large agricultural industries. However, whereas, Dres enslaves people and is the epitome of Dunmeri xenophobia, House Hlaalu is buddy buddy with the empire and slavery is outlawed. How civilized would you say House Hlaalu is? I would say that House Dres is just as civilized as House Hlaalu, only in different ways (I mean, as we've brought up in discussion, the Dres might have sophisticated water management systems, that's pretty civilized).

The point is, they definitely have the civilization to warrant city planning, and Tear is definitely in the right place for a fortress city. They also almost definitely have a substantial middle class (as much as the Telvanni, probably), full of merchants and slave traders.

[Aeven]

I have to agree with greendogo on the entire Evil Hlaalu Twin thing.

As for Tear, it's very near the Black Marsh border, which has traditionally been both vague and the centre of conflicts.

[immortal_pigs]

Vivec, Molag Mar, the new Mournhold, the old Chimer/Dunmer strongholds, etc. all show that the Dunmer civilization is one that is perfectly able to create planned cities. Keep in mind that, like the Americans, they are a nation of developed pioneers who colonized a new land -- originally, they were High Elves from the Summerset Isles. That the cities grew organically around the cantons is certainly possible, though.

Allow me to rephrase then; since the Dres are one of Morrowinds eldest Houses, I'd say that all the old (and subsequently large) cities would have an organic build while the younger *cities* could have a planned layout. That way we could say that the canton/fortresses are quite new additions to the Dres landscape.


I dislike the idea of having planned cities/cantons with organic outgrowth around them.

The Dres middle class is made of people who do not own many slaves; maybe one or two at most. Those are skilled artisans and people having jobs that require a certain level of education, but which doesn't pay much. The top of the elite are those who do not have jobs but live off their wealth and off the workforce they own. The bottom is made of slaves and people who are, practically, slaves themselves (indentured servants for example).

Well yes, depending on the criteria you apply, you can always create a middle class. I can accept that there is some sort of a middle class, but I'd have to say there is but a small difference between the middle and lower class, which is why I grouped them together based on perceived income.


Also, the way I look at it, the Dres are basically the most backward MW society because they serve all other Houses through agriculture. Basically the greatest amount of Morrowind's fertile land is held by the Dres, and all other Houses are reliant on Dres crops. The Redoran for example live in very inhospitible land, the Telvanni generally live on infertile rocky terrain and the Hlaalu are more focused on trade and artisanship rather then agriculture. The Indoril are an exception since they do have quite some fertile land, but still nothing in comparisson to the Dres.

The Hlaalu are able to be traders since farming is taken care of by the Dres. The Redoran are able to be warriors since farming is taken care of by the Dres. The Telvanni are able to focus on magic since farming is taken care of by the Dres. The Indoril are able to maintain a balanced society since farming is taken care of by the Dres.

Every Great House in Morrowind has a general role, that of the Dres is to supply the foods. As a result, the Dres don't have the *resources* to focus on a strong military, nor the luxury to indulge themselves in the magical arts. In the great Dres cities there is room for artisanship and more sophisticated trade, but other than that they have only farming and slaves.

And they're happy to keep it that way, since the Nobility profits from the food and slave trade, and the normal Dres dunmer are able to survive without complaints, I'd say probably better then Telvanni locals in any case. One of the reasons the Dres would be aggressive against outlanders is because they're simply not needed. The Dres role in Morrowind and their subsequent traditions and customs have served them for centuries, so they don't need any outlanders bringing new ideas and changes of any kind.

I agree with Greendogo that the Dres society does have it's own form of balance, though I still think they are not as *advanced* as other MW Houses.


Edit:
When I spoke of unification I meant that the Dres are more of an oligarchy rather than a monarchy. They don't really have a great leader whom they will blindly obediate. The Redoran and Indoril both have real authoritative leaders. The Hlaalu have somewhat of a representational face as a leader, the Telvanni have the most powerful wizard as a leader. The Dres would be more similar to the Hlaalu regarding leadership, meaning that being [Highest Rank] doesn't really mean that much.

The way I see it, the Great House Dres is basically in existance due to the monopoly it creates for the parties involved; individually, the countless landowners would drive down the prices for crops due to individual competition. Together, the unified landowners can create a fixed price, group their crops together, and export on a far larger scale, which is of benefit to all parties involved. However, the larger landowners profit the most, and this is why having a lot of land equals status in the Dres society, and why all the council members will own a lot of land.

Now the other MW Houses also benefit from this system, because in this way they are able to import on a large scale which is easier than importing from hundreds of farmers individually.

So basically, the Dres would cease to exist (or would at least never have been founded) if there was no profit to be made from creating a monopoly.

