(future) Joining Great House Indoril/Dres

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:44 am

Just to know, assuning it will be possible to join great house Indoril or gh Dres, you don't have to belong to ANY of the great houses in Vvardenfell or Mainland, right? I just want to know if I have to keep a house-clean save waiting for map 3 (I'm the Nerevarine so I want to join my house, Indoril

) or if there will be the possibility to join one of the mainland-only great houses being in a vvardenfell great house.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:26 am

Obviously, you can't join House Indoril if you are in House Telvanni, Redoran, Hlaalu or Dres. And you can't join House Dres if you are in House Hlaalu, Indoril, Redoran or Telvanni.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:43 pm

Just to know. I didn't know if beig the nerevarine gives you special privileges, at least for house Indoril...

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:47 pm

Being Hortator and Nerevarine doesn't grant you membership in all houses. Plus, you only have been recognized explicitly by Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni. You did not go to the Mainland to be declared Hortator of the Dres and the Indoril.

If the Stranger decided to be involved in a house other than Indoril, the decision is out of House Indoril's hands.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:03 pm

I meant "Nerevarine" as "Lord Nerevar Indoril reborn", not "Whateverashlandtribe Nerevarine".

I'm into the "It's all true" view of the Nerevarine saga

Anyway I imagined so, I just wanted to be sure I have to despair if i lose mi "MQFinished" saves

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:26 pm

The leadership of House Indoril reserves itself the right not to be convinced that "it's all true". Especially if the truth of it all means that the reincarnation of their most prestigious member, Indoril Nerevar, thought them so unworthy as to choose to join a different Great House.

As far as House Indoril is concerned, excuses such as "well, you understand, your land didn't exist yet, there was no choice available but the three Great Houses that have holdings on Vvardenfell, and I was bored so I didn't want to wait until you existed to join a House" will not fly.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:58 pm

House Indoril's leader Grand Ascendant Neril Sevuro is highly skeptical of the "Hortator/Nerevarine" thing. Don't forget that you are not the first to be named so. Others have come before you and failed, so House Indoril has already become quite cynical about these old customs and legends of a coming savior. Likewise, Neril Sevuro would have a HUGE problem with the fact that the PC is an outlander.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:03 pm

Yea, but if you already finished the MWMQ you're pretty far from "failing"

(P.S.: I'm not trying to convince to change things, just for the sake of opinion speech

)

Rydeh · Post by **Rydeh** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:17 pm

I agree. Though just because you fulfilled the Nerevarine's 'objectives' i guess would not really mean you are the actual incarnation. Things can happen by coincidence and lets not forget the power of suggestion. The mere suggestion of you being called the Nerevarine can make a person think he is.

And lets be honest most of the items that made you the Nerevarine in the MQ came around by accident of coincidence.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:30 pm

You know it's like Vivec said "If you walk like a Nerevarine, act as a Nerevarine, look like a Nerevarine so you must be a Nerevarine" or something like that

For sure, Azura likes you or she wouldn't bug you since the game started with dreams and visions and istructions and whatever.

Rydeh · Post by **Rydeh** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:42 pm

I guess it's down to you're perception of the MQ. For me Cornelius became the Nerevarine through a series of coincidences that made him seem so. I never actually thought he was THE Nerevarine.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:31 pm

Of course, there's not "the" nerevarine, but "a" nerevarine. Every PC we played has a different story, and some (with the 6th/Dagoth house mods or by choice of the player) never became Nerevarine... poor Azura

Gez wrote:As far as House Indoril is concerned, excuses such as "well, you understand, your land didn't exist yet, there was no choice available but the three Great Houses that have holdings on Vvardenfell, and I was bored so I didn't want to wait until you existed to join a House" will not fly. Razz

You know, I'd quite like to see the face of the Indorlis hearing this kind of excuse...

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:05 am

Hello everyone. I've been watching Tamriel Rebuilt under different aliases over the years, but never was available to contribute due to the mysterious "real life" that plagues everyone after their 18th birthday.

This discussion intrigues me greatly however, and I thought I would kick off my new alias with a semi-bang.

