The Unofficial Indoril and Dres Discussion

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:57 pm

I don't mind jobs 'for' Ordinators. Just jobs 'as' Ordinators.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:58 pm

well you would have to disguise your self as such

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:02 pm

Yeah, well specifics aren't really important right now. But as long as anything Ordinator related is made clear that its the Ordinators (as a seperate organisation) asking something of Indoril, rather than Indoril just doing Ordinator chores because 'that's what they do', when it isn't.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:04 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Indoril official in the temple wants someone killed and framed as a heretic. He won't ask anyone other than a member of house indoril to kill the person because it is fairly apparent when you are asked to plant evidence that this is a political killing. I think this would get old fast, especially considering you would need to travel to the ends of the earth probably to kill the person, so maybe after 2 quests you come back to find the quest giver dead and with evidence of heresy planted on him.

They are not as separate as you might think, especially when politically motivated such as these would be.

Could be interesting, then the player is implemented in heresy, and they might have to prove themselves while also hiding the fact that they just masqueraded as an Ordinator.

daedren · Post by **daedren** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:12 pm

Yeah, that's what I think about it. It's not making the player becoming an ordinator; it's making that, at some point, the player has to cooperate with the ordinators in some sort of task in order to serve the intents of both house indoril and the ordinators, so that both get satisfied and politically more pleased.

And I agree that we should make few quests of this.

That's why HI quest line has so much potential: you don't limit the quests to one repetitive sort of tasks, but make a quest line that, while being cohesive, makes the player do the biggest amount of different tasks possible, in order to keep him satisfied with something new.
That's why HI story will kick ass!

EDIT: oops, didn't read posts in this page before answering...
But I think the idea of the disguise is perfectly suitable for what we want. Coz, in one hand, we don't want the player to become an ordinator; it's just politics and helping ordinators favors HI; so, in one or two quests the player "is" an ordinator. That is a way for us to answer player wishes of playing as ordinator, without making it super ubber. The player disguises in those quests, then when they end he's the player again

It would also contribute for making the story even more interesting, IMO, while keeping a reasonable balance.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:06 pm

As I'm sure everyone who has been confused about this will see if they read my post again, or perhaps for the first time who knows, there is an enormous difference between not preventing the player from doing whatever they want, and writing the quest so that it directly contradicts what "Actually Happens."

In fact, in order for TR to "allow the player to be anyone," the mod must allow the player to rise to the top of any faction without going against what happens. That way, in lore, a vampiric argonian nerevarine who is head of house indoril could have actually happened, rather than having "head of house indoril" be an impossible quality for the story Nerevarine to have.

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:36 pm

Hemitheon wrote: 3) Horatio Gargonath is writing a nasty play about the Sevuro family. The GA wants you to steal the play.

No doubt that this idea has Sload's and TF's vote.

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote: Could be interesting, then the player is implemented in heresy, and they might have to prove themselves while also hiding the fact that they just masqueraded as an Ordinator.

Masquerading as an ordinator would be neat, but more suited to the Temple. However, the PC getting tried for heresy may be the best idea yet on this thread. A totally dialogue based quest centering on the trial has the potential to be fantastic.

As our resident neuter half-god suggested, having the player weaken House Indoril enough to allow for the events of Oblivion is a really good idea, and will allow us lots of flexibility in the questline.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:44 pm

Xui'al wrote:Masquerading as an ordinator would be neat, but more suited to the Temple.

Why would the Temple need pretend Ordinators when it has the real deal at its service?

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:48 pm

Gez wrote:
Xui'al wrote:Masquerading as an ordinator would be neat, but more suited to the Temple.
Why would the Temple need pretend Ordinators when it has the real deal at its service?

Masquerade is simply the wrong verb. I'm merely stressing that House Indoril and the Ordinators are separate orders. Dressing up as an Ordinator could probably be fit into the Temple questline, but that wouldn't be a masquerade.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:03 pm

The way I saw this potential quest, it was something like: "Hey, we want you to kill that guy, but we don't have any legal justification for getting him killed. So, instead, we're going to pretend we have. Put on this War Ordinator uniform, go seek and destroy him, and claim that he's a dangerous heretic. As an agent of the Law, nothing will be able to stop you. Just avoid chatting with real Ordinators, they could discover something is amiss and it would be very awkward..."

