q1-73-Mis
Moderator: Lead Developers
Ok. The problem with Abeshnal is that you might not have killed her son so far. Perhaps the quest should be following. Kill the vampire and get to the chest to the cult staff. Then use it to break the mother. 'My son was a horrible cultist and a vampire?', 'It is not that bad...'. THis way it could deal with both the problems. Also what is your opinion on leaving the whole Firewatch plot of mine out (that makes 2 quests) - I might use these ideas it in the Imperial legion instead - there is enough of plotting blackmail and defiling in the questline already. The only difference to your questline would be that haaking was slain in any other way.
THEO
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immortal_pigs
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What I did was I took the questline and cut it in half just before Salms Alen is supposedly caught.
I was opposed to the idea of making such a long questline dependant on the death or survival of Salms Alen. Other then that I attempted to reimplement certain elements in the quest in a different way;
Ratagos gets caught, the Witchhunter gets caught as well, etc...
Are you saying you'll use your Firewatch questline in the Imperial Legion questline? That wouldn't make sense but okay.
I think I'm not really following you here, what changes are you proposing exactly, and what are the reasons?
As for Abeshnal, getting a cult staff wouldn't make sense either, why would the cult have those laying around in the crypt? My version of the Abeshnal quest allows for some basic roleplaying, but the prime motive for the quest is that Abeshnal's mom gets sacrificed in a nasty ritual later on. Also, the quest allows for the player to interact with Girendal Selvilo.
I was opposed to the idea of making such a long questline dependant on the death or survival of Salms Alen. Other then that I attempted to reimplement certain elements in the quest in a different way;
Ratagos gets caught, the Witchhunter gets caught as well, etc...
Are you saying you'll use your Firewatch questline in the Imperial Legion questline? That wouldn't make sense but okay.
I think I'm not really following you here, what changes are you proposing exactly, and what are the reasons?
As for Abeshnal, getting a cult staff wouldn't make sense either, why would the cult have those laying around in the crypt? My version of the Abeshnal quest allows for some basic roleplaying, but the prime motive for the quest is that Abeshnal's mom gets sacrificed in a nasty ritual later on. Also, the quest allows for the player to interact with Girendal Selvilo.
Well to make myself clear. There are two options:
- Player played Habeshi or Draan Solobar quest instead. In this case he is told to go to kill the son, who let himself been turned to vampire, but is still hesitating to join the cult and take the stuff from the chest, before somebody finds out. He is also told they could have use of the mother so you need to persuade her.
- Player played Abeshnal quest. In that case he already killed her son and took codex from his chest and then told mother he will speak with guard. Now he is told the story of the son and is asked to bring his mother instead.
From now on the quest can follow your line, but still I would give a thought on the process how the mother actually would be persuaded.
- Player played Habeshi or Draan Solobar quest instead. In this case he is told to go to kill the son, who let himself been turned to vampire, but is still hesitating to join the cult and take the stuff from the chest, before somebody finds out. He is also told they could have use of the mother so you need to persuade her.
- Player played Abeshnal quest. In that case he already killed her son and took codex from his chest and then told mother he will speak with guard. Now he is told the story of the son and is asked to bring his mother instead.
From now on the quest can follow your line, but still I would give a thought on the process how the mother actually would be persuaded.
THEO
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Chin Music
- Developer
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- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:32 am
- Location: Victoria, Australia
Just finished reading the ENTIRETY of the most recent version of the questline. Here's what I have to say on it:
1. The initial quests seem exceedingly brutal for the average player. And not in the sense of violence, but in that there is very little margin for error and nearly half of all possible choices will result in your death.
Picture yourself as the average player. They don't particularly care about the extended lore-wank that is the Molag Bal cult, and in one of their initial quests they are given the option of:
A - Having some of their stats permanently reduced
B - Death
I imagine what an ordinary person would do in this circumstance is load from an earlier save and then forget about this crazy cult that is so hard to advance in.
Yes, the Molag Bal cult is in fact brutal but I think that for the sake of making a game that is fun certain sacrifices have to be made and that includes making it so that not only are you not "expelled and killed" at the slightest misjudgement or misclick of the mouse but that you also have the opportunity to advance or retry regardless.
The "wrong" dialogue choices could be replaced with a sort of "punishment" for the player rather than instant death, and you would be given to opportunity to retry, or be advanced regardless under the understanding that you "learned your lesson". To contrast, the correct dialogue choices would have rewards.
Also, upon achieving Rank 4, what is with the completely arbitrary and annoying addition of a script which forces you to visit the cult every two weeks or face permanent explusion and death? I can't envision any circumstance in which this could be considered fun.
2. It feels like far too much of the questline hinges on chance and irreversible decisions. The player's ability to successfully cast a spell, or to soultrap a unique creature or to lead a hostile NPC somewhere are things which come up extremely often and will often determine whether or not the player can even advance any further in the faction.
Even if it's just by accident. Like you are frequently given "powerful" scrolls to use on NPCs. What if you miss? "Bad luck, start training your magicka skills?"
When an NPC starts attacking you, your first instinct is to kill it, not to Command it and lead it halfway across the map. And what if you DO kill it? What if your Command spell runs out and you can't cast another one? "Bad luck, game over?". Come on, at least make it possible to finish this questline. The only thought I had was to make the command escorts not hostile at all and occur via dialogue choice implying you used a scroll on them.
But command escorting is a set piece which crops up SO often in this questline if it was simply offered to you every time there goes like half of the challenge of the faction right there. Through the entire thing, it seems like if I wasn't escorting some meatbag I was either:
- collecting reagents from meatbags
- persuading meatbags
Escorting non-hostile NPCs is fine (although nearly always a chore, in ANY game. Having to escort NPCs under a "timer" would stress anyone out). But most people's instincts are going to be to kill an NPC who attacks them, regrdless of what they've been instructed to do (and even then, they may kill them by accident)
Basically, I feel that there is far too much the player can do which will cause them to become hopelessly stuck in the questline, unable to advance because they could not complete an essential task which was pretty unfair to begin with.
3. SO many choices. The amount of internal betrayals and killings and overall choice you have in this questline is a good thing. But it seems like the amount of additional backup dialogue and plans and scripts and everything which would be required to keep the entire faction from imploding in on itself is mind boggling.
Since nearly anything goes, you have to just about account for nearly anything the player can do. You have to account for NPCs who are killed/not being killed and reappearing later because of it, players doing certain things or not doing others. Not even the vanilla Main Quest has this much detail.
Yet despite this, the storyline felt like it was holding my hand the entire way through. There would be so many instructions in dialogue and journal entries required to keep the player on track that it feels like all that choice really amounts to nothing at all because those choices were accounted for beforehand. Yes, you give the option of going completely backwards at certain points, but those instances just feel so scripted because the player has to follow a precise sequence of events to get them to occur.
In other words, the "choices" offered in the faction are clearly presented, and then only lead to other linear questlines, like a road which branches. The player never really has the opportunity to think for themselves and produce delightfully unexpected results. Although maybe this just comes with seeing everything laid bare in document form.
Oh and personally I would not be inclined to do anything too radical in this faction considering the first few quests establish that taking alternate choices will often result in your invariable death.
So, very quickly recapping:
1. I think it is too easy to outright fail certain quests and be permanently locked out of the faction, particularly the early quests.
2. I think that too many of the tasks given are too easy to fail, given that failure results in being unable to advance any further in the faction.
3. I feel that the amount of choices and alternate paths in this questline will require an overly large amount of work to prevent any holes, and despite this will feel linear because of the amount of direction that the player will need to progress.
And a few specific things:
- In the very first series of quests, the option to simply leave Adryn Seloth to die is offered too readily. At this point, the player has absolutely no idea where this questline is going to lead. I can tell you right now that if I inadvertently made a decision which seemed innocuous at the time which excluded me from an enormous joinable faction I had no idea existed I would be pretty pissed. At least let the player know WHAT they are turning down before you give them the option to do so (and if they refuse initially, give them the opportunity to agree later, rather than killing them on the spot).
- Betraying and destroying the cult should result in sick rewards.
- I think in the quest where you are asked to kill TS by Vaden Ulven, the cult accepts TS as his replacement too readily if you discover Vaden's motives and turn on him. But this could be padded out easily.
1. The initial quests seem exceedingly brutal for the average player. And not in the sense of violence, but in that there is very little margin for error and nearly half of all possible choices will result in your death.
Picture yourself as the average player. They don't particularly care about the extended lore-wank that is the Molag Bal cult, and in one of their initial quests they are given the option of:
A - Having some of their stats permanently reduced
B - Death
I imagine what an ordinary person would do in this circumstance is load from an earlier save and then forget about this crazy cult that is so hard to advance in.
Yes, the Molag Bal cult is in fact brutal but I think that for the sake of making a game that is fun certain sacrifices have to be made and that includes making it so that not only are you not "expelled and killed" at the slightest misjudgement or misclick of the mouse but that you also have the opportunity to advance or retry regardless.
The "wrong" dialogue choices could be replaced with a sort of "punishment" for the player rather than instant death, and you would be given to opportunity to retry, or be advanced regardless under the understanding that you "learned your lesson". To contrast, the correct dialogue choices would have rewards.
Also, upon achieving Rank 4, what is with the completely arbitrary and annoying addition of a script which forces you to visit the cult every two weeks or face permanent explusion and death? I can't envision any circumstance in which this could be considered fun.
2. It feels like far too much of the questline hinges on chance and irreversible decisions. The player's ability to successfully cast a spell, or to soultrap a unique creature or to lead a hostile NPC somewhere are things which come up extremely often and will often determine whether or not the player can even advance any further in the faction.
Even if it's just by accident. Like you are frequently given "powerful" scrolls to use on NPCs. What if you miss? "Bad luck, start training your magicka skills?"
When an NPC starts attacking you, your first instinct is to kill it, not to Command it and lead it halfway across the map. And what if you DO kill it? What if your Command spell runs out and you can't cast another one? "Bad luck, game over?". Come on, at least make it possible to finish this questline. The only thought I had was to make the command escorts not hostile at all and occur via dialogue choice implying you used a scroll on them.
But command escorting is a set piece which crops up SO often in this questline if it was simply offered to you every time there goes like half of the challenge of the faction right there. Through the entire thing, it seems like if I wasn't escorting some meatbag I was either:
- collecting reagents from meatbags
- persuading meatbags
Escorting non-hostile NPCs is fine (although nearly always a chore, in ANY game. Having to escort NPCs under a "timer" would stress anyone out). But most people's instincts are going to be to kill an NPC who attacks them, regrdless of what they've been instructed to do (and even then, they may kill them by accident)
Basically, I feel that there is far too much the player can do which will cause them to become hopelessly stuck in the questline, unable to advance because they could not complete an essential task which was pretty unfair to begin with.
3. SO many choices. The amount of internal betrayals and killings and overall choice you have in this questline is a good thing. But it seems like the amount of additional backup dialogue and plans and scripts and everything which would be required to keep the entire faction from imploding in on itself is mind boggling.
Since nearly anything goes, you have to just about account for nearly anything the player can do. You have to account for NPCs who are killed/not being killed and reappearing later because of it, players doing certain things or not doing others. Not even the vanilla Main Quest has this much detail.
Yet despite this, the storyline felt like it was holding my hand the entire way through. There would be so many instructions in dialogue and journal entries required to keep the player on track that it feels like all that choice really amounts to nothing at all because those choices were accounted for beforehand. Yes, you give the option of going completely backwards at certain points, but those instances just feel so scripted because the player has to follow a precise sequence of events to get them to occur.
In other words, the "choices" offered in the faction are clearly presented, and then only lead to other linear questlines, like a road which branches. The player never really has the opportunity to think for themselves and produce delightfully unexpected results. Although maybe this just comes with seeing everything laid bare in document form.
Oh and personally I would not be inclined to do anything too radical in this faction considering the first few quests establish that taking alternate choices will often result in your invariable death.
So, very quickly recapping:
1. I think it is too easy to outright fail certain quests and be permanently locked out of the faction, particularly the early quests.
2. I think that too many of the tasks given are too easy to fail, given that failure results in being unable to advance any further in the faction.
3. I feel that the amount of choices and alternate paths in this questline will require an overly large amount of work to prevent any holes, and despite this will feel linear because of the amount of direction that the player will need to progress.
