The Unofficial Indoril and Dres Discussion

[Black Cat]

Hey TR! I have opened this thread so that we all may discuss House Indoril, House Dres, and what we expect for them. If you would like to discuss other factions start your own thread.

Beginning with Dres, I would like to see lots of emphasis on the slave trade. Capturing slaves, selling slaves, hunting escaped slaves. I would also like to see quests where you go and assert House Dres' authority over the people. Like displaying your might by executing resistance leaders and starving rebellious citizenry by withholding food. Tell what you think.

[Akul]

There are dosens of treads like this and many of them discuss Indorils and Dres in detail.

[Black Cat]

Send me some links then.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Akul sees 3 threads about dres and indoril on the first page of the lore and quest forums. 1 has devolved into unfriendliness and was where this thread began, the second was a thread about house colors that got locked a while ago, and then there is this one. Going back 5 pages I see no others.

This thread is fine

[Black Cat]

Thnak you Thrignar! Let us start again.

Beginning with Dres, I would like to see lots of emphasis on the slave trade. Capturing slaves, selling slaves, hunting escaped slaves. I would also like to see quests where you go and assert House Dres' authority over the people. Like displaying your might by executing resistance leaders and starving rebellious citizenry by withholding food. I also have some ideas for the stronghold. I would like to see a plantation/stronghold combination (never uber, of course) with maybe a few rows of crops and some slaves to work them. Which would be somewhat similar to House Hlaalu's eggmine, except closer to your actual residence. I suppose you'd have a small slave shack, and maybe a guard or two watch them. Hmmm...I wonder what Dres architecture and armor will look like. No matter, on to Indoril!

For House Indoril, there should be many "let us regain our might quests" to give the sense House Indoril though still powerful, is slowly slipping away, and that he/she has to help save it. I would also enjoy doing a few "kill the heretic/dissident/necromancer/vampire quests. Now Indoril at least hates outlanders as much as Dres, if not more, and so would also be doing a lot to prove your worth and loyalty, like maybe joining the Ordinators or The Temple. As for the stronghold I am told that is already finished, though I hope it has a shrine!

[Zalzidrax]

As far as Dres goes, I definitely think their cities should be very fortified and very forbidding. Slave pens and poor dunmer slums surrounding walled citadels that are opulently furnished on the inside. Remember that in real-world slavery life sucked for all but the rich people because the poor white people who weren't slaves didn't have many jobs to do on account of it usually being cheaper to buy someone to do it. So there should be a big underclass. One whose only hope of getting out of their shack is to join the Dres military or slaver expeditions, or to go off and join the temple.

The few areas that cater to outsiders and trade should project a different view to foreign traders, though. Perhaps a walled enclave with a number of ins and shops, unusually well decorated to distract the eyes from seeing the misery that is just beyond the walls.

[Black Cat]

The few areas that cater to outsiders and trade should project a different view to foreign traders, though. Perhaps a walled enclave with a number of inns and shops, unusually well decorated to distract the eyes from seeing the misery that is just beyond the walls.

Very creative indeed, really conveys the sort of feeling I get from House Dres.

As far as Dres goes, I definitely think their cities should be very fortified and very forbidding. Slave pens and poor dunmer slums surrounding walled citadels that are opulently furnished on the inside. Remember that in real-world slavery life sucked for all but the rich people because the poor white people who weren't slaves didn't have many jobs to do on account of it usually being cheaper to buy someone to do it. So there should be a big underclass. One whose only hope of getting out of their shack is to join the Dres military or slaver expeditions, or to go off and join the temple.

Also good ideas, as there would be a huge underclass. But let us not forget, depending on the quality of the slaves
they weren't always unaffordable for the middle class. Yes the majority of the population would be split between rich/poor but in a realistic sense there would be a middle ground. Of course, having just rich/poor would better get the point across.

A side question: Who is currently heading House Dres?

[Haplo]

The Grand Magnate.
See: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19540

For more information on House Dres, see these threads:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20368
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20324
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=9352

And House Indoril:
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=9365
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=10380
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18373

Anything else you may find is over two years old and is probably outdated.

[Black Cat]

Wow. Thanks Haplo! Useful information, but I think this thread should continue.

[Gez]

Thnak you Thrignar! Let us start again.

Beginning with Dres, I would like to see lots of emphasis on the slave trade. Capturing slaves, selling slaves, hunting escaped slaves.

Capturing slaves might be left out, because they send raiding parties in Black Marsh and Elsweyr for that, and obviously we're not going to create a couple of provinces, even partially, just for a couple of faction missions.

Buying and selling slaves, and hunting down maroon slaves, those are definitely in, though.

[Hemitheon]

Maroon slaves? For the love of God, no. House Dres' slave situation wasn't modeled after European slavery, i.e. the American South, British Jamaica, and French Saint-Domingue. Next thing you know this thread will bring in mulattos and quadroons.

