The Unofficial Indoril and Dres Discussion

[blackbird]

From TIL:

The Great House Dres

House Dres:

The Great House Dres is an economic powerhouse which has managed to profit despite the encroaching imposing Imperial Culture and laws. The Dres encompasses the southern sweep of Morrowind, where the fertile Deshaan Plains merges with the bogs and bayous of the Black Marsh. The Dres are the great slave-traders and owners of the immense saltrice plantations of Morrowind. Thousands of captives, mainly races pass through the dreaded slave pens of the Dres capital, Tear, from whence most find an early death on the plantations which surround that ill-fated city.

The Dres due to their highly agrarian agricultural society has established a rigid caste system. With this strictly hierarchal system, life in Dres society was divided into four distinct classes: The Alt-Julan, the Gah’Kogo, merchants, and the lowly servants. The Alt-Julan, intent with maintaining their power and privileges restricted social mobility, to such a point that changing one’s class was almost impossible and an extreme rarity. Despite Dres society being a strict hierarchal caste system, there are those that do not fit within these classes, these are the outcasts and scum of Dres society with the exception of the Temple priests. The Temple priests are highly respected throughout Dres Society.

The aristocracy of House Dres lavish displays of wealth, living out jet-set lives, while maintaining small mercenary companies to quell down the slave uprisings on their plantation estates. Beneath the head of the House of Dres were the local lords of the plantations, who maintained their own collection of Gah’Kogo, who would serve them as soldiers, and guards, while others would in some instances serve as advisors. It is through this that the Gah’Kogo has been arraigned into a parasitic existence, to be leeching and dwelling off of the Dres lords as soldiers and advisors.

Merchants, especially those that dwell within the city were in a position to become wealthy despite the fact that their caste was towards the bottom of the chain, near the servants. They did not produce anything like the craftsmen or slaves, but they made money off of the productive labor of others. Falling within the same caste as the merchants are the craftsmen, though the dividing line to distinguish craftsmen from merchants was difficult to determine due to their overlapping economic activities. A cloth maker, for example, would engage in the selling of his own products, which in return would lead the enterprise to extend in other directions such as money-lending.

Though they are the scum of Dres Society, these slaves are coerced into serfdom, accepting their condition in a surprisingly stoic manner, drawn into complacency by the silver tongues of the proprietors of the public relation campaigns. The majority of these slaves are often the despised Betmeri known as Argonians, though not all slaves are limited to this race, for many other races are enslaved and for sale in the slave pits of Tear. The leaders of House Dres have become quite the masters of the art of backroom politics being able to quell lull slaves to accept their conditions.

Being the staunch supporters of the temple, Temple priests are highly revered in Dres society. They exist outside of the strict hierarchal system of the Dres, which allowed them through this outsider status to have a relative degree of freedom.

The Dres are so heavily dependent on slaves that their agrarian agriculture society despises and remains hostile to influence of Imperial Culture. Its economy relies heavily on the use of slaves and their saltrice plantations. Saltrice is the glue that binds this social hierarchy together, which is of course produced by the serfs.

House Dres Organization Positions:

* Hireling
* Retainer
* Oathman
* Lawman
* Kinsman
* Adept
* Novitiates
* Overseer
* Vizier
* Viceroy

House Color: Grey

Religious Aspects of the Dres:

Revered by Vivec as the representation of the Dunmer before the rule of the Tribunal, it would seem that the Dres still cling to traditions of old. The Dres despite their staunch support of the Temple still embrace the aspects of venerating the spirits of their ancestors, through the family shrine. Upon entering the fold of one house through adoption or through marriage, the member of the house binds themselves through ritual and oath into the clan of which they belong and to their House. Through this sacrament, they would find themselves adhered with communication and benefits of their clan’s ancestors, though his connection is less than their offspring, they still retain access to that of their own ancestors. Though this applies to every House, it would seem that only the Ashlanders and the Dres would take this so far. There are those that say that the Dres still worship the Daedra, and even if they did, they would have revered the Anticipations of the Tribunal rather than the other Daedra specifically the Four Corners of the House of Troubles. It would be rather hard to hide the worship any other Daedra other than the Anticipations.

