Ald Seraynis [a possible new Map3 settlement]

[immortal_pigs]

Location:
In the swamps of Map3.

Pics:
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/index.php?picture=m3_wilderness_45.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/index.php?picture=m3_wilderness_42.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/index.php?picture=m3_wilderness_43.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/index.php?picture=m3_wilderness_44.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=3

History:
Deep in the swamps of Map3 lies the ancient bastion of Tribunal faith, Ald Seraynis. Once a Daedric stronghold for Mehrunes Dagon, Als Seraynis was liberated by the Indoril general Uradas Seraynis under the guidance of Almalexia.
Her Majesty Almalexia persuaded the Indoril to build a temple at the Daedric Ruin in order to honor the triumph of the new Tribunal over the old Daedra gods.

Over the many years more faithfull started to settle in and around the Temple, which was built inside the Daedric Ruin itself. Some came to honor the site of Tribunal dominance, while others came to study the records and artifacts obtained from the long slain cultists. In effect, these students became the first official Witchhunters of the Tribunal Temple, for they studied and came to learn the weaknesses of the Temple's Daedric foes.

In the beginning Ald Seraynis primarily attracted those wanting to combat the minions of Mehrunes Dagon. But since the knowledge on Mehrunes Dagon was also applicable to other fields of Witchhunting, soon hunters of the wicked of all sorts came to gather at Ald Seraynis. In this way, more and more knowledge and experience was gathered, and Ald Seraynis became the unofficial headquarters of the Temple's divine enforcers.

There was another factor attracting the Witchhunters and Crusaders to Ald Seraynis, though. You see, the swamps of Map3 had always served as a haven of rest for those unfit to function in a moral society. The great swampy flatness was infested with necromancers, cultists, outlaws and other creatures undeservant of life. And so the swamps provided a training ground of sorts for the pious to do the bidding of the Tribune.

The Temple came to see the validity of Ald Seraynis' existance, and made it an official center for the destruction of the foul. The many Witchhunters and Crusaders were asked to join a newly created Temple order, and where later incorporated as a sub-section of the Ordinators. A new function was created, that of Grand Inquisitor, and only the most zealous of Ordinators was appointed. The Grand Inquisitor was given absolute authority over the order in Ald Seraynis and answers only to the Patriarch or Matriarch of the Temple. This tradition has carried on and lasts until this day.
EDIT:
The underscored part can be replaced by the Order of War/Inquisition. So the Grand Inquisitor would simply be the head of one of those two Orders.

Basic Idea/Comments:
So the basic idea is a Daedric Ruin in the middle of a swamp which functions as an HQ for the Temple's Witchhuning and Crusading activities.

It was said that Map3 would probably get a few more settlements, so this is the one I'm proposing.

Now the Grand Inquisitor part is a bit overpowered so this guy could be demoted to Head Inquisitor or something like that. I don't know how the Ordinator's hierarchy is put together, but I'd say the HI is one rank below the highest Ordinator rank.

In any case having a sort of sub-section of the Ordiantors dealing solely with Witchhunting and the combating of heretics and necromancers could be a lot of fun. It could aslo just be a part of the Ordinators as well and not a sub-section.

But you could have quests asking the PC to go into the swamps and find Daedric Ruins, and a lot of fighting between cultists and the Temple.

You could aslo get a sort of 'forbidden library', like the secret library underneath the Ranyon-ruhn Temple. Personally I think that library is one of the coolest things in all of TR, though it seems like a lot for just one normal Temple. So my idea would be a library maybe twice/thrice as large though with the same kind of confiscasted books etc...

Ald Seraynis could also have a jail and 'inquiring cell', where captured cultists and the sorts are being held.

The town itself would maybe have a few Indoril buildings outside around the Deadric Ruin, and a very large Temple/Indoril interior inside mixed with some Deadric.


EDIT:
The faction situated here could be the Order of War, or the Order of Inquisition. Or a combination of both. They are backed by lore and their the arms of Almsivi.

[Chin Music]

I didn't even know TR was planning to make House Indoril joinable. And even if it was, could an outlander player rise to a high enough rank in the House to need their own stronghold?

As for the Ordinators, it's not a bad idea. Particularly in Indoril territory, there would doubtless be Ordinators dispatched to places like Daedric ruins to deal with the cults there. The Order of Inquisition deals more with internal heresy though, the Order of War are the ones concerned with blasphemers.