I understand that TR has a strict policy of not messing with anything in Vvardenfell Province. Ok. That being said, WE, have to remember that House Dres and Indoril didn't exsist in Bethesda's mind when creating the game. Does this mean that House Indoril and Dres were not interested in the affairs of Vvardenfell? Certainly not. Does this mean that the "Stranger" should remain insignificant and virtually unknown to them even though they, as houses, have not declared him/her as Hortator? I personally don't think so.

"o hai, who r u?"
"I am the Incarnate, Hortator of House Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni."
"Oh, kthxbye. N00b."

To me, if someone holds the power of Great War Leader for THREE Great Houses walks through a door, I think someone in the chain of command had better shut up and pay attention, even if they hold them in low reguards and superstitions. Who cares if you became it "through a series of coincidences." No one else can wear good ol' "Moon and Star" can they?

"Thats a fake ring!" *takes ring, and attempts to put it on*
"You dead? Yeah, you dead." </familyguymovieadjustedreference>

Same goes for being a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, or Grandmaster of another House. Granted, the Knight of the Imperial Dragon Title is for the Vvardenfell province, BUT YOU ARE A KNIGHT OF THE IMPERIAL DRAGON, you went there playa. I don't know if Grandmaster extends beyond the Vvardenfell province for the Houses, but heck, you are up there, somebody better pay attention.

While the new maps, in their great and masterful attention to detail and stickler to lore-friendliness, are wonderful, they lack a certain something for high ranking faction members and to me it breaks the reality that this is a fully integrated world. Its almost like there is "Vvardenfell" and then there is the rest of the world.

Just my thoughts. I know that a lot of work has gone into these maps already, and I think that I speak for everyone when I say that we, the gaming community for Morrowind, appreciate your efforts. It is because of you that we keep playing.

I also come to you to offer my services as a Quest/dialogue writer, but I will discuss this elsewhere, with all the other cool cats.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:04 am

IIRC, House Dunmer have only recently moved into Vvardenfell. So you're right. There is Morrowind politics and then there is Vvardenfell politics, like any nation vs. its colonies and outer territories. Vvardenfell is not the political/social center of Morrowind. Of the numerous centers, you have Port Telvannis, Tear, Narsis, Almalexia, Ald-ruhn (only recently). So when a player struts his stuff on the mainland. It's like, "Wow! You're the greatest of the nobodies."

Being Hortator is only going to get you attention from people who want a hortator. House Indoril is notoriously resistant to naming a hortator, simply because of what it means. A hortator means that the house itself is in need of external direction. In honor-bound orders like House Indoril, admitting need for external help is tantamount to political suicide. And even then, you get named hortator by House Redoran, House Hlaalu, and House Telvanni. House Indoril only respects one of those three. So getting named by Hlaalu and Telvanni really isn't going to help you there.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:33 am

While I do agree with the Argument of Hortator, there are other factions, and other forces at play in the world. The Dunmer houses have been present in Vvardenfell for at LEAST one Era, however long that may be. I would have to do some more lore digging, but I refer you to the Pocket Guide of the Empire, Third Edition, for starters.

The general argument that is being made is that the interactions between TR's Morrowind and Vvardenfell are not very realistic. I know that some of these Two maps are in the early stages of their release, but having noone even recognize that you are say, the Grandmaster of House Hlaalu, or the Knight of the Imperial Dragon in Firewatch, is something that is a bit unusual.

For example, as Hortator, you have the backing of 3 of the 5 Great Houses, (the Unmourned House not included) I do not wish to imply that the player should become Hortator of Indoril or Dres, but rather, interactions with these factions should be tailored to the status of the Player Character, creating a sense of realism, and perhapse even a negative one. Dres, being the xenophobic house, might begin to be hostile to the player. But let's not forget as well, that there were those in House Redoran and Telvanni that did not want you to become Hortator either, going so far as to duel with honor or kill you without.

My simple argument is that faction standings, being whatever they may, should have an impact on what happens in TR's Morrowind. Let's not forget that King Helseth wanted the PC dead, as seen in Tribunal. So word of "the Stranger" did spread to the mainland. These sorts of interactions would add further flavor to the mod, in my opinion, and truly bring it to life, if it has indirect connections with Vvardenfell.

