This is what Necrom looks like

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Post by Nalin »

Some special holy tall bonelords sound very necrom to me. More apt than ordinators.
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Post by Sload »

We're not fucking making a new undead model to patrol necrom. The Ordinators in Mourning are the coolest idea TR has ever had.
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Post by greendogo »

Sload wrote:We're not fucking making a new undead model to patrol necrom. The Ordinators in Mourning are the coolest idea TR has ever had.
I got that.

Whatever happened to the tower/temple thing? What does it look like now?
Edit: Apparently, was it Darknut working on that? He's posted a message about his return to modding here:
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=869231&pid=12672636&st=0&#entry12672636
and the Necrom temple is first on his list... So disregard my question.
Last edited by greendogo on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gentlemen, start your striders:
[url]http://tristikov.deviantart.com/art/G-Dunmer-wit-Siltstridaz-dawg-28071455[/url]
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

because the discussion on bonelords and walkers was closed until you brought it up again.
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Post by Aiwyn the Breton »

Ok, I don't know much about this city, but just gathering impression reading the previous post...

"Ancestors and the Dunmer" says "Necrom resembles a giant necropolis", but at least in Vvardenfell, necropolis are the ancestral burial, so...

I imagine a place like this: a kind of white vivec/molag bal standing on ground instead of water (i like the Ziggurat-like desing) but without flags and with a more "gothic" definition (suqares and triangles instead of round shapes, maybe, or some sharp pinnacle replacing/over the flying buttress).

A circular or square park all around (a maze, maybe) with some ash circle everywhere (the ones you can find in temples and ancestral tombs), biue/greenish lights (as in the ancestral burial) and Hig Ordinators (because of the violet-ish armor) with disfigured masks (something like tribal markings reminding tears or flesh decay, maybe, as the female Saint masks in Saint Seiya, nothing too complex*) patroling around.

*=No new model, no new texture but for the helm :P

The "works" should be form, bottom to top, hosting different classes (varius nobles/priests on the "canalworks", dukes and dukesses/high priests in the "waistwork" and saint/king/queens in the "upper waistwork" or in the "plaza"). I dunno if make a dunmer temple in the topmost area would be right, ancestor worship is not temple-related in Morrowind (at least, in Vvardenfell...)

If the the city is hosting services, there should be outside, maybe in a kind of "curtain wall" that leads to the grounds, inside only questgivers, pilgrims and priests... A big wall in Mournold's style, maybe, but black and with pharaonic gates (ancient city door like) wich hosts services to the pilgrims, with a high tower each side of the gate as high as the central one.

Too late for discussion? Are you already working on it? :)
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Post by Chin Music »

As far as I'm aware, Necrom is well underway, with the general layout of the city already being completed.

You can view its progress here:
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=17473&start=280

Thread necromancy is frowned upon.
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Post by Nemon »

Chin Music wrote: Thread necromancy is frowned upon.
Necrom <-----> Necromancy...!? If ever there was a reason for thread necromancy, it was now :).
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

Here's some of my loose change:

- I really like the idea of using more ghostfence-style magical phenomena, especially the shafts of light coming from various important towers.

- A great mood could be set up by making all fire in the city blue (magical) instead of orange.

- Something like India's Chand Baori well:
[img]http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2810/17ranthambore2426chandbdw2.jpg[/img]

...but with each story lined with entrances to the catacombs. Instead of a well at the bottom, there could be a large monument of some sort; perhaps a three-sided pillar rising all the way out of the pit with important prayers engraved on each of the sides. In addition to looking fucking awesome, the pit would aesthetically reinforce that the important things in Necrom are below the ground, not above it. Unless the city is in a seperate worldspace though, this would have to be an interior, most likely that of the main temple, given its sheer size.
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Post by Gez »

No, this wouldn't look fucking awesome. This would look fucking horrible. It's completely out of scale with Morrowind, it'd look like an amateurish copypasta attempt at making something epic by making it uber.

