The Unofficial Indoril and Dres Discussion

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:07 pm

Bethesda dealt with a similar issue when making the Ordinators. They are a non-playable faction because it wouldn't make sense for an Ordinator player to also be a member of the Imperial Cult. So either House Dres becomes non-playable which makes the most sense, or the nemer players get only so far into the house, then are stopped from becoming magnate/grand magnate.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:25 pm

I think only Dunmer characters should be able to Magnate and Grand Magnate via the traditional routes... Perhaps Altmer or maybe Bosmer, but races of men should be forced to take a much longer/harder/possibly underhanded route to reach that stage. I don't think any beast races, including Orcs, should be able to reach that stage without cheating/using the console.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:30 pm

Edit: Very well, just as long as it is partly joinable. I can live without beast races and orcs being the Grand Magnate

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:30 pm

What if one of the councillors is actually a traitor. He's secretly been plotting to destroy House Dres because of their BLANK (add here). So, once a non-Dunmer player gets to a certain point and are told they can't advance any further, the PC gets the option of aiding this rogue councillor in subverting the current Dres Council. The reward for be the title of Grand Magnate. The rogue councilor could give a damn for the title or the council. All he wants is to restore honor to his family which had been disgraced after BLANK.

Maybe the current Grand Magnate murdered the rogue's family to get to the top. Or maybe they stole his family estate. I don't know.

As for why the rogue would ask the non-Dunmer player to help, maybe dialogue could be something like, "You're smarter than the rest of your kind. Perhaps you can help me." Along those lines.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:33 pm

I wouldn't bother too much about trying to prevent or hamper players who want to be the Argonian Dres or whatever. It's pointless. People who'll want to play in House Dres are going to be Dunmer most of the time -- either that, or they'll deliberately be Khajiit or something just for the irony factor. In the end, TR is a mod, therefore only people with a computer will be able to interact with House Dres, therefore they'll have the full power of the editor and the console at their side. "Look, Dres-dude, just make me your boss or I'm going to go in your manor and summon Fargoth clones in every room."

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:37 pm

Perhaps. But it would still be a good idea to make the rogue councilor (If this would even be implemented) as much of a traditionalist as possible. As I, like most people, want to join House Dres because they are House Dres. I don't want to be an honest merchant and free the slaves and what not. If I wanted that I'd just join Hlaalu. I want to be Dres so I can be a slaver and own a plantation/be an asshole. I don't want to free any slaves.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:41 pm

You wouldn't have to free the slaves. The rogue councilor doesn't think of the nemer PC as his equal. He sees him as a possible pawn in his game of revenge against the current Grand Magnate. Perhaps the rogue councilor is the son of the previous Grand Magnate, whose mystery death sparked controversy. The rogue would get his revenge whatever way he could, including dealing with a nemer.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 pm

Good and clever. But the my father was assassinated (Or suddenly and unexpectedly died) and caused controversy story sounds to much like King Helseth.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:46 pm

Well there are thousands of conspiracy theories to think up.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:53 pm

That is also true, and I think the fact that House Dres is so difficult to join, rise in, and eventually control makes it the most desirable house in many ways. Imagine how satisfying it would be when an Altmer character or a Bosmer character (screw you people, I play a lot bosmers. All female.) or a redguard character (The irony right?) finally saw their stronghold completed. Perhaps these restrictions could be used positively.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:00 pm

But the Nerevarine is magic and sometime does six impossible things before breakfast.

An Argonian as head of house Dres would be an extraordinary thing, but some good storytelling could get them there.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:05 pm

TES IV says that House Dres will form an alliance with House Hlaalu. The most xenophobic house will join with the most imperial minded house because King Helseth marries with a Dres noble.
I wonder if House Dres is so xenophobic, they wouldn't join with House Hlaalu, do they?
My suggestion is that the pc has to kill some councillors of House Dres. And maybe those councillors are/could be vampires.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:08 pm

But the Nerevarine is magic and sometime does six impossible things before breakfast.

Sometimes, but usually it's seven.

An Argonian as head of house Dres would be an extraordinary thing, but some good storytelling could get them there.

Well that may be, but I'm not sure that some of the opponents of this theory (Many of whom are management) will accept this. Haplo, Thrignar, and a few others are strongly opposed to the idea.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:34 pm

Hey guys, we're not going to write ten different questlines for House Dres, alright? We'll have just one, that'll be the same for Dunmer, Altmer, Bosmer, Breton, Nord, Cyrodil, Redguard, Orc, Khajiit and Argonian.