And a few specific things:
- In the very first series of quests, the option to simply leave Adryn Seloth to die is offered too readily. At this point, the player has absolutely no idea where this questline is going to lead. I can tell you right now that if I inadvertently made a decision which seemed innocuous at the time which excluded me from an enormous joinable faction I had no idea existed I would be pretty pissed. At least let the player know WHAT they are turning down before you give them the option to do so (and if they refuse initially, give them the opportunity to agree later, rather than killing them on the spot).
- Betraying and destroying the cult should result in sick rewards.
- I think in the quest where you are asked to kill TS by Vaden Ulven, the cult accepts TS as his replacement too readily if you discover Vaden's motives and turn on him. But this could be padded out easily.
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Chin Music
- Developer
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- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:32 am
- Location: Victoria, Australia
For some reason I can't edit my posts here and I also wanted to add:
- I think that the quest where you are blinded and instructed to find an NPC should not have you totally blind. You should be able to see enough to know that you aren't just endlessly running against a wall.
- With regards to the slave quests, I say either remove them and the "Initiate" rank and proceed directly to the Apprencice quests, or just have one quest which has you do something utterly degrading after which you are promoted (considering you went to all the work of finding Adryn Seloth just to join), since I imagine that most players would not take too kindly to being a slave for an extended period of time.
- I think that the quest where you are blinded and instructed to find an NPC should not have you totally blind. You should be able to see enough to know that you aren't just endlessly running against a wall.
- With regards to the slave quests, I say either remove them and the "Initiate" rank and proceed directly to the Apprencice quests, or just have one quest which has you do something utterly degrading after which you are promoted (considering you went to all the work of finding Adryn Seloth just to join), since I imagine that most players would not take too kindly to being a slave for an extended period of time.
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
- Developer Emeritus
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Okay, I'll let IP deal with the smaller issues, but I will make one point:
Personally, I don't care if some players are put off by a quest-line being 'mean' (e.g. stat loss, two-week limit etc.) if it means that the people who are actually up for a different experience actually get that experience, rather than a more Oblivion-esque situation of 'you can do anything with no bad consequences'. (And it would be preposterous that the Cult don't care if you join, then head out, do the MQ, complete the MG, finish the Temple, etc. and then return five years later - some limits are necessary, otherwise it just feels silly.)
Otherwise, you do make some fair points, like overuse of commanding. However, I will also say that we're not going to go all Oblivion and provide for or otherwise limit our own questing originality just because some people will kill anything on sight. If it's a case where it's a 'choice with hidden consequences', fair enough, but not in a case where you've been instructed to do something other than kill. In that case, you're probably just being a bit foolish, and there are other quests for you.
Personally, I don't care if some players are put off by a quest-line being 'mean' (e.g. stat loss, two-week limit etc.) if it means that the people who are actually up for a different experience actually get that experience, rather than a more Oblivion-esque situation of 'you can do anything with no bad consequences'. (And it would be preposterous that the Cult don't care if you join, then head out, do the MQ, complete the MG, finish the Temple, etc. and then return five years later - some limits are necessary, otherwise it just feels silly.)
Otherwise, you do make some fair points, like overuse of commanding. However, I will also say that we're not going to go all Oblivion and provide for or otherwise limit our own questing originality just because some people will kill anything on sight. If it's a case where it's a 'choice with hidden consequences', fair enough, but not in a case where you've been instructed to do something other than kill. In that case, you're probably just being a bit foolish, and there are other quests for you.
a man builds a city
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
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Chin Music
- Developer
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- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:32 am
- Location: Victoria, Australia
The other factions don't seem to mind.Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:(And it would be preposterous that the Cult don't care if you join, then head out, do the MQ, complete the MG, finish the Temple, etc. and then return five years later - some limits are necessary, otherwise it just feels silly.)
I would say that getting to join a Daedric cult is a different enough experience already without subjecting your real life person to the ordeals of an actual Daedric cultist. Yeah, offering people lots of dialogue choices and major decisions in faction quests is fun. New and creative ways of completing quests are great. Quickloading for the fifth time because your spell failed or you were killed for picking the "wrong" dialogue choice probably isn't.
Some people might be after that kind of harsh experience, yeah. But then why go to the trouble of creating one of the most elaborate and detailed factions in the game knowing that only a small portion of the players will ever get to see it? The quests are hard enough as it is without capital punishment for minor errors. All I'm suggesting is that you tone down some of the penalties so that you get less people turned-off by the entire ordeal and more people get to enjoy the effort put in. I don't see how this is a bad thing. When all's said and done, how many people are really going to be saying "Man this faction would have been so much better if only they had forced me to come back every two weeks or else get killed for no reason"?
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
- Developer Emeritus
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Like I said, a lot of your other points had validity. I agree with you on overuse of capital punishment. 
It will add to the atmosphere if it feels like the cult isn't just 'another day job', and is actually a dangerously real place, with consequences. And it's only for the first third or whatever. After that (which most players will burn through, anyway), it's 'business as usual', and you get to feel like you're a well respected member of the society.
No one, but then that's a misleading statement. That's like saying, "no one claimed about the lack of bloom in Pong".When all's said and done, how many people are really going to be saying "Man this faction would have been so much better if only they had forced me to come back every two weeks or else get killed for no reason"?
It will add to the atmosphere if it feels like the cult isn't just 'another day job', and is actually a dangerously real place, with consequences. And it's only for the first third or whatever. After that (which most players will burn through, anyway), it's 'business as usual', and you get to feel like you're a well respected member of the society.
a man builds a city
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
-
Bloodthirsty Crustacean
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 3869
- Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:30 pm
- Location: Elsewhere
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theviking
- Developer Emeritus
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- Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands
That is were cheats are for, chin music, and we can hand out spoilers if people really want them. There is a group of fans that will really enjoy this cult just because it is difficult. We have plenty of lesser difficult factions that you can play for the lesser demanding players.
Interiors: 25
Reviews: more then 250!
Quest Reviews: 3
NPC claims: 2
Currently looking for quest designers.
Reviews: more then 250!
Quest Reviews: 3
NPC claims: 2
Currently looking for quest designers.
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immortal_pigs
- Developer
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 2:45 pm
- Location: Utrecht
Let me start by saying, if you have a specific fix, I'll likely be prone to use it. Simply pointing out the errors is a little harder for me to deal with since it means I have to fix everything (or defend it).
Anything I underscore is for me to remember.
1. The initial quests are ment to convey a few aspects of the cult:
- Brutal treatment of low ranking cultists.
- Difficulty in progressing.
- The 'dominance' of higher ranking cultists.
Also, that particular part of the questline was not designed by me, so I sort of 'skimmed' it. I'll fix a few things namely:
- The damaged stats last only 8 ingame hours.
- Blind will be set to a just bearable sight, since I agree TOTAL DARKNESS would be difficult to handel.
Other then that, the extreme penalties stay as far as I'm concerned. These quests are basically a substitute for the slave quests, and the fact is, low ranking cultists get abused and treated harshly, that's not going to change.
Then again, for the mushroom gather quest, I will implement a substitute; drink a nasty potion (bad effect for 12 hours), then return with X amount of mushrooms again.
Fail again, and you are expelled/attacked.
All other harshness is simply part of the beginning.
As for the script of leaving the cult, it will be hinted at that one must not leave the cult for too long. It will be explicitly told by others. Also, it fits in Molag Bal's personal style; he/she wouldn't want lowly servants escaping his grasp. The risk of letting such a servant loose in the real world for too long is simply too great.
============================================
2. Well, when designing this truckload of quests I always kept in mind a quester would have to do all this, so some times I tried to make things easier by limiting the options. When I did add options, I tried to limit those as well. And not that it justifies it, but I believe pretty much all MW-quests could only be completed after succeeding at getting item 'x', or doing action 'y'.
Sometimes I am a fan of multiple ways of completing a quest, but a. This adds extra scripting work, b. I wanted to keep a consistent 'feel' to the cult, c. I'm unable to think of satistfactory alternative quest completions atm.
I agree on you're critique of the challenge of simply moving meatbags around, so if you have a fix, please post it. Otherwise I'll have to go through the entire questline and find exactly what you're referring to, then start thinking of extra pathways.
So yeah, I think I'm gonna summarize the entire questline first to make referencing easier. Just did that now (see bottom).
Now as for the scrolls:
Scroll #1
Draan Solobar activation scroll to summon Hrelvejuul.
- Any other form of activation would do.
Scroll #2
Activation scroll for Viitaeveec.
- Any othe activation form would do.
Scroll #3
Make getting Ratagos easy scroll.
- Neccessary?
Scroll #4
Make getting Suleri Toboryn easy scroll.
- Neccessary? Or see Idea.
Idea: Make ND give you a Daedric "Chant", a sequence of Daedric words, which will substitute the CH-scroll.
Scroll #5
Get Muldyn for Hierophant ritual scroll.
- Quickfix.
Ring #1
Make controlling Witchhunter feasible.
- Most unique of the controlling items, adds for sadistic comic relief via dialogue.
Do you have any fixes?
================================
3. See the summary and you will see I've tried to at least release the load of questing work by slimming down alternatives (there are none in the early quests).
Please be more specific with regards to the accountability. I have tried to make the death of NPCs timely, so they wouldn't appear anyway regardless of being killed before the time they could've appeared. For example Girendal Selvilo stops playing a role after the Enforcer Quests, so if the player kills/killed him, it doesn't matter, you won't see him after he's done his part.
Also, quite simply, killing any NPC while seen = Kicked out of Guild and attacked on sight. We need to be very strict in that aspect in order to prevent having to account with accidental deaths.
Roads with branches are more light on questers, even though more thoughtful options would be awesome, I believe those would be more feasible in smaller questlines, since those simply create to many options. Though I might be misunderstanding you on this point.
The betrayal (backwards as you call them?) lines are specifically offered by Haakig and Suleri Toboryn, yes. I think the Haakig line could be made independent of that, though? Suleri Toboryn will stay the way he is, though. Yeah, I think making the Haakig betrayal optional is definetely a possibility.
Points:
- I agree on your Adryn Seloth begin point, will fix that.
- TS replacing Vaden Ulven was option for the sake of options. Do you have a fix? Otherwise I agree it needs to make more sense.
- Rewards are up to the quester because I can't think of any atm.
- It's starting to seem there will be no slave-line at all.
Lastly, I apologise if I mist something, your post was kind of huge.
============================================
Summary:
Apprentice Quests
1. Give flesh, stats damaged.
2. Get mushrooms, large amount. Fail is punishment.
3. Make slave eat flesh, feed slave to vampire.
4. Get ‘x’ from Priest, be blinded, do not betray to Girendal Selvilo.
5. Get ‘x’ from room, stealing = attacked.
6. Apprentice 4 stole magical item, find, get, kill.
Enforcer Quests
1. Get soulgems from HABESHI, with Andali Sendal. (remove?)
2. Get Abeshnal into the cult with Girendal Selvilo.
3. Get Draan Solobar into the cult with Salms Alen.
4. Get flesh from slaves, summon Flesh Golem.
Conjurer Quests
1. Remove Crassi, replace with Bildam Ienevala.
2. Salms Alen in Boethian Shrine, free or kill.
3. Feed Abeshnal food, then kill.
4. Get ingredients, blind Draan Solobar, summon Hrelvejuul.
Cantor Quests
- Haakig Line -
Help Haakig, destroy the Cult.
Betray Haakig, ‘X’ die.
1. Get Noblewoman, bring to Crypt, let Golamus feed and ‘defile genes’.
2. Get “Whiteflame” for Llorys Othrenim from dangerous cave.
3. Bring Witchhunter to Maryon Saram, eventually Witchhunter is locked up.
4. Get pilgrim, get ingredients, summon Viitaeveec.
Warlock Quests
1. Kill messenger, kill Ordinators, get Ratagos.
- Choose Golamus or Llorys Othrenim –
Golamus
Prove loyalty by killing Adryn.
A. Get “Whiteflame”, get immortality book, get special stuff, let Llorys kill Golamus then command Llorys.
Llorys Othrenim
Prove loyalty by killing Mediloie Lasams.
B. Coerce Lich, get Llorys stuff, Llorys kills Golamus after you discredit him.
2. Obtain nasty stuff, abduct Cyria Flavius, feed nasty stuff, make her possessed by a Daedroth. (Might Change.)
Priest Quests
1. Find Potentate, go to Named Daedroth (ND).
a. Get ND’s soul.
b. Get ND’s fake soul.
