(future) Joining Great House Indoril/Dres

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:53 am

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote:I also wouldn't mind "Mainland" being replaced. If we must have a distinctions, let's make it a Dunmeri word, at least for the Great Houses. For the Imperial factions it doesn't sound as bad.

that sounds fine to me. "Mainland" has sense to me if you're in Vvardenfell, (Sicilians alwais say "I'm going to Italy" when they cross the 3 km of the Strait of Messina

) but "mainland" when you're actually in the mainlad doesn't make too much sense. For the faction name is good, but for dialogues could be repplaced with the name of the district ("here in Telvannis", "here in Velothi", ecc.) at least for dunmeri.
Of course if is not an essential topic and doesn't take ages to find and replace in all dunmeri and ready dialogues. If so, nevermind that, I didn't say anything (/me moves the flippers as the Madagascar Penguin...)

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:05 am

The name should be just "House Hlaalu", "Imperial Legion", and so on. But as long as we must maintain the mod, not having a different name hampers our ability to tell whether a record in an ESP is an unclean change of Bethesda's ESM or an okay change of our own stuff.

Also, having mainland NPCs able to react to your achievements is easy to do in some greetings and topics (if you've done the Bloodmoon colony quest that involves [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Seler_Favelnim]Seler Favelnim[/url], you have special dialogue with his relative in Ashamul), but doing it systematically for every quest would be a chore.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:55 am

Sorry to raise the dead here, but Im not quite sure I understand the current ranking system for factions.

I understand entirely what Lady N said about:

Lady Nerevar wrote:people want to play the quests. making them a high level in the faction prevents them from doing this.

And I think thats completly valid point, but what actaully happens in reguards to the mainland factions/houses?, do you get a higher rank than grandmaster? is your rank reset? or is it another faction you join?

Sorry to seem oblivious, I just want to clarify this, Im really quite intreged about how this is currently implimented.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:14 pm

As fas as I know (and all I know is playing a bit MW Map1) you have to join a "new faction", named "Mainlad [Insert faction name here]", but of course if you have a very high rank (as I was guildmaster for both fighters and mages guid on Vvardenfell) you start form a certain rank (If I can recall correctly was the 3/4th rank of the faction, I don't remember).

That's because Vvardenfell is the far-side of nobodycareswhere and it's quite ridicolous you can become arch-boss of a faction doing three or four favor to some councilior/guildmaster in a (even if big) ashy rock as Vvardenfell or beating an "arch-loser" as Trebonius who's going to be fired if you don't kill him in a duel. TR playr with all tamriel, mica cotiche.

And I say I agree.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:52 pm

Your Vvardenfell-branch rank is taken into account to give you a small boost, so if you're a high-ranking member you won't be treated as a junior apprentice underclerk's assistant; but you won't be given the same rank anyway -- otherwise, we'd have simply used the same faction and so doing a dozen of quests in Vvardenfell would have made you overlord of all Morrowind; which posed more issues, lorewise and gameplaywise, than not.

An alternative would have been to keep the same faction, but change its promotion requirements so that you'd have to do a lot of quests on the mainland as well to rise to the top. As far as "seamless integration" goes, that would have been the best, but this approach had the unfortunate implication of having to change a lot of Vanilla things, affecting Vanilla quests and dialogues, and that's something that really is against our policies.

TR is a mod that, if you never cross the Inner Sea, can be completely ignored -- it makes (nearly*) no difference whether you have it or not until you actually go to the mainland. That's why we don't have "advertising leaflet" (like the otherwise excellent White Wolf of the Lokken Mountains mod by Emma and Teutonic) or latest rumors hijacking (like Bethesda's own Bloodmoon expansion or Silgrad Tower), or people waking you up in your sleep to start a quest (like Bethesda's own Tribunal expansion or Wizards' Islands). You do not have any compelling reason to go to the mainland. You go there if you want to.