You know the bit about asking a faction's rules before joining it, and then you get a number of choices of sentence that your character say? Make the sentence something like:
"Yes, I want to join the Noble Dunmeri Great House Dres and I think that slimy, smelly lizards and filthy, mangy cats are nothing more than cattle, that the races of men are weak and unrefined, that the other races of mer are stupid (seriously, look at the bosmer, what the fuck where they thinking when they decided it would be a good idea for them to exist?), and that the other houses are entirely made up of morons. Rah-rah-rah Dres Dunmer Power!"

Have a variant of that be the traditional greeting in House Dres. Here's your roleplay.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:45 pm

personally, i think Dres should be a play on morality. what 'evil' things are justified for 'good' purposes? most people think that slavery is evil and should be stopped, but Dres should present it as an unquestionable institution of culture. those that would be perceived by players as 'good' (the younger revolutionary generations) would really just be power hungry bastards. obvious KKK references are fine but they should not be the focus of the clan.

I feel that it is simpler here to treat everyone like scum and make them work their ass of to advance. after all, the player is an Outlander and as such inferior to the true Dres. cuts down to one storyline. i do like Gez's dialogue though

hm, this may all have been said before. not really my area anymore.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:22 am

Hey guys, we're not going to write ten different questlines for House Dres, alright? We'll have just one, that'll be the same for Dunmer, Altmer, Bosmer, Breton, Nord, Cyrodil, Redguard, Orc, Khajiit and Argonian.

I never suggested we should.

(seriously, look at the bosmer, what the fuck where they thinking when they decided it would be a good idea for them to exist?)

Again fuck you all. Fuck you all up the ass. I like the Bosmer and Valenwood.

personally, i think Dres should be a play on morality.

Yes slavery at it's core is evil, but for the Dres and Morrowind's food supply it is very valuable. It is possible that some Dres would view themselves as honest merchants who see absolutely nothing wrong with what their doing, and could in a twisted way be considered nice people doing what say think is right, while some would just be evil greedy bastards. (Hell, Lincoln didn't give a damn about slaves, he just cared about political pressure and the money he'd lose if he lost control of the south.)

I feel that it is simpler here to treat everyone like scum and make them work their ass of to advance. after all, the player is an Outlander and as such inferior to the true Dres. cuts down to one storyline. i do like Gez's dialogue though Razz

That could work.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:03 am

I'd add this.

In order to truly undestand the Dres, abandon your preconceived notions of slavery. Get into the mindset of slavery as invaluable and a righteous institution which endeavours to secure Dunmer purity and tradition. To end slavery means to strike at the heart of Dunmer society and culture.

Once you can truly understand their side, and I don't mean a shallow understanding, then you're ready to delve on in. It's the difference of reading something as a 21st century reader versus a contemporary of the idea itself.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:12 am

Only disallow beast races and imperials. I don't think anyone plays them anyway.

Umm.... I play as an Imperial....

I feel that it is simpler here to treat everyone like scum and make them work their ass of to advance. after all, the player is an Outlander and as such inferior to the true Dres.

This is probabily the best approach. Dunmer seem to dislike outlander Dunmer just as much as they dislike the other races.

I'm assuming with all talk focusing on Dres here, there won't be exscluded races and factions from House Indoril?

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:16 am

exactly Hemmi.

I don't think Indoril excludes anyone as long as they are loyal to the house and to the tribunal. Indoril would imo be about proving that you really, really love morrowind, [url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1779544,00.html]lapel and all[/url]. This is an ancient and noble house which finds itself smack dab in the middle of change (at the hands of Helseth). how are they handling it? How is the decline of the Tribunal's power hitting them? this house is what really interest me as i have little to no idea on them.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:25 am

That's solid advice Hemi, I think it would help us all better understand House Dres.