Hey, Indoril is the House of Almalexia, whose Anticipation is Boethiah, Prince of Plot. Sneaky covert operations are perfectly possible. And holy.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:12 pm

i think its silly. remember what happens when you wear ordinator armor in front of an ordinator? thats holy shit right there.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:18 am

You'd have to explain why they don't just hire the Morag Tong as well. It's not like that's not above board or anything.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:39 am

Maybe they really don't want many people to know they're behind it and would perfer giving it to one of there own members than an independant organation such as the Morag Tong.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:55 am

Maybe they really don't want many people to know they're behind it and would perfer giving it to one of there own members than an independant organation such as the Morag Tong.

I'm pretty sure the Morag Tong keeps it's contracts and clients secret. I also don't think the Morag Tong would care enough about Great House wars to blackmail House Indoril or anything of that nature.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:20 am

You'd have to explain why they don't just hire the Morag Tong

Okay, here's some possibiities

1. The guy they want to kill is very high profile and they want to be absolutey sure word doesn't get out that they were behind it.

2. The guy is connected somehow to the Morag Tong. Maybe hes a member or has contacts within the organization loyal to him.

3. The Morag Tong refuses to asssasinate the guy for some other reason. Maybe they respect him or something.

Anyway, there were "go there and kill him/them" quests on Vvardenfell where the Morag Tong could have been used instead of the PC.

the mod must allow the player to rise to the top of any faction without going against what happens.

Yeah, I guess you're right Sload. As long as Indoril's future fall will only be hinted at.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:03 am

The problem with the quest is that giving the player Ordinator armor is bad. You get killed for having that shit, there's no excuse for someone to be just giving it away for you to pretend to be one to kill someone. It doesn't work.

The whole thing is illogical anyway. The Indoril own the Temple. That's how they have maintained so much power over the other houses. Most clergy are loyal to the House. They could find any actual ordinator on the street who would be willing to carry out their dirty work. They don't need a fake one.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:32 pm

Is there some way to spin it like professors or doctors who have tenure in real life? A vote or something overwhelming/unanimous is required to oust them, plus loads of paperwork. Is it possible there could be an Ordinator or someone in Indoril/the Temple who has some sort of tenure, or some form of it with the people or with his cohorts, which makes ousting him from the inside look very bad politically? That would give them an excuse to use you, but you wouldn't need to use Ordinator armor. Remember the "Dunmer woman with a dagger" in Vivec that killed two Ordinators? Or, as was already mentioned, a writ from the Morag Tong.

daedren · Post by **daedren** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:49 pm

I've been reading once again Lord Hlaalu's report on House Indoril, and I think its ending is a good summary of important aspects relatively to this Great House.
Here is it:

In conclusion, I feel I have made these points:

1. House Indoril used to be (and still retains some) the most powerful and controlling of the Great Houses.
2. The Indorils think themselves better than the other Dunmer clans.
3. Vivec, whether he admits it or not, is intricately tied into House Indoril, as explained in the 36 Lessons.
4. Nerevar is, or should I say, was, a member of House Indoril.
5. The Indorils played an important role at Red Mountain, and also at the invasion of Morrowind.
6. Nerevar is the founder of House Indoril, along with, possibly, the Lady Almalexia, and, as Vivec says, the Indorils are most like Almalexia.
7. House Indoril controls much of the Temple priesthood and hierarchy.
8. The Indorils are often fanatical, especially Ordinators.
9. House Indoril and House Dres favor each other in several aspects.
10. The power of House Indoril is waning.

I think it covers important aspects of the Great House nature.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:37 pm

It seems to me like a pretty big 'no shit, sherlock' summary from captain obvious, no offense to the writer. Those points are pretty obvious though.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:59 am

I have to say with all the thinking going into this, that Map3 and House Indoril look like they will turn out very well. Not that the first two weren't good, or that House Telvanni wasn't enjoyable, but Map3 appears to be where TR will really start to shine.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:37 am

2. The Indorils think themselves better than the other Dunmer clans.

All Dunmer clans seem to think they're better than others though House Indoril, would probabily be much more exstream in this thought.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:16 am

There is ZERO evidence to show that Indoril Nerevar established House Indoril.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:36 pm

There is ZERO evidence to show that Indoril Nerevar established House Indoril.