Andres Indoril · Post by **Andres Indoril** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:43 am

Vvardenfell Territory has been open for settlement since 3E 414. That is 13 years before the Nerevarine's arrival in Morrowind.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:49 am

Ah yes. That's correct. I knew that Vvardenfell's territory had some settlements in it before then, but most of the territory was owned by the Temple. These included Ebonheart, Ald-Rhun, and a few others.

13 years is a long time in the medieval timescales. Despite my lorilogical error, my argument still stands.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:28 am

Regulus wrote:I understand that TR has a strict policy of not messing with anything in Vvardenfell Province. Ok. That being said, WE, have to remember that House Dres and Indoril didn't exsist in Bethesda's mind when creating the game. Does this mean that House Indoril and Dres were not interested in the affairs of Vvardenfell? Certainly not. Does this mean that the "Stranger" should remain insignificant and virtually unknown to them even though they, as houses, have not declared him/her as Hortator? I personally don't think so.

Try this in vanilla Morrowind. Join, say, House Hlaalu when you're at Balmora to see Caius. Then do the main quest until you're Hortator of the three houses. Then try to join up House Redoran by telling them that you're the Awesome Nerevarine so you should be able to join whatever house you want to, right?

The topic isn't about "should the player character gets mad propz if he finished the mainquest"; it's "should the player character gets allowed to join House Indoril or Dres". And the answer is exactly the same as Bethesda's: you can join any Great House you wish, as long as you didn't join another first.

Being the Nerevarine will certainly get you liked in House Indoril, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to formally join it if you already belong to another house.

As for getting everyone to gush over you because you're the Big Damn Hero, Bethesda did that with "E-e-e-excuse me but you're the Nerevarine and I don't know what to say except thank you and can I have your autograph please?" and it annoyed everyone.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:42 am

The majority of the game is geared to be played before the MQ is completed. You can still play after obviously, but all events in Morrowind were meant to take place between the time the Nerevarine came to Morrowind and defeated Dagoth Ur. Creating excessive gameplay(beyond some dialogue) for the Nerevarine after the mainquests have been done is a waste really. The game is essentially done once you become Nerevarine, Morrowind and time moves no further, and we cannot both build Morrowind and the history that takes place between it and Oblivion.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:27 am

Wat regulus saind makes me think... there are some faction-related quests you are allowed to take even if you don't belong to the faction... and in there is the Orvas Dren glitch that makes you in Hlaalu even if you are already in Redoran or Telvanni.
Could be the something like that also for house Indoril or Dres, some (hidden and very difficult) house quest you can do even if you're not in the house that makes the council/archboss say "oh almsivi, you did a great thing for us, you are indeed worthy of our respect. Be our guest Nerevarine - or whoever you are..."

Plus, in the path of the incarnate you "join" the ashlander faction with a kind of "guest" rank. Too bad isn't possible to do something like that for the hortator rank as well (i think it couldn't be for a mere variable-settings problem, cause if you are in a house and you're the hortator you couldn't advance in your house... ashlanders is a not-joinable faction... but maybe i'm wrong)

...ok, boy, keep dreaming

Akul · Post by **Akul** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:01 pm

That being said, WE, have to remember that House Dres and Indoril didn't exsist in Bethesda's mind when creating the game.

Bethesda initially wanted to create entire Morrowind with all five great houses, but later reduced it to Vvardanfel and the three great houses. So it WAS in their mind when they were creating MW but they just decided to not implent them into the game.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:34 pm

God damnit, I had this entire thing written out last night before anyone replied, but I lost my net right before I could post. It is still fairly applicable. Just want to say though to Aiwyn, that the dren thing was a glitch, and we would not intentionally mess something up.

Regulus wrote:Hello everyone. I've been watching Tamriel Rebuilt under different aliases over the years

Hi, if your registering of different users is because of lost passwords, drop me a PM

Regulus wrote:I understand that TR has a strict policy of not messing with anything in Vvardenfell Province. Ok. That being said, WE, have to remember that House Dres and Indoril didn't exsist in Bethesda's mind when creating the game. Does this mean that House Indoril and Dres were not interested in the affairs of Vvardenfell? Certainly not. Does this mean that the "Stranger" should remain insignificant and virtually unknown to them even though they, as houses, have not declared him/her as Hortator? I personally don't think so.