[Akul]

I didn't even know TR was planning to make House Indoril joinable. And even if it was, could an outlander player rise to a high enough rank in the House to need their own stronghold?

IMO, advancement should be either harder or the story would need to explain why you manage to rise so high even tough you are an outlander.
But then again, the only reason you have ben able to rise so high in Vvardanfel might have been because you always had a high-up who would support you.

[Chin Music]

Yeah, but with Indoril it seems less likely. I mean these are the guys who would rather kill themselves than submit to the Empire.

Still, I don't think they're quite as bad as say, House Dres. Indoril just hates the Empire a whole lot, Dres hates everybody. If it were up to me, which it isn't, I'd probably have Indoril joinable, but capped at a low rank like the Blades. Or maybe your rank in House Indoril is limited by your rank in the Temple. The higher you go in the Temple, the higher you can go in House Indoril.

Although I suppose you could do something like with the Redoran questline. Save the life of a council member to gain their support or something like that.

[Peterboy]

(offtopic)
Please forget this outlander shit... the player can be the leader of the Telvanni and the Mage Guild at the same time, even if he is a Khajiit... Even in House Indoril and Dres can be liberal nobels, such as Aryon.

Creating the remaining two Houses playable could be realy awesome, and besides, what does it means harder? Harder then what?
(/offtopic)

Interresting idea, I'm curious what the Core thinks about it.

[Gez]

An inquisitor stronghold in a daedric city? This does not strike me as being really pertinent. They'd raze it to the ground, for the "commemoration thing" they'd be keeping only a stone block in the middle of a plaza.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

(offtopic)
Please forget this outlander shit... the player can be the leader of the Telvanni and the Mage Guild at the same time, even if he is a Khajiit... Even in House Indoril and Dres can be liberal nobels, such as Aryon.

Creating the remaining two Houses playable could be realy awesome, and besides, what does it means harder? Harder then what?
(/offtopic)

Yep. I agree with Peti here. There's nothing fun about keeping the player out of Indoril or Dres.

As to the 'settlement in a Daedric ruin', wouldn't they have built something nice on top, or at least cleaned it up a bit (i.e. won't this look a little strange - because the ruin will still be 'ruined', and it won't look professional)

Other than that, this ruin I recall as being quite badly made, not very interesting. (And also what Gez said)


I like the name Seraynis, though.

[Hemitheon]

BC: "I like the name Seraynis, though."

I concur. Maybe we could renamed Seyda Vano into (Ald) Seraynis. Seyda Vano is just an awful name.

[gro-Dhal]

Seyda Vano is a good name. Seraynis is also a good name.

[immortal_pigs]

Well I figured it was the idea all Great Houses of Morrowind would be made joinable by TR.

That Seyda Vano would be the players stronghold wasn't my idea. It wouldn't be my top choice in any case, but I thought most everyone new that. You can check it here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20818, you'll have to scroll down though.

Now the way I was thinking when I saw that ruin in the middle of the Map3 swamps was, 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the Temple had a center for Witchhunters and the likes inside a Daedric Ruin in the middle of a swamp.'

I figured that some of the talented exterior modders would be able to make it look awesome on the outside, and the interior modders could make it awesome on the inside. It would be one of the detailing claims for Map3, I guess.

So I didn't think any further than that and just assumed the aforementioned modders would be able to make this into something awesome.

If the Seraynis name is stolen for the fortress then maybe a substitute would be Seranis.

[Gnomey]

A pretty lousy excuse for a substitute, as it's Seraynis minus one letter. While it might be a good idea in itself, I think that the fortress would have to be really tiny, so as to warrant its not appearing on a map, and the ruin simply isn't tiny. As for the back story, I agree that the temple would have probably torn down the shrine.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

If this idea doesn't go ahead, I'm tempted to suggest we nab Seraynis (or 'Serayn' - we kinda overuse the '-is' suffix a bit) for Sailen Vulgate.

Getting even more OT here, but: I disagree that Seyda Vano is a good name. However, I think we can all agree that Sailen Vulgate is a worse one.

[Hemitheon]

Good point, SV is in more need of a new name.