* By nearly I mean that there actually are a few differences. A very few NPCs have more dialogue options: for example, scouts can tell you about the other Morrowind districts. Some boundary sea cells were changed to replace the "transition to endless ocean" by a "transition to nearby mainland". The Mournhold Gates of Symmachus will no longer be blocked forever. And of course, if you use MGE's distant land options, the landscape is quite different. These changes, however, are designed to be non-intrusive on normal gameplay and shouldn't break any quest.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:03 pm

Alright. well I did actaully boter to open up the TR_Data and look myself, along side of reading what you 2 had to say. It does seem like a pretty good system. although I have to admit, I do sorta agree with TÃƒÂºrelio about changing the 'mainland' thing. I mean if you lived on the mainland and were in a faction you wouldnt call it that. IMO it should be something like that, but not as direct as 'Mainland'.

hmm..

Morrowind Fighters Guild
Grand Fighters Guild
Fighters Guild of Morrowind [ The Island is Vvardenfell, and the mainland is what? Morrowind? or is there a seperate name for that particular province?]
...
...
Grand House Hlaalu?

Grand being the order of soul gems.... greater, grand...idk I was thinking of a pattern here.

Yeah Idk

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:15 pm

RelinQ wrote:[ The Island is Vvardenfell, and the mainland is what? Morrowind? or is there a seperate name for that particular province?]

Vvardenfell is part of the Vvardenfell District (which also includes the minor islands around it such as Solstheim and Sheogorad), which is part of the Morrowind Province, which belongs to the Septim Empire, which spans the entire Tamriel continent, which is on the planet Nirn, which with its immediate (both moons, Mara's tears, Mnemoli, etc.) surrounding forms the Mundus, which is encircled by Oblivion and then by Aetherius, with the whole universe being the Aurbis.

Morrowind is bordered by Skyrim to the West, Black Marsh to the South, and Cyrodiil to the South-West. The other provinces of the Empire are, clockwise, Elsweyr (south of Cyrodiil), Valenwood (south of Cyrodiil, west of Elsweyr), Summerset Isles (south-west off Valenwood's coast), Hammerfell (west of Cyrodiil), and High Rock (north of Hammerfell, west of Skyrim).

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:21 pm

lol okay...

well I knew most of that, except about the minor islands being part of vvardenfell, and the names of the two moons. so thanks anyway.

other than that, what do you think of it being calling 'mainland'?

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:29 pm

RelinQ wrote:
Morrowind Fighters Guild
Grand Fighters Guild

Morrowind fighters guild => Vvardenfell is not Morrowind?
Grand Fighters Guild => Naaah... it's too pompous and such a name should include all empire's fighters guilds to be justified...

I think the problem isn't on the faction name (is a OG note, so Mainland is good), but in dialogues: there are few refereces to "mainland", but said from a "mainland" character and not a vvardenfell one makes me a bit uneasy. Anyway I have to check if there are still there: last time I played map1 was the pre-map2 version...

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:38 pm

RelinQ wrote:lol okay...

well I knew most of that, except about the minor islands being part of vvardenfell, and the names of the two moons. so thanks anyway.

Nah, this was an enumeration. The moons are called Jode and Jone, or Masser and Secunda. Mara's Tears and Mnemoli are smaller, more obscure celestial bodies...

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:40 pm

eitherway you can see what I mean. It is a little odd.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Disallowing altering the vanilla names, there's really nothing to be done for it. "Mainland Whatever" is going to sound just as unfitting as anything else.

For the Houses I suppose you could do something like "Greater House Telvanni" and with the others you could just have something like "Central", "Main" or "First" in front of them, but really anyone's suggestion is as good as mine. The problem is that the lesser branches use the proper name and so that leaves you with little option for distinguishing the main branch.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Darn you bethesda, making our job hard lol..Nah just kidding

,

but about what you just said, I think that "Greater House whatever" isnt a bad idea at all, I quite like that.

It does leave an option open for a higher guild though, which could be a good thing or a bad thing, not sure.

Great House - Current
Greater House - Preposed

Greatest House/Grand House - Future?

[Bah...]