House Dres and Indoril did exist in the minds the Bethesda when the made Morrowind. That is why ordinators wear indoril armor, mournhold is in indoril territory, and house dres is mentioned in the redguard comic. They honestly didn't stake any claims ont he mainland. The issue of Dagoth Ur is Vvard's problem so the mainland houses do not concern themselves with it. (hell, that might be why they didn't go there in the first place for all we know)

Regulus wrote:"o hai, who r u?"
"I am the Incarnate, Hortator of House Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni."
"Oh, kthxbye. N00b."

More like "The matters of Vvardenfel are not of any concern to me outlander. Leave before I have you removed." for that last line

Regulus wrote:To me, if someone holds the power of Great War Leader for THREE Great Houses walks through a door, I think someone in the chain of command had better shut up and pay attention, even if they hold them in low reguards and superstitions. Who cares if you became it "through a series of coincidences." No one else can wear good ol' "Moon and Star" can they?

Other people have responded to this better than I did last night.

Regulus wrote:Same goes for being a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, or Grandmaster of another House. Granted, the Knight of the Imperial Dragon Title is for the Vvardenfell province, BUT YOU ARE A KNIGHT OF THE IMPERIAL DRAGON, you went there playa. I don't know if Grandmaster extends beyond the Vvardenfell province for the Houses, but heck, you are up there, somebody better pay attention.

All Vvard factions are treated as backwoods country bumpkins. While your ranks in those factions are grounds for some questless promotion, don't expect any real respect for it. Vvardenfel is just an island in morrowind province btw.

Regulus wrote:While the new maps, in their great and masterful attention to detail and stickler to lore-friendliness, are wonderful, they lack a certain something for high ranking faction members and to me it breaks the reality that this is a fully integrated world. Its almost like there is "Vvardenfell" and then there is the rest of the world.

That is because Vvardenfel is a quarantined island that to the rest of the world is unremarkable, uncivilized, and irrelevant.

Regulus wrote:I also come to you to offer my services as a Quest/dialogue writer, but I will discuss this elsewhere, with all the other cool cats.

Welcome, I look forward to your showcase.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:54 pm

Aiwyn the Breton wrote:and in there is the Orvas Dren glitch that makes you in Hlaalu even if you are already in Redoran or Telvanni.

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Just want to say though to Aiwyn, that the dren thing was a glitch, and we would not intentionally mess something up.

I know that was a gitch, but is still in the game

And... if a glitch like that slipped throught the Bethesda team, could be the same for a similar glitch to the TR one..

But I understand and respect the lore-treatment policy of TR, so that's fine for me. I seriosly don't care about joining more than a house or not, I just regret to have the house-quest precluded for that. Nothing you can't solve with multiple savegames

I think the better thing should be a "housefriend" rank you can achieve as a hortator, so you can ask question but you don't advance in rank, but as i said it's impossible because it would mess all up if you are indeed a member of a great house.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:55 pm

No, there will be no opportunity to join (in *any* respect) Houses Indoril or Dres if you are in a Vvardenfell House. If you want to join, you either don't join a Vvardenfell House, or start a new character, simple as. Anything else would cheapen the experience.

Yes, they might be respectful to you in certain circumstances, but no, they will not be doing anything out of character (i.e. 'guest position') for the Great Houses as we know them from Morrowind (as in TES3).

Regarding Regulus' point, I agree with you that that is one of TR's biggest problems on the 'seamless' front. And I don't really like it either.

But, that doesn't change that it is still hard, unrewarding, and also just not very fun (like Gez said, what do we do, more 'N-N-Nerevarine'? Or double our dialogue/quest load?) to do anything else. So, apart from the few cases where we do work stuff in, this is probably how it stays for the foreseeable future (as far as I can see).

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:43 pm

Aiwyn the Breton wrote:And... if a glitch like that slipped throught the Bethesda team, could be the same for a similar glitch to the TR one..