Now, do any of us really have a sense of how this would go? Dres is different from Hlaalu, Redoran, Indoril, and Telvanni. Who could you talk to that would let you in. Better yet, why would he/she let you in? There could be a task you'd have to do to prove your loyalty to the Dres cause before they'd let you in. Maybe you could cut off you ties with the empire and your homeland in a symbolic way, perhaps you could commit crimes and blame them on slaves. Or you steal some things and let it demean the empire when the legion can't find out who did it. Essentially making them look weak and pathetic.(In a small way, like maybe a rumor being spread around about what a horrible job the empire is doing.) I think this would really give the PC the sense that he is effecting the course of Morrowind in a non-uber way. Also while helping the PC better understand their hatred of all things foreign. Perhaps later quests could brainwash the PC, making it seem that the Empire is doing terrible things/is terrible. At least from the Dres view. Maybe you could be "taught" how noble slavery is.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:27 am

Mass sucide? This should spare us a lot of NPC programming...

Well i think Indoril should react in very different ways, and i think it could depend on the Nerevarine: if the Nerevarine prooves him/herself to the House gaining a long lost siant and hero could aid the house on survivinge, other choices could be denial of the situation or a simple old fashion house war and an maybe alliace with telvanni and maybe with the last remains of House Dagoth (Dagoth was the evil devil, but was also part of the Temple's doctrine and House Dagot is definetly against the Empire). I dunno if Dres would join in that case, as in 6 years they'll play pees in pod with hlaalu..

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:34 am

Mass sucide? This should spare us a lot of NPC programming...

No kidding!

I suppose we shall discuss Indoril later. We'll finish Dres first, as it is easier to do one at a time.

lapel and all.

Hmmm, I am not anything close to an Obama fan, but I'll let it go because Lady N is awesome.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:37 am

i dont think any of those are really acceptable, im not sure the Dres want an outright criminal in their ranks (even if he is promoting dunmer powah). i would do a fame check and run it as a sort of "yea, we need some minorities in here. damn politically correct traitorous white-trash Helseth." In other words, they are hiring you not because they think you can be of use to the house but because they need to put up appearances. they expect you to do menial grunt work and respect them like the little ambitious bitch that you are. the first few quests would be fed ex, as you moved up the ranks you would gain respect in their eyes (stuff like delivering a shipment of slaves, handling in house politics, and getting people to pay up. im thinking mafia). i do like the idea of the traitorous noble, it could make an interesting split in the questline.

i wasnt commenting on obama as much as on the silly fact that we need to wear a pin to show just how much we are in love with the country. this is the kind of patriotism i expect of the indoril, since they committed suicide when invaded by imperial forces.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:38 am

Dres&Hlaalu alliance was a marriage of convenience, and they never actually freed any slaves.

No dres councilors are vampires, that was a lame idea from a long time ago that should never have gained steam.

Ninja'd: N, there is no affirmative action in MW, what are you smoking.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:56 am

im not sure the Dres want an outright criminal

Perhaps they think you're expendable.

On the subject of having to hire you...how much do you think the Dres give a damn about keeping up appearances? Would they have continued slave raids? Would they keep brutalizing slaves and citizens? (only anit-dres ones of course.) House Dres doesn't care how they look. They just care about money/and some care about their sacred and "noble" traditions. I'm certain they think of Helseth as a traitor anyway and wouldn't listen to him.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:40 am

Regardless, Dres doesn't want known criminals to join their ranks. They do have some standards.

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Dres&Hlaalu alliance was a marriage of convenience, and they never actually freed any slaves

And it is also something that hasn't happened yet.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:03 am

I was working on an idea to help the outlander player join House Dres a while back. Basically there is no way the player could join normally. Dres are to strict in who they let in, which is not to say they don't hire outlanders, but they certainly don't let them into their clans and houses.

Option 1
The only option is to have a Dres Councilor that is at least somewhat sympathetic to outlanders, or sees the usefulness in sponsoring/adopting an outlander. A Councilor who is an outlander him/herself would work best. However in order for that person to have gotten in, we need a suitable backstory. The idea I had was that this councilor was a young boy(just for ease) travelling with his father to foreign lands to trade. One one of these trips he was lost, and presumed dead. Eventually he makes his way back to Morrowind as a young adult, and is accepted into his fathers houses because of a lack of male heirs(or hell, maybe they aren't that cold) and his outlander-ness is overlooked, and eventually with practice unnoticeable.