Eitherway Greater could work.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:06 pm

"great houses" are "great houses", not "greater".
And alternate solutions like using the district name ("Telvannis Great House Telvanni" sounds ridiculous

) or the "Main" ("Main Great House Telvanni") or "Central" ("Central Great house telvanni") are redundant and cacophonic.

I think "Mainland FactionName" is as good as others: you explore morrowind mainlan from a vvardenfell point of view because that's where they brought you at te beginning of the game (if you're an outlander that means your not from Morrowind, even if you are a Dunmer: they call you outlander in Mournhold also). I think the worst unfitting is in dialogue topics.

BTW... assuming Vvardenfell is "empire" as the rest of morrowind (and tamriel) teating the Vvardenfell/Mainland faction issue for the Imperial Legion as for the Guilds and Telvanni shouldn't fit... I mean... the legion is everywhere, shouldn't have different career paths... unless (I don't know how if it's so, because as I said before I played only the old version of Map1 and IL was unjoinable) in the mainland you're not joining an elite corp of the imperial legion you can access only if you are KotED... I mean, it's like you are Uriel Septim in Vvardenfell and Orvas Dren in the rest of morrowind...

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:32 pm

the difference between what your saying and what Im saying is that using greater (being an adjective) it gives more emphasis on the faction, whereas giving it a name like telvanis or central (a proper or common noun) doesnt give any emphasis to show which is the more elevated part of the faction. at least 'greater' is on the same playing field as 'great' anyway and shows that one is higher up.

Oh I dont know...., I'll let the admins decided on this, they control everything afterall, but I still think my point above is valid.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:56 pm

Personally I like Greater as it emphasises the branch's increased size, influence and power in general. The use of the word is common in the names of areas around cities but it is also used in the names of companies, organisations or even government bodies (such as the Greater London Authority).

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:59 pm

No, the difference is that "greater" would change the name of the factions from "Great Houses" to "Greater Houses", because if the adjective is part of the faction name, changing the mode of the adjective you change the name. And the in-game books and dialogues tells of "great houses" not "great and greater houses", so this could be read as lore-changing.

This could work only if on vvardenfell would be avaible joining all great houses (so vvardenfell="great", all morrowind="greater"), because Vvardenfell district is a big part of the province and core of the tribunal mystique (home of the living god vivec and the devil dagoth ur, where lay the Kagrenac tools source of the power of the tribunal, and full of pilgrimage sites) so the great houses are great in vvardenfell but the mainland section of the great houses start calling themselves "greater" to distinguish themselves from the mainland ones. But for Dres and Indoril you should use "greater" even if there are not "great" houses Indoril and Dres, or use "great" meaning Indoril and Dres are "smaller" than Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni (which could be, territorially speaking, but not in prestige: you think Indoril house who protects that b***h of Alma is "lesser" than the other?). And using "greater" you should change all in-game books references to "great houses" into "greater houses" = bad

Chin Music wrote:Personally I like Greater as it emphasises the branch's increased size, influence and power in general. The use of the word is common in the names of areas around cities but it is also used in the names of companies, organisations or even government bodies (such as the Greater London Authority).

In "Greater London" is different, because it refers to the part of the city outside the original urban core (the City). You could use "greater morrowind" to say "all morrowind territories which are not vvardenfell" (if vvardenfell was the original core of morrowind settlements). And I think "greater morrowind house telvanni" is quite too long as faction name.

And the Greater London Autority is a Greater London administration, not a London thing with a "Greater" before the name

(this thread is goin' a bit out of track...

)

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:31 pm

"Mainland Great House Telvanni" is still so long it goes off the page of the standard sized character info pane.

And the Greater would refer to the fact that you are part of the organisation which indeed does control all the holdings/incomes/whatever of Great House Telvanni, for all of Morrowind. It's still a Great House, and the Greater is there to still identify it as one while also meaning that it represents the entire faction.

Sure, it's not the most logical setup especially when compared against real life examples, but it sounds and looks better than anything else I can think of while still being clear and obvious as to what it means. That's good enough for me.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:06 pm

"G.M. Great House Whoever" standig for "greater morrowind"? A different ID with a passable compromise which should stay into the box

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:11 pm

Guys, this discussion is going nowhere. We are not taking out or changing the 'Great' in 'Great House'.