[Gez]

Now the way I was thinking when I saw that ruin in the middle of the Map3 swamps was, 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the Temple had a center for Witchhunters and the likes inside a Daedric Ruin in the middle of a swamp.'

To which I can only reply, "uh, well, no. No it wouldn't."

Good point, SV is in more need of a new name.

By "SV", you mean Sailen Vano or Seyda Vulgate?

[immortal_pigs]

Well then maybe you can propose an alternative, an alteration, an addition, a way to make it work, a new location, etc...
Or you can just decide that the idea sucks and there is absolutely no conceivable way to salvage it in any way or to use it as an inspiration for something new and that the name is the only good thing about the whole idea. [Which is sort of the indication I'm getting from everyone here. ]

Now I could try to defend the idea of it being able to look cool. I mean, some of the exterior modders are able to make awesome and scenic settlements like Almalexia, Firewatch, Akamora, Port Telvannis, but they're also able to make smaller exteriors of high quality, such as Gorne, Tel Mothrivra and Tel Ouada. Some interior modders on the otherside are able to create astounding interiors using a combination of styles, like the Tel Mothrivra Monastery and others.

So I thought with all the talented modders there might be some who'd look at the combination of Daedric and Indoril, and get an ingenious idea on how to implement it.

But I'm neither an interior modder or and exterior modder, so I could just be spewing out nonsense.


Please discuss the idea of a new settlement, rather then focus on the name. I think there is a name-change topic somewhere around here so I think that's where you can discuss if Seyda Vano and Sailen Vulgate suck. If you think the idea has no potential whatsoever, say so. If you have some critique on the idea, then at least post a fix or an alternative. I think a collaborative approach could help make the idea better.

[Gnomey]

The problem isn't that the modders wouldn't manage to make the place look good, it's that having a group of Ordinators with a base in a Daedric ruin doesn't work. If the Ordinators decided to use the location, they certainly wouldn't let the old shrine stay standing. I like the idea, especially having one region have more "troublemakers" than other regions, but the settlement shouldn't be anywhere near the Daedric ruin, IMO.

[immortal_pigs]

Okay so the idea is that the Temple would have torn down the Deadric Ruin and wouldn't want to have a stronghold in it. Well I think I can make up a good excuse for that, which would be lore-friendly.

[Correct me if I'm wrong.]
Now I know that somewhere in Lore it states that Almalexia (the goddess) came into conflict with Mehrunes Dagon, and that the Daedric Prince even destroyed Almalexia (the city) once.

Now let's say that during this conflict, Almalexia ordered the Indoril general Seraynis to destroy Mehranukilozanis [which was the name of the Ruin], which was an important cult of Mehrunes Dagon. This destruction could have taken place
a. At the beginning of the Alma vs. Mehr conflict.
b. During the conflict.
c. After the conflict, perhaps a finishing blow.
Whichever one is most lore-friendly.

In any case Almalexia herself decided a Temple must be built at the ruined site; the Daedric Ruin looks the way it does because of the victory of Seraynis. Now 'officially' Almalexia wanted the Temple built as yet another shrine to the Tribunal. But the real idea was for the people to honor her victory over Mehrunes Dagon, as both a mockery to the Deadric Prince and an honoring of the goddess' majesty.

So the way Almalexia saw it, Ald Seraynis is basically a symbol of her greatness and her dominance over Mehrunes Dagon. For the Dunmer themselves it is a symbol of dominance over evil in general, showing how the Tribune will protect the Dunmer from the old gods, and will destroy them when needed. Now Almalexia's will ought to take precedence over the Temple maybe wanting not to have a stronghold in a Daedric Ruin.

Plus, tradition justifies a lot of things, especially for a mostly conservative race such as the Dunmer. I think the Almalexia vs. Mehrunes conflict likely took place ages ago, and so Ald Seraynis' location could be justified simply for 'always having been that way.'

Tradition and symbolism, I think those would be 2 plausible and lore-friendly arguments justifying an Ordinator base built in and around a Daedric Ruin?

Of course, all of the above doesn't count for sh*t if it looks ugly.

[Haplo]

It was said that Map3 would probably get a few more settlements, so this is the one I'm proposing.

I don't know who said this, but they were wrong. There are so many settlements on Map 3 we are cutting some off and moving them to Map 4 so that the number of towns in this one area won't be too overbearing.

The Daedric Ruin in question is a great one, and will be a great place for Daedric Cults to exist in and habitate.