The monument is interesting in the real world, but in the game it just wouldn't work.
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

Sorry; I was just throwing some ideas out there. It's been so long, I've forgotten just how seriously TR takes itself. :P

And to clarify, of course I'm not suggesting a straight ripoff of the source pic; I just like the idea of a not-too-large fancily-walled pit (to put it simply), because of the aforementioned building down instead of up aesthetic; plus as a catacombs entrance it would make sense to dig down another story so the thousands of people who visit the city each year don't have to fumble through miles of older tunnels to get to the new ones. Then again, maybe fumbling through miles of older tunnels is exactly the kind of thing they'd want to do, for any number of dunmer-y reasons.

On another note, about what the ordinators should say, I think it might be cool/fitting if they said absolutely nothing, even when the player tries to open up dialogue with them or when they are attacked. An oath of silence to mirror and honor the silence of the dead, or something like that. Then again, it might not be cool/fitting at all. thoughts?
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Post by milne »

since this topic just got ressurected, why not have painted plainstriders with hollowed out shells that carry coffins in them move over the causeway to the temple.


For extra effect they could be escorted by the Ordinators in mourning or some priests.
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

milne wrote:since this topic just got ressurected, why not have painted plainstriders with hollowed out shells that carry coffins in them move over the causeway to the temple.


For extra effect they could be escorted by the Ordinators in mourning or some priests.
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Post by Gnomey »

Where would the plainstriders come from, and where would they go? (I'm talking technically. As it is, it sounds as though they'll appear out of nowhere near Necrom, even if the player doesn't see them actually appear, walk up to the city gates and then? Or pershaps they will continue to the mortuaries, but what will happen then? Will they just disappear? (And the player would definitely be able to see them disappear, if he follows them).)

As for the pit, I'd suggest that any suggested improvements are either aesthetic, like tapestries, or related to the interior. The exterior is already well underway and, for example, plonking a pit in the city now would just waste a whole lot of time. :wink:
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Post by milne »

maybe they could work in a cycle. They could walk into the city from a certainn point, all the way to the mortuaries where it would stay still for a while (maybe an ingame hour) the it ould make its way back to that certain point it came from and wait there for some time before it restarts its journey again...
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Post by Adanorcil »

Folks: It's not as if the striders in Morrowind moved. Jeez.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Jeez, Adanorcil, check TR_Data.

On the actual subject, though, I don't think this would work. Travel AI is rubbish, and there haven't been 'strider pens' or anything planned for in the exterior. It would just be awkward, and look like a rubbishy after-thought.

So while an alright idea for a painting, piece of concept art, or story; it is pretty unfeasible in-game.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

I don't like the idea, but adanorcil was merely stating that they didn't have to move, it is actually better for the reasons stated that they wouldn't move. Striders aren't controlled unless they are lobotomized, nor do they have any carrying capacity. If they were to be able to cross the bridge they would have to be the static striders from the vanilla game, if that made any sense.
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Post by Hemitheon »

how bout whitewashed barges for the docks? with either colored sails (colored the Dunmer death color) or with religious symbols/banners.
Last edited by Hemitheon on Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Yeah, Thrig, that last made no sense, but I see that I may have got the inflection of Adanorcil's post wrong.

Sorry Ada.

@ Hem, that also doesn't make too much sense. Where would those barges be going to? Travel to Necrom is mostly one-way. :P

It's not like (or is it?) people are gonna hire a barge from Necrom just so they can put a body on it and sail it back up to Necrom. They'd just use their normal boats, perhaps prettified up a bit.

EDIT: Caught your edit, so yeah, that's the kinda stuff that would be good.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Only lobotomized silt striders would be used to cross the bridge because only they could be controlled to do so and carry cargo. However they never move on screen and never need to. Using the vanilla silt striders would allow for the corpse transport to be present in the only logical way, while not requiring anything more than a single strider base. (we assume the striders would return to their base outside of necrom upon dropping off the corpses) All this would require for implementation is extra tall arches on the path to the temple, a strider dock at the temple, and a strider dock outside the city.