I do not know much about this subject so I can't really be 100% sure, but even if Nerevar did not really found House Indoril, most people think he did, or will assume he did. You could argue that that is illogical, and it is, but I think discussing it is a waste of time.

Now about Indoril's relationship with House Dres, just how "friendly" will they be? In vanilla Morrowind Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni all hated each other and communication, as well as trade between them pretty much did not exist. A Redoran noble walking around Balmora probably wouldn't do to well, but an Indoril noble walking around Tear probably wouldn't even be noticed. Is TR planning to simulate interaction between the two new houses?

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:13 pm

Black Cat wrote:I do not know much about this subject so I can't really be 100% sure, but even if Nerevar did not really found House Indoril, most people think he did, or will assume he did.

Nerevar died without siring any heir. He did not have any single child of him. What happens to a dynasty when its founder dies without a heir? You get a very short dynasty consisting on only one person.

House Indoril survived Nerevar because it predated him, and there were many other members than him. People who argue otherwise just don't know what they're talking about.

(The only way in which Nerevar can be seen as a "founder" of House Indoril is if you say that it's his prestige and fame that allowed his house to gain the power and influence needed to become a Great House, rallying many other minor Houses under his banner. But that would be like saying that Woodrow Wilson founded the USA, since they weren't considered a real world power until WW1.)

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:25 am

Gez wrote:But that would be like saying that Woodrow Wilson founded the USA, since they weren't considered a real world power until WW1.)

What? USA? I thought I was living in the League of Nations...

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:33 am

What? USA? I thought I was living in the League of Nations...

Well I'm in Dixie, that's sort of another country isn't it? But to repeat my original question :

Now about Indoril's relationship with House Dres, just how "friendly" will they be? In vanilla Morrowind Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni all hated each other and communication, as well as trade between them pretty much did not exist. A Redoran noble walking around Balmora probably wouldn't do to well, but an Indoril noble walking around Tear probably wouldn't even be noticed. Is TR planning to simulate interaction between the two new houses?

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:54 am

what do you mean wouldn't even be noticed? No house is friendly with any other house, I have no idea why you think they would be.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:09 am

My mistake then, I was under the impression Dres and Indoril were allies. Apparently not.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:21 am

The five Great Houses do not have allies or enemies among themselves; only rivals. They feud with each other but unite in case of external threat. (In theory. In practice, pragmatism may hamper this beautiful mechanism.)

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:27 am

Interesting thread. Had I known that it lived beyond the first 4 posts I would have been all over this....

Anyways, I have a question about the TR stance on the Dres. Though I saw the marriage between Helseth and a Dres noble discussed in this thread, I was wondering if a definite decision had been made about it's position as "lore we follow". I agree with many that the "abolition" of slavery that resulted from this union, as stated in Oblivion, is one of many cop-outs that people dislike. For one thing this destroys a big part of who the Telvanni and Dres are.

However, I was wondering if we could portray the marriage between Helseth and the Dres hottie if we left out the abolition bit. My reasoning is, we can't assume that they abolished slavery on their wedding night, they were doing other things. Slavery was probably "abolished" much later, after the marriage. It would allow an interesting connection between the mainland Hlaalu and Dres houses without destroying who the Dres and Telvanni are, because the abolition of slavery never happens while you're playing.

Side note/question: If Almalexia was closest to the Indoril, who were Vivec and Sotha Sil closest to?

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:23 am

As far as I know, the RP is not considered canon or Lore by TR. Its Fanon.

Dres do abolish slavery, this is canon from Oblivion, however TR's take on this is that Dres did this in a manner that would benefit it. Dres traded slavery for just another form of forced labor, so they essentially have changed nothing except that they can now call it something else, and they gain some control over the other houses that depend on slaves.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:56 am

Interesting thread. Had I known that it lived beyond the first 4 posts I would have been all over this....