Within each residence, would be a shrine, though it may be no bigger than a hearth in poorer homes or an alcove with the houses of those that are well off, these shrines are consecrated by the mere presence of displayed venerated family relics. In the interior of the homes of the rich, there is often a room set aside, specifically for the use of the ancestors. This isolated shrine is called the Waiting Door, which represents the door to Oblivion.

It is within this shrine, family members would pay their reverence to their ancestors through sacrifice and prayer, as well as through oaths sworn upon duties. Family members must also pay their respects to their ancestors by giving a thorough report of the affairs of the family. Upon paying their respects to their revered ancestors, they may receive in return knowledge, training, and blessings from their ancestors for their dutiful veneration of their ancestor spirits.

The Temple discourages such practices, as family tombs and the use of private tombs causing these traditions to fall into disfavor; the Dres have shown that they do not obey all commands of the temple, despite their fidelity to the temple by continuing such practices.

Additional Thoughts-

I also believe with uncertainty that Dres Khizumet-e despite his brief mention in the 36 sermons of Vivec before his fall is the possible "founder" of House Dres. It is possible but i'm not sure since that seems to be the only mention of Dres Khizumet-e.

I believe as well that the Dres due to their plantations would prefer to settle inner arguments through a third party. An extension on the idea of Dueling. Somewhat along the lines of each plantation of having their own "duelist" specially for this specific duty of combating another "duelist" to settle the conflicts between one plantation and another if words could not work. And resorting to the Morag Tong is a bit of a last measure.

-- written by Black Wind

House Dres:

Firstly, Great House Dres, probably the most little-known of all the Great Houses. House Dres, one of the five 'Orthodox' Houses, are an agrarian, agricultural society. They are known for their large saltrice plantations bordering Argonia, and, as a result, they rely heavily, almost completely, on slave labor. In turn, they are firm supporters of the Temple and the Tribunal, much like House Indoril, and are openly hostile to the Empire, and Imperial law, especially laws restricting their rights to hold slaves. Also, they hold a deep hatred of abolitionists, and resist all attempts to ban slavery. Dres District borders Black Marsh, also called Argonia, for the native inhabitants, and also borders Indoril District, in the very southernmost part of Morrowind Province. As a result, the temperate, swampy, almost tropical climate is well-suited to the agricultural pursuits of House Dres. The Dres House Council is in the city of Tear, therefore the city is sometimes referred to as 'Dres'. Another interesting rumor is that the Council of House Dres is completely, or at least in part, comprised of vampires, unfounded rumors, but it raises some suspicion nevertheless. As was the case with the other Great Houses, House Dres participated in the War of the First Council, helping to defeat the secular forces at Red Mountain. When the Empire attempted invading Morrowind, House Dres stood by House Indoril, along with Redoran, in trying to drive out the invaders.

In closing, House Hlaalu has this to say of Great House Dres: "The Dres know how to make money, but they have not learned how not to make enemies."

However, Lord Vivec has this to say: "House Dres represents the past of pre-Tribunal Great House culture, a persistent tradition of Daedra- and ancestor-worshipping civilized Dunmer clans."

written by Lord Hlaalu

[MMMowSkwoz]

I vote for Dres being joinable by all, but limited in ascent (i.e. no becoming head of the house). Ideas for pilgrimages-esque joining sound good.

However, the Dres are not going to be implemented for several years. I feel discussion on the Indoril would be much more useful right now. We will need to start planning their quests in a year or so.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

FSG =/= TIL
Boring =/= Canon

[Túrelio]

Sorry, when I am saying things like "they are not this, or that" I'm not suggesting that is the way it is. I'm just arguing my position. I will try to site a source if I am certain of something.