But like I said, I don't like this idea. (although I could be convinced possibly if it were fleshed out well and done right)

BC: the barges would be there and empty after dropping off a load of corpses.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Ah, okay, I get. Still don't like it, as with you, tho'. :P

Re: barges, yeah, I got the idea, but if you think about it it makes no sense, as these are just your normal village boats that have been sailed up to Necrom to drop off a body. You're not going to spend good cash white washing a boat for one trip. (And then de-whitewashing it afterwards)

Fancy sails and banners I totally go for, tho'.
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Post by Hemitheon »

Special carts? Like the ones from Mournhold but with religious stuff on them for carting bodies to the necropolis.
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Post by milne »

When I said "striders" I was meening the smaller plain striders that were labotomized and had a coffin in its shell. how its operated could be explained by having them guided around by the ordinators/priests. to get them to fit in with the Necrom feel they would probably have to be painted white or somethng, to make them look a bit more holy.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

I think this is the best reason for not doing it:
Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote: Travel AI is rubbish
It takes quite a lot of effort to make AITravel commands not look shit and I suspect that effort could be better spent elsewhere.

Edit: Sorry if that seems overly negative. I don't meant to shoot down an idea unnecessarily, I'm just pointing out that making things walk around is annoying.
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Post by Gez »

I'm gonna agree with the consensus that scripting plain striders to move up and down the causeway would be ultimately pointless and wouldn't even look that good in-game.

Morrowind is very static, keep that in mind. If you animate stuff too much, it sticks out badly. The aim is to make TR as if it were an official expansion, not to deviate wildly from the original in look and feel.
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Post by milne »

well, they could be standing around the mortuaries and such. They could make an interesting quest where you would have to find a lost one in the wilderness which would have been killed and robbed by those disrespectful foreigners...


another idea of mine is memorials everywhere. To simple farmers, to warriors who died in battle, to an honourable slave who saved his master?


How do the dunmer feel about animals? Would a herder buried with his favourite guar be out of the question?


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Post by Hemitheon »

"How do the dunmer feel about animals? Would a herder buried with his favourite guar be out of the question? "

Im gonna guess that that would be highly sacrilegious.
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Post by Haplo »

Hemitheon wrote:"How do the dunmer feel about animals? Would a herder buried with his favourite guar be out of the question? "

Im gonna guess that that would be highly sacrilegious.
I would venture a guess that Hemitheon's guess is pretty accurate.
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Post by milne »

thats fine I was just wandering...


Another thing though, do the dunmer get cremated? Because after running through the ancestral tombs all you really see are a lot of jars and ashy piles...


how about a special cremating service in the necrom temple
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Post by Andres Indoril »

I made the silly mistake of making it appear as though as there was some cremating action going down in one of the mortuaries though. So there is some of that stuff already done for Necrom... :P
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Post by Hemitheon »

Hmm. It never hit me that they were cremated. I always figured they left them out until the turned to ash naturally. But it makes sense. The two mortuaries are in keeping with that idea. The exterior of the mortuaries will need ovens then, because the interiors no longer have them.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

Maybe it is an idea to include a building for the Ordinators of War in Necrom? These would be the guys that go out raiding Daedric Ruins and slaying heretics and cultists in the name of the Tribunal.
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Post by Gez »

War Ordinators are located in Almalexia-Mournhold. Necrom is the city of the dead, not the proving ground of the exterminators.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

I did not mean a headquarters, I meant more of a barracks. Just like the Imperial Legion has a barracks at Gnisis, the Ordinators of War could have a barracks at Necrom, since Necrom is a holy city of the Temple.

I think the Ordinators of War should have more than just one base in Almalexia, since it'd be strange to have Ordinators travel for miles just to extreminate a Daedric Base in for example the Boethian Mountains. It would be kind of like making Old Ebonheart the only base for the Legionnairs in all of Mainland Morrowind.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Not quite.

Necrom is unique, in that it is not just 'a Temple city'. It is something entirely different. It is there solely (as far as I'm aware) as a site of burial and focus point of Dunmer ancestory-stuff.