2. Return to Potentate.
a. Kill Potentate.
b. Become Potentate.
c. Bring Potentate to ND.
2a. Be Potentate, bring Heceril soulgems.
2b. Be able to destroy cult (go to 2.d).
2c. ND is happy, reward, be Potentate, still give Heceril soulgems.
2d. Destroy cult, erase minds, free prisoners, Ordinators take over.
Potentate Quests
1. Become Hierophant.
a. Get peoples.
b. Get stuff.
Peoples;
Get Muldyn.
Get TS/Vaden Ulven.
Sacrifice, become Hierophant.
Anything I underscore is for me to remember.
1. The initial quests are ment to convey a few aspects of the cult:
- Brutal treatment of low ranking cultists.
- Difficulty in progressing.
- The 'dominance' of higher ranking cultists.
Also, that particular part of the questline was not designed by me, so I sort of 'skimmed' it. I'll fix a few things namely:
- The damaged stats last only 8 ingame hours.
- Blind will be set to a just bearable sight, since I agree TOTAL DARKNESS would be difficult to handel.
Other then that, the extreme penalties stay as far as I'm concerned. These quests are basically a substitute for the slave quests, and the fact is, low ranking cultists get abused and treated harshly, that's not going to change.
Then again, for the mushroom gather quest, I will implement a substitute; drink a nasty potion (bad effect for 12 hours), then return with X amount of mushrooms again.
Fail again, and you are expelled/attacked.
All other harshness is simply part of the beginning.
As for the script of leaving the cult, it will be hinted at that one must not leave the cult for too long. It will be explicitly told by others. Also, it fits in Molag Bal's personal style; he/she wouldn't want lowly servants escaping his grasp. The risk of letting such a servant loose in the real world for too long is simply too great.
============================================
2. Well, when designing this truckload of quests I always kept in mind a quester would have to do all this, so some times I tried to make things easier by limiting the options. When I did add options, I tried to limit those as well. And not that it justifies it, but I believe pretty much all MW-quests could only be completed after succeeding at getting item 'x', or doing action 'y'.
Sometimes I am a fan of multiple ways of completing a quest, but a. This adds extra scripting work, b. I wanted to keep a consistent 'feel' to the cult, c. I'm unable to think of satistfactory alternative quest completions atm.
I agree on you're critique of the challenge of simply moving meatbags around, so if you have a fix, please post it. Otherwise I'll have to go through the entire questline and find exactly what you're referring to, then start thinking of extra pathways.
So yeah, I think I'm gonna summarize the entire questline first to make referencing easier. Just did that now (see bottom).
Now as for the scrolls:
Scroll #1
Draan Solobar activation scroll to summon Hrelvejuul.
- Any other form of activation would do.
Scroll #2
Activation scroll for Viitaeveec.
- Any othe activation form would do.
Scroll #3
Make getting Ratagos easy scroll.
- Neccessary?
Scroll #4
Make getting Suleri Toboryn easy scroll.
- Neccessary? Or see Idea.
Idea: Make ND give you a Daedric "Chant", a sequence of Daedric words, which will substitute the CH-scroll.
Scroll #5
Get Muldyn for Hierophant ritual scroll.
- Quickfix.
Ring #1
Make controlling Witchhunter feasible.
- Most unique of the controlling items, adds for sadistic comic relief via dialogue.
Do you have any fixes?
================================
3. See the summary and you will see I've tried to at least release the load of questing work by slimming down alternatives (there are none in the early quests).
Please be more specific with regards to the accountability. I have tried to make the death of NPCs timely, so they wouldn't appear anyway regardless of being killed before the time they could've appeared. For example Girendal Selvilo stops playing a role after the Enforcer Quests, so if the player kills/killed him, it doesn't matter, you won't see him after he's done his part.
Also, quite simply, killing any NPC while seen = Kicked out of Guild and attacked on sight. We need to be very strict in that aspect in order to prevent having to account with accidental deaths.
Roads with branches are more light on questers, even though more thoughtful options would be awesome, I believe those would be more feasible in smaller questlines, since those simply create to many options. Though I might be misunderstanding you on this point.
The betrayal (backwards as you call them?) lines are specifically offered by Haakig and Suleri Toboryn, yes. I think the Haakig line could be made independent of that, though? Suleri Toboryn will stay the way he is, though. Yeah, I think making the Haakig betrayal optional is definetely a possibility.
Points:
- I agree on your Adryn Seloth begin point, will fix that.
- TS replacing Vaden Ulven was option for the sake of options. Do you have a fix? Otherwise I agree it needs to make more sense.
- Rewards are up to the quester because I can't think of any atm.
- It's starting to seem there will be no slave-line at all.
Lastly, I apologise if I mist something, your post was kind of huge.
============================================
Summary:
Apprentice Quests
1. Give flesh, stats damaged.
2. Get mushrooms, large amount. Fail is punishment.
3. Make slave eat flesh, feed slave to vampire.
4. Get ‘x’ from Priest, be blinded, do not betray to Girendal Selvilo.
5. Get ‘x’ from room, stealing = attacked.
6. Apprentice 4 stole magical item, find, get, kill.
Enforcer Quests
1. Get soulgems from HABESHI, with Andali Sendal. (remove?)
2. Get Abeshnal into the cult with Girendal Selvilo.
3. Get Draan Solobar into the cult with Salms Alen.
4. Get flesh from slaves, summon Flesh Golem.
Conjurer Quests
1. Remove Crassi, replace with Bildam Ienevala.
2. Salms Alen in Boethian Shrine, free or kill.
3. Feed Abeshnal food, then kill.
4. Get ingredients, blind Draan Solobar, summon Hrelvejuul.
Cantor Quests
- Haakig Line -
Help Haakig, destroy the Cult.
Betray Haakig, ‘X’ die.
1. Get Noblewoman, bring to Crypt, let Golamus feed and ‘defile genes’.
2. Get “Whiteflame” for Llorys Othrenim from dangerous cave.
3. Bring Witchhunter to Maryon Saram, eventually Witchhunter is locked up.
4. Get pilgrim, get ingredients, summon Viitaeveec.
Warlock Quests
1. Kill messenger, kill Ordinators, get Ratagos.
- Choose Golamus or Llorys Othrenim –
Golamus
Prove loyalty by killing Adryn.
A. Get “Whiteflame”, get immortality book, get special stuff, let Llorys kill Golamus then command Llorys.
Llorys Othrenim
Prove loyalty by killing Mediloie Lasams.
B. Coerce Lich, get Llorys stuff, Llorys kills Golamus after you discredit him.
2. Obtain nasty stuff, abduct Cyria Flavius, feed nasty stuff, make her possessed by a Daedroth. (Might Change.)
Priest Quests
1. Find Potentate, go to Named Daedroth (ND).
a. Get ND’s soul.
b. Get ND’s fake soul.
2. Return to Potentate.
a. Kill Potentate.
b. Become Potentate.
c. Bring Potentate to ND.
2a. Be Potentate, bring Heceril soulgems.
2b. Be able to destroy cult (go to 2.d).
2c. ND is happy, reward, be Potentate, still give Heceril soulgems.
2d. Destroy cult, erase minds, free prisoners, Ordinators take over.
Potentate Quests
1. Become Hierophant.
a. Get peoples.
b. Get stuff.
Peoples;
Get Muldyn.
Get TS/Vaden Ulven.
Sacrifice, become Hierophant.
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Chin Music
- Developer
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Also, mentioned in the document is that this would be something like 30 quests total?
Personally, I think that's too long. Don't get me wrong, length is a good thing. But there's maybe 10 quests worth of effort and ideas in making this faction that could be used to make an entirely new faction further diversifying the world.
I'm not sure exactly how to "slim down" the questline overall, but one thing I would consider removing is the second opportunity to betray and destroy the cult. I feel that by the time you are offered the first time you've got a pretty good idea of whether you want to stay or not, and if you refuse the first time I don't think there's much reason to believe you would change your mind.
One idea is to trim down the main "storyline" of the faction, then offer the quests you removed as optional quests, similar to the Mephala quest in the Morag Tong base.
Oh and one last thing, I hope the player actually gets to talk to Molag Bal at least when advancing to the Hierophant rank. Seems kind of anti-climactic if you don't (would he be voiced?).
Overall, the faction is very different to that of other Morrowind factions. It's much more similar to the ones in Oblivion in that it has a fairly linear series of quests with an overarching storyline (or at least recurring elements) and other more minor similarities such as special quests in order to join and a quest progression based almost entirely on your rank.
Personally, I think that's too long. Don't get me wrong, length is a good thing. But there's maybe 10 quests worth of effort and ideas in making this faction that could be used to make an entirely new faction further diversifying the world.
I'm not sure exactly how to "slim down" the questline overall, but one thing I would consider removing is the second opportunity to betray and destroy the cult. I feel that by the time you are offered the first time you've got a pretty good idea of whether you want to stay or not, and if you refuse the first time I don't think there's much reason to believe you would change your mind.
One idea is to trim down the main "storyline" of the faction, then offer the quests you removed as optional quests, similar to the Mephala quest in the Morag Tong base.
Oh and one last thing, I hope the player actually gets to talk to Molag Bal at least when advancing to the Hierophant rank. Seems kind of anti-climactic if you don't (would he be voiced?).
Overall, the faction is very different to that of other Morrowind factions. It's much more similar to the ones in Oblivion in that it has a fairly linear series of quests with an overarching storyline (or at least recurring elements) and other more minor similarities such as special quests in order to join and a quest progression based almost entirely on your rank.
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
- Developer Emeritus
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Personally, I don't care how long it is if it's made well.
I like optional quests, they are always good, but not if they make the questline impossible to do without doing them anyway. (Also, you're ignoring the fact that most of these quests are done in a non-linear order anyway)
There's nothing can be done here, and the fact that many quests are non-linear in order, have multiple choices, and that there are several ways the quests can ultimately turn out (and I would say that one thing that is needed more in this questline is a clear set of differences in later quests depending on whether you supported the Believers and the Cynics) makes this a fairly pointless claim (and to me, a mildly offensive one, because I hate Oblivion).
Show me one faction in Oblivion that does this, and I'd agree. But you can't, because they're crap. There is a big difference between our faction, and this:
1
2
3
Rank
4
5
6
Rank
etc.
Not to mention that most (save DB (which is pretty awful) and first bit of TG) of the storylines are pure awful, and offer absolutely no choice, even when there evidently should be some, and are entirely linear.
So yeah, we certainly trump that.
I like optional quests, they are always good, but not if they make the questline impossible to do without doing them anyway. (Also, you're ignoring the fact that most of these quests are done in a non-linear order anyway)
Such is the way of a one-base faction. Sorry mate.Chin Music wrote:Overall, the faction is very different to that of other Morrowind factions. It's much more similar to the ones in Oblivion in that it has a fairly linear series of quests with an overarching storyline (or at least recurring elements) and other more minor similarities such as special quests in order to join and a quest progression based almost entirely on your rank.
There's nothing can be done here, and the fact that many quests are non-linear in order, have multiple choices, and that there are several ways the quests can ultimately turn out (and I would say that one thing that is needed more in this questline is a clear set of differences in later quests depending on whether you supported the Believers and the Cynics) makes this a fairly pointless claim (and to me, a mildly offensive one, because I hate Oblivion
). Show me one faction in Oblivion that does this, and I'd agree. But you can't, because they're crap. There is a big difference between our faction, and this:
1
2
3
Rank
4
5
6
Rank
etc.
Not to mention that most (save DB (which is pretty awful) and first bit of TG) of the storylines are pure awful, and offer absolutely no choice, even when there evidently should be some, and are entirely linear.
So yeah, we certainly trump that.
a man builds a city
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
with Banks and Cathedrals
a man melts the sand so he
can see the world outside
"They destroyed Morrowind? Fiddlesticks! Now we're going to have to rebuild it again!"
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Chin Music
- Developer
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
I mean in the sense that your progression in the cult is determined directly by your rank. So you have a set of quests which you complete after which you are promoted and the next series of quests make themselves available and so on in this fashion.