Option 2
That is a little more complicated, alternatively he could simply be the son of a merchant that traveled all over Tamriel, learning of other cultures. Eventually with his financial assets from all over the Empire, he was able to "buy" or work his way into a position of power in Tear, and eventually become a Councilor. To the PC at first, it might seem that he is simply sympathetic to outlanders(at least compared to other Dres) but perhaps there could be a actual advantage to adopting/sponsoring and eventually setting up another "outlander" Councilor, against more "rightwing" elements in the Dres leadership that might be against him.

Personally I prefer 2, sounds more like a Dres councilor and more plausible IMO.

Essentially it will come to the player and his/her sponsor against most of the others, or attempt to convince them to over-look the fact that some things are "outlander" in order to take advantage of them, financially or politically. Obviously we want this to keep the Dres as xenophobic and traditional at the end of the quest, but we can work towards a setting in which we know they eventually turn against Indoril and ally with Hlaalu(whatever the reasons given in the RP or not, we know what will happen from Oblivion, and the RP is very "unoffical").

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 am

I don't think Dres would really have a problem hiring outlanders as simple retainers and errand boys. And slaves are slaves, just because an Argonian wanders ito a Dres city doesn't mean he's going to get beaten over the head, stripped naked and thrown into a slave pit. The player is even more of an exception being all powerful and such. I see the Dres more just conservatives than outright extremists like the Cammona Tong are.

Basically, the Dres aren't villains. They don't rub their hands together while cackling maniacally and watching over their hoards of slaves being punished. Slavery and the problems it brings with it are just as much a part of them as wearing clothes and breathing. They don't try to justify it to themselves with poor arguments, they don't see it as a necessary sacrifice for maintaining their society or whatever, it's just the done thing. It's what they know is correct.

And the way I see it is that the advance into the councillor rank levels you could somehow save the life of one of the councillors and earn their support as a sponsor, then with his/her help systematically convince or subvert the other councillors in order to advance.

It'd be easy to engineer the situation. You'd be told by the current questgiver or whatever that it is Dres policy that they simply cannot advance you any further. Then you'd just be given some quest to run an errand for one of the councillors, and arrive at their house to find them under attack. Defeat the killers and they'll have a revelation about how outlanders aren't so bad and/or decide they owe you a life debt.

As a member of House Dres, you'll be abiding by all the customs and participating in all the activities of the House. It's not like from the moment you join you're some upstart renegade out to change the House forever. Eventually there wouldn't be much reason for the leaders to have distrust for you beyond their instinctive xenophobia. I mean, it's not like they're just totally blinded by hatred, you could expect at least a level of education and reason from nobles.

As long as you could at least make it into that upper "tier" of ranks, enough the get the stronghold and what have you, I wouldn't have a problem if the very highest couple of ranks were made inaccessible, it wouldn't make that much difference.

As for lower rank stuff, where you are still initially distrusted by more common, lower-ranked House members, you would probably have to prove your loyalty before joining, and then before you advance far enough to reach the more important duties, you'd pretty much be abused by your superiors, sent on long journeys for simple items, doing stuff that the native members don't want to do, sent on missions where you aren't expected to survive. Of course, being the awesome dude that is the PC, you'd persevere and eventually win some level of respect.

You could characterise their distrust of you in gameplay with things like very low starting dispositions and very small disposition increases for quest completions. It could be to the point where when walking into a Dres town for the first time, without having any affiliation with the few groups the Dres do like, the merchants might even refuse to do business with you, or an inn might refuse you a bed.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:41 am

Black Cat wrote:On the subject of having to hire you...how much do you think the Dres give a damn about keeping up appearances? Would they have continued slave raids? Would they keep brutalizing slaves and citizens?

Keeping up appearances is not enough to discontinue these practices. They'd also need to feel such practices are wrong.

And they aren't. For a Dres, it's the natural order of things.

Aiwyn the Breton · Post by **Aiwyn the Breton** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:35 am

The oblivion generic dialogue (which i remember is six years later) says that Dres and Hlaalu give up on slavery, so unless in in english this means they only stopped raids into Argonia and Elsweyr i think they actually have freed some slave...

I think in all this a part could be played by the nerevarine, in different ways: you can jon the house with the "sympathetic councilior" and work from the inside, you can act as hlaalu hortator and aid a hlaalu guy in his stronghold at the border of the map6 still in hlaalu territory in a diplomatic questline to start this alliance, or as mq for map6, which is far in the future and far to be decided. There's also the Blade options: remember the only faction the player joins FOR SURE (unless he doesn't deliver the package to Caius Cosades) are the Blades. Work as an agent for a local branch of the blades to set up a local "twin lamps" and convince the dres council to make some stronger regulation of the slave trade could also be an option (they don't have to stop slavery now, they have six years to do it but starting the process would be nice...).

