Velothi Hating, AKA The Velothi Manifesto

[Hemitheon]

Ok I've recently noticed in Map3 detailing the rounding up of Velothi interiors/exteriors and relocating them to the TRASH/RECYCLE BIN. So I've decided to rant/complain and argue why TR is making a MASSIVE mistake.

First off, House Indoril is based on virtues: honor, tradition, and the ancestors. Yet would it make any sense for House Indoril to go through its domain, tear down Velothi buildings that have possibly stood since before the War of the First Council and say, "Hey. It's not aesthetically pleasing." That, of course, is ridiculous. If anything, the absence of Velothi architecture in Map3 (and I don't mean BS domes and ancestral tombs (sure relegate them to necromancers and family tombs)) would be contrary to Indoril's own cherishing of Chimer/Dunmer culture. So far, Sailen Vulgate and now Othrenis are to be stripped of Velothi buildings. Temples will no longer be the vanilla approved velothi version, but an Indoril structure. Does TR plan to kill off all Velothi temples in Redoran District and replace them with Red bugshells? Will Hlaalu temples be stripped and replaced with Lucky Lockup exteriors? Of course not. The most pious and devout House in all of Morrowind, however, has decided to X out all Velothi. Am I the only one to see the huge flaw here?

One argument was that it looked horrendous to see the blue-green Indoril architecture next to the sandstone-colored Velothi. First off, let me just say that to you, it may be ugly or unpleasing, but to a traditional Dunmer, it would be beautiful. An Indoril councilor who set up shop in Othrenis would only destroy the Velothi buildings if he didn't give a damn. But if he didn't give a damn, then chances are he wouldn't be a councilor.

One prospect would be to cart the Velothi ints off to Map4/5/6. Im sure the Velothi pogrom won't end here. Likewise, I doubt they would survive. TR's usual unorganization almost lost around 20 Necrom interiors which I personally dug out. Why? Because modders work should never be thrown away. Those interiors represent someone's devotion to this organization and to throw out one's work would be a poor way to repay for sacrifice of time, effort, and energy.

Possible options:

Farms? That'll work for a few interiors.

Velothi towns? So far there are ZERO Velothi towns but there could be. If you put all the Velothi ints together, that's 1 city, most of which would be coming from Othrenis. Othrenis was a Velothi city with a few Indoril buildings (if anything it was the indoril exts. to go) yet now it's being revised.

Use in future maps? If it can be GUARANTEED that our modders' work won't be thrown away and that those interiors would be implemented as soon as possible for the sake of not forgetting them, then I guess that's not so bad. But that still doesn't answer the absence in Map3.

[Lady Nerevar]

i, personally, love velothi. i think it makes sense to have it in map3 (oldest part of morrowind), just because its indoril territory doesnt mean that everything has to be indoril.

[Gez]

So there are two cities, Sailen and Othrenis, that are mixed Velothi/Indoril. The solution would be obvious: take all the Velothi buildings from one and put them in the other, which itself gives all its Indoril buildings in exchange.

[Hemitheon]

I like the idea. Problem is that the Indoril portion of Othrenis was originally meant to be manor district. So all Indoril interiors moving to Sailen V. would be wealthy. And so far Sailen V is nothing but wealthy Indoril interiors, so I am aware. But I do like the idea. Another issue is that both cities have councilors. That means that Othrenis' councilor would either live in a Velothi manor, OR he would have a solitary Indoril fortress, which technically doesn't even have to be within the city limits. Which I think would be cool. Look at Telvanni towers. They are never within the city they control, ex. Tel Aranyon and Ranyon-Ruhn.

[Aeven]

Indeed the banishing of all things Velothi is a bit worrying.

Some cities should be pure Velothi, but any mixed cities must be older with new upper class Mournhold-style buildings.

I am still convinced that lower class Indoril don't live in Mournhold-style homes, but something that is either Velothi or very similar.

[Hemitheon]

And this doesn't even answer the problem of Indoril style. The MH set is NOT the Indoril set. No Indoril set exists. So somewhere in dialogue, we'll have to explain that House Indoril has upgraded all buildings to match up with the city of Almalexia, possibly to reinforce House Indoril's unity or something. The true Indoril set does NOT exist.

[When Map3 is completed I plan to replace all non-Mournhold Indoril structures with a separate style that matches OM more closely. Majra created the beginnings of an ext. set for Dun Akafel which was never utilized. If anything, they are the closest thing we have to a true Indoril set]

In my opinion, Map3 could be the summit of TR's years of work. In one place will exist Almalexia in her fullest glory as well as Necrom, a city fit for the Gods. Yet to totally eliminate connections to Indoril and Dunmer past would be heinously wrong.