I think its a mistake to compare Dres Slavery to much with American Slavery or compare modern day prejudices with theirs. That's not how I see it. It's not this passive aggressive "we don't like you". In my view its a strict tradition and social rules of NOT accepting outlanders, that prevents them from gaining acceptance and at the same time has helped keep Dres from become "Imperialized" and they have been able to essentially change by their own rules(which is to say, they still take advantage of the situation while not being lap-dogs to the Emperor like Hlaalu).

The hatred/prejudiced is almost a separate but not unrelated cause. As I said it comes from having to deal with the Argonians, but also its the natural Mer superiority complex to the other races, but galvanized by ages of actually enslaving them, and setting up their society in a way that keeps they from being to heavily influenced from the outside. No I don't think that an Argonian or outlander entering a Dres city is going to be beaten and captured, BUT I would say that such an outlander will want to be very careful. I imagine its a fine-line to balance for those outlanders that do work with the Dres. I would not doubt that the more severe crimes are punished with enslavement, not to mention its probably all to ease to get mugged and sold illegally into bondage, and once you are there it will be very hard to get yourself out. What I think they hate, are outlanders that attempt to enter their culture in anyways beyond mere servants, those that don't fit neatly into a pre-acknowledged social role.

That's another thing, this isn't "Dunmer Power!", its "Dres Power". They oppose the other Houses from meddling in their affairs just as much. They oppose the Tribunal as well, as much as they can. This speaks to a fierce independence and probably to rules and rituals that help prevent outsiders from gaining a hold in their society. I believe that this can be very nicely integrated with their trader personality. Normally when you have a society that deals heavily with trade with other cultures, you end up with a society that is heavily influenced by the rest of the world. I see these "rules" as being the Dres' attempts to prevent being influenced in an uncontrolled way. Instead, with the rules in place, they can essentially pick and choose from what they learn from others and adopt that to suit themselves. Also, the merchant class in Dres Society is probably not going to be the same as the Noble class, which are those that normally make the rules.

I absolutely agree, no PC that has abolitionist intentions should be able to join. They might be able to successfully walk a line of not owning slaves(the most prominent slavers are sometimes not part of the upper nobility, "The Last Scabbard of Akrash") or dealing to heavily with slavery, but they certainly cannot go around free slaves right and left and they wont get to propose abolition(unless they want to be instantly imprisoned). For those who want to get into it, there should be significant quests involved in it. It would also be nice if there are some quests involved in managing your plantation(or whatever business venture you might have) and the slaves that go along with it.

[Gez]

FSG =/= TIL
Boring =/= Canon

This needs repeating.

Articles on the FSG are NOT lore. Yeah, the FSG is hosted by TIL. This doesn't confer it the legitimacy and relevance of obscure texts or game material.

[Túrelio]

Also, unless TR has made a policy of accepting it, the RPs that deal with the Dres-Hlaalu marriage alliance that leads to "abolition" of slavery and the events we hear in Oblivion, are not Lore either.

[Black Cat]

I vote for Dres being joinable by all, but limited in ascent (i.e. no becoming head of the house). Ideas for pilgrimages-esque joining sound good.

House Dres should be joinable and The Grand Magnate should be attainable. Period. It's no fun joining them if you can't rise to the top like in other houses. MMMowskwoz, you've certainly had some good ideas, but this time you're wrong.

I absolutely agree, no PC that has abolitionist intentions should be able to join. They might be able to successfully walk a line of not owning slaves(the most prominent slavers are sometimes not part of the upper nobility, "The Last Scabbard of Akrash") or dealing to heavily with slavery, but they certainly cannot go around free slaves right and left and they wont get to propose abolition(unless they want to be instantly imprisoned). For those who want to get into it, there should be significant quests involved in it. It would also be nice if there are some quests involved in managing your plantation(or whatever business venture you might have) and the slaves that go along with it.

This I however I do agree with.