That is pretty much irrefutably lore. And anything else would sound lame and 'moddy'.

As it stands, 'Mainland' is the only viable option. Because, remember that this faction is called 'Great House Hlaalu' or whatever. It is not 'Mainland GHH'. That's what the gameplay limits of the 'faction name' setting calls it, not really anyone in-game (yes, they say it, but again, that's gameplay - if we were desperate, we could make it otherwise)

Unless you can come up with something short and sweet, and that doesn't sound ridiculous, this discussion is just getting mildly irritating.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:20 pm

I was beginning to wonder how long it would take the discussion to get shot down. Mildly irritating indeed.

Like I said, your suggestion is as good as mine, and anything with "Great House Telvanni" on the end of it could not realistically be called short and/or sweet.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:38 pm

"Mildly irritating"? And I though somebody would have get the Umbra Sword to put an end it...

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:Because, remember that this faction is called 'Great House Hlaalu' or whatever. It is not 'Mainland GHH'.

That was my point against the "greater" thing.

And, anyway, the "G.M." thing was a joke

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:53 pm

Various district's factions are not required to recognize the ranks of people from outside their boundaries. Normally this isn't an issue, but everyone looks down on vvardenfel. Frankly, the player should be happy about whatever minute bump they get. Vvard houses are subsections of the greater whole. The head of house telvanni on vvardenfel is about equal to a council member on the mainland. Dral is the actual head of house Telvanni. As for Hlallu, it will be handled the same way. Redoran I see being done differently as their actual capital wsa moved to vvard. We will cross that bridge when we come to it though.

Admins don't decide everything btw. The core does with substantial input from the modders.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:53 pm

By "mildly irritating", do you mean to say you don't enjoy it? I think the discussion is amusing at least. It mostly goes nowhere, and I don't see any of the suggestions getting applied to the mod, since they would involve way to much reworking. However, this is fine discussion for future mods of the final TR release.

Also, what Thrignar says about Redoran is pretty interesting. I hadn't thought about the fact they up and moved their HQ to Vvard.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:26 pm

greendogo wrote:By "mildly irritating", do you mean to say you don't enjoy it?

Yes. I don't presume to speak for others.

Primarily, it irritates me because it produces a problem (one which has always annoyed me), proves that it has no solution, and then still proceeds to carry on throwing out rather unhelpful attempts at one.

Anyway, don't mind my grumpiness...

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:35 pm

I agree with Regulus on the point that some faction ranks should be recognised Morrowind-wide, as in pretty much everything that isn't one of the Great Houses.

The Houses can stay separate as far as I'm concerned, as they represent the political side of Morrowind and that prominence in one district doesn't necessarily mean you're the ruler of everything. But on one of the finer points, I also agree that Vvardenfell isn't something which is looked down upon. It's a fairly vital part of Morrowind, rich in resources and several of the Houses were quick to set up shop there. It's an important part of the province, but it is just that, a part. It's not the whole thing, but it's not nothing either.

And I already mentioned my personal opnion before that if the other factions were to remain as one, then advancement would take place on Vvardenfell only, and while quests on the mainland might have rank requirements, you wouldn't advance by doing them. It doesn't make a great deal of sense, but neither does distinguishing the mainland from one of the districts. Such is the price of not intruding on the original game.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:40 pm

Regulus, I agree with you.

As Thrig has said, it's important to remember that "admins don't decide everything", and that if you join up as a quester, you will be in a far better place to implement this than anyone else, and frankly, no one's gonna stop you, unless your work is poor quality, or makes no sense/TR look bad. I think any of those things is unlikely.

What's happened here is a combination of two things:

One, the TR lazy wall. This is only a hobby for all of us, and many of us don't want to have to spend all our lives here to get things released.