[Aeven]

What happened to that set, and where can it be seen? I can imagine the city of Almalexia using the Mournhold style, but it does seem strange for all of the Indoril district to be so lavish. But replacing, wouldn't that require MAJOR reworking? If it happens, surely in 2.0?

[Gnomey]

I think in this case it's certainly too late to throw in a third set, nice as that would be. That's a pity, though, because Lore-wise House Indoril is completely up the pole, as far as I can see: despite probably being the second poorest house, they're able to replace almost all of their structures with rather expensive looking tile-roofed buildings.

Even if, as someone suggested, the buildings were sunken into the ground or otherwise made smaller it would be like a poor person living in a finely crafted stone hut with marble tiles and edging complete with intricate carvings and the occasional iron decorations. I don't see how either the House or the population would reasonably be able to finance that, or why either of them would think that that was a good way to use their money.

But that's life, and at least it looks nice...

Returning to the main topic, though, I agree with Hemi.

[Hemitheon]

[Not to toot my own horn but if you want to see something remotely like Indoril, download i1-72-tel and look at the rooms or the inner courtyard. It goes to show you just how much can be done with the OM ruin set]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

So somewhere in dialogue, we'll have to explain that House Indoril has upgraded all buildings to match up with the city of Almalexia, possibly to reinforce House Indoril's unity or something. The true Indoril set does NOT exist.

I don't think that's necessary. It seems fairly 'obvious' to anyone who doesn't think about it too hard that the Indoril set is the one used in Mournhold. After all, you've only just realised the 'truth' yourself in the last few weeks. Dialogue would just draw unneccessary attention to the incongruency.

When Map3 is completed I plan to replace all non-Mournhold Indoril structures with a separate style that matches OM more closely.

Would be good, but after Map 3? Not only is that a pretty collossal waste of time, when you could be crafting beautiful interiors for Maps 4 5 6, but also it seems like that would just lead to a pointless and pretty shabby/horrendous/attrocious etc. re-release, that would make it look like TR can't do anything without being half-baked, and would re-write the entire previous release, rendering it worthless. It would be almost like re-releasing Map 1, deciding that it had become the homeland of House Redoran, not Telvanni. It would just be confusing (not to mention beg infinite bugs to strike).

If you have the time/skill to make an architecture set, I'd say sooner is far better than later. Maybe others disagree? I don't know.

[MMMowSkwoz]

When, realistically, is the soonest release date for Map 3? Early 2010? If someone feels they can do all the replacement work in that time, that would be amazing. However, I suspect it's probably a little too late. I'd be interested in seeing that half-made exterior set though.

If I had a map like the labelled ones Hemi made for Maps 1 and 2, it would make it so much easier to visualise everything. I use those maps all the time.

[Hemitheon]

http://www.geocities.com/tr_majra/dunak.html

I contacted Majra about sending me his exteriors so I could experiment with them and possibly create interior shells for them without using in_OM. Mind you, they aren't entirely perfect and I would prefer models that could overlap MH exteriors, they are at least a start.

What's crazy is that we have spent YEARS talking about the Dres set when Indoril needed one as well. If I can gather enough people to work on the restoration of Map3 after it's completion, then so be it. I'll post about it at the Forums at a later date.

I'd suggest continuing as is. Within the next few months/years, a set could be created from in_OM and OM set which could fit perfectly over MH exteriors--which was the plan of action for the Dres set.

[Lady Nerevar]

i really dont see the problem with the indoril set. it may not be perfect but its there, the dres have no set and therefore take priority. same goes for the hammerfell sets. the mournhold set works and there is no lore to say that it aint an indoril wide set. additionally, it would look awkward if the indoril were the only house with multiple sets. and majra's doesnt fit in morrowind at all.

in other words, it gets a "no" from me. theres better stuff to be done than modding away non-existent incongruities.

[Hemitheon]

Majra's set is based entirely on the OM set. How could it not fit? Sure that last ext. needs drastic work, but with some tweaking here and there it could work.

EDIT: What if we threw a couple DB houses here and there? As farms? They are true Indoril, not designed by Seht.

EDIT2: The Indoril set doesn't matter for now. What's important is a Velothi presence in Map3

[aro101]

With all respect for Marja's work, you can go a lot further and faster by starting over from scratch - if you want to make a set that is of any practical use and acceptable quality.

Think of Necrom. The base for the current city and the interior was completely new. What has stayed the same are the textures.