A military garrison would seem out of place, I feel.
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Post by Chin Music »

This talk of Dunmer funeral customs is interesting. I had never actually connected the fact that they are probably cremated until it was mentioned above. It seems to make sense given all their tombs are filled with urns full of ash. Could be cool to add some cremation ovens to the mortuaries, or a stockpile of urns.

To my knowledge though, Necrom is considered to be the sacred of resting places and most Dunmer aspire to be buried/whatever there. Given this, I'm assuming Necrom has extensive catacombs for the dead. Although, I was initially under the assumption that Necrom was essentially a giant necropolis and that most of the city was given over to the dead with only minor residential/commercial services.

While I know most decisions regarding Necrom are already final, how exactly is that being handled? I'm not sure exactly how much I'm going to say is correct, but I believe that the catacombs should be accessible from within Necrom itself (probably around the base of the Temple wall) and go deep under Necrom itself with older urns at the top and the newest at the bottom.

Considering it's within a holy city anyway, I don't think the catacombs should be overly maze-like or twisting like ordinary tombs, made with the Necrom interior set and should be guarded by the ordinary Necrom guards rather than ancestor undead, as this would allow the player to explore them (I imagine you'd have to be pretty damn important to de designated to defend the Necrom catacombs in death. Hell, if you get in there you're probably just happy you got buried in Necrom). Maybe the player would require special permission to enter them.

Would it be worth it to create a few cemetaries or even crypts for the Imperial side of things?

Anyway, this is just me running my mouth off as usual.
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Post by Hemitheon »

Contrarily, I think the catacombs need to show their age, namely over 3 thousand years old. Three thousand years of history: the catacombs should go from modern day tombs to pre-velothi caves with mummies. Likewise, it would be super cool is the catacombs in a sense spread out like roots from the temple itself. These people are the foundation of modern Morrowind.
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Post by Chin Music »

I would have assumed the oldest remains to be at the top since that would be the most obvious thing to do, and the catacombs would have gradually been deepened and extended as the need for more room arose.

Also I was wondering if it would be worth keeping stationary notes by certain urns as epitaphs or just information on the life of the Dunmer resting there.
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Post by Gnomey »

Actually, there was already a lengthy discussion about the Necrom catacombs. I'm not sure whether the final decision was actually the official one, but at the end of the discussion this was pretty much the picture:

1. The entrance would be in or near the temple, probably in the temple grounds, with one or more entrances.

2. As it goes further down, the catacombs become newer. At the top you'd see a lot of Velothi (I don't think any natural caves would be kept. Perhaps in dead ends, or other out-of-the-way places) while further down the Necrom tileset would dominate.

2. a. The wording suggests that the catacombs take on the appearance of a subterranean pyramid: if the newer sections are further down, and the population (and thus amount of dead people) increases, the top, older layers wouldn't hold that many corpses while the newer layers would have to be more extensive.

2. b. "Layered" might not have been meant literally, though, in which case the older sections would be at the surface near the entrance while the newer sections would expand outwards in all directions, not just down. So in this model it might look roughly like the lower half of a sphere. Roughly.

3. The different Houses might have different burial styles. An example from the thread was that the Telvanni burials could display the achievements etc. of the dead. I'm not sure whether the Houses were buried separately or whether they were mixed together, or whether that was discussed at all.

I think those are the most important points.
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Post by Gez »

Chin Music wrote:I would have assumed the oldest remains to be at the top since that would be the most obvious thing to do, and the catacombs would have gradually been deepened and extended as the need for more room arose.
Yes, but on the other hand the top is the most likely to be visited and thus renovated. Recent prestigious dead would be here, until they're displaced to a deeper level. In a way, it would go like this:

Recent
Old
Ancient
Old
Recent

The top levels are originally very old but were renovated and are better maintained. The lowest levels are recently done, and might still be not totally finished (hence, still cave). The oldest untouched levels are in the middle, too far to be actively maintained but too close to still have room for enlargement.
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