[Hemitheon]

Ordinators already have a center of operations but if anything that ruin could be used in a quest. So far Map3 has: a coven of vampires (not a new one), a psychotic serial killer who kidnaps people in Almalexia and experiments on them, a couple Dreamers, Daedra worshippers. We could use all of these and incorporate them into the minor Ordinator quests.

[Gnomey]

The problem is that if I were Almalexia, I'd completely level my rival's shrine, not letting a single part remain, except one small piece. Maybe the head from the statue. I'd then incorporate that in some demeaning way, for example erecting a statue of myself with my foot crushing the head, and complete the scene with a nice commemorative shrine to myself. That way, my rival is demeaned, his shrine is gone and forgotten, and I have a new fortress.

The way your suggesting it, the shrine is still there, and stands there for eternity. That's a no-no, whatever symbolic nicety might be behind it. You don't let a rival's temple stand. Not unless you're into historical conservation or something like that, which Almalexia clearly isn't.

I was replying to IP's post, by the way. I can be slow, sometimes.

[immortal_pigs]

@ Haplo

Well they said something about how Map2 got extra settlements during the detailing phase, and that probably the same would happen with Map3. And so I assumed Ald Seraynis could be one of those.

I know there are a lot of settlements in Map3, though Map3 is considerably huge. The swamps however have only one settlement being Darnim Watch, which lies far north-west from that Daedric Ruin completely on the other side of the swamp. So I think it's fair to say there is enough room in the swamp.

But while making up this settlement I am assuming that
1. There will be modders wanting to make the exterior and interior.
2. That it won't be too much work to create it.
3. That it would have more of a positive impact on the player then if but only the Daedric Ruin were to be there.

While I can't judge over 3, if either 1 or 2 are faulty assumptions then I might as well cease pursuing this idea right away. But I don't know yet.

@ Gnomey

Then I was definetely giving the wrong idea; the inside of the Daedric Ruin would of course be completely remodeled to fit Indoril and Temple tastes.

And I like the idea of demeaning her foe with a head of Mehrunes Dagon beneath her feet. There could even be a 'hall of superiority' within the ruin, where all sorts of blasphemous foes are displayed in ridiculous positions and demeaning ways. That could be a lot of fun for an interior modder to make.

So to be clear, the inside would have hardly any resemblance to a Daedric Shrine, save for perhaps the walls.
The outside however, would be that of the Daedric Ruin currently situated there, possibly along with some Indoril buildings around/in/above it. So I guess the shrine is still there, but only on the outside.

[Gnomey]

Yes, and I'm saying that it shouldn't be there at all. While putting an enemy's structure to good use is a good idea for saving work, I think its much more insulting if you tear down his structure and build a new one over it, as though to say "your pathetic walls don't meet my standards".

[immortal_pigs]

Though I concede that tearing down a structure completely could be perceived as an insulting action, it could also be perceived as an action of fear.

Let's say for the sake of it that this Daedric Ruin is basically a sort of home to Mehrunes Dagon, or at least for his followers. Now destroying a home completely is insulting, but it also says you are afraid of the original inhabitants returning. Whilst choosing to let the home 'stand' and using it as your stronghold not only is insulting, it also says you're not afraid of the cultists returning and are confidant enough to leave the home the way it is.

Let me compare this to what the Romans did to Carthage; after the 3d Punic War the Romans burnt down Carthage completely and ground the land with salt making it an uninhabitable desert. This could be seen as insulting, but also showed the fear of Carthage ever returning to power again. The alternative would have been to enslave the populace, demean the leaders and enforce extremely high taxes which would be far more insulting to the Punic race while also showing the clear dominance of the Romans over Carthage.

And lastly one more example
Let's say you hate your neighbour. You can either burn down his house and build a new one on it's foundations, or kick out the neighbour and live in the house yourself. I think the latter is more painful to live with longterm. In a way it even displays a form of arrogance, saying you are the only one deservant to live in the house and that your foe has no way of ever getting it back, simply because you are better then him. Now I would call that insulting!

[Gez]

Hey, ImPig, have you ever been to the ancestral home of House Sotha? You know, the now-defunct House of Almalexia's close friend, Sotha Sil? It's called Ald Sotha, and it's not far from where Vivec built his own city.