Most Morrowind factions make the distinction of player skill and duties fulfilled, in what usually happens is that factions have a "bank" of quests which you complete, and ranks are there to symbolise your increase in power and to occasionally open up new privileges, typically only later ranks have any bearing on quests themselves. Overall it tends to make the faction feel a bit more freeform and less like you're following a storyline.
When it comes down to it, the only significant choice you can offer in a faction are decisions which affect the outcome of the quest and faction as a whole and yes this questline offers them (Taking sides or outright betraying the cult) which, admittedly, is more than I can say for Oblivion. But being able to do quests "out of order" or changing how the quest itself is completed is comparable to say, seeing the Redguard or the Orc for your next quest in the Oblivion Fighter's Guild (considering that you are limited to taking quests within your rank), or approaching a target stealthily or gung-ho. Choice only matters insofar as it has consequences.
This is partly why some of the dialogue choices in this faction are pretty meaningless as they're just made into a sort of guessing game where there are multiple "wrong" answers which seems to go against the idea of having dialogue choices in the first place. But if the penalties for the dialogue choices are brought back in line then I think it would again serve to promote roleplaying and not just be annoying.
Then the problem becomes that for every significant choice you add you increase the workload exponentially. Suddenly there are three quests where there was one because you added two more ways to complete it.
Like I mentioned earlier, Morrowind cleverly gets around this "railroad" feel by offering multiple sequences of quests, largely unrestricted by rank. The overall idea is to create an environment where the player does the things they do because they want to and not because the game has told them to. But reading it on a document is different to how it feels in a game.
But I reckon I can tell you right now that locking a player in a shrine until they've completed a set number of quests and then forcing them to return every two weeks are good ways to definitely not make them feel free.
Another thing I noticed is that you are forcegreeted a LOT in this questline. It's okay now and then when you really need it but overall I feel that it's used too often here to hold the player's hand.
If I was going to trim down some of the quests or otherwise make them optional, I'd probably go with:
- Apprentice mushroom quest
- Rooting out the other Apprentice who stole.
- Get soulgems from Habeshi
I would also consider removing or changing some of the rituals because quite frankly they're partly responsible for the overuse of the command humanoid routine. Personally, I feel that in the cult questline in general there is entirely too much persuading and escorting and not nearly enough killing. A suggestion would be for some of the ritual quests is to simply kill the person you would have otherwise escorted and bring back their heart or something.
I'll make another post following this one with some of my specific thoughts regarding certain quests.
Most Morrowind factions make the distinction of player skill and duties fulfilled, in what usually happens is that factions have a "bank" of quests which you complete, and ranks are there to symbolise your increase in power and to occasionally open up new privileges, typically only later ranks have any bearing on quests themselves. Overall it tends to make the faction feel a bit more freeform and less like you're following a storyline.
When it comes down to it, the only significant choice you can offer in a faction are decisions which affect the outcome of the quest and faction as a whole and yes this questline offers them (Taking sides or outright betraying the cult) which, admittedly, is more than I can say for Oblivion. But being able to do quests "out of order" or changing how the quest itself is completed is comparable to say, seeing the Redguard or the Orc for your next quest in the Oblivion Fighter's Guild (considering that you are limited to taking quests within your rank), or approaching a target stealthily or gung-ho. Choice only matters insofar as it has consequences.
This is partly why some of the dialogue choices in this faction are pretty meaningless as they're just made into a sort of guessing game where there are multiple "wrong" answers which seems to go against the idea of having dialogue choices in the first place. But if the penalties for the dialogue choices are brought back in line then I think it would again serve to promote roleplaying and not just be annoying.
Then the problem becomes that for every significant choice you add you increase the workload exponentially. Suddenly there are three quests where there was one because you added two more ways to complete it.
Like I mentioned earlier, Morrowind cleverly gets around this "railroad" feel by offering multiple sequences of quests, largely unrestricted by rank. The overall idea is to create an environment where the player does the things they do because they want to and not because the game has told them to. But reading it on a document is different to how it feels in a game.
But I reckon I can tell you right now that locking a player in a shrine until they've completed a set number of quests and then forcing them to return every two weeks are good ways to definitely not make them feel free.
Another thing I noticed is that you are forcegreeted a LOT in this questline. It's okay now and then when you really need it but overall I feel that it's used too often here to hold the player's hand.
If I was going to trim down some of the quests or otherwise make them optional, I'd probably go with:
- Apprentice mushroom quest
- Rooting out the other Apprentice who stole.
- Get soulgems from Habeshi
I would also consider removing or changing some of the rituals because quite frankly they're partly responsible for the overuse of the command humanoid routine. Personally, I feel that in the cult questline in general there is entirely too much persuading and escorting and not nearly enough killing. A suggestion would be for some of the ritual quests is to simply kill the person you would have otherwise escorted and bring back their heart or something.
I'll make another post following this one with some of my specific thoughts regarding certain quests.
How are the vanilla questlines not linear? The Fighter's Guild, the Thieves Guild and the Mages Guild all have conflict questlines which reach a climax towards the end of the faction. The Fighter's and Thieves Guild have whole sub-questlines which are both linear and can only be accessed later in the questline. The Telvanni even have a big split between being a nobody and being a Mouth, when things get really linear. You can't get certain quests without having a certain rank.
Sure, there are a lot of quest givers to choose from, but 1. that's no different from the Molag Bal questline and 2. the quests they offer are in a linear order. You can't bring Ajira the flower before getting her Mushrooms and after giving her her stolen reports. That wouldn't make any sense.
I really don't get where you're coming from; the Molag Bal questline is just as linear as vanilla questlines, and if neither of them were linear there could be no interesting stories, background and conflicts.
Sure, there are a lot of quest givers to choose from, but 1. that's no different from the Molag Bal questline and 2. the quests they offer are in a linear order. You can't bring Ajira the flower before getting her Mushrooms and after giving her her stolen reports. That wouldn't make any sense.
I really don't get where you're coming from; the Molag Bal questline is just as linear as vanilla questlines, and if neither of them were linear there could be no interesting stories, background and conflicts.
If you do not mind I think I would like to claim this one already to speed this process although it is not finished and start working on it. We then could solve some details 'on the run'. I would consult the ideas which I get during actual making of the quest here.
For the start I could create the faction, link the Hemitheon's interior and populate it with the NPC's from the list, write the advancement and expell dialogue and make the three initial quests, which seem to be finite in this version. All I need to know is this. What actually will be the ranks in the cult and what requirements. I will then consult details of the initiate quests here.
What do you think?
For the start I could create the faction, link the Hemitheon's interior and populate it with the NPC's from the list, write the advancement and expell dialogue and make the three initial quests, which seem to be finite in this version. All I need to know is this. What actually will be the ranks in the cult and what requirements. I will then consult details of the initiate quests here.
What do you think?
THEO
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Chin Music
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Just before I begin I also noticed looking over the questline again that you skip a rank. You go straight from Apprentice to Enforcer. Personally I would get around this by simply removing one of the ranks, since ordinarily factions have 9 ranks, not 10. But if you are planning on removing the Initiate "slave" quests as well, then my suggestion would be to group the Enforcer and Conjurer quests together under one "bank" of quests and split them between 3 ranks. (So you can choose advancement as you see fit like in normal factions, but are required to advance to Cantor for further quests after having completed them all)
I think part of the reason some of the vanilla factions give you more quests than you need to advance is that if you fail one then you aren't a total lost cause.
Apprentice Quests are fine, but perhaps remove or make optional (perhaps offer both at the same time, giving the player a choice) the mushroom quest and rooting out the stealing Apprentice. Of course as I mentioned before, the penalties for "wrong" answers in pretty much all of these quests should be reduced and minor rewards should be added to contrast the "correct" ones. Also I think that you should be able to leave the shrine at this point.
For example, when Adryn Seloth requests your flesh, if you refuse he should just take it anyway, and perhaps make the stat-degradation last longer/hurt more implying that he took it by force. If you agree, he could give you some fortifying/restoring potions or something afterward so you can "continue to fight Molag Bal's enemies" or something like that.
When Miliele asks you to retrieve something from her room, touching something should still prompt her appearance but resulting in a crippling drain spell for a time rather than death (perhaps Drain Speed so that the player really feels it). If you don't touch anything, she might give you a fortifying blessing instead.
When she tells you next to go into the shrine blind, if you take off the helmet/blindfold, instead of being killed, she should perhaps teleport you out of the room and inflict you with a harsh blind spell for a long length of time. (Personally I think the half of this quest where the apprentice questions you on the information can be removed. But if not, the same penalty could apply for the "wrong" answers). The correct answers/quest success could give a Night-Eye blessing.
Enforcer Quests:
The Soulgem one is an okay quest, but I don't feel it really adds anything to the cult and that's why I suggest it could be removed.
However, the other two quests both involve you persuading someone somehow, so I think that elements of the Soulgem quest could be incorporated into one of these other quests (the Mace reward could be given to the ritual quest instead).
I would say the Draan Solobar quest. Here's how it could play out.
Draan Solobar is suicidal because he has a weak personality and you are dispatched to ensure he does not kill himself. Restore his faith in himself and the cult by giving him the mission of retrieving 3 grand soulgems from Habeshi (you are told to offer this to him beforehand). He agrees and tells you to check on him in one day. After one day your journal updates to tell you to check on him. Go to the house and kill Habeshi as usual and find Draan hiding in the secret compartment. He will tell you he was hiding but is nonetheless proud he got the soul gems and agrees to serve the cult once more (it doesn't matter if he's a particularly good cultist or not considering they intend to use him for a ritual later anyway)
Abeshnal quest.
1. Forcegreet by Girendal isn't necessary.
2. Agreeing to let Girendal complete this quest for you should result in no reward.
3. Abeshnal could be convinced in one of two ways. Either by successfully casting any charm spell on her (maybe of a certain power), or by persuading her via dialogue options unlocked via high disposition. Doing either one will result in a journal entry saying you've succeeded.
First Heceril Ritual.
This quest is fine.
Conjurer Quests
Replacing Crassi Conciatius:
1. I think that killing Crassi without being seen should also result in success. If you are caught however then the quest is a failure.
2. Also killing Relie without being seen should result in success.
3. For both these things however doing it more legitimately and secretly could result in higher reward.
Saving Private Salms Alen
1. Both the real and hidden entrances could lead to the jail where Salms Alen is being kept, but the hidden entrance would be closer.
2. It might be a nice touch to give the player a list of the cultist's names beforehand.
4. If you give Salms Alen the key at his first request, how are you to know if he gave away secrets when you are prompted to return to him? My advice: Don't give him the option of escaping before you get him to confess.
5. You can tell Kalort that you left him to rot but you only seem to get the option of either killing him or setting him free. After he has confessed, you should be free to do what you want to him, and leaving him there will qualify as having killed him for later questline purposes.
6. I think that your response to Kalort should be automated depending on what you -actually- did with Salms. If you can lie then your actions regarding him really have no consequence and it's easy to simply pick the "best" option. Killing him should give you a reward, but setting him free should result in perhaps a really harsh penalty (permanent stat reduction might be appropriate here), but maybe not total expulsion (because the player couldn't have known beforehand unless they had been playing really close attention to the lore/rules. Although if you still insist expulsion, I won't object. But in that case, the option to lie should be presented because otherwise it would be too easy to screw yourself by saving in between when you free Salms and when you speak to Kalort).
Sacrificing Abeshnal:
1. The blessing that eating the heart of Abeshnal conveys could change depending on whether you fed her the food by tricking her, forcing her or persuading her.
Summoning Hrelvejuul:
1. This quest is fine, but once again the reward might change depending on how you get Draan to eat the soul gem.
Help Hakiig:
1. Forcegreet isn't necessary after 3 day period meeting
2. If you tell Ratagos the whole truth and he attacks you, word should still get out about the cult's location (perhaps even if you kill him).
3. Sick rewards could perhaps come in the form of artifacts on the final priest's body. In this case, forcegreet is somewhat appropriate.
4. Depending on which priest you tell of Hakiig's plot, it should probably change just the reward and not the method of killing (seems like it would add unnecessary work). You should be able to collect this reward even if you declined Hakiig's offer.
Golamus' First Quest:
The quest should definitely be vampire related and offer the reward of vampirism (which should be acceptable at any time unless Golamus dies), but once again, trying to avoid overuse of Command escorting. I have no ideas just now though.