[Hemitheon]

"House Dres should be joinable and The Grand Magnate should be attainable. Period. It's no fun joining them if you can't rise to the top like in other houses. MMMowskwoz, you've certainly had some good ideas, but this time you're wrong."

One thing that hasn't been considered. How long would an nemer Grand Magnate last in Dres territory? One Dres councilor is so unliked that he is forced to live in exile in Ebonheart Castle. How long would a council of Dres members amuse a nemer leader? Probably a few hours before he or she was murdered. If The Grand Magnate position is opened up to any race, then I suggest we also start talking about how we're going to deal with assasination plots. It'll be like the DB assasination attempt times 50. The nemer would never be able to set foot in Dres territory again without being attacked, nor would his authority be considered valid. The only way for a non-Dunmer to become Grand Magnate would be to assasinate the entire council and even then, how long until the Grand Council would intervene? Not long, a month at most. The destabilization of Dres territory would mean the destabilization of Morrowind, including a failure of the economy and interprovincial territorial disputes between Black Marsh and House Dres. Why? Because House Dres continues to control several chucks of Argonian territory which were stolen prior to the Arnesian War.

[Túrelio]

Another option is that there is no Grand Magistrate, and that, at least in these times, House Dres has been ruled by the Councilors with no single person at the very top. This or there is a position, but it is something like "Speaker of the Council" like a neutral powerful position that is there to make sure things go smoothly in the council and perhaps to break ties.

[Hemitheon]

now that makes more sense. Or how about the current Grand Magnate is five quadrillion years old and has entrusted the council to make decisions for him. Trouble is no one knows where he is currently (EDIT) which means noone can depose him. He seems to have vanished but messages are delivered in his name all the time. Perhaps he preceded Vivec and Nerevar on their trip to "Akavir" (EDIT) or purpose he has locked himself away within his fortress/palace.

[Black Cat]

One thing that hasn't been considered. How long would an nemer Grand Magnate last in Dres territory? One Dres councilor is so unliked that he is forced to live in exile in Ebonheart Castle. How long would a council of Dres members amuse a nemer leader? Probably a few hours before he or she was murdered. If The Grand Magnate position is opened up to any race, then I suggest we also start talking about how we're going to deal with assasination plots. It'll be like the DB assasination attempt times 50. The nemer would never be able to set foot in Dres territory again without being attacked, nor would his authority be considered valid. The only way for a non-Dunmer to become Grand Magnate would be to assasinate the entire council and even then, how long until the Grand Council would intervene? Not long, a month at most. The destabilization of Dres territory would mean the destabilization of Morrowind, including a failure of the economy and interprovincial territorial disputes between Black Marsh and House Dres. Why? Because House Dres continues to control several chucks of Argonian territory which were stolen prior to the Arnesian War.

This is barely relevant to my point at all. Yes lore is extremely important but what is even more important is to make it like bethseda would've, and guess what, Grand Magnate would have been open to anyone, because that is what the elder scrolls are all about. If you must do the assassination thing, make it very once in a while, because when I played tribunal I got tired of being attacked by assassins every time I rested. I think I kill over 80 in about 2 hours of gameplay. No that is not a joke at all, I really counted them.

Edit: Turelio, your solution may work.

[Túrelio]

now that makes more sense. Or how about the current Grand Magnate is five quadrillion years old and has entrusted the council to make decisions for him. Trouble is no one knows where he is currently (EDIT) which means noone can depose him. He seems to have vanished but messages are delivered in his name all the time. Perhaps he preceded Vivec and Nerevar on their trip to "Akavir" (EDIT) or purpose he has locked himself away within his fortress/palace.

Yea I like that. Then the council has worked itself around this so that it can exercise most of its power without needing the Grand Magnate there. There should probably still be more to it than that. If the Magnate never shows up, eventually someone is going to have him declared dead, so perhaps there are reasons why they want to leave him as Magnate, or at least servants and others that keep this from happening. Essentially though, to keep the PC from feeling live they've been cheated, we can say that its widely assumed that the Grand Magnate is dead, and that over the centuries they have simply modified the government to work without a Grand Magnate.