We're certainly not going to be putting intentional glitches in our mods.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:52 pm

In fact, now we will probably extensively test how you join the factions just to make sure no such glitch exists. If you want a glitch, just make your own plug-in for it.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:16 pm

Gez wrote: We're certainly not going to be putting intentional glitches in our mods.

Obviously.

In fact... maybe there are more chances a gitch like this slippes through original games than fan-made mods... fan are - most times - more accurate than people who work on something, i noticed that seeing a trekker confronting a ST script supervisor on some YATI's

TÃƒÂ¹relio wrote:In fact, now we will probably extensively test how you join the factions just to make sure no such glitch exists.

So this thread turned useful, in the end

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:21 pm

Again, I would like to reiterate that my argument does not revolve around joining multiple houses. Like every one else here, that's just silly, and for a third time, that is not my argument.

MY argument revolves around acknowledgments for PC accomplishments in Vvardenfell, because as of now, Nothing will be changed to integrate the Mainland and the Island. SO I feel that some sort of different approach is in order to make the players feel that the Mainland and Vvardenfell interact with each other to some degree.

As I have hinted before, I think the degree of respect should vary with the faction. Consider this. Being a Faction leader is like being a General Manager for your company's store. No, your not the highest ranking member in the business, but you do have at least semi-respect from some of the members of YOUR faction. Of course, as said before, this depends on the faction. Being the head of Thieves Guild, Mages Guild, Fighters Guild, or perhaps even the Morag Tong, probably doesn't garnish significant respect from anyone but members of your faction. Being the Grandmaster of a House should garnish ACKNOWLEDGMENT (friendly or hostile) from other houses, especially YOUR own. and No I don't mean the availability of membership to another house. Being the Knight of the Imperial Dragon should grant you significant respect in the Imperial Areas, as you are a member of the Imperial Knighthood, and are a loyal servant of the Emperor. Does that make you eligible for candy canes and lollipops? Probably not. Should that make you eligible for a different tier of Imperial Quests? I think so.

"JOIN THE IMPERIAL LEGION?"
"I...I already am...I am a Knight of the Imperial Dragon."
"Good, take this chainmail, and wear it when you report to me, Recruit."

To me, this doesn't make sense. Yes, Vvardenfell is a group of "Backcountry bumpkins" but then Morrowind is a group of backcountry bumpkins to the Empire.

There is something else that I have thought of, which is actually quite lame for the Player Character. Instead of being able to join "Tamriel Rebuilt's Imperial Legion" as a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, people could just say to you "Don't you have responsibilities elsewhere? As said, this would be a huge shootdown to the player character, but it does provide an alternative to starting from square one.

On the other hand, providing missions for higher level characters is always an alternative as well, and as a higher ranking official, it would be logical that the PC reports to higher ranking officials as well, as a sort of skip to chapter 11 system that allows the world to be explored even for high level characters.

I can make myself available for these sort of things, if needs be. I don't make suggestions without having the ability to fulfill them.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:54 pm

This is a problem, but not one with an easy solution. Do we:

1) Ignore Vvardenfell faction memberships - unrealistic
2) Acknowledge membership, but begin from low rank - unrealistic
3) Remove low level quests for Vvardenfell faction members - restricts play
4) Add special lines for Vvardenfell faction members - restricts play and adds to work

I had an idea for the East Empire Company quest line that gets around this in a slightly cheesy way: News from Solstheim has not yet reached the mainland. The Factor in Helnim isn't sure whether to believe you, so dispatches a messenger to confirm your membership and leaves you at a low rank in the meantime. Unfortunately, due to the excessive bureaucracy of the EEC, this correspondence takes a long time. Conveniently, it is exactly the same amount of time it takes for you to rise to a reasonable rank in the mainland EEC.

This hasn't been implemented yet. Obviously you couldn't keep doing that for multiple factions or it would become silly.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:07 pm

Regulus wrote:MY argument revolves around acknowledgments for PC accomplishments in Vvardenfell, because as of now, Nothing will be changed to integrate the Mainland and the Island. SO I feel that some sort of different approach is in order to make the players feel that the Mainland and Vvardenfell interact with each other to some degree.

But they don't, there is a quarantine.