Maryon Saram's Witchhunter:
1. Perhaps Vaden Ulven could only say that the man was in that town, and maybe where he was staying. You would have to go to the town to ask the people where the witchhunter was headed.
2. When attempting to convince the Witchhunter to come with you, instead of attacking you if you get an answer wrong, he should perhaps just "Goodbye." you and get a big disposition decrease, and you will have to get his disposition back up in order to try again.
3. I don't see how it matters where you meet him in Llothanis.
4. I think pickpocketing fainted NPCs is only possible with the Morrowind Code Patch. My suggestion would be to have it so that you enter a normal fight with him and after his health gets low enough he stops fighting you and you are given some sort of a message saying you slipped the ring on his finger while he was weakened.
5. Doesn't the Witchhunter killing himself void future quests? The option to tell him to do so should probably not exist or otherwise result in some dialogue where he does something other than kill himself. Punching himself should probably just fatigue him (like hitting his head on the bars apparently does).
Getting Whiteflame
This quest is fine
Summoning Viitaeveec
Another escort quest which eventually requires the use of Command humanoid. I think I suggested this might be removed/made optional earlier, otherwise I can't think of how to change it.
That's all I'm going to do for now. I might look over the remaining quests a bit later.
I think part of the reason some of the vanilla factions give you more quests than you need to advance is that if you fail one then you aren't a total lost cause.
Apprentice Quests are fine, but perhaps remove or make optional (perhaps offer both at the same time, giving the player a choice) the mushroom quest and rooting out the stealing Apprentice. Of course as I mentioned before, the penalties for "wrong" answers in pretty much all of these quests should be reduced and minor rewards should be added to contrast the "correct" ones. Also I think that you should be able to leave the shrine at this point.
For example, when Adryn Seloth requests your flesh, if you refuse he should just take it anyway, and perhaps make the stat-degradation last longer/hurt more implying that he took it by force. If you agree, he could give you some fortifying/restoring potions or something afterward so you can "continue to fight Molag Bal's enemies" or something like that.
When Miliele asks you to retrieve something from her room, touching something should still prompt her appearance but resulting in a crippling drain spell for a time rather than death (perhaps Drain Speed so that the player really feels it). If you don't touch anything, she might give you a fortifying blessing instead.
When she tells you next to go into the shrine blind, if you take off the helmet/blindfold, instead of being killed, she should perhaps teleport you out of the room and inflict you with a harsh blind spell for a long length of time. (Personally I think the half of this quest where the apprentice questions you on the information can be removed. But if not, the same penalty could apply for the "wrong" answers). The correct answers/quest success could give a Night-Eye blessing.
Enforcer Quests:
The Soulgem one is an okay quest, but I don't feel it really adds anything to the cult and that's why I suggest it could be removed.
However, the other two quests both involve you persuading someone somehow, so I think that elements of the Soulgem quest could be incorporated into one of these other quests (the Mace reward could be given to the ritual quest instead).
I would say the Draan Solobar quest. Here's how it could play out.
Draan Solobar is suicidal because he has a weak personality and you are dispatched to ensure he does not kill himself. Restore his faith in himself and the cult by giving him the mission of retrieving 3 grand soulgems from Habeshi (you are told to offer this to him beforehand). He agrees and tells you to check on him in one day. After one day your journal updates to tell you to check on him. Go to the house and kill Habeshi as usual and find Draan hiding in the secret compartment. He will tell you he was hiding but is nonetheless proud he got the soul gems and agrees to serve the cult once more (it doesn't matter if he's a particularly good cultist or not considering they intend to use him for a ritual later anyway)
Abeshnal quest.
1. Forcegreet by Girendal isn't necessary.
2. Agreeing to let Girendal complete this quest for you should result in no reward.
3. Abeshnal could be convinced in one of two ways. Either by successfully casting any charm spell on her (maybe of a certain power), or by persuading her via dialogue options unlocked via high disposition. Doing either one will result in a journal entry saying you've succeeded.
First Heceril Ritual.
This quest is fine.
Conjurer Quests
Replacing Crassi Conciatius:
1. I think that killing Crassi without being seen should also result in success. If you are caught however then the quest is a failure.
2. Also killing Relie without being seen should result in success.
3. For both these things however doing it more legitimately and secretly could result in higher reward.
Saving Private Salms Alen
1. Both the real and hidden entrances could lead to the jail where Salms Alen is being kept, but the hidden entrance would be closer.
2. It might be a nice touch to give the player a list of the cultist's names beforehand.
4. If you give Salms Alen the key at his first request, how are you to know if he gave away secrets when you are prompted to return to him? My advice: Don't give him the option of escaping before you get him to confess.
5. You can tell Kalort that you left him to rot but you only seem to get the option of either killing him or setting him free. After he has confessed, you should be free to do what you want to him, and leaving him there will qualify as having killed him for later questline purposes.
6. I think that your response to Kalort should be automated depending on what you -actually- did with Salms. If you can lie then your actions regarding him really have no consequence and it's easy to simply pick the "best" option. Killing him should give you a reward, but setting him free should result in perhaps a really harsh penalty (permanent stat reduction might be appropriate here), but maybe not total expulsion (because the player couldn't have known beforehand unless they had been playing really close attention to the lore/rules. Although if you still insist expulsion, I won't object. But in that case, the option to lie should be presented because otherwise it would be too easy to screw yourself by saving in between when you free Salms and when you speak to Kalort).
Sacrificing Abeshnal:
1. The blessing that eating the heart of Abeshnal conveys could change depending on whether you fed her the food by tricking her, forcing her or persuading her.
Summoning Hrelvejuul:
1. This quest is fine, but once again the reward might change depending on how you get Draan to eat the soul gem.
Help Hakiig:
1. Forcegreet isn't necessary after 3 day period meeting
2. If you tell Ratagos the whole truth and he attacks you, word should still get out about the cult's location (perhaps even if you kill him).
3. Sick rewards could perhaps come in the form of artifacts on the final priest's body. In this case, forcegreet is somewhat appropriate.
4. Depending on which priest you tell of Hakiig's plot, it should probably change just the reward and not the method of killing (seems like it would add unnecessary work). You should be able to collect this reward even if you declined Hakiig's offer.
Golamus' First Quest:
The quest should definitely be vampire related and offer the reward of vampirism (which should be acceptable at any time unless Golamus dies), but once again, trying to avoid overuse of Command escorting. I have no ideas just now though.
Maryon Saram's Witchhunter:
1. Perhaps Vaden Ulven could only say that the man was in that town, and maybe where he was staying. You would have to go to the town to ask the people where the witchhunter was headed.
2. When attempting to convince the Witchhunter to come with you, instead of attacking you if you get an answer wrong, he should perhaps just "Goodbye." you and get a big disposition decrease, and you will have to get his disposition back up in order to try again.
3. I don't see how it matters where you meet him in Llothanis.
4. I think pickpocketing fainted NPCs is only possible with the Morrowind Code Patch. My suggestion would be to have it so that you enter a normal fight with him and after his health gets low enough he stops fighting you and you are given some sort of a message saying you slipped the ring on his finger while he was weakened.
5. Doesn't the Witchhunter killing himself void future quests? The option to tell him to do so should probably not exist or otherwise result in some dialogue where he does something other than kill himself. Punching himself should probably just fatigue him (like hitting his head on the bars apparently does).
Getting Whiteflame
This quest is fine
Summoning Viitaeveec
Another escort quest which eventually requires the use of Command humanoid. I think I suggested this might be removed/made optional earlier, otherwise I can't think of how to change it.
That's all I'm going to do for now. I might look over the remaining quests a bit later.
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Chin Music
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And Gnomey, what I basically mean is that in this questline pretty much every quest or short series of quests is a prerequisite for the next one/series. In the vanilla factions, this typically only happens after you reach a certain, high rank, but in this questline it is like this the whole way through.
Just for the sake of the hypothetical, let's say a vanilla faction might look something like this:
10 ranks.
There are a series of "upper level" quests which become unlocked when you hit Rank 7.
You need to complete 15 quests to hit Rank 7.
Prior to Rank 7 though, there will be a large "bank" of say, 20 quests. Some are in sequences and require the previous one's completion, some are standalone. But the point is you essentially get to complete quests in any way you like, as well as gradually improving your abilities so that you actually try to steadily earn that Rank 7 and can move into the "super quests" for that faction. Once you hit Rank 7 though, these "super quests" are given one by one and each require the previous one's completion.
However the Molag Bal Cult is more like this:
10 ranks.
Every rank has a "batch" quests, and you can only do quests which are at your rank. Sometimes these "batches" are sequential, sometimes they can be done in any order. However each of those 3/4 quests MUST be completed before you qualify for the next rank, where you are given your next "batch" of quests. Repeat until Rank 10.
These are exaggerated examples, but as you see, the quests themselves aren't necessarily sequential, but the ranks are, and each rank "contains" a certain amount of quests. This is very similar to how it's done in Oblivion. The difference being is that in Oblivion you aren't given as much choice with regards to how to complete individual quests or what your reward will be, and there are no "branching" plotlines.
Just for the sake of the hypothetical, let's say a vanilla faction might look something like this:
10 ranks.
There are a series of "upper level" quests which become unlocked when you hit Rank 7.
You need to complete 15 quests to hit Rank 7.
Prior to Rank 7 though, there will be a large "bank" of say, 20 quests. Some are in sequences and require the previous one's completion, some are standalone. But the point is you essentially get to complete quests in any way you like, as well as gradually improving your abilities so that you actually try to steadily earn that Rank 7 and can move into the "super quests" for that faction. Once you hit Rank 7 though, these "super quests" are given one by one and each require the previous one's completion.
However the Molag Bal Cult is more like this:
10 ranks.
Every rank has a "batch" quests, and you can only do quests which are at your rank. Sometimes these "batches" are sequential, sometimes they can be done in any order. However each of those 3/4 quests MUST be completed before you qualify for the next rank, where you are given your next "batch" of quests. Repeat until Rank 10.
These are exaggerated examples, but as you see, the quests themselves aren't necessarily sequential, but the ranks are, and each rank "contains" a certain amount of quests. This is very similar to how it's done in Oblivion. The difference being is that in Oblivion you aren't given as much choice with regards to how to complete individual quests or what your reward will be, and there are no "branching" plotlines.
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MMMowSkwoz
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You could just have a script such that (at the appropriate point) if you activate him when his fatigue is less than 0, you lose the ring / get a journal update / whatever. But yes, I don't think normal pickpocketing would work without the Code Patch.Chin Music wrote:4. I think pickpocketing fainted NPCs is only possible with the Morrowind Code Patch. My suggestion would be to have it so that you enter a normal fight with him and after his health gets low enough he stops fighting you and you are given some sort of a message saying you slipped the ring on his finger while he was weakened.
MaMeeshkaMowSkwoz - choose your syllables
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Chin Music
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You know, somehow, when I opened the thread just now seeing that you had replied, I knew it would be regarding that particular point.
Stay cool, MMMowSkwoz.
Oh and I also wanted to say that I suggested fighting him instead partly because it would be easier to do than reducing his fatigue to zero and you wouldn't be able to accidentally kill him. But maybe it's supposed to be that way. I just hate the idea of being able to accidentally become stuck in a questline.
Stay cool, MMMowSkwoz.
Oh and I also wanted to say that I suggested fighting him instead partly because it would be easier to do than reducing his fatigue to zero and you wouldn't be able to accidentally kill him. But maybe it's supposed to be that way. I just hate the idea of being able to accidentally become stuck in a questline.
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MMMowSkwoz
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Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or anything. I think BC already mentioned that beating the Witchhunter into submission could be a bit troublesome. But if you fight him there's always the possibility you could kill him by mistake (especially if your character was very powerful).
MaMeeshkaMowSkwoz - choose your syllables
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Chin Music
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Man you ain't being rude. You're just a really good scripter.
The alternative is to make him invincible but then that sort of goes against what the game is supposed to be about.
Maybe if you were given some sort of temporary Hand-to-Hand fortification for the duration of the fight? A weak dagger with a damage fatigue enchantment (it could double as a quest reward)? There's lots of ways to do it, the problem is figuring out which way is going to be the simplest while making the most sense.
The alternative is to make him invincible but then that sort of goes against what the game is supposed to be about.
Maybe if you were given some sort of temporary Hand-to-Hand fortification for the duration of the fight? A weak dagger with a damage fatigue enchantment (it could double as a quest reward)? There's lots of ways to do it, the problem is figuring out which way is going to be the simplest while making the most sense.