[Gez]

Allow me to rephrase then; since the Dres are one of Morrowinds eldest Houses, I'd say that all the old (and subsequently large) cities would have an organic build while the younger *cities* could have a planned layout. That way we could say that the canton/fortresses are quite new additions to the Dres landscape.

To the contrary, I see them making those planned things when they first arrive, settle the new land, and they don't yet truly "know" it, see? So they force it into shapes that represent their ideas, their culture, by making these cantons.

Then progressively little settlements here and there grow to be cities, but they aren't the big organized things from the Exodus, so they're built without a rigorous planning. Further, they have begin to adapt to the land, to consider it theirs, so they respect the landscape more and try to fit in rather than reshape it.

And so, it is the earliest cities that have cantons -- like Tear -- and the more recent ones -- such as all the little towns here and there do not.

I dislike the idea of having planned cities/cantons with organic outgrowth around them.

Too bad for you, then. Because I like it.

[greendogo]

Too bad for you, then. Because I like it.

Ha ha

Anyways, I can imagine that the city of Vivec has been rebuilt several times and that the canton version we see in game is only a recent (last 200 years or newer) development. So I can imagine that the Dres could build new cantons to replace older structures. However, I'm going to mostly agree with you Gez. The cantons are likely to have been built much earlier than "organicly placed" towns (or however you want to say it). Vivec's cantons are probably newer than the settlement at Vivec is, though. But I'd imagine a rich Temple city like that could afford more renovations than Tear anyways. So it isn't really a good comparison.

[Adanorcil]

Too bad for you, then. Because I like it.

Ha ha

Anyways, I can imagine that the city of Vivec has been rebuilt several times and that the canton version we see in game is only a recent (last 200 years or newer) development. So I can imagine that the Dres could build new cantons to replace older structures. However, I'm going to mostly agree with you Gez. The cantons are likely to have been built much earlier than "organicly placed" towns (or however you want to say it). Vivec's cantons are probably newer than the settlement at Vivec is, though. But I'd imagine a rich Temple city like that could afford more renovations than Tear anyways. So it isn't really a good comparison.

The idea that more geometrically organized cities are necessarily newer is pretty random, not too mention too boring to consider.

[greendogo]

@Adanorcil - I wasn't thinking about the sophistication of the Dres. And so I think they certainly know how to build them. I was thinking about the money required to build the cantons. I'm really just trying to imagine how new/old the cantons should look. Would they be replacements for older cantons, or are the cantons we would see the ones the Dres built a long time ago.

All that stuff about Vivec cantons is irrelevant when talking about the Dres. That was what my conclusion was after I wrote my previous post.

What I mean is that I think the cantons in Vivec would be built for an entirely different purpose than the cantons/ziggurats/fortress cities that the Dres would build. Vivec is a Tribunal city, whereas whatever city the cantons would be used in is a Dres city with commercial/agricultural/political/strategic importance that is completely different in nature to Vivec.

[Harke the Apostle]

We should design Tear cantons that are based on the cantons in Vivec (same shapes and textures), but are much more slender (four should fit more or less in a Vivec canton, while having the same height).
That way we might reuse the vanilla Velothi interior architecture pieces.

The cantons, which house the families of House Dres and their favorites, look a bit like a mangrove (or a crouching spider or maybe a termite mound) and tower above the shanty town of shacks and docks where everybody else lives.
A series of slender arches connect the upper floors of the various cantons so the Dres nobility need not concern themselves with the paupers below.

Perhaps the Dres themselves can also be transported around on the backs of those flying insects?

[url=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9132/img002hy9.jpg][img]http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9132/img002hy9.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[greendogo]

Harke - I think the general idea is not to reuse the vanilla Velothi pieces. I just try to imagine Dres architecture as the velothi set's evil brother. Darker and more oppressive.

Anyways
Your concept is interesting and conveys the general idea of what you wrote I think, but I don't see how it would fit the Dres, especially if we placed those canton/towers in the Deshaan Plains. Though the idea of making them like a termite mound is entertaining.

Now, if we were to place a canton/tower like those in Tear, there would be the problem of practicality. One of my favorite reasons for Dres/Tear cantons is as a way to make their most southern city defensible against Argonian incursion.

I do however like how you made the smaller structures around the base. It's almost like they're living beside a cliff. The feeling from looking up from that point could be pretty powerful.

The idea of having multiple smaller cantons connected by bridges has been proposed before. I think your picture is more interesting when I imagine more buildings between the two cantons, with more cantons and bridges going out from different levels of each canton, or perhaps even some spires coming up from the ground between the cantons to connect with bridges.

[Gez]

We should design Tear cantons that are based on the cantons in Vivec (same shapes and textures), but are much more slender (four should fit more or less in a Vivec canton, while having the same height).

No. The "crowned funnel" concept that has been developed above would require a big canton to work.

That way we might reuse the vanilla Velothi interior architecture pieces.

Most definitely not.