Regulus wrote:Consider this. Being a Faction leader is like being a General Manager for your company's store. No, your not the highest ranking member in the business, but you do have at least semi-respect from some of the members of YOUR faction.

I don't think people in NYC would care that you manage the podunk middle of nowhere McDonalds in a town with 500 people.

Regulus wrote:Should that make you eligible for a different tier of Imperial Quests? I think so.

You are no fun, lol. It doesn't have to be like this, so we aren't going to make it like this.

Regulus wrote:"JOIN THE IMPERIAL LEGION?"
"I...I already am...I am a Knight of the Imperial Dragon."
"Good, take this chainmail, and wear it when you report to me, Recruit."

I have described in the OE castle thread an NPC who would say almost exactly that only with more yelling and a demeaning tone.

Regulus wrote:To me, this doesn't make sense. Yes, Vvardenfell is a group of "Backcountry bumpkins" but then Morrowind is a group of backcountry bumpkins to the Empire.

But you aren't going to the rest of the empire now are you.

Regulus wrote:There is something else that I have thought of, which is actually quite lame for the Player Character. Instead of being able to join "Tamriel Rebuilt's Imperial Legion" as a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, people could just say to you "Don't you have responsibilities elsewhere? As said, this would be a huge shootdown to the player character, but it does provide an alternative to starting from square one.

Already shot this down

Regulus wrote:On the other hand, providing missions for higher level characters is always an alternative as well, and as a higher ranking official, it would be logical that the PC reports to higher ranking officials as well, as a sort of skip to chapter 11 system that allows the world to be explored even for high level characters.

There is some skipping for people with sufficient rank in Vvard factions already, just not much. More like skipping to chapter 3 or so.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:50 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote: I don't think people in NYC would care that you manage the podunk middle of nowhere McDonalds in a town with 500 people.

No they wouldn't, but we are not talking about a run of the mill McDonald's are we? We are talking about a House political system that you happen to be the Grandmaster of. I think that if you are the Grandmaster of a House that is on an Island of your country that is within swimming distance of the mainland in some areas, and an area that Vivec, a god of the Tribunal has decided to call his home, someone better give a hoot.

Is a Captain of one division still not over the privates and corporals of another according to the Military Law, or should we stop saluting the various officers that walk by us at the PX? Is a Corporate director not over general office members in a branch office? Perhapse not in Rank, but certainly in Grade. Or am I mistaken about hierarchical systems of the armed forces and business world? A Grandmaster is a Grandmaster. Vvardenfell is of huge political interest to all power players involved, that's why Hlaalu and Redoran are on a brink of a House War, and the Imperials have several forts in the area. BECAUSE THEY DO GIVE A HOOT. I'm sure the enterprising noble would look at the player and say "why waste my time with this person, he's not important."

Thrignar Fraxix wrote: I have described in the OE castle thread an NPC who would say almost exactly that only with more yelling and a demeaning tone.

So then being a KNIGHT OF THE IMPERIAL DRAGON, WHO is a member of the highest orders in all the Empire, is insignificant to the rest of the legion, because every Legion operates on some higher plane like Telvanni. I am sure Jr. Templar is going to look at a Knight of the Imperial Dragon and tell him that he is insignificant. Just like a First Sergent in the Army is going to look at a Lieutenant Colonel/Commander of another Brigade and tell him to fall in and fail to acknowledge him as a superior officer. Yeah, that makes plenty of sense. That first sergeant would be bounced out of the Army so fast his feet wouldn't even hit the ground. In the British Army, during the British Colonial Empire, you were a General, no matter where you went. Didn't matter if you were from a "backcountry bumpkin fest" of an Island, you were part of her majesty's army. In fact, you had MORE respect if you rose through the enlisted ranks first, instead of having your commission granted by the nobility. The Roman Legion, of whom the Imperial Legion is closely modeled off of, had similar policies regarding their higher grade officers.

Your argument is, because Hlaalu holdings on Vvardenfell are "backcountry bumpkins" (even though Vvardenfell IS A PART OF THE COUNTRY OF MORROWIND, NOT A COLONY, opened up for expansion by the Tribunal Temple, and holdings have been present there BEFORE the ban on expansion was lifted) the Hlaalu on the mainland, who funded and oversee their house's expansion on a regular basis, view their provincial holdings as "Insignificant, and what happens there is of no consequence."

