This is what Necrom looks like

[Chin Music]

I don't know if the Dunmer would be inclined to move their dead around all the time like that. Tombs don't exactly seem like the kind of place to be "renovated" regularly. A heirarchy of importance would also fill out naturally as I imagine the first to be laid to rest in Necrom were likely the most important.

Certainly in terms of general maintenance such as cleanliness, the upper levels would be better maintained (especially if they were honouring prominent figures), but "displacing" the actual remains and artefacts elsewhere after they have been set just doesn't quite feel right to me.

Necrom is an ancient, sacred city, I don't think there's any need to use the existing Velothi tileset to indicate age, I imagine Necrom has looked the way it does for nearly as long as it's been standing. I mean, look at the Necrom temple. Has it only been built recently, or has it stood for hundreds of years? Why would the catacombs suddenly change to the ordinary dingy brown tileset? It would feel strange going into them from this splendorous white city. Age could be indicated in other ways such as faded parchments, different styles of urn, dirt, cobwebs and clever use of lighting.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Tombs don't exactly seem like the kind of place to be "renovated" regularly.

I don't know, I can imagine it:

"Oooh, tsk, this is bad. Proper cowboys the last bunch of lads who did this. We're going to have to pull all this out. You see those ancient burial mounds over there? No wear on them, no wear at all. Get a few adventurers down here and it's all just going to fall apart. No, I'm afraid it's all going to have to be re-fit. Whole new tileset. Could be expensive. Now, did you say it was ancestral ghosts or bonewalkers you wanted, because them bonewalkers go right terrible with the class A sprockets. Going to need all new support beams too. Ooh, it's a big job alright."

[Gez]

but "displacing" the actual remains and artefacts elsewhere after they have been set just doesn't quite feel right to me.

It's done in the real world since time immemorial.
"Great Emperor Verypompous the Fourty-Twelth just kicked the bucket! Oh noes! Let's put his coffin in the Crypt of Honour. Oh wait, there's no room anymore... Well, nobody still cares about his Verypompous the Twenty-Eleventh, so let's just put the ancestor in the Adjacent Crypt to free his slot."

As for renovation, I'm going to guess none of you but me lives (sometimes) in a house with a white-washed interior.

[milne]

Necrom is older than the Tribunal right?


would a hidden Daedric Shrine be totally unreasonable if it was buried far beneath the city?

[Chin Music]

As for renovation, I'm going to guess none of you but me lives (sometimes) in a house with a white-washed interior.

Aren't the Necrom walls white stone?

In any case, I don't think the standard Velothi set should be used. As related as they are, they're different enough it would feel strange passing between them, and the Necrom tileset is so very nice.

would a hidden Daedric Shrine be totally unreasonable if it was buried far beneath the city?

Yes. The Dunmer's worship of the Daedra was and is very different to that of the modern Daedric cults. The Velothi style is a remnant of that era of Dunmer daedra-worship, so that is why Necrom would use only Necrom/Velothi. The Necrom Temple effectively is their "Daedric Shrine", long since converted for worship of the Tribunal.

At most, you would find reference to the worship of the good Daedra (or at least a distinct abscense of Tribunal worship) in some of the very oldest relics of Necrom.

[milne]

aren't the modern cults of Morrowind based in the ruins of the older dunmer-built daedric shrines???


It doesnt really matter though, I just thought it could be a good secret to hide uder Necrom

[Hemitheon]

So does this mean Parisian style catacombs are out of the question?

[Gez]

So does this mean Parisian style catacombs are out of the question?

Stuff like that?
[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Catacombes_de_Paris.JPG][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Catacombes_de_Paris.JPG/500px-Catacombes_de_Paris.JPG[/img][/url]

I'm gonna say the same thing as for Chand Baori: far too uber in Morrowind's scale. (By the way, notice what the plaque says: these bones were taken from the Magdeleine Cemetary and put in the West Ossuary, then moved here in the Catacombs. What were people saying about not displacing remains, again?)

[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/DJJ_1_Catacombes_de_Paris.jpg][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/DJJ_1_Catacombes_de_Paris.jpg/500px-DJJ_1_Catacombes_de_Paris.jpg[/img][/url]

When you see a wall like this one, there are three thoughts that come to mind:
1. OMGITSAWESOME!
2. Those bone walls go on forever; how many people are there?
3. Dang, those things always look fake in videogames.

To truly make things like Parisian catacombs, we'd need an addon to the Necrom tileset because you can't place those bones individually anyway.
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Catacombs-700px.jpg[/img]
I must admit that a room like this would be cool.

[Andres Indoril]

How many claims would the catacombs be? I must say I would like a part of that sweet action...
But from all honesty, I am willing to do that in the same way I helped on Kemel-Ze, so I suppose as long as a person who would be willing to share claims the thing, I am satisfied.

[Hemitheon]

I'd say do it like OE Castle: one modder with others helping. That way you have one vision for the catacombs and crypts.

[Theo]

Yes, I would definitely like to have piece of this too. But there should be one supervisor who would provide an overall map of the site, with layers of the tombs and their connections (as Kemel-ze but definitely not so many interiors - perhaps 5-10?) BTW there was an old thread discussing this issue.