I like TÃƒÂ¹relio's idea (i prefer 2 as well

) for joining, but personally I don't think Dres are much different than Ashlanders: all morrowind dunmeri are xenophobic, dres are just more traditionalist and conservative, animated by greed and trade instead of pietas and religious believings. So if you prove yourself to them (which could be very difficult) they can also accept you as hortator...

(uh, crazy thought: what about a dwemer industrial revolution? The clockwork city should be in dres territory, and even if the city itself it's lost some hint and machines could be found to start a conversion of dres economy which requires more experts and less slaves... ok, i should quit caffeine...

)

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:26 pm

While they technically gave up slavery, they really just turned all of their slaves into permanent indentured servants who they don't actually pay.

I don't think the blades care about slavery tbh.

no industrial revolutions

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:35 pm

Chin Music wrote:I don't think Dres would really have a problem hiring outlanders as simple retainers and errand boys. And slaves are slaves, just because an Argonian wanders ito a Dres city doesn't mean he's going to get beaten over the head, stripped naked and thrown into a slave pit. The player is even more of an exception being all powerful and such. I see the Dres more just conservatives than outright extremists like the Cammona Tong are.

Basically, the Dres aren't villains. They don't rub their hands together while cackling maniacally and watching over their hoards of slaves being punished. Slavery and the problems it brings with it are just as much a part of them as wearing clothes and breathing. They don't try to justify it to themselves with poor arguments, they don't see it as a necessary sacrifice for maintaining their society or whatever, it's just the done thing. It's what they know is correct.

And the way I see it is that the advance into the councillor rank levels you could somehow save the life of one of the councillors and earn their support as a sponsor, then with his/her help systematically convince or subvert the other councillors in order to advance.

It'd be easy to engineer the situation. You'd be told by the current questgiver or whatever that it is Dres policy that they simply cannot advance you any further. Then you'd just be given some quest to run an errand for one of the councillors, and arrive at their house to find them under attack. Defeat the killers and they'll have a revelation about how outlanders aren't so bad and/or decide they owe you a life debt.

As a member of House Dres, you'll be abiding by all the customs and participating in all the activities of the House. It's not like from the moment you join you're some upstart renegade out to change the House forever. Eventually there wouldn't be much reason for the leaders to have distrust for you beyond their instinctive xenophobia. I mean, it's not like they're just totally blinded by hatred, you could expect at least a level of education and reason from nobles.

As long as you could at least make it into that upper "tier" of ranks, enough the get the stronghold and what have you, I wouldn't have a problem if the very highest couple of ranks were made inaccessible, it wouldn't make that much difference.

As for lower rank stuff, where you are still initially distrusted by more common, lower-ranked House members, you would probably have to prove your loyalty before joining, and then before you advance far enough to reach the more important duties, you'd pretty much be abused by your superiors, sent on long journeys for simple items, doing stuff that the native members don't want to do, sent on missions where you aren't expected to survive. Of course, being the awesome dude that is the PC, you'd persevere and eventually win some level of respect.

You could characterise their distrust of you in gameplay with things like very low starting dispositions and very small disposition increases for quest completions. It could be to the point where when walking into a Dres town for the first time, without having any affiliation with the few groups the Dres do like, the merchants might even refuse to do business with you, or an inn might refuse you a bed.

No, the Dres are not villians, but they are xenophobic, racist, and they DO hate outlanders, particularly Argonians, that I am certain of. It's one thing for the other Houses to say they dislike or don't like outlanders, but the Dres are the ones who have been essentially on the front lines when it comes to slavery. They are always raiding into Argonia, and I think it would be a mistake to assume that the Argonians don't fight back or don't do some raiding of their own into Dres territory. The Dres do hate Argonians, and they do despise outlanders. This doesn't mean they don't find them useful, quite contrary I believe they find them very useful, but it has its limits.

I don't believe there should be any outlander retainers in Dres territory. If they are truely the traditionalists, they will be 99.99% Dunmeri. This doesn't exclude outlanders from working for them, but they will be family "retainers" and servants, and not actually part of the House.