Okay...

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:52 pm

people want to play the quests. making them a high level in the faction prevents them from doing this.

at any rate, its been settled. it worked fine in telvannis, so there is no reason to radically change the system.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:59 pm

MMMowSkwoz, nice idea for the EEC, you're right it would be silly constantly used, but it fits well for the EEC, and is fine if used once I think. The messenger should get back just about the time you are ready to be promoted to your actual rank.

Also remember, that you are an OUTLANDER, and on top of that you come from Vvardenfell, bastion of Imperial influence and corruption and just generally chaos. The mainland guys are either not going to believe you or simply think that the situation in Vvardenfell has gotten so desperate, that even someone such as yourself is being looked to for guidance.

Also, TR is expanding onto lore, but I am not sure we can or should expand any further on the Nerevarine's story. Clearly in Oblivion some events take place, but they are either to far in the future or to vague for us to attempt to recreate it. If we did, we risk TR become to much a form of FanFic, introducing a story line that many could disagree with, when as it is now, those events are open to interpretation. We want people to feel like they are exploring the rest of Morrowind, not playing through someone's fantasy of what happens next.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:46 am

Like I said. I think it should vary in its degrees. The Imperial Legion, for instance wholeheartedly accepts that you are a Knight of the Imperial Dragon, you have the Lord's Mail and Chysmerene (SP). And news of something like that should spread fast. I could understand how the Great Houses might react to you being their Grandmaster of their House. Of course, the Argument of you being an outlander didn't stop you from being Grandmaster in the first place.

The way I look at it is this.

Topic: You are the Grandmaster of House Telvanni
Telvanni probably wouldn't care one way or another. Some may seek to subplot you, seeing as how "You keep what you kill" in Telvanni, and your death at their hands would mean that they take your place, but for the most part, Telvanni doesn't really care, and as our friendly neighborhood spymaster put it, "Wizards operate on entirely different planes." So waltzing in as Grandmaster and having almost noone recognize you isn't as absurd as the K.o.t.I.D. walking into Firewatch and having no one recognize you. Other Houses would react according to the relationships that exist between the Great Houses themselves. It could be as simple as a tailored greeting, or a simple disposition modifier.

Topic: You are the Hlaalu Grandmaster
To me, Hlaalu would be open to these things, such as you being an outlander and an imperial pet. They embrace Imperial Occupation and the prosperity it brings. Acknowledgement by name, and your accomplishments should be a general given here. But I do not agree that if you are a Grandmaster of House Hlaalu on one side of the Inner Sea, then you must restart all over again as a Kinsman on the otherside. Logically, this doesn't make sense. Other houses react with according to the House Relations in the game, with Dres downright being disgusted with you, as you are 1: an outlander, 2: an Imperial Pet, and 3: you are a Grandmaster of a House that endorses #1 and #2.

Topic: You are Redoran Grandmaster
This is the interesting one, really. Redoran is considered the Warrior House, having a great deal of respect for capable warriors and skilled fighters. Perhaps at first, people in the House question your ability as a Warrior, involving quests that test your mettle and devotion to the House. Despite your Outlander status, you have the backing of several Native Council members on the Island, and word is sure to spread about you, for good or bad.

Topic: You are the Knight of the Imperial Dragon
You have proven yourself to be one of the most capable Warriors, you have defeated the previous Vvardenfell KotID in an honorable duel and have replaced him. It should be obvious to everyone in His Emperor's Service that you are who you claim you are, and news of you is bound to travel extremely fast, due to the Blades, and other informants in and around Morrowind. I don't know why someone of such high rank and proven capability would be filtered back down into the lowest ranks of the legion without someone above you, IE a member of the Elder Council or the Emperor himself. demanding it. I feel that the player can still carry out the quests, but will have a different reward for being the KotID, as opposed to say, he carried out the quest as a Recruit or Spearman. Like if the reward is a suit of Imperial Armor for an "Enlisted Member" The quest giver should just give him gold or a fancy enchanted weapon for completing the contract. IMO this is actually quite simple and all you would have to do is test to make sure that the PC is not of "thisrank" or higher. Nothing to it, no major rewrites of the quest, just different dialogue paths and rewards.