[Yeti]

Since we're talking about House Indoril and Dres, I want to ask if there are any races/factions that will stop you from joining these houses if you are that race/faction. I only ask because I read in an old thread that this might be the cause.

[Black Cat]

Capturing slaves might be left out, because they send raiding parties in Black Marsh and Elsweyr for that, and obviously we're not going to create a couple of provinces, even partially, just for a couple of faction missions.

I had given that consideration, but I thought I'd say it anyway. Maybe we could make a few beast NPCs in some city, and you could be tasked to kidnap them and sell them into slavery! That is doable, and I'm certain House Dres wouldn't be above if current raids weren't proving as fruitful.

Since we're talking about House Indoril and Dres, I want to ask if there are any races/factions that will stop you from joining these houses if you are that race/faction. I only ask because I read in an old thread that this might be the cause.

I wouldn't be the man to know, we'll wait for someone a bit more knowledgeable to come along.

[Gez]

Since we're talking about House Indoril and Dres, I want to ask if there are any races/factions that will stop you from joining these houses if you are that race/faction. I only ask because I read in an old thread that this might be the cause.

No. Well, most likely no. Personally, I am against the idea of making race- or class-specific factions, as it would fundamentally contradict Morrowind's core gameplay philosophies.

I had given that consideration, but I thought I'd say it anyway. Maybe we could make a few beast NPCs in some city, and you could be tasked to kidnap them and sell them into slavery! That is doable, and I'm certain House Dres wouldn't be above if current raids weren't proving as fruitful.

It's one thing to conduct a raid in a disorganized third-world country that is simply not civilized enough to react meaningfully, it's another to conduct said raid in a rival House's territory.

Any free beastfolk living in Dres territory would obviously have a good reason to remain free -- don't ask me which good reason, I can't find any, but I also can't find any good reason for them to be there without some form of guarantee or protection.

[Hemitheon]

if a master freed his slaves, House Dres would have no right to return them to slavery. That would contravene the master's rights over his slaves. So if a master freed his household upon his death, then freed slaves would exist. OR... perhaps the nemer pay to live in Dres territory, kinda like hospitality papers, but in this case, they need papers to build a home, rent an apt, work for wages, everything. I wouldn't imagine there would be many free nemer in Dres territory.

[Black Cat]

It's one thing to conduct a raid in a disorganized third-world country that is simply not civilized enough to react meaningfully, it's another to conduct said raid in a rival House's territory.

People get taken off the streets of New York and Boston all the damn time. Smuggling a few Argonians out of a poor neighborhood would be pretty easy. Who would notice? Here one day, gone the next. I'm not talking about a raid where everyone rushes in with swords unsheathed and screaming battle cries. I'm talking about a kidnapping, sneaking into their house at night, threatening them with violence, and then hauling them off. This wouldn't a productive method on a large scale, but if it was a few for your stronghold or something of a smaller nature it would be a good quest.

[Zackg]

conduct said raid in a rival House's territory.

Smuggling a few Argonians out of a poor neighborhood would be pretty easy. I'm talking about a kidnapping, sneaking into their house at night, threatening them with violence, and then hauling them off.

I personally think that that sounds like a lot of fun, and it could be a fairly deep quest, not just your go here, kill this generic quest. I really like that set-up.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Hemi - too liberal for the dres, if they see beast races the argonians and khajiit had better be wealthy, or stay out of the shadows. I don't think there is a self respecting dres landowner who wouldn't waylay a single argonian and make him a slave if he thought he could get away with it. It'd be for them if they saw a stray cow. Sure if the police find you taking a stray cow they will ream your ass, but if you can get it home and branded no one will be any wiser. (hell, who would guards believe, dres landowner or a naked slave who obviously wants to get out?)

Also, I have always felt non-dunmer shouldn't be able to go beyond a certain rank in house dres. Indoril I don't think would care. BTW, at this point the indoril are the most powerful with the hlallu close behind and pretty much everyone else way back. None of the OB shit has happened yet, and they have recovered from the mass suicides.

[Black Cat]

Also, I have always felt non-dunmer shouldn't be able to go beyond a certain rank in house dres.

That is the most lore-friendly option without a doubt, but it has some cons.

1. Lots and lots of people would be pissed at us.
2.Its not cool to limit the amount of quests someone can do.

Here is a possible compromise: Only disallow beast races and imperials. I don't think anyone plays them anyway.

I personally think that that sounds like a lot of fun, and it could be a fairly deep quest, not just your go here, kill this generic quest. I really like that set-up.

Thanks man.