By the PC's very nature he/she WILL be an upstart and a renegade in the House(at least the Dres will feel this way). The idea of an outlander as a councilor should be very foreign and possibly disgusting to the rest of the House nobles. Obviously as you work your way up, those that eventually come under your rank will treat you with respect, but until you are a councilor, there should be opposition by most nobles above your rank. The idea is that you have to convince them that you are not trying to change the House forever, and that you essentially are as much a Traditionalist as they are.

I agree, it might be better if we leave the highest rank(leader of House Dres) inaccessible, but then again it could still be done, and most people expect to be able to get there. If the PC can make it that far, perhaps they can go all the way.

Personally, as far as the 'save the life of the Councilor' idea, I don't think its bad, but I still prefer my second idea as I believe it works much better, because it feels less like a situation that is "setup" for the player, and more like an opportunity that has existed for a while(as in the Merchant Councilor). Also, since the Councilor is actually looking to use the PC as a pawn and eventually partner for political and financial gain, I believe this keeps more in the spirit with House Dres, than does a "life-debt" or a sudden change of heart when it comes to outlanders. Also, it gives the PC someone in the House they can relate and come back to, and we can build quests around this Councilor. It really is the beginnings of a MQ for Dres.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:18 pm

There's no official word on exactly how hateful and distrustful the Dres are. It's your word against mine.

When trying to express the views of an entire group of people, it has to be done in a very general sense. I am of the view that the Dres do not hate outsiders because "They's a differn' colour to us and we don' take kindly to those types down here in the south (of Morrowind)". I'd like to think some of them, at least a few of the more important ones, are more civilised than that, particularly considering they run a trade empire and that they are a major political entity in a society that already doesn't look upon their behaviour particularly brightly.

Eh... maybe I'm just looking too hard for a compromise. Look, it's really just a case of "where do you draw the line?". If we were to do it by the book, the player wouldn't even be allowed into House Dres. But since we don't want that, we're looking for at least a somewhat realistic interpretation.

I guess my thoughts on Dres racism for this purpose are that it's more of a social issue than a political one. Slaves are initially taken captive, "earned" if you will, for that purpose. Ordinary people, regardless of race or origin, have roughly equal rights. However the massive collective fear and hatred of outsiders rarely makes those principles translate into real life. As such, it makes it difficult, but not impossible, for outlanders, through great adversity and willpower, to succeed and even win respect in Dres society.

It's kind of like that movie, Blazing Saddles.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:41 pm

"They's a differn' colour to us and we don' take kindly to those types down here in the south (of Morrowind)".

Mercy, now I do believe thata you'll go far down here, Mr. Chin.

As such, it makes it difficult, but not impossible, for outlanders, through great adversity and willpower, to succeed and even win respect in Dres society.

Absolutely, and I'm glad I am not the only one to think so. And while a player joining House Dres may not be ultimately realistic, we could at least make it as difficult, full of racism, and good ol' fashion Dunmer powah as possible. To make it feel more real. Also to the "free slaves" suggestion, absolutely not, ever. When I and other people join House Dres, it's going to be 99% of the time because we want slaves and plantations. Not because we want to free them. If you want that, make and join the Twin Lamps. Huh, I'd actually have a plantation, funny considering I live about a block away from one.
(Louisiana has a ridiculous amount.)

It's kind of like that movie, Blazing Saddles.

I thought the same thing when this thread got going.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:44 pm

I don't think the Dres institution of slavery is motivated by hatred towards the slaves' races; while contempt is certain -- they don't hold the beast races to be the equal of even the mannish races -- if it were really hatred they had, then they'd seek extermination rather than enslavement. A condescending, paternalistic attitude seems more likely. Hatred is reserved to those Argonians and Khajiit who rebel against the "natural order of things" by trying to live free; but slaves that stay in their place, even though harshly treated, won't be hated.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:05 pm

Or, to put it simply, they see other races as inferior beings.

The hate and distrust is directed towards, like you said, free non-Dunmer. Those who they perceive as wanting to change them.

In all fairness, I think anyone would find it difficult to believe in an Argonian bent on the practice and preservation of slavery. But hey, that's the Elder Scrolls, baby.

Palisight · Post by **Palisight** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:46 pm

A alternate model for joining Dres that no one has mentioned would be the Amish (note: this comparison is not stating that the Amish have a immoral lifestyle)

Both the Amish and Dres have very traditional lifestyles and it is very rare (but not unheard of) for outsiders to become Amish.