Razed to the ground, destroyed until nothing remained, and then Dagon's worshippers built a Daedric-style shrine at the place. Why would Almalexia treat Dagon's real estate any better?

Almalexia isn't Vivec, she's not really into mindgames. AYEM SMASH! is more her kind of subtlety.

Also, Indoril isn't a tileset that is easy to mix with others. It would look quite ugly with Daedric. And really, Ordinator HQ in Daedric ruins just break my lore-bone.

[TennysonXII]

I hate to just jump in and say this, but I'm not crazy about a Daedric ruin being the Indoril stronghold. I may be biased though, because I pretty much hate all smuggler/daedra/Sixth House camps.

This is a bit off-topic, but I imagine an Indoril Stronghold being more like a war fortress. Nerevar was a war hero, and the House is his namesake, so I think it fits. But then, I don't know what decisions have been made about Indoril architecture.

[Gez]

But then, I don't know what decisions have been made about Indoril architecture.

Mournhold architecture is Indoril architecture as far as we're concerned.

[immortal_pigs]

Hey, ImPig, have you ever been to the ancestral home of House Sotha? You know, the now-defunct House of Almalexia's close friend, Sotha Sil? It's called Ald Sotha, and it's not far from where Vivec built his own city.
Razed to the ground, destroyed until nothing remained, and then Dagon's worshippers built a Daedric-style shrine at the place. Why would Almalexia treat Dagon's real estate any better?

I think this kind of ignores the 2 arguments are brought forward before, being a.Tradition and b.Symbology, plus it ignores the 'insult'-factor. But I just thought of something else; it is implied in Tribunal that Almalexia is sort of a goddess that is full of her own greatness and believes herself to be all-important. While this character trait is shown most dominantly along the end of Tribunal, I think it's fair to assume she always possessed a certain feeling of arrogance. So, then why would she care what Dagon does to her 'closest friend'? Almalexia cares primarily about her own greatness, and I made up a few reasons as to why Ald Seraynis would help her fill this need.

Almalexia isn't Vivec, she's not really into mindgames. AYEM SMASH! is more her kind of subtlety.

That is assuming that gods will always be consistent stereotypes, say: Vivec the subtle poet, Almalexia the brute warrioress, Sotha Sil the secluded genius wizard. But I think even gods can be subject to variations in their actions, plus a warrior need not always be brutal in the generic sense of the world. The act of pillaging a Daedric Shrine and occupying it for yourself while ridiculing the former owner can be seen as a brutal act as well.

Also, look at the way Almalexia acts in the Tribunal MQ; she is a lot more subtle then 'AYEM SMASH', indicating that she is more than just a stereotype of the aggressive warrior god.

Also, Indoril isn't a tileset that is easy to mix with others. It would look quite ugly with Daedric. And really, Ordinator HQ in Daedric ruins just break my lore-bone.

Well like I said, if the exterior itself would be ugly than we should be thinking of an alternative location, assuming the idea isn't alltogether useless. But so far you're the only exterior modder saying it won't look good, so I can't say for sure yet.

And well I can probably keep spinning things to make Ald Seraynis fit lore, but in the end I won't be able to justify its existance to everyone since I can't change anyone's lore 'feel' with logic.

Then again the only reason I'm defending the idea of an Ordinator's HQ in a Daedric Ruin is because
a. I want to do large-scale Witchhunting with a satisfying base of operations.
b. I think it's a unique idea not done yet before.
c. It lies close to the swamps, and I'm assuming there'd be lots of blasphemers in the swamps.
d. NO ALTERNATIVE HAS BEEN PROPOSED YET


@ Tennyson:
It won't be the Indoril Stronghold, that'd be insane. If implemented, it would be the HQ of the Order of War, a part of the Ordinators.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

d. NO ALTERNATIVE HAS BEEN PROPOSED YET

I propose we don't do this and settle for the ordinator HQ in almalexia that already exists rather than putting one in a daedric ruin that would have been razed or ignored before it was used.

[Gez]

I think this kind of ignores the 2 arguments are brought forward before

Obviously that is because I did not find much overwhelming pertinence in them.

That is assuming that gods will always be consistent stereotypes

An assumption you aren't above using when you think it fits your point.

Then again the only reason I'm defending the idea of an Ordinator's HQ in a Daedric Ruin is because
a. I want to do large-scale Witchhunting with a satisfying base of operations.