Then perhaps work that in with the 'Speaker' position I was talking about. Perhaps this was a position invented to help work around the Grand Magnates absence, but it doesn't hold absolute sway over the House. In reality, this fits much better in with how the faction quest-lines usually end, where you can't really do what an actually leader could.

[Black Cat]

Yea I like that. Then the council has worked itself around this so that it can exercise most of its power without needing the Grand Magnate there. There should probably still be more to it than that. If the Magnate never shows up, eventually someone is going to have him declared dead, so perhaps there are reasons why they want to leave him as Magnate, or at least servants and others that keep this from happening. Essentially though, to keep the PC from feeling live they've been cheated, we can say that its widely assumed that the Grand Magnate is dead, and that over the centuries they have simply modified the government to work without a Grand Magnate.

Then perhaps work that in with the 'Speaker' position I was talking about. Perhaps this was a position invented to help work around the Grand Magnates absence, but it doesn't hold absolute sway over the House. In reality, this fits much better in with how the faction quest-lines usually end, where you can't really do what an actually leader could.

I will happily admit that this a good logical solution, but I and many other people will always feel cheated if we could not be Grand Magnate. Then again, it's not really up to me.

[Lady Nerevar]

they can be the leader of the other 5 houses and dozen factions, i dont see them having a shiny title (which is really all that house leaders are) as much of a disappointment.

[Gez]

How long would a council of Dres members amuse a nemer leader? Probably a few hours before he or she was murdered. If The Grand Magnate position is opened up to any race, then I suggest we also start talking about how we're going to deal with assasination plots. It'll be like the DB assasination attempt times 50. The nemer would never be able to set foot in Dres territory again without being attacked, nor would his authority be considered valid.

If this is a "this happens if PC is race X or Y but not if he's race Z" then I oppose this tremendously.

[Túrelio]

I think that was an argument for not having the position be open. As in if we did allow any race to become Grand Magnate then they would likely be assassinated before long.

[Lady Nerevar]

i think that in order to rise to a high rank you will probably need to coerce, bully, blackmail, and kill off the other councilors. by the time you get into a position of power they will fear you and not dare to do anything obvious against you. i'd say that a solid part of the house will hate you when youre the leader, but politics is never easy.

i support the council idea.

[Black Cat]

they can be the leader of the other 5 houses and dozen factions, i dont see them having a shiny title (which is really all that house leaders are) as much of a disappointment.

I'll be honest, I am being pretty fucking anal about this. There are two reasons.

1.I really like House Dres and plan to fight for it the way I see it.

2. In my opinion (not that it is of huge consequence) the only thing TR can do that is worse than contradicting lore is contradicting the very reason Bethseda made the game. So that you can be anyone. Even a female khajiit/ninja/werewolf/Grand Magnate. Of course I suppose the less pretty reason would be money...

[gro-Dhal]

As a slave-based society, maybe the Dres don't really have a peasant class. They have an aristocracy, and commoners who are largely tradesmen, soldiers and administrative bureaucrats. Like Imperial China and 19th-century Russia (two IRL societies built on the foundations of a large labouring workforce) maybe the Dres need rather more bureaucratic organisation than the other houses, and perhaps this is where power really lies. Then you have traditional values (represented by the nobility, the nominal leaders of the house) versus pragmatism and relative meritocracy (represented by the people who actually run things). This would also set up some interesting in-house conflicts.

Edit: the bureaucrats are still bastards of course

[Túrelio]

I always thought of the Indoril as more the bureaucrats, and getting most of their power from administration.

The idea of no peasant class seems fine to me however. Commoners, Soldiers, Merchants/Traders, and then Nobility perhaps.

[Haplo]

Guys Grand Magnate is just a fancy name for 'head councilor' and Magnate is a name for 'councilor' since the Dres like tradition and don't like Imperialization of things. Just so you know.