[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=7349&highlight=necrom+catacombs[/url]

[blackbird]

Is it possible to make a texture from the pics you have uploaded? Are these images copyrighted?

[Gez]

Is it possible to make a texture from the pics you have uploaded? Are these images copyrighted?

They're from Wikipedia, so they're all GFDL or CC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris
Look each individual image for its own copyright information.

[Hemitheon]

what if we textured a blank wall with skulls. Set it into a niche and then place a grille in front of it? That way the player will never get to know that the textured wall is only 2d.

[gro-Dhal]

Would they really keep that many skulls? Big fans of cremation I thought. Which makes sense, because they're paranoid about necromancy and ash is thematically a Morrowind thing.

[Hemitheon]

Ok I take it back. It would make Necrom look too amateur. The catacombs need to be awesome. A gigantic velothi room with urns everywhere with tiered pyramids rising from the floor, covered in even more urns. Eh?

[gro-Dhal]

And a chorus line of dancing urns, yeah

[sirwootalot123]

I just saw something really cool in an old surrealist armenian film (the colour of pomegranates) that got me thinking - during the rennovation of an ancient church, urns were stacked on top of one another in a honeycomb of sorts, then the gaps in-between were filled with cement. In the film the urns were filled with pomegranate juice, the signifigance of which escapes me; however, given how cramped it is in Necrom (without magic there's only so much room to dig down until everything gets flooded or collapses), I think it might both look really cool and make a ton of sense to have urns built into the walls, lids facing outward. I did a quick test in the CS, and I think it looks great in theory:

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/Sirwootalot/Random%20TR/Urns.jpg[/img]

In practice however, it'd be easier on the worldbuilders (and MUCH easier on everyone's computers) to make "row of urns" containers that combine 20-40 urns, removing the "bottoms" that stick into the walls; it also looks a little hokey for them to be coming out the way they do, so a retextured wall behind them would also be a good idea if it's implemented.

[Hemitheon]

That's a possibility. What about a wall piece of two or three niches?

[Gez]

In practice however, it'd be easier on the worldbuilders (and MUCH easier on everyone's computers) to make "row of urns" containers that combine 20-40 urns, removing the "bottoms" that stick into the walls;

As far as computers go, if all urns use the same NiTriShape in the nif file, it shouldn't be harder on the computer than a single wall and a single urn. And it'll take much less space on the disk as well. (I did that for the Ornada and Molecrab egg sacks; before each egg used its own definition even though they were all the same, now they all use the same NiTriShape and filesize was divided by 4.)

[Túrelio]

Are we looking for new models/textures or just new ways to use existing models? Or just whatever we can get/use?

[Thrignar Fraxix]

I'm not entirely sure WHAT we are looking for here. The thread was dead for 4 months until someone bumped it. Then a month later it got bumped by sirwoot and then everyone just ran with it. I think at this point we are trying to figure out what to do with the catacombs using existing models.

[Chin Music]

Rather than start a new thread, I just had a little idea earlier and thought I just might post it here. Doesn't necessarily need to be approved but I just wanted to maybe gauge reactions.

What if Necrom or parts of Necrom used white lights? To my knowledge all common lights are this sort of yellow orange colour, so I was just thinking if we were to create new white lights and use them in Necrom, would it enhance the overall feel?

[Túrelio]

They might, but I am not sure "white" light is perceptible, it just makes everything appear as it would under normal light, without a tint of the color of the light. I suppose it could work since Necrom is overall white anyways. Try it and see what it looks like, and if you don't mind post some screen shots here.

[Chin Music]

Well, here's a Necrom building illuminated by white light versus one illuminated by ordinary, yellow light.
[url]http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9783/neclighthd6.jpg[/url]

There is quite a difference, but my thought was also that the lights themselves could show this off, such as by having lanterns with white paper, or white wax candles.

I had the idea when I was looking around with The Lighting Mod, part of which is that it changes all (or at least most) orange/yellow light in the game into white light, which I found was quite noticeable.

[Hemitheon]

what about braziers with white and blue fire?

[Aiwyn the Breton]

They might, but I am not sure "white" light is perceptible, it just makes everything appear as it would under normal light, without a tint of the color of the light. I suppose it could work since Necrom is overall white anyways. Try it and see what it looks like, and if you don't mind post some screen shots here.

the difference between white lights and yellow lights is the same between sunlight and halogen lamp lights. If used should change the perception of materials, not of lights, so it depends on which effect you are looking for. White lights gives an impression of "artificial", if there's a little more green and blue in it (like R255/253 G255 B255) even ghostly. White lights in render has usually exposure problems (the lihter materials look much lighter, even plain white) but high exposure is not exactly a problem for the morrowind engine .

what about braziers with white and blue fire?

Uhm, this I dunno, it seems a bit unnatural and... well, redundant. Blue fire is given by gas, mostly by hydrocarbons like GPL and methane, if hackle-lo or whickweat or whatevertamrielicflora burning produces green or blue fire it's ok, but to have the effect it's better using some green/blue filtered lantern.