There is an inbuilt 'cynicism circuit' that trips whenever a non-modder comes in and starts planning something that they will then ask us to implement (I know that's not the case with you, you've said, but threads like this put most people right into 'cynic mode')

Two, the fact that the thread you've chosen to talk about this has also been subject to some rather unlikely and unhelpful talk (no offense to anyone) on a similar/identical subject has probably rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way, and caused things to get more snarky than they otherwise would be (such as my previous posts, all of which had largely forgotten what you'd been saying, and were directed at the other stuff).

So yeah, overall - join the project, if you wish, and see where it goes from there.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:41 pm

Well as players you always have the option of modifying Map1.

The problem here isn't with TR; it's with Bethesda. When they chopped out the mainland, they also squashed everything into Vvardenfell, which is not realistic AT ALL. If someone were to modify the game for the sake of your argument, then I'd suggest slicing apart the original content.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:48 pm

To be fair I don't think Bethesda could have seen us coming.

Mwgek · Post by **Mwgek** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:34 pm

Chin Music wrote:To be fair I don't think Bethesda could have seen us coming.

LOL! Spot on, haha.

It is a shame that Bethesda didn't make the whole of Morrowind instead of just a piece of it. But well, the choice was easy since it was clear that Vvardenfell was i nice little island where the makers didn't have to bother with barriers and the like. Plus a quiet but annoying dictator in the making housewarming a vulcano..

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:36 pm

Yes, we're far off topic now...

Chin Music wrote:I agree with Regulus on the point that some faction ranks should be recognised Morrowind-wide, as in pretty much everything that isn't one of the Great Houses.

Me too.

Chin Music wrote:But on one of the finer points, I also agree that Vvardenfell isn't something which is looked down upon. It's a fairly vital part of Morrowind, rich in resources and several of the Houses were quick to set up shop there. It's an important part of the province, but it is just that, a part. It's not the whole thing, but it's not nothing either.

As for Vvardenfell itself, I can agree. Is kind a third of the whole kingdom, home of vivec and (almost litterally) heath of the tribunal temple. Which I was saying in a previous post is that a high ranki in a vvardenfell faction
souldn't give you as much privilege in the rest of the world as gives you in Vvardenfell: if you are president of a bank, you are not much than a high-level clerk in another bank of the same group, right? That's how it works in TR so far and i like it.

Chin Music wrote:And I already mentioned my personal opnion before that if the other factions were to remain as one, then advancement would take place on Vvardenfell only, and while quests on the mainland might have rank requirements, you wouldn't advance by doing them. It doesn't make a great deal of sense, but neither does distinguishing the mainland from one of the districts. Such is the price of not intruding on the original game.

I like this idea: as for the bank similitude, you can make job elsewhere but you stay always in that branch of the bank, so they have to promote you there. You are guildmaster in Vvardenfell? Then you have responsabilities over Vvardenfell associates you can't leave them on their own, but you can perform some work elsewhere, for other guildmasters, your pair, volunteering, but you remain vvardenfell guildmaster/councilior/whatever. If you want to join a faction there's only on mainland, you're welcome (or not, it depends), but for advancement or stuff like that, you have always to make reference to the guild branch you signed in, mainland or vvardenfell. That's what you mean? I like it.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:40 pm

Regulus wrote:I've said it five times now, and it has been reinforced unintentionally by various members, that the acceptance of the player and his standing with a Faction on Vvardenfell should be dependent on the faction involved. For Telvanni, it might be ok to start the PC at a medium high to high rank in the Mainland, due to his standings with the Vvardenfell "Branch." Some things need to be reworked I suppose, but I have not seen the Main Quest for Map 1. And no, most characters will complain about the fact that their grandmastership doesn't even get them a free meal at the local tavern in Necrom, sorry, human mentality doesn't work like that. People will likely complain, and logically it doesn't make sense. I don't see it anywhere in the game that states that Mainland Morrowind looks down upon Vvardenfell, the home of Vivec, and his sacred city, and the place where significant battles took place.