[Black Cat]

Ok, I'll get right back on helping you guys discuss things as soon as this is answered:


We've all gone against me and Grand Magnate will unattainable? Or Is it still open for debate? Or are we going to ignore it for the time being.

[Túrelio]

If that was settled already someone would have said as much. It's not something that as far as I know has been settled already, it just seems that many of us agree that this would be a good way to do it.

This isn't really where we are deciding anything really, this is just a place to discuss ideas, that somewhere down the road those who will decide can come back to.

[Xui'al]

i'd say that a solid part of the house will hate you when youre the leader, but politics is never easy.
i support the council idea.

I agree, but what is wrong with the head position being honourific and elected?

[Lady Nerevar]

i just like something different, thats all. i think that having a top office that is just a symbol hasnt been done before (afaik), and i think having a council on equal standing would make it more interesting and open up a whole lot of possibilities in insider politics. the Dres also dont seem to be the kind to elect a leader.

[Hemitheon]

How bout something like this. There are an even number of magnates. It's been that way for like forever. So they elect another to be tie-breaker. This is the Grand Magnate. It works, it's logical. The only thing is the title "grand magnate." If that role is going to become something more like a Speaker then the name should be changed. With a name like Grand Magnate, you may as well call him Grand Pumba. It needs something with a better ring.

[Black Cat]

This isn't really where we are deciding anything really, this is just a place to discuss ideas, that somewhere down the road those who will decide can come back to.

I'm well aware that this isn't where we actually decide things, otherwise I would have named it the official dres and indoril discussion. I was just curious if everybody was leaning towards the council thing. It appears I got my answer. I will be a fair guy and accept that that is what everyone believes is the best answer. But could you at least be the head council guy. Maybe not the Grand Magnate but at least the Magnate?

i think having a council on equal standing would make it more interesting and open up a whole lot of possibilities in insider politics. the Dres also dont seem to be the kind to elect a leader.

Alas, miss. I fear you are right. I will surrender my views in favor of the consensus.

[Haplo]

Or how about there are an odd number of Magnates and the Grand Magnate is just the one that's been there the longest. Or maybe it rotates. Or maybe its just a title of who gets to speak first at gatherings and speak for the Dres until someone wrests it away from him in a challenge of some sort. Like a World Title.

[Túrelio]

I like that idea of someone who gets to speak first. It sounds like the start of an interesting political system. Unfortunately we cannot really have the PC engage in a council discussion, but perhaps it could be something like, the one who presents new "bills" or whatever they are deciding to each of the members or something. If we want the PC to take the position it needs to be a challenge for sure.

[Yeti]

However, the Dres are not going to be implemented for several years. I feel discussion on the Indoril would be much more useful right now. We will need to start planning their quests in a year or so.

There probabily should be more discussion on Indoril. Map 3 seems to be pretty far along in developement while Map 6 isn't even being worked on. Perhaps someone should start a new thread so there can be seperate discussions on both Indoril and Dres.

[Haplo]

I like that idea of someone who gets to speak first. It sounds like the start of an interesting political system. Unfortunately we cannot really have the PC engage in a council discussion, but perhaps it could be something like, the one who presents new "bills" or whatever they are deciding to each of the members or something. If we want the PC to take the position it needs to be a challenge for sure.

It's the same thing with the U.S. Supreme Court Justices and I think Parliament? Or the House over there... maybe. Or I could just be making that part up, I don't know.

[Túrelio]

Yea I know, but I was just saying its the start of something interesting, more defined than simply a council that makes decisions. The other councils haven't really been explained as far as I know, at least not the process and procedure.

[Chin Music]

I honestly, seriously don't think it matters if you let the player achieve top rank or not.