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Chin Music
- Developer
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
Round 2!
Warlock Quests
It's not really made clear here how you pick a side, and what benefits picking a side conveys. Personally, I think you should be able to side with Golamus regardless of whether or not you are a vampire, and in fact being a vampire should probably only exclude you from Llorys' side of the quests.
I say this because vampirism isn't handled very well in Morrowind. Being a vampire sucks. Oh goddamn I just realised I made a joke.
Protecting the Cult
1. I'm not sure exactly how hard it is to script an NPC running through a large area without the player's presence.
2. While a running Dunmer is probably pretty obvious, she could probably at least say "Get out of my way I'm delivering an important message" or something before Goodbye'ing you. Just as a confirmation.
3. Maryon should offer some reward if you intercepted the messenger, but not if you let her reach Tel Ouada.
4. You probably don't need to interrogate the "X" NPC to get her to say what happened. Anyone walking into the Temple would probably be curious about the body on the floor. The player might also need some direction to be told to talk to X.
5. You should somehow meet Maryon Saram before you encounter Ratagos and the Ordinators, as many people's first instincts would be to kill them all and ask questions later if they have been given no prior direction, and Ratagos is required for a later quest.
6. Again requires the use of Command Humanoid. I don't know when or how often it would be appropriate to use this in the questline if at all, but personally I'm not in favour of it as I mentioned, as I think it would be too easy to accidentally screw yourself.
Golamus' Alliance
1. What constitutes "Betraying Golamus"? I don't think the whole ring part is really necessary.
2. The "Khizfah Tomb" should probably have plenty of enemies or puzzles because otherwise this quest is not particularly challenging.
3. I imagine that the document is given to you by Golamus beforehand and can be shown to Maryon Saram at any point in the duel.
4. Again, Command Humanoid on a hostile NPC. Llorys isn't used in any future quests so you might consider killing him. But he is supposed to be your "reward" for this quest, so I dunno.
Llorys Alliance
1. Just a wording suggestion for the description, it should probably read "blackmail" and not "incriminate" with regards to the Lich.
2. If you betray Llorys, like I mentioned earlier it might be better if you didn't have to be a vampire.
Priest Ritual
1. Taking flesh and blood from slaves is a common recurring task throughout the questline, it might make this particular quest more interesting/challenging if you had to source the ingredients from somewhere else.
2. Huge long Command Humanoid requirement here. Again.
3. How would the cutting out of the heart be handled? I think it would be cool if you just had to kill her, take her heart out of inventory and put the soulgem in it. It would make the quest feel less "scripted". The possession would be implied and she would "come back to life" anyway when you leave.
Priest Quest/s
1. As I mention earlier, perhaps consider removing the opportunity to betray the cult here. I say that by the time you are first offered you know if you want to stay or not and if you decline the first time it's pretty reasonable to expect people to decline the second time. But mostly it's just to cut down on the overall size/workload of the faction.
2. I still think you should run with the whole thing about Suleri being a traitor though and being able to either comply with his demands or fake him out, but that it shouldn't lead to anything from there other than differences in reward and maybe some hints that Suleri is a traitor if you take the Daedroth's soul.
3. Soul trapping a unique creature sounds a bit risky, considering it would be easy to accidentally kill it without soul trapping it. I can't really think of any feasible alternatives for this other than unrealistic ones like making him respawn (although that might work if you work in something about how when killed they just return to Oblivion and can eventually be summoned back... unless they are soul trapped wink wink)
4. Again, Command Humanoid required to transport an otherwise hostile NPC.
Potentate Quest
There should be a big deal and a crapload of lore dialogue surrounding the ascent to Hierophant. Probably shouldn't just arise by talking to Heceril and saying "yo dude, I want more power can you help me out? C'mon man you know I'm good for it". You should have to work your way through some sort of lore-intense conversation with him where he eventually lets the idea of the Hierophant slip and you can question him further about it (and evne Heceril, and experienced Ritualist will speak tentatively, almost fearfully about the means required to achieve such a feat). Just as a thought the whole "idea" of the Hierophant should be some legendary demi-god servant of Molag Bal who essentially represents the bridge between mortal and divine so great is his power/faith blah blah blah.
1. Need to Soul Trap another named creature. I think having to do this is a good idea but I don't know any way around the probability of accidental failure.
2. If Vaden Ulven does not know the whereabouts of Muldyn Theray, how should the player be given clues to find her? This is important as I think it represents the challenge of this part of the quest, as transporting her is a simple matter of talking to her.
3. Have to cast a one time Paralysis scroll on an NPC. I think that any decent Paralysis spell should trigger the advancement. I also assume that the NPC ("TS") is non-hostile. The second part of this quest with the opportunity to betray Vaden Ulven should stay, provided there is a good enough reason established for the player to suddenly turn around and denounce Vaden Ulven as a traitor and replace him with someone unknown to you until just now. Obviously as Potentate you could probably say that you can do as you please, but TS's plight in particular has to be more convincing.
4. Considering this is the final big bad grandaddy quest, the remaining items should probably not be so easily acquired and could also stand to be more evil. Hell you can buy Dreugh Wax in some shops. I'm thinking maybe something like a weapon which has been used to kill one innocent of every (playable) race and you are basically just given said weapon and told to go to work.
Warlock Quests
It's not really made clear here how you pick a side, and what benefits picking a side conveys. Personally, I think you should be able to side with Golamus regardless of whether or not you are a vampire, and in fact being a vampire should probably only exclude you from Llorys' side of the quests.
I say this because vampirism isn't handled very well in Morrowind. Being a vampire sucks. Oh goddamn I just realised I made a joke.
Protecting the Cult
1. I'm not sure exactly how hard it is to script an NPC running through a large area without the player's presence.
2. While a running Dunmer is probably pretty obvious, she could probably at least say "Get out of my way I'm delivering an important message" or something before Goodbye'ing you. Just as a confirmation.
3. Maryon should offer some reward if you intercepted the messenger, but not if you let her reach Tel Ouada.
4. You probably don't need to interrogate the "X" NPC to get her to say what happened. Anyone walking into the Temple would probably be curious about the body on the floor. The player might also need some direction to be told to talk to X.
5. You should somehow meet Maryon Saram before you encounter Ratagos and the Ordinators, as many people's first instincts would be to kill them all and ask questions later if they have been given no prior direction, and Ratagos is required for a later quest.
6. Again requires the use of Command Humanoid. I don't know when or how often it would be appropriate to use this in the questline if at all, but personally I'm not in favour of it as I mentioned, as I think it would be too easy to accidentally screw yourself.
Golamus' Alliance
1. What constitutes "Betraying Golamus"? I don't think the whole ring part is really necessary.
2. The "Khizfah Tomb" should probably have plenty of enemies or puzzles because otherwise this quest is not particularly challenging.
3. I imagine that the document is given to you by Golamus beforehand and can be shown to Maryon Saram at any point in the duel.
4. Again, Command Humanoid on a hostile NPC. Llorys isn't used in any future quests so you might consider killing him. But he is supposed to be your "reward" for this quest, so I dunno.
Llorys Alliance
1. Just a wording suggestion for the description, it should probably read "blackmail" and not "incriminate" with regards to the Lich.
2. If you betray Llorys, like I mentioned earlier it might be better if you didn't have to be a vampire.
Priest Ritual
1. Taking flesh and blood from slaves is a common recurring task throughout the questline, it might make this particular quest more interesting/challenging if you had to source the ingredients from somewhere else.
2. Huge long Command Humanoid requirement here. Again.
3. How would the cutting out of the heart be handled? I think it would be cool if you just had to kill her, take her heart out of inventory and put the soulgem in it. It would make the quest feel less "scripted". The possession would be implied and she would "come back to life" anyway when you leave.
Priest Quest/s
1. As I mention earlier, perhaps consider removing the opportunity to betray the cult here. I say that by the time you are first offered you know if you want to stay or not and if you decline the first time it's pretty reasonable to expect people to decline the second time. But mostly it's just to cut down on the overall size/workload of the faction.
2. I still think you should run with the whole thing about Suleri being a traitor though and being able to either comply with his demands or fake him out, but that it shouldn't lead to anything from there other than differences in reward and maybe some hints that Suleri is a traitor if you take the Daedroth's soul.
3. Soul trapping a unique creature sounds a bit risky, considering it would be easy to accidentally kill it without soul trapping it. I can't really think of any feasible alternatives for this other than unrealistic ones like making him respawn (although that might work if you work in something about how when killed they just return to Oblivion and can eventually be summoned back... unless they are soul trapped wink wink)
4. Again, Command Humanoid required to transport an otherwise hostile NPC.
Potentate Quest
There should be a big deal and a crapload of lore dialogue surrounding the ascent to Hierophant. Probably shouldn't just arise by talking to Heceril and saying "yo dude, I want more power can you help me out? C'mon man you know I'm good for it". You should have to work your way through some sort of lore-intense conversation with him where he eventually lets the idea of the Hierophant slip and you can question him further about it (and evne Heceril, and experienced Ritualist will speak tentatively, almost fearfully about the means required to achieve such a feat). Just as a thought the whole "idea" of the Hierophant should be some legendary demi-god servant of Molag Bal who essentially represents the bridge between mortal and divine so great is his power/faith blah blah blah.
1. Need to Soul Trap another named creature. I think having to do this is a good idea but I don't know any way around the probability of accidental failure.
2. If Vaden Ulven does not know the whereabouts of Muldyn Theray, how should the player be given clues to find her? This is important as I think it represents the challenge of this part of the quest, as transporting her is a simple matter of talking to her.
3. Have to cast a one time Paralysis scroll on an NPC. I think that any decent Paralysis spell should trigger the advancement. I also assume that the NPC ("TS") is non-hostile. The second part of this quest with the opportunity to betray Vaden Ulven should stay, provided there is a good enough reason established for the player to suddenly turn around and denounce Vaden Ulven as a traitor and replace him with someone unknown to you until just now. Obviously as Potentate you could probably say that you can do as you please, but TS's plight in particular has to be more convincing.
4. Considering this is the final big bad grandaddy quest, the remaining items should probably not be so easily acquired and could also stand to be more evil. Hell you can buy Dreugh Wax in some shops. I'm thinking maybe something like a weapon which has been used to kill one innocent of every (playable) race and you are basically just given said weapon and told to go to work.
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immortal_pigs
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- Location: Utrecht
*** IMPORTANT ***
1. We need rewards.
Please help making up rewards for the cult, they can be specific per quest, or just in general to be used where applicable.
They can be:
Items,
Spells,
Weapons,
Clothing,
Enchanted Stuff,
Armor,
Books,
Potions,
etc....
2. We need spells.
The cult needs some unique spells to be sold by the spell sellers. So anything with a fitting name, that has something to do with Alteration, Illusion, Mysticism, or anything else that fits with the cult should do. Nothing to uber, and preferably some low-level spells, mid-level spells, and high-level spells.
*** END ****
@ Chin Music:
Okay, you're posts are huge, Chin Music, but I want to thank you for taking a critical look at the entire questline. First of all, I'm going to respons to every one of you're ideas for the quests themselves.
Please don't pay anymore attention to the rewards/forcegreets, that's up to the quester, not me.
Skip Rank:
Rank 1 will be reserved for the slaves of the cult (which the player won't be a part of). So in order to make all the slaves a part of the cult itself, and to make sure the player doesn't go around killing slaves for fun, they're Rank 1 in the faction. The player starts at Rank 2.
Apprentice:
"Wrong" = punisment,
"Correct" = full reward,
"Somewhat Correct" = somewhat reward.
Will do.
You get to leave the shrine once you become Enforcer. The player will be explicitly told they must serve as an Apprentice inside the cult because they simply are not yet trusted enough, or worthy enough to be allowed to leave.
Adryn Seloth fix: Yes.
Miliele fix: Yes, reward would be very minor though, because all you're doing is transporting an item for about 10 meters.
Blind fix: Yes, and yes.
Enforcer:
Soulgem Quest: agreed.
Draan + Soulgem comb: Yes.
Abeshnal:
2. Yes.
3. Yes (if I can think of how to implement).
Conjurer:
Crassi Quest: Yes, the killing options would be a nice addition + the varying rewards, very good idea.