[Gez]

Ghostly is good for Necrom, so a slightly bluish white light wouldn't be a problem.

[blackbird]

Blue and green fires are technically possible, but it's not always easy to create it. Especialy a greenish fire. There is a chemical explanation for this.

[Gnomey]

In Morrowind there doesn't need to be: "Necrom, city of light, city of magic!" To me, whitish lights sound like a very good idea. I always thought that vibrant yellow lights looked a bit odd in the city of the dead...

[Gez]

Blue and green fires are technically possible, but it's not always easy to create it. Especialy a greenish fire. There is a chemical explanation for this.

Hah! TES science sneers at your chemical explanations!

Look, Necrom is the burial city (!) of a culture of people who use the souls of their dead (!!) to create giant forcefields (!!!). The ease of making blue or green fires is entirely irrelevant here.

[Adanorcil]

I just have one problem with that idea. Blue/white fire is done in somewhat


EVERY


place that is supposed to be even remotely creepy. Even the Ayleid ruins in Oblivion had it, gratuitously too.


Apart from the rather blaring tackiness, my point is: Necrom does not strike me as a 'ghostly' place. It is perhaps not a very pleasant place, but it is not 'ghostly'. To the Dunmer, it is the central burial place of their religion and therefore exceptionally sacred. Necrom requires a sort of monumental grandeur that, even though its funerary nature may strike us as a little grotesque, should radiate pride and reverence.

To give a slightly exaggerated example, it would be like lining [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_Cot_Cemetery]Tyne Cot's[/url] 12.000 graves with cobwebs and flickering light bulbs.

[Chin Music]

I wasn't suggesting it to be ghostly, and I don't think white light is particularly spooky. I suggested it because I thought it might enhance the feel of Necrom and make it just that touch more unique, as to my knowledge very white light is not used anywhere else, and it is somewhat appropriate for the already white Necrom.

The interpretation has gotten a bit skewed here, as what is there to suggest that white light could not be considered reverential? Basically, I just thought it might look cool. Is that so wrong?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

There's nothing wrong with white light, as in white lanterns.

But, I agree with Ada that there is a lot wrong with blue/white flames. Which are overdone, and create a certain 'image', which should not be associated with Necrom.

[Aiwyn the Breton]

The interpretation has gotten a bit skewed here, as what is there to suggest that white light could not be considered reverential? Basically, I just thought it might look cool. Is that so wrong?

I was just talking about the perception of that. I like the white light idea, and i just pointed out one more reason to be good, as well as one "bad" reason (white-on-white) which is a non-existent problem because morrowind has no exposure issues (vanilla-non-pixel-shaded, at least...)

As for the blue flames, thanks guys: you just found what I wanted to say if I understood what really disturbed me about blue/green flames before
I hate when I feel something but I don't know what exactly I feel... ^_^'

[Hemitheon]

Now when you're talking about white lighting are you refering to external lighting or interiors? Cuz it's a bit late for interior lighting. Something like 75% of all Necrom interiors are complete.

Another point is that currently, Necrom has braziers all over the place. Braziers that were intended to be filled with furn_coals_hot and fire. Which fire (normal or blue (from BM)) hadn't been decided.



Another point:

As for the interior of the Necrom temple, we will need an inverse of the exterior as was done with TR_ex_v_monastery. The worst thing we can do is make the temple from modular pieces. If anything, look at the monastery of Tel Mothrivra for what Im talking about. We'll need the skeleton itself so that modders can work with that.

[RelinQ]

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/Sirwootalot/Random%20TR/Urns.jpg[/img]
In practice however, it'd be easier on the worldbuilders (and MUCH easier on everyone's computers) to make "row of urns" containers that combine 20-40 urns, removing the "bottoms" that stick into the walls; it also looks a little hokey for them to be coming out the way they do, so a retextured wall behind them would also be a good idea if it's implemented.

Im not sure I like the idea of the same statics, but that idea with the urns is really freakin cool , I like it alot.

Anyway judging from what the pictures Sload put up are, I would be thinking that Necrom Buildings would be very minimal but more important things would be very grand, probably with alot of wierd curves in place, sort of like how japanese style houses have the curvy points on the ends of roofs, but alot more ephasised and odd.

I get the idea buildings would be simplistic but rather unique architectually, probably dull greys, blacks and bone coloured materials for base colours, then alot of earthy like yellows, dark blues, greens, (same group browns, oranges, reds) for like trimming on buildings, doors, window, etc.

I might draft up some sketches but theres not alot of things to actaully go on.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

we aren't talking about the architecture, we are talking about the catacombs. The architecture is done and placed. How do people keep missing this

[Myzel]

I'll help the people who missed it.

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/blog/index.php?/archives/56-Necrom-City-Of-The-Dead-First-Progress-Update.html]This is what Necrom looks like[/url]

[Chin Music]

If some white lighting for the exterior of Necrom has some general approval, maybe someone could forward the idea on to Swiftoak Woodwarrior to see what he thinks?

I don't know man, I just threw it out there, not my call.