Personally I'd go for not. Just because it'd be easy to make up some stuff about how the real "top rank" is just a symbolic title or how that there is no one leader of the House and that even with a House Dres toned down enough to let to player join, it'd still be hard to justify creating all the necessary gameplay ramifications of being made leader while still keeping with the feel of the faction.

Basically what I mean is that you could reasonbly create House Dres where the player, as an outlander, is awarded an appropriate (reduced) amount of respect from all members of the House for each advancement up until the advancement to leader, as that's the jump I feel would stretch the generosity of the created faction. It could be done, I just think it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

As for Indoril, what is there to say? Their own hatred is directed more toward the Empire than outlanders in general. Advancement would perhaps not come as easily as it does in the other Houses, but it would come.

I remember having a thought some time ago that in some small way, your advancement in House Indoril could be regulated in part by your rank in the Temple. This could be done to any degree. So you could just say "To join you must be an Initiate in the Temple" and leave it at that. Or, you could keep them side by side the entire way, which could be used to add the "difficulty" factor in Indoril advancement. So "you can not have rank X until you are rank Y in the Temple" and so on. Obviously you wouldn't need to go too high.

But it's just an idea. Indoril seems like it would be kind of difficult to create quests for, since it's not immediately apparent what they actually do. Their quests could certainly overlap with Temple/Ordinator business, but their quests shouldn't be at all similar.

[Black Cat]

There probabily should be more discussion on Indoril. Map 3 seems to be pretty far along in developement :dance: while Map 6 isn't even being worked on. Perhaps someone should start a new thread so there can be seperate discussions on both Indoril and Dres.

Yes, I suppose you're right. Everybody let's drop House Dres for now and discuss House Indoril. I know House Indoril sucks when you compare it House Dres in any way, but it must be discussed. Don't quote this in your post and then say something about how you like House Indoril more as we will all be aware you are lying.

Basically what I mean is that you could reasonbly create House Dres where the player, as an outlander, is awarded an appropriate (reduced) amount of respect from all members of the House for each advancement up until the advancement to leader, as that's the jump I feel would stretch the generosity of the created faction. It could be done, I just think it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

If I ever do get promoted for questing, I'll make the whole damn faction myself if I have to, and it'll be some of best goddamn writing TR has ever witnessed. If it were ever up to me (yes I know it never will be) Grand Magnate would be one of the most insanely difficult, ridiculously unbelievable, damn near impossible ranks to attain, but it would be attainable.

Anyhow perhaps with House Indoril, for every two ranks you advance you have to gain one in the temple. This is still difficult but a little more believable. Also this way the PC isn't pulled away from the Indoril questline every ten seconds.

[Túrelio]

My understanding is that Indoril gets its power by administrating and presiding over things, like local councils and trade in Morrowind. They control the capitol of Morrowind, and the largest Imperial fortification is in their lands, so they probably use this to their advantage. This means they control things like taxes, and probably get cuts from everything they get their hands into, but money doesn't have to be the direct benefit, its probably more likely to be political maneuvering to put other Indoril at an advantage to the other Houses.

Good and probably the best example for this would be them handling many of the financial and political ambitions of the Temple and related organizations, like the Ordinators. They negotiate with the other Houses to set up temples, wayrests, shrines, monasteries, etc while in exchange they might get money, but more likely an Indoril will be set up in charge of it.

They probably also make a good bit of their money from pilgrims and "tourists" to Almalexia and other holy locations in their lands, and possibly to Temple controlled lands like Necrom. At the very least the pilgrims will need lodging and food, but there could be many other benefits to having many people come to their towns and stimulating their economies. Probably most who enter the Temple end up coming to Almalexia or monasteries in Indoril lands for training and teaching("The Poison Song"), which also helps.

Essentially they get their hands into everything, but don't think explicitly for financial gain, but more for any kind of gain, specifically for more power, which from that the money will come. Being Tribunal favorites, has helped them do this for ages probably.

Yes, I suppose you're right. Everybody let's drop House Dres for now and discuss House Indoril. I know House Indoril sucks when you compare it House Dres in any way, but it must be discussed. Don't quote this in your post and then say something about how you like House Indoril more as we will all be aware you are lying.