[Hemitheon]

The big problem with House Dres is that they dislike all outlanders in general. The player is an outlander. An easier option would be that the player bribes his way into House Dres. Pay Lord X for a vote here, do a dirt errand for Lord Z here... The price would vary for race. 1500 for a Dunmer player, 5000 for an Argonian player.

[Black Cat]

That is actually a pretty good solution.

[Haplo]

Next thing you know this thread will bring in mulattos and quadroons.

I think it's pretty unfair to suggest that, seeing as mulattos and quadroons are terms for babies of one race with mixed heritage (ie black and white) and altogether human. And I think you know that argument is ridiculous, too.

Also, if a slave is freed, there's a big chance the slave will be re-captured again unless they scram from the slaveholder's territory. It happens all the time.

Also, I have always felt non-dunmer shouldn't be able to go beyond a certain rank in house dres. Indoril I don't think would care. BTW, at this point the indoril are the most powerful with the hlallu close behind and pretty much everyone else way back. None of the OB shit has happened yet, and they have recovered from the mass suicides.

Hlaalu is the most powerful. Also, Hlaalu still only has two Ls, and it still has two As.

[Black Cat]

Hlaalu still only has two Ls, and it still has two As.

Lol.

About about my kidnapping quest idea, I still can't help but view it as something you would do as one of your stronghold quests. Buying them would just be too simple. Maybe you take them out of the nearest rival city to your stronghold, as both a practical obtainment of slaves and a blow to one of the other houses (probably those civil rights loving Hlaalu). You could get sent there, and begin asking about argonian/khajits who maybe live alone in poorer areas. You could tempt them with gold or possibly convince them through persuasion to follow you into a back alley or secluded area. Then you could punch them around a little and force them to equip slave bracers. Once their will is broken you lead them back to your stronghold to work in your fields. This would probably only be used to get one slave. Perhaps you need three and the slave trader only has two to spare, so you get sent on this quest. Its a fun little quest that I think really makes you "feel like a Dres". Perhaps when I get promoted for quests I'll get to make it myself someday. What do you think everbody?

[Gez]

Also, I have always felt non-dunmer shouldn't be able to go beyond a certain rank in house dres.

This is absolutely true and is already the case. In fact, non-Dunmer, as well as Dunmer born outside of Dres territory, probably can't even join the House at all.

However, this rule applies to NPCs. The PC is an exception.

(probably those civil rights loving Hlaalu)

Generalizing Ilmeni Dren's sensibilities to all Hlaalus makes about as much sense as generalizing Orvas Dren's sensibilities to all Hlaalus.

The Hlaalu, as a whole, do use slaves a lot, in their mines and plantations. There's a slave market in Suran. In fact, the only Vvardenfell Great House that doesn't seem to use slaves is Redoran.

[gro-Dhal]

The big problem with House Dres is that they dislike all outlanders in general. The player is an outlander.

IRL racists/xenophobes will invariably make exceptions when it suits them to do so. It's perfectly possible to hold generalised prejudices against a group of people while getting on perfectly well with individuals of that group or even respecting them.

None of the OB shit has happened yet, and they have recovered from the mass suicides.

The mass suicide might have done the house some good, actually. Clearing out the more conservative members of the establishment and giving the younger generation a shot at power.

[Aeven]

Hmm, people are suggesting various racial prejudice, but how would we then handle custom races? Some races are in fact mixed (Westly has made quite a few mixed races) and some have no TES lore altogether. How would that be handled?

[Gez]

Hmm, people are suggesting various racial prejudice, but how would we then handle custom races?

We wouldn't.


Simple as that. If someone wants to play a skeleton, a giant ant, a moggle, or whatever else, more power to them! This doesn't concern us in any way.

[Aeven]

What I mean is we should have some catch-all dialogue. I already see what kind of complaints we'd get. Vanilla Morrowind also has catch-all dialogue.

[Gez]

Oblivion didn't.

The thing is that I'm personally opposed to restricting what the player can and can't do. By all means, put some different dialog for joining filtered by whether the player character is a Dunmer or not. And maybe specific dialog for Khajiit and Argonian characters. No problem. Everything else (including vanilla men and mer races) get the default.

But people who want to play a Half-Dremora or a Goblin already know that they won't get any dialog custom-tailored to their wacky race anywhere in the game, because nothing in the game was written with their Tralalablahmer character's race in mind.

[Black Cat]

(probably those civil rights loving Hlaalu)

Generalizing Ilmeni Dren's sensibilities to all Hlaalus makes about as much sense as generalizing Orvas Dren's sensibilities to all Hlaalus.

The Hlaalu, as a whole, do use slaves a lot, in their mines and plantations. There's a slave market in Suran. In fact, the only Vvardenfell Great House that doesn't seem to use slaves is Redoran.

First off, that was not a serious comment. It was a joke!