Save Salms:
1. Sure.
2. Sure.
4. Will take a second look.
5. Okay.
6. Okay.
Sacrifice Abeshnal:
- I'm gonna change this ritual somewhat, but I think varying rewards for eating a heart (the eating the heart part might be removed regardless), seems a bit too far-fetched plus the player likely won't anticipate the differences. It would be too minor to be of added roleplaying experience imho.
Summon Hrelvejuul:
- Same as above.
Help Haakig:
2. Why if you kill Ratagos? The problem in getting away would be Ratagos telling the world about your nasty affiliations and would result in a (death?) bounty.
3. Will check that out.
4. Yeah, I added choice in entirely the wrong place there. Okay with the reward parts.
Golamus:
- Wasn't the quest Vampire related?? My idea for substituting command humanoid in this case would be persuading Noblewoman in dialogue. You first get a scroll from Golamus, though.
Whatever you say she will be so naive she will follow you regardless. Unless you say something stupid, in that case she says "Goodbye", but doesn't go combat or anything. Just cast the scroll and she will have to follow. So the scroll is a backup.
Not using the scroll earns you an extra speechcraft book from Golamus.
Witchhunter:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes (another wrong addition of choice)
4. Hm? I'm going to say: Let the quester deal with it or your suggestion?
5. Yes.
Viitaeveec:
- You don't really offer a suggestion here, so I'll look for myself and see what I can do.
============
You need to be a Vampire for Golamus because that was part of the original quest design and I did not want to change everything that had been thought up beforehand. Personally I'm neutral regarding this particular subject so yeah.. Maybe a vote would be an option? I'll try that.
Protecting the Cult:
1. Let's assume it's possible.
2. Okay.
3. Yes, nice addition here as well.
4. No, the idea is this "X" was told by Ratagos to pay attention/watch. Plus this adds for some nice doalogue roleplaying (which is a lot easier then scripting).
5. Okay, will have to check the line out again first. 6. I'll look for an alternative, or change most other comhum quests so this one becomes isolated in doing that.
Golamus Line:
1. I don't know what you're referring to, but I'll check it out.
2. Okay, I think that interior needs to be made first.
3. I guess.
4. Need to check that out as well.
Llorys:
1. I'm assuming the quester has enough common sense to filter out my mistakes.
Priest:
1. If you can think of an equally disturbing subsitute, maybe.
2. Pointing out that error doesn't make it dissapear.
3. Sure.
I'll respond to the rest later tomorrow, and will upload I file with those updates plus other things I underlined.
[/i]
1. We need rewards.
Please help making up rewards for the cult, they can be specific per quest, or just in general to be used where applicable.
They can be:
Items,
Spells,
Weapons,
Clothing,
Enchanted Stuff,
Armor,
Books,
Potions,
etc....
2. We need spells.
The cult needs some unique spells to be sold by the spell sellers. So anything with a fitting name, that has something to do with Alteration, Illusion, Mysticism, or anything else that fits with the cult should do. Nothing to uber, and preferably some low-level spells, mid-level spells, and high-level spells.
*** END ****
@ Chin Music:
Okay, you're posts are huge, Chin Music, but I want to thank you for taking a critical look at the entire questline. First of all, I'm going to respons to every one of you're ideas for the quests themselves.
Please don't pay anymore attention to the rewards/forcegreets, that's up to the quester, not me.
Skip Rank:
Rank 1 will be reserved for the slaves of the cult (which the player won't be a part of). So in order to make all the slaves a part of the cult itself, and to make sure the player doesn't go around killing slaves for fun, they're Rank 1 in the faction. The player starts at Rank 2.
Apprentice:
"Wrong" = punisment,
"Correct" = full reward,
"Somewhat Correct" = somewhat reward.
Will do.
You get to leave the shrine once you become Enforcer. The player will be explicitly told they must serve as an Apprentice inside the cult because they simply are not yet trusted enough, or worthy enough to be allowed to leave.
Adryn Seloth fix: Yes.
Miliele fix: Yes, reward would be very minor though, because all you're doing is transporting an item for about 10 meters.
Blind fix: Yes, and yes.
Enforcer:
Soulgem Quest: agreed.
Draan + Soulgem comb: Yes.
Abeshnal:
2. Yes.
3. Yes (if I can think of how to implement).
Conjurer:
Crassi Quest: Yes, the killing options would be a nice addition + the varying rewards, very good idea.
Save Salms:
1. Sure.
2. Sure.
4. Will take a second look.
5. Okay.
6. Okay.
Sacrifice Abeshnal:
- I'm gonna change this ritual somewhat, but I think varying rewards for eating a heart (the eating the heart part might be removed regardless), seems a bit too far-fetched plus the player likely won't anticipate the differences. It would be too minor to be of added roleplaying experience imho.
Summon Hrelvejuul:
- Same as above.
Help Haakig:
2. Why if you kill Ratagos? The problem in getting away would be Ratagos telling the world about your nasty affiliations and would result in a (death?) bounty.
3. Will check that out.
4. Yeah, I added choice in entirely the wrong place there.
Okay with the reward parts.Golamus:
- Wasn't the quest Vampire related?? My idea for substituting command humanoid in this case would be persuading Noblewoman in dialogue. You first get a scroll from Golamus, though.
Whatever you say she will be so naive she will follow you regardless. Unless you say something stupid, in that case she says "Goodbye", but doesn't go combat or anything. Just cast the scroll and she will have to follow. So the scroll is a backup.
Not using the scroll earns you an extra speechcraft book from Golamus.
Witchhunter:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes (another wrong addition of choice
)4. Hm? I'm going to say: Let the quester deal with it or your suggestion?
5. Yes.
Viitaeveec:
- You don't really offer a suggestion here, so I'll look for myself and see what I can do.
============
You need to be a Vampire for Golamus because that was part of the original quest design and I did not want to change everything that had been thought up beforehand. Personally I'm neutral regarding this particular subject so yeah.. Maybe a vote would be an option? I'll try that.
Protecting the Cult:
1. Let's assume it's possible.
2. Okay.
3. Yes, nice addition here as well.
4. No, the idea is this "X" was told by Ratagos to pay attention/watch. Plus this adds for some nice doalogue roleplaying (which is a lot easier then scripting).
5. Okay, will have to check the line out again first. 6. I'll look for an alternative, or change most other comhum quests so this one becomes isolated in doing that.
Golamus Line:
1. I don't know what you're referring to, but I'll check it out.
2. Okay, I think that interior needs to be made first.
3. I guess.
4. Need to check that out as well.
Llorys:
1. I'm assuming the quester has enough common sense to filter out my mistakes.
Priest:
1. If you can think of an equally disturbing subsitute, maybe.
2. Pointing out that error doesn't make it dissapear.
3. Sure.
I'll respond to the rest later tomorrow, and will upload I file with those updates plus other things I underlined.
[/i]
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Chin Music
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I understand about the starting at rank 2 thing. So does that mean the progression goes straight from Apprentice to Enforcer and the "Enlightened" rank is removed? (Personally I think Enlightened is a better name given the progression from lowly errand boy to "real" cultist)
With regards to one of the Command Humanoid bits, where the Named Daedroth asks you to Comman Suleri, I liked the idea mentioned earlier of the Daedroth giving you a set of "magic words" to be used during dialogue with Suleri which would command him.
The difference being that when you are presented with the option of saying the words, it should also give you options that are similar to the magic words but not quite right (so the player has to remember them). I don't know what the reaction would be to the wrong options though.
And also getting different bonuses for the heart thing is a great idea. I was already fond of the idea of getting a heart to eat as a reward, but if you were going to present the option of different ways to get Abeshnal to eat the food anyway then they may as well have some practical effect. It would be super easy and obvious, like this:
- Fed Abeshnal by trickery: Eating the heart conveys +2/3 Illusion skill bonus
- Fed by force: Heart gives +2/3 Blunt Weapon
- Fed by persuasion: Heart gives +2/3 Speechcraft
As for spells, there's really not a whole lot to say. Just standard spells which fit with the theme given special names. Unless you can think of cool high level combination spells
With regards to one of the Command Humanoid bits, where the Named Daedroth asks you to Comman Suleri, I liked the idea mentioned earlier of the Daedroth giving you a set of "magic words" to be used during dialogue with Suleri which would command him.
The difference being that when you are presented with the option of saying the words, it should also give you options that are similar to the magic words but not quite right (so the player has to remember them). I don't know what the reaction would be to the wrong options though.
And also getting different bonuses for the heart thing is a great idea. I was already fond of the idea of getting a heart to eat as a reward, but if you were going to present the option of different ways to get Abeshnal to eat the food anyway then they may as well have some practical effect. It would be super easy and obvious, like this:
- Fed Abeshnal by trickery: Eating the heart conveys +2/3 Illusion skill bonus
- Fed by force: Heart gives +2/3 Blunt Weapon
- Fed by persuasion: Heart gives +2/3 Speechcraft
As for spells, there's really not a whole lot to say. Just standard spells which fit with the theme given special names. Unless you can think of cool high level combination spells
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Chin Music
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And what I meant by the Ratagos thing is the way the quest is written it seems like if you confess your affiliation to the cult then he attacks and it basically ends there. Maybe confessing could earn you a bounty, but you should still be able to "complete" the betrayal.
My point with the Golamus Alliance quest is that it should STAY vampire related. With the second Golamus quest (helping him be immortal), he gives you an unremovable ring and tells you he'll use it to kill you if you betray him. What could you do to betray him that wouldn't get you kicked out of the cult anyway? (attacking him, stealing from him)
With gathering the flesh for the Priest ritual, maybe the ritual calls for the flesh of High Elves or something, but you have no High Elf slaves. So maybe you're given the location of a High Elf camp or just given a list of nonimportant High Elf NPCs and told to get that stuff.
My point with the Golamus Alliance quest is that it should STAY vampire related. With the second Golamus quest (helping him be immortal), he gives you an unremovable ring and tells you he'll use it to kill you if you betray him. What could you do to betray him that wouldn't get you kicked out of the cult anyway? (attacking him, stealing from him)
With gathering the flesh for the Priest ritual, maybe the ritual calls for the flesh of High Elves or something, but you have no High Elf slaves. So maybe you're given the location of a High Elf camp or just given a list of nonimportant High Elf NPCs and told to get that stuff.
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theviking
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For the spells we could try some illusion combinations, such as a combined command humanoid and blind. Or a high burden combined with a damage health. Just put two spell effects together that screws up the opponent. For a reward something with command humanoid on it, so it makes those mission a bit easier.
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Reviews: more then 250!
Quest Reviews: 3
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Currently looking for quest designers.
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immortal_pigs
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Sorry for the wait, I had a test week plus I got caught up in Fallout 3. But here it is:
- Attachments
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- Molag Bal v.1.doc
- (162.5 KiB) Downloaded 445 times
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MMMowSkwoz
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Damn, that took a long time to read. This going to be a big mother of a quest line to make. Anyway, some thoughts:
1. In the joining quests, You say that the vampire you kill should be the only monster in the Ruinous Crypt. There are already 5 vampires placed there.
2. How does the player act as a spy/saboteur to the IC/IL/Temple? Why are only TR versions counted?
3. I guess the slave bracelets are no longer part of it since the slave rank is gone?
4. In the 'proving loyalty and faith', give a number for the number of mushroom to be brought. 'Every single one' means the player won't know when they've finished, and how would Adryn Seloth know how many there were in the cave anyway?
5. Helmet with Blind spell won't necessarily blind the player (if they resist magicka)
6. What purpose does the 'expulsion after 2 weeks away' serve? Personally, I think it would just be annoying and not add anything to the line.
7. What happens if you screw up the Draan Solobar quest (2nd enforcer quest)? Does he kill himself? (How about Salms Alan casts a paralysis spell if you fail to convince Draan?)
8. The Robe and the Dagger you get for becoming a Cantor are too uber.
9. What happens if you kil the Witchhunter at any point?
10. Swearing allegience to Golamus/Llorys: what if Adryn Seloth/Mediloie were killed by the Witchhunter?
11. The 1st Warlock quest heavily involves Ratagos. What if he's already dead? Does it really need to be Ratagos anyway?
12. When betraying Llorys, what if you accidentally kill him?
13. I agree that the second betrayal option doesn't need to be there.
Overall, there are a lot of times where the player could accidentally kill someone and completely screw everything up. I think we need to come up with contingencies for that. My only other concern is that you can be a big dog in the Imperial Cult / Imperial Legion / Temple and still do this line. Unless there's going to be an actual spy/traitor line built in, I'd prefer it if you just couldn't join if you were in them.