BAH

All that talk makes me feel sentimental and I wish I would come back to TR and do tons of meshes.

[Hemitheon]

Well in regards to the Indo set, we have time: years worth of time.

[Haplo]

We have a set of architecture for House Indoril, it's that green set everyone's been using since Tribunal came out. Majra's models you linked to look like they would fit better into Hammerfell than anywhere in Morrowind. What the hell is Othrenis? We also don't have years worth of time to make an entire new architecture set. This is not 2004, this is 2009. We have designed Morrowind so that 99% of House Indoril is in Map 3, the map that is currently being finalized in regards to exteriors and interiors. Designing, creating, and implementing an entire new architecture set for a map that is almost done takes years we don't have. I don't want to tell people "we finished Map 3 like 4 years ago but someone wanted to change every building so you have to wait"

Anyway, apparently there are only two areas where we are 'removing' Velothi structures. Sailen and this other town Othrenis which I still don't know anything about. Sailen had like two buildings removed IIRC. If it's that big a deal just do what Gez said and put them all somewhere and be like this is an old and traditional Velothi town. Done.

[Hemitheon]

Sailen Vulgate: 7 Velothi, 5 MH

Gah Ruhn(Othrenis/Othrensis?): 25 Velothi, 15 MH

Ergo, both are predominantly Velothi, meaning they should be Velothi towns. The MH are the interlopers. If anything, Gah Ruhn should be made entirely Velothi, and Sailen Vulgate could keep the MH as suggested by Gez. That would fix this first problem.

[Haplo]

I agree, Gah Ruhn looks ugly with MH implementation.

[gro-Dhal]

First off, House Indoril is based on virtues: honor, tradition, and the ancestors. Yet would it make any sense for House Indoril to go through its domain, tear down Velothi buildings that have possibly stood since before the War of the First Council and say, "Hey. It's not aesthetically pleasing." That, of course, is ridiculous. If anything, the absence of Velothi architecture in Map3 (and I don't mean BS domes and ancestral tombs (sure relegate them to necromancers and family tombs)) would be contrary to Indoril's own cherishing of Chimer/Dunmer culture.

That doesn't necessarily follow.

[Chin Music]

A new set simply wouldn't be worth the time. There's nothing wrong with the Mournhold set and it's certainly not "incorrect" enough to warrant the creation of an entire set for Old Mournhold, regardless of how strongly the individual feels.

It's not like there's anything directly standing in our way of using the Mournhold set and just calling it Indoril. Who knows what Indoril really looks like anyway? There's nothing obvious to my knowledge in any of the lore which would suggest than Indoril is distinctly different from Mournhold, and in fact it seems like that entire "problem" was just brought up by someone mentioning offhandedly "Oh well Mournhold isn't actually the real set anyway". No one anywhere ever, is going to look at the Mournhold buildings in other settlements and suddenly be outraged because of how badly it's misrepresenting Indoril.

(As for concerns of the Mournhold set being too luxurious for ordinary settlements, there's no telling how old the set really is. Sure, they've retained the style, but that doesn't mean it's recent. The build up of the settlements in that style could have been done over dozens of years, and when Indoril was still (still is?) the wealthiest House. Hell, you could even argue that the settlements were built after the Mournhold style had been adopted, since Mournhold/Almalexia would have been the first city to use it. Although it is a bit of a stretch to say that there were no other cities until Mournhold changed style, but who knows just how far underground the old city is? It could be the same with settlements.)

Sure, we could have a new set, but why go to all the trouble when there's a perfectly good set right here? Quality of the final product might be the concern, but quality control is in place. The leaders of the project seem to know what they are doing and the decision to use Mournhold stuff was a conscious one. Even with regard to any alternatives and a need for quality, this was the decision that was made and I see no point in disputing it.

As for Velothi buildings, as far as I know there's really no reason to not keep them in Map 3, so I'd reckon put them where they fit in and remove them where they don't. If that means making one town all Velothi and one town all Indoril then so be it. Probably better that way anyway.

[Gez]

Who knows what Indoril really looks like anyway? There's nothing obvious to my knowledge in any of the lore which would suggest than Indoril is distinctly different from Mournhold

Have you ever been to Old Mournhold?

I don't have a problem using the (New) Mournhold set for Indoril everywhere. After all, it's a game with limited resources and a limited scale; some abstractions must be made. I put using the Mournhold set for all Indoril on the same level as everybody having the same body (no variation in size and bulk within a same race), a total lack of toilets (despite the presence of sewers in some places) and many other oddities.