It doesn't have to be Daedric for this, to the contrary in my opinion.

b. I think it's a unique idea not done yet before.

This alone is no reason to do it.

c. It lies close to the swamps, and I'm assuming there'd be lots of blasphemers in the swamps.

This is rather weak.

d. NO ALTERNATIVE HAS BEEN PROPOSED YET

Really? You made a suggestion -- and I understand you can feel a bit disappointed to see that the consensus seems against it -- so the alternative was to do as we were going to do before you typed this suggestion.

[immortal_pigs]

Well the game of pertinence can be played back and forth so that isn't really fair to be honest.

Maybe I misunderstood you when you said ALMA SMASH. But it sounded like this was your way of proving Almalexia would not do subtle things. A notion I later tried to disprove but which you conveniently ignored.

Which is quite an easy game to play, just pick on the weak spots and ignore everything else, not particularly fair don't you think?

Well the rest of those things were just my personal motivations for the idea, attacking those is the same as trying to logically persuade me not to like my own idea xD.
Those aren't the reasons I'm giving to do it, those are the reasons for myself to want it to happen.

Now IF you actually read the scenario I began with, I'm theorizing that the Swamps are a place for the heretics and cultists to hide in presumed safety from authorities. The idea is that the Temple is in a war of sorts with these cultists sending out Ordinators of War to hunt and kill the heretics. It's like building a fishing village along the sea, or building a mining village near a mine. Their job is to hunt the wicked, and the swamp is [one of] the place[s] where they work.

Now of course, the HQ does not have to be a Daedric Ruin, which is why I'm asking people to propose an alternative location. Otherwise, I have laid down a few arguments which have not been disproved, but simply ignored, to justify an HQ inside a Daedric Ruin.

As I've said before, if you think the idea completely sucks and has no potential in any single way whatsoever, just say so. Or maybe you can try to make the idea fit your idea of lore by proposing an alternative location or any other changes. Fair enough?

[Túrelio]

Unfortunately the Grand Inquisitor is already in the game, in the Ministry of Truth. As for an HQ of any sort, the Ordinators are likely to keep all the heads of Orders and their offices(administration) close to one location and probably in the holiest of places, which on the mainland is going to be Almalexia. This also puts them conveniently close to the mortal head of the Temple and one of the Tribunal. The only reason the Grand Inquisitor is in Vvardenfell is probably to directly combat the Dissident Priests, but he has probably left his offices in capable hands.

Edit: Also, that probably makes him the highest ranking Ordinator in Vvardenfell, depending on where the Head of the Ordinators in Vvardenfell District, which would be Berel Sala, is put in the hierarchy. Personally however, I don't believe the Ordinators have a strict hierarchy of control, the heads of each Order probably just make sure that the Ordinators as a whole take care of the things they are specifically tasked with. So each head would be equal in that sense. But that's getting off-topic.

I don't really mind the back story, it sounds plausible that Almalexia would send the Ordinators or an Indoril army to destroy this Daedric ruin. That part is fine to me. The temple base isn't as much.

My compromise would be that this could be an Ordinator training facility of a sort. When I was working on the Ordinators as a joinable faction, one consideration I had would be the "Ordeal" that Ordinators go on as part of their training. A dangerous place like this would work well for that. Perhaps there can be a small Temple nearby the ruin where Ordinators and monks stay to guide and treat the wounds of younger Ordinators on their Ordeal. I emphasize small, because the Ordinators are neither pumping out hundreds of recruits every month nor are all of them likely to be doing their Ordeal at the same place. This could also be a part of a Temple quest to help out.

As far as Almalexia's personality is concerned, remember that while she is brutal and into her godhood, she is also mother to the Dunmer, and that part of her was probably more prominent during those times than her being into her godhood. She also looked like a Dunmer in those times, unlike she did in more recent times, marking the shift in her personality and sanity.

[immortal_pigs]

My compromise would be that this could be an Ordinator training facility of a sort. When I was working on the Ordinators as a joinable faction, one consideration I had would be the "Ordeal" that Ordinators go on as part of their training. A dangerous place like this would work well for that. Perhaps there can be a small Temple nearby the ruin where Ordinators and monks stay to guide and treat the wounds of younger Ordinators on their Ordeal. I emphasize small, because the Ordinators are neither pumping out hundreds of recruits every month nor are all of them likely to be doing their Ordeal at the same place. This could also be a part of a Temple quest to help out.