Perhaps it could be said the reason there are no outlander Dunmer Dres NPCs is that no outlander had previously been able to prove that they could become traditional enough for House Dres

As a idea proposal on joining Dres:
1.) When you first apply, you are at a probationary non-member status

2.) To become a member of House Dres, you have to prove to (a council?, x amount of existing members?) that you have successfully assimilated Dres culture.
-Obviously this would be coded as quests. Basically the same idea as the Pilgrimages of the Seven Graces quest for joining the Tribunal Temple, but of course the pre-acceptance quests would be a lot different
-The logic for accepting you is that although you were born a outlander, you have become traditional enough for your presence to be acceptable

3.) As already mentioned, you would always have opponents (until you get to the top rank of course)

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:20 pm

Palisight wrote:-Obviously this would be coded as quests. Basically the same idea as the Pilgrimages of the Seven Graces quest for joining the Tribunal Temple, but of course the pre-acceptance quests would be a lot different

That is a good idea. Also, those quests should require doing things that abolitionists, Argonians or Khajiit would find objectionable; and there should be no way to only pretend to do them. Like, if you're tasked with slaying a bunch of rebellious slaves, you could try letting them escape and pretending you did the deal -- but it would fail because the Dres are not stupid and you were monitored. Only if you successfully, genuinely and in earnest accomplished all the trials would you become a member; any failure, deliberate or through lack of aptitude, would result in being permanently prevented from joining.

Palisight wrote:3.) As already mentioned, you would always have opponents (until you get to the top rank of course)

Why wouldn't you still have opponents once you're at the top?

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:30 pm

That is a good idea. Also, those quests should require doing things that abolitionists, Argonians or Khajiit would find objectionable; and there should be no way to only pretend to do them. Like, if you're tasked with slaying a bunch of rebellious slaves, you could try letting them escape and pretending you did the deal -- but it would fail because the Dres are not stupid and you were monitored. Only if you successfully, genuinely and in earnest accomplished all the trials would you become a member; any failure, deliberate or through lack of aptitude, would result in being permanently prevented from joining.

That is good. So we are all agreed on the fact that there should at least be tests and trials and that House Dres should not just say "Ok, you're a lot cooler than those other outlanders, I really like your hat, goes with your socks. Welcome to House Des, buddy! Lets be bestest friends 4 ever!"

I had another idea, god help us. Someone a little while back (sorry I forgot who it was) said that Dres merchants shouldn't deal with you until they trust you, or that they should at least jack up the prices something fierce. What if once you joined House Dres, and became somewhat respected, khajjit and argonian dispostions dropped quite a bit. Sort of like how Telvani don't like you as much if you're openly loyal to the empire, like being in the legion.

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:42 pm

Hemitheon wrote:You wouldn't have to free the slaves. The rogue councilor doesn't think of the nemer PC as his equal. He sees him as a possible pawn in his game of revenge against the current Grand Magnate. Perhaps the rogue councilor is the son of the previous Grand Magnate, whose mystery death sparked controversy. The rogue would get his revenge whatever way he could, including dealing with a nemer.

Lady Nerevar wrote:i would do a fame check and run it as a sort of "yea, we need some minorities in here. damn politically correct traitorous white-trash Helseth." In other words, they are hiring you not because they think you can be of use to the house but because they need to put up appearances. ... i do like the idea of the traitorous noble, it could make an interesting split in the questline.

Now we're getting somewhere. As a retconn for allowing outlanders to join, couldn't we just have some councilor use them, just as Azura used the Nerevarine? The typical player would never realize what is really happening.

Alternatively, the Chief Dres Honcho (is Grand Magnate the actual title? Sounds like someone in charge of a 19th century British shipping company.) could be an elected position. My example for this is the Holy Roman Empire of the 15th and 16 century. The Princes didn't want an emperor too strong on the throne because he would encroach upon them. Conversely, they didn't want an emperor who was too weak, as law and society would begin to disintegrate. There is no reason that the Grand Magnate cannot be an honourific title. Getting some gullible PC to be Head Dres Honcho who proved themselves to be decently strong during the questline, but is still an outlander isn't unreasonable, especially if this person's job is now primarily to sit in Helseth's court. The real power will always lie with the land barons.