The other factions are really insignificant to this argument, but I will mention that these "Alternate Reward/Dialogue Paths would be the simplest fix to a simple problem.

For instance, a Figther's guild quest dialogue would go like thisL

Topic; Orders for Players under the rank of Say, Grandmaster, to keep it simple.

"All right %PCFactionRank (I can't recall the script check off the top of my head, nor the ranks) We have a wild Kargoti (SP) ransacking the local populace. Get to it
grunt."

Reward: Well done Grunt, take these 200 Septims for a job well done. I have more orders for you.

Now, for the Grandmaster Rank Dialogue of the same topic

Topic: Orders
"Well, Grandmaster, there is a Kargotai plaguing the local town populace. If you are willing, will you dispatch it?"

Reward: "Thank you Grandmaster, these 200 septims were collected for the contract. The town thanks you for your service. There are more outstanding orders, if you care to review them.

Simple. Tests for if the player is a Grandmaster or not, and then follows the dialogue path accordingly. Every single quest could be rewritten as such. No bending over backwards to tailor new quests, no new quests specifically for the Grandmaster, just a different way of doing things.

Faalen · Post by **Faalen** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:10 am

...

Don't get me wrong, I understand precisely where you're coming from and I like the idea of having the mainland at least partially aware of the goings-on in Vvardenfell, but do you have any idea the massive amount of dialogue that would have to be written or re-written to accommodate your "simple" plan? It ranges certainly in the thousands of lines. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how good of an idea it is or seems to be.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:40 am

Faalen wrote:...

Don't get me wrong, I understand precisely where you're coming from and I like the idea of having the mainland at least partially aware of the goings-on in Vvardenfell, but do you have any idea the massive amount of dialogue that would have to be written or re-written to accommodate your "simple" plan? It ranges certainly in the thousands of lines. It just isn't going to happen, no matter how good of an idea it is or seems to be.

Do you mean to tell me that all 6 maps have all of their dialogue already written? I can take an ease off of this burden, if needs be. As far as I know only MAP 1, has quests written for it, and MAP 2 is in the works. But who am I right?

Faalen · Post by **Faalen** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:47 am

I'm only talking about Map 1. Your system would involve a complete restructure of every line of dialogue included in that release. It would also nearly double the workload for every quester from now through the end of the project if it were implemented from this point forward. True, it's not new quests, but it might as well be. Quests are almost entirely dialogue. Scripts are very much a background role if the quest is well-written. You are, of course, always welcome to mod anything you like for any of TR's maps. It just isn't likely to be integrated in any way.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:20 am

Many of the issues of interactivity between Vvardenfell and the Mainland are going to require bolt-ons to get right, since you can just as well rise in the ranks on the mainland, but will see no difference in quests on Vvardenfell. I don't know who or even if anyone is going to do this, but in the past there have been individuals who said they would, and you and/or anyone else is welcome to do it as you like.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:52 am

I've often thought about what can be done with the relations between Vvardenfell and the mainland, but like everyone else I've pretty much reached the conclusion that in the interest of keeping the workload appropriate and keeping TR and the vanilla game separate, the current system works pretty well (although like Turelio mentioned, the system doesn't really work in reverse. If you come to the mainland factions as a high rank in the Vvradenfell version you're recognised but not at the same rank. But if you're Grandmaster on the mainland nothing happens at all on Vvardenfell. Ah well, nothing to be done)

Personally, if it were up to me I would just make the Vvardenfell and Mainland factions one and the same. You would be considered the same rank anywhere and if you don't like not being able to advance separately on the mainland or doing menial tasks as the Grandmaster of a faction well then tough. It would just mean to be that there were no relations issues between the island and mainland, and you wouldn't have to join the same faction twice (And the more powerful branch of the faction wouldn't have to distinguish itself from the less powerful one with a "Mainland" in front of it)

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:56 am

I also wouldn't mind "Mainland" being replaced. If we must have a distinctions, let's make it a Dunmeri word, at least for the Great Houses. For the Imperial factions it doesn't sound as bad.