We can talk about both just fine.

[Gez]

it'd still be hard to justify creating all the necessary gameplay ramifications of being made leader while still keeping with the feel of the faction.

The gameplay ramification of being made leader of a faction is that you can't do any more quests...

[Chin Music]

I've already mentioned I don't think it matters one way or the other, but some people seem to feel that being put in the position of ultimate authority of House Dres as an outlander should have more effects such as assassinations, or select groups targeting you.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree with them. The thing is that House Dres is slightly different from the other Houses in that no matter where you are there's always going to be some sort of opposition to your presence. And the higher you rise, the larger the opposition gets.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think it's too much of a stretch to be given total leadership and have everyone in the faction love you utterly like in the others. And even for this interpretation of House Dres, one that allows an outlander rise this high to begin with, it seems unrealistic. And then I think that people don't really get into a leadership position to be hated. My mind continues to ramble.

But maybe other people disagree and think that that sort of thing could be accommodated, or that it's not an issue.

[Black Cat]

Indoril seems like it would be kind of difficult to create quests for, since it's not immediately apparent what they actually do.

Perhaps House Indoril operates like a group of nobles, just sitting around collecting taxes, governing over their territories, preventing uprisings, and generally monitoring the other Great House's action. In fact, now that I think about it, that could be put into the quest line. While you're roaming around on official Indoril business and such, helping them regain what they lost, you could also monitor the other houses. What if Indoril was like the tie-breaker house, if only because they have the most power (or did), making sure the other houses stay in line and serve their people and Almsivi properly. Almost like a parent.

[daedren]

I know House Indoril sucks when you compare it House Dres in any way, but it must be discussed. Don't quote this in your post and then say something about how you like House Indoril more as we will all be aware you are lying.

Excuse me? I do say I prefer a thousand times house Indoril to house Dres and that's purely true.
You may like house Dres more, but please, don't say house Indoril is not a very interesting house, at least.
House Indoril is bounded to Morrowind history in a way that is simply amazing. And although it's starting to lose it's power, we have to admit it still has a lot of influence and wealth. Besides, I think their traditional orthodox point of view gives an even more magical feeling of truthfulness and law, and order.

The house Indoril is actually my favorite one from all 5 houses. Their affinity with ordinators and the Temple is, in my opinion, one more point adding to their score.
They are the image of the idyllic world, as it should be. Changes are inevitable, but still, there are many which just make things worse.


So, house Indoril rocks for me period.



And I think that discussion is pending too much for the Dres side too, and Dres is far away. Of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, I only think that Indoril is more urgent, as we are soon entering in map 3's quest development. Btw, has the storyline for house Indoril been determined yet, or it's still a mistery?

[Black Cat]

Excuse me? I do say I prefer a thousand times house Indoril to house Dres and that's purely true.
You may like house Dres more, but please, don't say house Indoril is not a very interesting house, at least.
House Indoril is bounded to Morrowind history in a way that is simply amazing. And although it's starting to losing it's power, we have to admit it still has a lot of influence and wealth. Besides, I think their traditional orthodox point of view gives an even more magical feeling of truthfulness and law, and order.

The house Indoril is actually my favorite one from all 5 houses. Their affinity with ordinators and the Temple is, in my opinion, one more point adding to their score.
They are the image of the idyllic world, as it should be. Changes are inevitable, but still, there are many which just make things worse.

A duel it shall be then! Or maybe not, If you like House Indoril that's cool. It's not that they are really uninteresting or that they are a "bad house" lore-wise. I was just showing some House Dres team spirit. Continue loving what you love, it makes the world a better place.

Btw, has the storyline for house Indoril been determined yet, or it's still a mistery?

As far as I know, they haven't made any story lines or quests yet, and from what I hear, you may just be the man to really help us out with the House Indoril discussion.