Other than that though, it's awesome.
1. In the joining quests, You say that the vampire you kill should be the only monster in the Ruinous Crypt. There are already 5 vampires placed there.
2. How does the player act as a spy/saboteur to the IC/IL/Temple? Why are only TR versions counted?
3. I guess the slave bracelets are no longer part of it since the slave rank is gone?
4. In the 'proving loyalty and faith', give a number for the number of mushroom to be brought. 'Every single one' means the player won't know when they've finished, and how would Adryn Seloth know how many there were in the cave anyway?
5. Helmet with Blind spell won't necessarily blind the player (if they resist magicka)
6. What purpose does the 'expulsion after 2 weeks away' serve? Personally, I think it would just be annoying and not add anything to the line.
7. What happens if you screw up the Draan Solobar quest (2nd enforcer quest)? Does he kill himself? (How about Salms Alan casts a paralysis spell if you fail to convince Draan?)
8. The Robe and the Dagger you get for becoming a Cantor are too uber.
9. What happens if you kil the Witchhunter at any point?
10. Swearing allegience to Golamus/Llorys: what if Adryn Seloth/Mediloie were killed by the Witchhunter?
11. The 1st Warlock quest heavily involves Ratagos. What if he's already dead? Does it really need to be Ratagos anyway?
12. When betraying Llorys, what if you accidentally kill him?
13. I agree that the second betrayal option doesn't need to be there.
Overall, there are a lot of times where the player could accidentally kill someone and completely screw everything up. I think we need to come up with contingencies for that. My only other concern is that you can be a big dog in the Imperial Cult / Imperial Legion / Temple and still do this line. Unless there's going to be an actual spy/traitor line built in, I'd prefer it if you just couldn't join if you were in them.
Other than that though, it's awesome.
MaMeeshkaMowSkwoz - choose your syllables
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Chin Music
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I read the revised document a while ago. Apart from the points MowSkwoz mentioned (like way too many places where you can screw yourself over by killing essential people. This wouldn't be a problem if they did nothing to provoke your attack, but regularly you are forced into combat with them, whether accidentally or not. There are hard quests, and then there are dumb quests), there are still a few issues which I have mentioned. You can still inadvertently kill Adryn Seloth without ever even being offered the opportunity to join the cult, and you still skip a rank in the linear progression of quests.
There are also numerous other minor discrepancies, such as the Draan Salobar quest still being more or less identical to the Abeshnal quest despite your agreement with my reccommended change.
Although I don't think it's a big deal that the player can be in the Temple, etc as well. It's explained to you that as long as your first loyalty is to Molag Bal you can stay in the other factions "falsely".
There are also numerous other minor discrepancies, such as the Draan Salobar quest still being more or less identical to the Abeshnal quest despite your agreement with my reccommended change.
Although I don't think it's a big deal that the player can be in the Temple, etc as well. It's explained to you that as long as your first loyalty is to Molag Bal you can stay in the other factions "falsely".
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MMMowSkwoz
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But there are no real implications. You can go on to be head of the mainland temple whilst still being Heirophant of the Molag Bal cult? I don't like it.Chin Music wrote:Although I don't think it's a big deal that the player can be in the Temple, etc as well. It's explained to you that as long as your first loyalty is to Molag Bal you can stay in the other factions "falsely".
MaMeeshkaMowSkwoz - choose your syllables
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Chin Music
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It works just the same way with any contested factions in that advancing in one reduces your disposition with members of the other. Yet it's still possible to belong to and be the leader of both the Mages Guild and House Telvanni for example. Or the Temple and Imperial Cult for a slightly more relevant example.
The cults are already going to be excluded from each other, there's no real need to exclude even more.
The cults are already going to be excluded from each other, there's no real need to exclude even more.
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Jedak
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Exactly.The cults are already going to be excluded from each other, there's no real need to exclude even more.
That the player can be both a member of the MBC and say the Imperial legion adds quite some depth IMO. I mean, it could make the player still feel sworn to the Legion in a way and cause him to choose one of the paths that would destroy the cult - or be really wicked and not.
Lots of fun.
Macar: At last, I have a coleague to work with.
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MMMowSkwoz
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Ok, well we shouldn't delay it for that. If common consensus is that they can join all those factions, that's fine.
I still think there are a lot of issues to be addressed if the player kills any one of those people accidentally. I can only see two options:
1. Expulsion for any failure to complete the quest correctly.
2. A large number of contingencies built in that allow the player to continue (and advance?) anyway.
Opinions?
I still think there are a lot of issues to be addressed if the player kills any one of those people accidentally. I can only see two options:
1. Expulsion for any failure to complete the quest correctly.
2. A large number of contingencies built in that allow the player to continue (and advance?) anyway.
Opinions?
MaMeeshkaMowSkwoz - choose your syllables
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Chin Music
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While I'm not completely sure, to me it seems like the way the vanilla game handles it is that the death of an essential NPC is just another way to complete the quest. It's the wrong way and doing it repeatedly will get you in trouble, but it is a way. The problem with this questline though is that nearly every quest relies on the completion of the one before it, and later quests often rely on the survival of specific essential NPCs who are forced into situations with a high risk of death.
Expulsion is a bit extreme I think if there is a high risk of failure. But on the other hand, the contigencies that would have to be put in place to allow you to advance would almost make it pointless to have put that essential NPC in a high-risk situation anyway. Likely, they would require you to find yet another NPC, with a much lower risk of failure. This is because later quests rely on NPCs from earlier quests, if this were not the case you could instead just confer in-faction penalties for failure.
As for killing NPCs beforehand without any notice of their importance, if you go around killing NPCs willy nilly it's kind of your own fault if you didn't realise they were essential. Sure, it's an issue if they are hostile or conflicting with another quest, but if you kill them unprovoked it's your own fault.
So, my opinion is that these essential NPCs be removed from any circumstances with a high risk of death or failure on the player's part (such as missing with a spell scroll essential [or near enough] for the quest's completion) through clever, case-by-case workarounds blended into the gameplay.
So just as an example, instead of commanding humanoid on an NPC, you could recite "magic words" in a dialogue choice or otherwise use a special item. For a hostile NPC you could be instructed to hit them with a special 0 damage weapon which commands them totally (not a spell effect, a script. Not sure how possible that would be).
The problem with this questline in particular then is that it makes the whole thing entirely too easy, since the potential death of essential NPCs is a recurring theme. My thoughts on this: For NPCs that are "absolutely" essential, in that they are required for future quests for story reasons or whatever, use script workarounds. For NPCs that are NOT necessary for future quests, instead apply contigencies such as alternative NPCs (with lower risk and lower reward, if any reward at all) OR in-faction penalties such as stat damage or being forced to perform a menial task for the faction before you can progress any further.
Expulsion is a bit extreme I think if there is a high risk of failure. But on the other hand, the contigencies that would have to be put in place to allow you to advance would almost make it pointless to have put that essential NPC in a high-risk situation anyway. Likely, they would require you to find yet another NPC, with a much lower risk of failure. This is because later quests rely on NPCs from earlier quests, if this were not the case you could instead just confer in-faction penalties for failure.
As for killing NPCs beforehand without any notice of their importance, if you go around killing NPCs willy nilly it's kind of your own fault if you didn't realise they were essential. Sure, it's an issue if they are hostile or conflicting with another quest, but if you kill them unprovoked it's your own fault.
So, my opinion is that these essential NPCs be removed from any circumstances with a high risk of death or failure on the player's part (such as missing with a spell scroll essential [or near enough] for the quest's completion) through clever, case-by-case workarounds blended into the gameplay.
So just as an example, instead of commanding humanoid on an NPC, you could recite "magic words" in a dialogue choice or otherwise use a special item. For a hostile NPC you could be instructed to hit them with a special 0 damage weapon which commands them totally (not a spell effect, a script. Not sure how possible that would be).
The problem with this questline in particular then is that it makes the whole thing entirely too easy, since the potential death of essential NPCs is a recurring theme. My thoughts on this: For NPCs that are "absolutely" essential, in that they are required for future quests for story reasons or whatever, use script workarounds. For NPCs that are NOT necessary for future quests, instead apply contigencies such as alternative NPCs (with lower risk and lower reward, if any reward at all) OR in-faction penalties such as stat damage or being forced to perform a menial task for the faction before you can progress any further.
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Jedak
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If somebody still plays morrowind, its becaues they read dialogue, love depth and are not stupid people who spend all day blowing up people senselessly in some fps game with no story.
So if we treat the audience that this mod is going to as smart people, I'm sure they wont stuff up a quest by not trying or go off and start killing essential npcs senslesly (sp?)
So if we treat the audience that this mod is going to as smart people, I'm sure they wont stuff up a quest by not trying or go off and start killing essential npcs senslesly (sp?)
Macar: At last, I have a coleague to work with.
Lady N: Jedak-of-all-trades
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MMMowSkwoz
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Chin Music
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I'd say that the issues are, put simply:
1. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with, who are essential for later quests.
2. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with.
The problems associated with these respective issues are:
1. The risk of the NPCs death in these situtions is quite high, and as they are required for later quests or for progression of the current quest for story reasons, their death effectively leaves you "stranded" in the questline, unable to advance any further.
2. There have been no alternative methods of completion proposed for these quests should the NPC in question die. For NPCs who are not required for later quests, it is not out of the question to have them die, there just needs to be an alternate method to conclude the quest and move on. So as it currently stands, the deaths of these NPCs also leave you stranded.
My proposed solutions:
1. Don't put these NPCs in any situations where there is a reasonable risk of their accidental death. They can still be hostile, but in that case the thing that you must do to them must carry a 100% chance of success and be clearly explained to the player. If they are made non-hostile in certain situations, then you might have to do something more complicated to them, but they must not be allowed to become hostile.
2. For NPCs that are not essential for quests later in the storyline, but whose life must be preserved for the current quest, there should be an alternate method of concluding the quest should they die. This could be anything ranging from being directed to an alternate quest completion method for less/no reward, being forced to perform a menial task to compensate for your failure, or direct punishment within the faction such as a damage skills effect, disposition/reputation drop, or blocking the use of services.
Just as an example of what an alternate method of completion could be, say you're asked to escort a hostile NPC to the base using Command Humanoid for a ritual. You could be told that if the NPC dies, then the ritual could still be completed by taking their heart/blood/flesh/whatever from their dead body and bringing that instead. The ritual would not be as effective/appeasing though and so you would get less/no reward.
I still think though that wherever possible, something as chancey as Command Humanoid should be avoided.
1. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with, who are essential for later quests.
2. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with.
The problems associated with these respective issues are:
1. The risk of the NPCs death in these situtions is quite high, and as they are required for later quests or for progression of the current quest for story reasons, their death effectively leaves you "stranded" in the questline, unable to advance any further.
2. There have been no alternative methods of completion proposed for these quests should the NPC in question die. For NPCs who are not required for later quests, it is not out of the question to have them die, there just needs to be an alternate method to conclude the quest and move on. So as it currently stands, the deaths of these NPCs also leave you stranded.
My proposed solutions:
1. Don't put these NPCs in any situations where there is a reasonable risk of their accidental death. They can still be hostile, but in that case the thing that you must do to them must carry a 100% chance of success and be clearly explained to the player. If they are made non-hostile in certain situations, then you might have to do something more complicated to them, but they must not be allowed to become hostile.
2. For NPCs that are not essential for quests later in the storyline, but whose life must be preserved for the current quest, there should be an alternate method of concluding the quest should they die. This could be anything ranging from being directed to an alternate quest completion method for less/no reward, being forced to perform a menial task to compensate for your failure, or direct punishment within the faction such as a damage skills effect, disposition/reputation drop, or blocking the use of services.
Just as an example of what an alternate method of completion could be, say you're asked to escort a hostile NPC to the base using Command Humanoid for a ritual. You could be told that if the NPC dies, then the ritual could still be completed by taking their heart/blood/flesh/whatever from their dead body and bringing that instead. The ritual would not be as effective/appeasing though and so you would get less/no reward.
I still think though that wherever possible, something as chancey as Command Humanoid should be avoided.