I like it.

Then maybe there could be one of those forbidden libraries like the one in Ranyon-ruhn in the Almalexian Ordinator HQ.

In any case it would downscale the whole happening and still get the effect of hunting down the wicked in the name of the Tribune in an organized way. So the training facility would NOT be in a Daedric Ruin obviously, but could be a small-medium sized town surrounded by a wall, though close to the swamplands of Map3.

[Túrelio]

Yea that might work, I was thinking a one building monastery type deal but if its kept to a low number I suppose some more buildings wont be bad, as either living quarters for the resident monks/priests and Ordinators or also as temporary quarters for those on the Ordeal, as long as their quarters are very spartan, I wouldn't even hesitate to put them in shacks or even outside, probably somewhere halfway to the ruins from the monastery.

Also, although those on the Ordeal probably wont be allowed to ask for help directly on their missions, they might could ask for certain things done, or items brought to them. Just remember that they are on an Ordeal, so they are meant to have a tough time.

As far as Almalexia's Ordinator HQ is concerned, yea there would certainly be some "hidden" libraries, although they might not need to be hidden as long as they are far enough inside the Ordinators HQ, far from Temple priests and young Ordinators. Another consideration is that the mainland is going to need a ministry of truth style heretic prison, of course I am not suggesting floating rocks again, but something. When I last looked at Almalexia, I recall some fairly large and thick towers, those would work well(in fact, I might be wrong, but I think I remember one of them being named a prison).

[Haplo]

I haven't read the five pages of stuff posted here, but as I said on IRC:

[22:10:43, December 23, 2008] Haplo: There is not going to be an Ordinator camp in the wilderness of Map 3. End of discussion.

[Chin Music]

I never imagined there would be any wilderness Ordinator camps as such, more like just roving parties or individual Ordinators who have been tasked with squashing nearby heretics, like the witch-hunters who hang around Daedric ruins in the vanilla game.

This is slightly off-topic, but I'm not exactly clear on power and influence in the Indoril regions. We know that the Temple and House Indoril are deeply connected. It always seems like the better the Temple is doing, the better House Indoril is doing, but if anything it seems like the Temple would be the one looking to House Indoril for support, I doubt the Temple literally sustains Indoril (particularly considering House Indoril predates the Temple). I guess my basic thought was just wondering what the Indoril economy is. You hear about how all the other Great Houses stay wealthy and powerful but when it comes to Indoril all you basically hear is that they're just a bunch of incredibly devout conservatives who are somehow the most influential and wealthy Great House despite not a word of the base of their economy (Although from what I know Indoril is in a bit of decline at the time when Morrowind takes place, due to the waning power and influence of the Tribunal, and they took a big blow when the Empire took over). I can understand that the stronger the faith is, the more prosperous the Indoril would be in general, but just being buddy-buddy with the Temple doesn't = money and in fact the reverse is probably true. I suppose they could have a basic agricultural economy but that's a bit boring since the Dres are supposed to be the major farming guys in Morrowind.

Just came about wondering this since I was wondering exactly who keeps who in line in the Indoril district.

[Gez]

Well the rest of those things were just my personal motivations for the idea, attacking those is the same as trying to logically persuade me not to like my own idea xD.

No, attacking those was just to show you why we don't like your idea.

The Ordinator HQs will remain in Almalexia (and to a lesser extent, Vivec) for two reasons:
1. It's already there.
2. Nobody else likes the idea of putting them in a Daedric ruin in a swamp.

[immortal_pigs]

Well since the core has decided the idea has absolutely no potential and cannot be used as an inspiration for anything else, you can take the name Seraynis or Serayn and use it how you like.

@ Chin Music:
Firstly if you really want clarity on the subject, it might be best to open a new topic in L&Q.

Well as far as I know the Indoril are still the greatest House of all Morrowind, though Hlaalu is probably second by now. I think part of the Indoril superiority comes from having Almalexia the city as their capital, they also have a huge population considering Almalexia and all the other cities they possess.

I think it safe to say the sustaining sort of happens the other way around, seeing as the Indoril have a huge populace to offer the Temple as devout believers. 'Incredibly devout conservatives' would be a generalisation since not all Indorils will adhere to the stereotype.