The Imperial factions in Map 1 should be a concern if there are indeed legion quests, as the PC is undisputedly a KOTID, and that is a Tamriel wide recognized Order of Knights within the legion. And really, the same should go for the Imperial Cult, Fighter's Guild, and Mage's Guild, all being chartered by the Empire. The empire, and double for a military faction, would do these things that have been described countless times.

We still have a chance to make sure House Hlaalu doesn't behave this way, and yes, it will add a bigger workload, but it will make the fiction seem real overall. THEN there is the reverse side of what happens when you are GM of mainland and not even in the normal great house in Vvardenfell, and these issues must be addressed, because if we don't address them, someone else will.

At the core, the Vv-branch/Ml-branch issue is handled by a simple dialogue script that advances you automatically by a certain number of rnaks. There's no real reason for it to behave very differently depending on the faction; all you require to adapt is different text for the spoken part -- the NPC can be condescending, flattering, surprised, apologizing for the inconvenience, etc. The gameplay result doesn't need to be different.

Being grandmaster doesn't give you a free meal in any tavern throughout Vvardenfell, so I don't see where the problem is.

As for the reverse scenario, I thought it was handled already too, with the same formula -- you automatically get a fraction of your rank in the other branch.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:28 pm

Yes, but think of that:
You are Knight of the Imperial legion in Vv and you become a Champion in Mainland.
You are Primate at the imperial cult in Vv and you become a Disciple in mainland (*)
That's like saiyng you are the Pope in Vatican but in Milan you are a Priest. Or most likely you are Bishop of Canterbury but not much of a Deacon in Rome.

I'm not telling you it must be re-done all the thing, but that it doesn't completely fit.

And giving, as (i guess**) Chin suggested, the possibility to do faction quest if you are in Vvardenfell branch but no advancement unless you go to your branch, should fit a bit more.

(*) I never join imperial cult, nor in vvardenfell nor in mainland, so I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but the concept remains. As for the legion, in map 1 was not joinable, so I don't know either.

(**) not because Chin wasn't clear, but at 21.27 I'm not 100% sure of my English

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:35 pm

But if you consider it another way, if one general visits another part of the army he isn't really a general anymore. Sure, people respect his position, (which would be done with dialogue), but in reality can't he usurp the local general's power. If the player is the Knight of the Imperial Dragon in Vvardenfell he can hardly expect the mainland knight to just say "oh, ok" and hand over the reigns. In my opinion TR's current system is perfect. The player is recognized, but current members aren't booted out of their position when he pops in.

Edit: so to clarify, Morrowind factions are more like the feudal arrangement that was going on in Europe during the middle ages. A count had a countship, and he had all the powers a count would be expected to have there. If he visited another count, he'd have no influence, though he'd be treated with respect. (Most of the time). He could, however, become a count there, too, if he knows what he's doing.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:53 pm

Gnomey wrote:But if you consider it another way, if one general visits another part of the army he isn't really a general anymore. Sure, people respect his position, (which would be done with dialogue), but in reality can't he usurp the local general's power. If the player is the Knight of the Imperial Dragon in Vvardenfell he can hardly expect the mainland knight to just say "oh, ok" and hand over the reigns. In my opinion TR's current system is perfect. The player is recognized, but current members aren't booted out of their position when he pops in.

In which country? Of course a U.S. General in Italy isn't a general anymore. But we are talking of the same kingdom of the same empire, and not another branch of the army (as navy and marines). Of course, if you are allocated in (boh) NYC station, you don't have power in the L.A. one, but the rank of KotID doesn't give you the privilege (uness you have a mod) to command the legionaries of Vvardenfell, so you coldn't do it in other places of the the mainland.
Should be more fitting if you are recognised as Vvardenfell's KotID and respected for that and maybe you can do something to aid your pair in Whatevermoth Legion Fort, but you remain a KotID. It's not like you have become the emperor (which is one and only in all Tamriel), but you share your rank with countless others.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:56 pm

Aiwyn the Breton wrote:That's like saiyng you are the Pope in Vatican but in Milan you are a Priest. Or most likely you are Bishop of Canterbury but not much of a Deacon in Rome.