Heh, my first two threads seem to have become very popular. I doubt I am worthy.

Side note/question: If Almalexia was closest to the Indoril, who were Vivec and Sotha Sil closest to?

Vivec is closest to Redoran, Sotha SIl is closest to Telvanni. He tells you at some point in the main quest, if you ask him, that is.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:59 am

Black Cat wrote: Vivec is closest to Redoran, Sotha SIl is closest to Telvanni. He tells you at some point in the main quest, if you ask him, that is.

I don't believe he says that. Sotha Sil belonged to his own Minor House, House Sotha, and was brought into Indoril when it was destroyed, and Almalexia is certainly a part of Indoril as well. Vivec, I'm not sure, but it seems plausible to me that he would be Indoril as well.

If you can find a sample of and where he says that, I might believe it.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:19 am

I never imagined Vivec as belonging to any one house. If you look at him, you'll notice he wears armor and jewelry that are associated with all 5 houses and the ashlanders. I think before the Apotheosis, he was simply a wandering mystic who became a mentor for House Indoril.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:35 am

He never said that they belonged, he said that they felt closest, anyway here is the link.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_18.shtml

But to save some time here is the quote:

"I love the people of Morrowind. I became a god to make their lives more comfortable and secure. I am most close to my faithful followers; I am literally in their hearts and minds. I feel the most sympathy with House Redoran; they are Dunmer driven by creeds and deeds, like I am. House Indoril is closer to the compassion and sympathy of Almalexia, a comfortable and secure serenity. House Telvanni matches the disposition of my brother Sotha Sil -- iconoclastic, profane, unconventional."

"House Hlaalu represents the future of the Dunmer, integrated into the sophisticated mainstream of the traditionless, raceless, godless culture of the Empire. House Dres represents the past of pre-Tribunal Great House culture, a persistent tradition of Daedra- and ancestor-worshipping civilized Dunmer clans. And I even love the Ashlanders for their preservation of the most ancient barbarian tribal traditions of the Dunmer who first settled Morrowind."

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:07 am

Thank you Black Cat, I misread what you were saying before.

Hemitheon, that might be a bit of a stretch. I don't think his clothing really points to anything in particular. To me it just looked like the closest pieces they could match to the concept art of Vivec. In concept art he has a much more elaborate outfit, and I would say that is probably a better indicator of who Vivec should be, if any images of him were to be.

That's an interesting theory on travelling mystic. I always figured he was probably an Indoril "noble". The Houses would have changed quite a bit since that time, especially Indoril, so perhaps he would have fit in better at that time. I imagine all of them looking a bit more primitive, very similar to Ashlanders, but probably less clothing. At least this is the impression I get from Vivec and Almalexia, but then their attire could just be what seems appropriate for gods.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:13 am

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote:I always figured he was probably an Indoril "noble".

Even if it were true, it wouldn't be true. Vivec depicted himself as a clanless orphan, born from very modest origins ("a netchiman and his wife").

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:25 pm

@ Turelio. Whaddya know, your right. I could have sworn he wore stuff from all five. Turns out he wears a Redoran pauldron and a band with the symbol of one ashlander clan.

milne · Post by **milne** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:05 pm

About the inter-house relationships thing, I thought that House Telvanni often hired mercenaries from Redoran and bought slaves from the Dres. So they might at least respect each other a little more than Hlaalu who end up being bastards to all...

I always thought Indoril, Dres and Redoran would treat each other with a little less hostility because of their religion and similar traditions. They are still rivals, but not at each others throats.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:38 pm

milne wrote:So they might at least respect each other a little more than Hlaalu who end up being bastards to all...

The houses are more or less specialized. Redoran provide warriors, Hlaalu provides traders, Telvanni provides magic stuff (including, in our mod, the giant bugs called silt striders: they're bred in Sadas Plantation), Indoril provides order and Dres provides food. While each house could be more-or-less self-sufficient, in reality each needs the other four to maintain its own way of life. So everybody needs the Hlaalu, unless they want their trade with distant houses or foreign provinces to be handled directly by the East Empire Company...