Secondly, Gez is right, we cannot restrict the player's quest options. If they want to be an Argonian and join House Dres, we should let them. Because that is how Morrowind is suppose to be.

On the subject of catch-all dialogue, I again agree with Gez.

[Hemitheon]

So you want only dialogue to show difference? It is safe to assume that in House Dres' four thousand or so year history, there has never been a single non-dunmer magnate, yet all of a sudden an Argonian is gonna take over?

What if non-Dunmer players were given an alternate faction to join whose aim was to either diminish House Dres or alter it from within? That would keep the purity of House Dres intact.

Personally, I say aim for as true a recreation as possible. Appeasing players comes second. And if players want to play a race towards whom Dunmer are hostile, so be it on their own heads. Unless TR plans on basically revamping House Dres.

[Black Cat]

So you want only dialogue to show difference? It is safe to assume that in House Dres' four thousand or so year history, there has never been a single non-dunmer magnate, yet all of a sudden an Argonian is gonna take over?

The people of Morrowind had been waiting for a male, native-born, dunmer Nerevarine for centuries, and let's say suddenly a female Khajiit comes along. Well that doesn't make any sense now does it? Why would anyone self-respecting dark elf support a female Khajiit Nerevarine? They probably wouldn't. They'd hate her. But She did become the Nerevarine. This is a perfect example of the way Bethseda intended the game to be played. YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT. How the hell is the PC leader of a Great House, two different religions, an assassin's guild, a thieves guild, a military, a trading company, and a mercenary organization? Yes we have to be lore-friendly, but sometimes the lore can be bent just a little.

[Hemitheon]

Good point. I rescind my comment. Im still in favor of bribing though.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

except the nerevarine is designated by azura while the head of house dres is designated by house dres.

[Hemitheon]

I think he means Hortator which is still accepted whether the player is a dunmer or an orc or a ninja fairy from Pula Pula Island.

[Black Cat]

Thank you Hemitheon, and I am also in favor of bribing. I never said it should be easy for an Argonian/Khajitt to be the Grand Magnate, in fact it should be hard as we can make it without going overboard, but by Bethseda standards, it should be possible.

I think he means Hortator which is still accepted whether the player is a dunmer or an orc or a ninja fairy from Pula Pula Island.

You are correct.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

But Thrig means Grand Magnate of House Dres.

Azura can call the ninja fairy Hortator and Morrowind has to live with it.

No such divine intervention on the PCs part with the xenophobic Dres.

Some limits not ridiculous, is the point here, I think. But then, where do the limits stop? No beastfolk (of course)? No Imperials (logical)? No Wood Elves (seriously, who'd appoint one head of a faction anyway)? etc.

So ultimately, either position is kinda indefensible from one angle or another. Either the bizarity of Argonian Magnates, or the somewhat broken logic/total un-fun-ness of non-playable Dres. ('Cos it would be weird to exclude Argonians and not Imperials, Imperials not Nords, Nords not Wood Elves, Wood Elves not Altmer, Altmer not extranjero Dunmer etc.)

[Hemitheon]

Azura has no role in the naming of the Hortator or Nerevarine. That's 100% the decision of the House leaders. So unless we're to claim that Azura fixed everything, which I doubt, the player becaming hortator on his/her own.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

But the thing is that not only the inner 'logic' of the system (how'd this weirdo outlander get all this prestige?) is broken, but also with Dres the logic of the storyline would be broken too. We'd have to explain that the Dres make happy exceptions to their xenophobia rules for the player, whilst the player carries out xenophobic tasks and condones xenophobic dialogue.

But basically, the entire 'player can join a House as anything other than a mercenary' system is pretty broken anyway, logic-wise, and the Dres just highlight this. There's nothing can be done, I suppose, apart from accept it - or break continuity and fun by having them non-playable.

[Gez]

So you want only dialogue to show difference? It is safe to assume that in House Dres' four thousand or so year history, there has never been a single non-dunmer magnate, yet all of a sudden an Argonian is gonna take over?

It is even safer to assume that in House Dres' four thousand or so year history, there has never been any member that was a player character.


It's all about the CHIM, baby.

Or are you telling me that the guy who can manage to be head of the Tribunal Temple and the Imperial Cult, the Thieves Guild and the Fighters Guild, the Telvanni and the Mages Guild, the Redoran and the Imperial Legion, etc., couldn't use the same magic "let me in and promote me" power on the Dres? What makes the Dres' xenophobia stronger than the aforementioned antagonisms (Telvanni hate the Mages Guild, Redoran despise the Legion, Fighters are manipulated into eradicating the Thieves, etc.).


Isn't it a tenet of TR that we do not make the gameplay deviate from what Beth did? If we start restricting faction access "because it's logical", shouldn't we rebalance all the parts of the game that aren't logical?