Now I'd say food wise they just import from their buddies the Dres, though they also have some farming lands themself. There are also some Indoril cities on Map6 as well so those could be farming based.
Their economic stability comes from their huge populace; lots of tax-money, lots of traders, lots of worksmen, etc...
All these create the money and I think you can summarize it with the following formula:
Indoril Power = Huge Populace.
Temple Power = Huge devout Populace.
That's why the Temple likes the Indoril.


I think it's safe to say this can be archived now.

[Túrelio]

I have no idea if population wise Indoril is going to beat out Hlaalu, but power-wise they do not. Yes the decline of the Tribunal hasn't helped, but Indoril lost most of its power when Vivec agreed to the Armistice and most of Indoril's influential members committed suicide, and the resulting take over of Indoril lands and councils by Hlaalu. Additionally not having a stake in Vvardenfell, probably either because they were not in a position to or because they were still honoring the long held Temple ban, is not doing them good either.

As for economy, and state that holds the capital to a nation is going to do well, simply because so much administration and power exchanges hands right there. Indoril also held control over many councils before the Armistice, which would also increase its power. Essentially Indoril is a control freak, and they used that to their advantage obviously. Now I suspect that having the capital and then your typical resources(since they will all have some form of food production or mining) is the only thing that is keeping them afloat right now.

They also might still possess some military power still, which is also what makes them dangerous the Helseth, because they can simply cut him off from the outside world in the event of a civil war.

Feel free to move this to a separate thread if needed.

[immortal_pigs]

I have no idea if population wise Indoril is going to beat out Hlaalu, but power-wise they do not. Yes the decline of the Tribunal hasn't helped, but Indoril lost most of its power when Vivec agreed to the Armistice and most of Indoril's influential members committed suicide, and the resulting take over of Indoril lands and councils by Hlaalu. Additionally not having a stake in Vvardenfell, probably either because they were not in a position to or because they were still honoring the long held Temple ban, is not doing them good either.

I'd say they beat them population wise because they have Almalexia, Gah Ruhn, Rouaf Duhr, Akamora, Sailen Vulgate and a bunch of other large towns plus some more in Map6. The first 4 are either huge or large. I'd say the Indoril have maybe 30% more people then the Hlaalu, though it might as well be about equal.

I don't know about any land being taken over by the Hlaalu; I figured the Indoril and Hlaalu had always been divided by the River Thirr. The Indoril didn't really lose all that much power if you think about it. Yes, the high-nobility committed mass-suicide, but their siblings and heirs did not. It might have taken a couple decades, but the Indoril definetely came back. I'd say that currently they are either slightly more powerful then the Hlaalu, equally powerful, or slightly weaker. But a House War would likely end in a Pyrrhic victory for the winner, unless the Empire were to play along.

If you take a look at the Indoril in Map3, it's fair to say they have more than an excess of natural resources so they are economic equals to the Hlaalu in this aspect.

Also, the way TR has implemented it, only 5-6 Council members and Grand Ascendant committed suicide, which is evident by the suicidal daggers found in the Manor of the current Grand Ascendant. The death of the top of the top of the top would be easily fixed by shoving the follow-up into a position of power.

As for economy, a state that holds the capital to a nation is going to do well, simply because so much administration and power exchanges hands right there. Indoril also held control over many councils before the Armistice, which would also increase its power. Essentially Indoril is a control freak, and they used that to their advantage obviously. Now I suspect that having the capital and then your typical resources(since they will all have some form of food production or mining) is the only thing that is keeping them afloat right now.

I disagree. Though having the capital and typical resources do play a part in their position of power, I'd still say most of their power comes from their huge populace.

The way I see it, Huge Populace + 'Able' Populace = Power. By 'able' I mean having a form of education, basic intelligence and having a livable living standard. Look at America, Russia, India and China; they all have a large population and have an 'able' populace. Of course having a large population is only helpful if the people can actually buy stuff and are smart enough to work, which is the case for the Indoril. Also having a large population generally mean having a large army, a large working populace, etc... All of those factors bring economic and political power. Simply because the population is so large, they have to be reckoned with.


So yeah, they might just about beat the Hlaalu, might be equal, or might be slightly weaker then the Hlaalu.