The Church of England is fully independent from the Vatican, so your status in the Bishopric of Canterbury has absolutely no bearing to yours in the See of Rome.

Anyway, as Gnomey said.

There are only three possible solutions to the issue:

1. We completely overhaul the faction questlines in Bethesda's game so that they're now just a part of a greater questline involving both the mainland and Vvardenfell.

2. We do not have any factional questline at all, except for the factions that are found only on the mainland (Indoril, Dres, Imperial Archaeological Society, and the Daedric Cults). If you want to become head of the Imperial Legion, do the quests on Vvardenfell; every mainland Legion Fort will be like Pelagiad: a place without questgivers. If you want to become head of the Mages Guild, do it on Vvardenfell; every mainland guild hall will be like Caldera: a place without questgivers. If you want to become head of Great House Redoran, do it on Vvardenfell; every mainland Redoran city will be like Maar Gan: a place without questgivers. And so on.

3. We do what we're doing. This way, we don't compromise our principle of not modifying vanilla stuff unless really necessary, and we still offer a good quantity of nice new content that makes the mod interesting to play.

If you wish we used #1 or #2 instead, sorry, you'll have to mod that yourself. We're already committed to #3 and there is no good enough reason to change course now.

Regulus · Post by **Regulus** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:28 pm

Well, that's where Rank and Grade come into play.
Rank: This is your position of authority, like a Commander of a base, or a Platoon leader, or what have you. It does not incompass your actual GRADE

Grade: Pretty much, your Pay-Grade, this is your standard Private, PFC, etc. Lieutenat, Captain, General, etc. For instance, multiple people on a military base may have the Grade of Lieutenant Colonel, but only one is the base commander? Get it? You can make multiple grades, as in Multiple Knights of the Imperial Dragon, but a base commander has an authority over someone who comes in. Even though this is true, Military law states that a General is to be repected (ie saluted, greeted, etc) where ever, but the one who holds the title of base commander has authority over the base. That being said, a General is usually put in a position of authority over all Lieutenat Colonels, so, A general may be a Brigade Commander, and all of the Divisions under him are headed by Lt. Colonels. Get me?

SO, what I am saying is. If you are a Knight of the Imperial Dragon in the Vvardenfell district of Morrowind, That means that all legions in Vvardenfell are under your command. That does not mean that you go over to the main land and start pushing authority over on everyone else because there would be a Knight of the Imperial Dragon in the Morrowind Mainland as well, who, would also be commander of the legions there. I think that a simple solution would be to where that you can advance in Vvardenfells legion quests, or advance in the Mainland's Legion quest, but you cannot be commander for both. OR you can appoint an Imperial Dragon to reside over your post at Vvardenfell, but this would require that we mod the island and is out of the question.

Food for thought. I suppose. As far as this whole Greater House XYZ, and this topic in general, I think that 1: We should start a more organized topic listing all of the ideas in this thread, and 2: Hit the imperial library and see about what lore is already established for this subject matter. And then, when we are all educated and on the same accord, we put our best foot forward.

In my opinion, there would be a Grand council for every house, much like the council of bugs, and an assembly area for each house. Obviously the Grandmaster of Vvardenfell, being a representative of his house, would have a spot on this council. Again though, the previous statements are my own ideas and have no lore to back them up. But it is a suggestion that we could do to proceed forward. I'll hit the books and see about it.

But Chin Music and Hemitheon are right, and Bethesda was pressed for time and was forced to compress all of House Hlaalu into Morrowind. I have said this myself but it has been misinterpreted by some few here. That is the unfortunate thing about a for profit game. Anyway, there are my thoughts on the subject.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:02 am

Regulus wrote:I think that ... We should start a more organized topic listing all of the ideas in this thread

no, because none of the ideas here matter as our system works fine and, from a game play standpoint, has the best cost benefit ratio (and makes good enough sense to boot) We aren't not changing anything out of laziness, we have things like this because it doesn't limit gameplay at all, and still allows for the fun of leveling up in a faction.