The Unofficial Indoril and Dres Discussion

[Black Cat]

So everybody needs the Hlaalu, unless they want their trade with distant houses or foreign provinces to be handled directly by the East Empire Company...

I think you're right about that, but in my own mind I doubt that the Hlaalu are really much better than the East Empire Company, with the exception of being dunmer. Of course, that little detail would mean quite a lot to the other Great Houses.

But are we even discussing Indoril and Dres now? I mean don't get me wrong, this little talk is interesting, but I personally would kind of like to back on the subject of the two new houses.

[greendogo]

... unless they want their trade with distant houses or foreign provinces to be handled directly by the East Empire Company...

And I'm sure they would loooove that!

Edit:

But are we even discussing Indoril and Dres now? I mean don't get me wrong, this little talk is interesting, but I personally would kind of like to back on the subject of the two new houses.

In the larger context of Houses Indoril and Dres, this stuff is pretty important. But if you wanted to talk about something else, why not do so?

[Black Cat]

In the larger context of Houses Indoril and Dres, this stuff is pretty important. But if you wanted to talk about something else, why not do so?

I accept your challenge! But anyway here we go.

There are a few more things about Dres I would like to discuss. Primary among them being just how involved the player will get in the "Dres way of life." I understand that most people who join House Dres will recognize it for slavery. Considering it the "main aspect" of the house, if you will. But how will this mix with Dres religiousness? Will the player be actively involved in worshiping Azura, Bothiah, and Mephala? Or perhaps when the player is finally considered more of a "Dres" and less of an "outlander" they could be adopted by a prominent family within Dres, thus having to pay respects to their ancestors, who have in turn become the player's family. This adoption theory, with a little storyline tweaking and some good writing, might be a better method for advancement in House Dres than sponsership, at least for the player. In this way, you sort of become less of an "evil outlander".

[Hemitheon]

Random Thoughts:

I remember Sload, former HoL, talking about shrines to the Anticipations, like the Saint shrines but with images of A, B, and M.

The idea of fully functioning Daedric ruins didn't receive good reception. The HoL said no.

Their worship of the Anticipations is almost exactly like the Temple.

I do think that Tribunal Temples would be present here, simply because the Tribunal Temple would not amuse House Dres' daedric idolatry if it wasn't directly connected to Almsivi, meaning the Temple would only allow the worship of A, B, and M if they were seen as Anticipations and not as independent from A, V, and S.

There is another option though concerning Anticipation worship. Remember how Bethesda created daedric mini-statues? What if House Dres homes kept those on a shelf, like a shrine? They could be retextured to velothi or iron or whatever.

[Black Cat]

I meant as anticipations, but I think the Dres would only keep worshiping these "anticipations", as opposed to worshiping the actual daedra, to keep the temple/ordinators off their back. I think they would lean more towards the daedra than towards Alma, Sotha, or Vivec. I also think most Dres would know about it, but never say anything. Kind of like Tamriel's worst kept secret.

There is another option though concerning Anticipation worship. Remember how Bethesda created daedric mini-statues? What if House Dres homes kept those on a shelf, like a shrine? They could be retextured to velothi or iron or whatever.

This, if done properly would be a very cool atmospheric effect, and a good symbol of Dres religion.

[blackbird]

(The only way in which Nerevar can be seen as a "founder" of House Indoril is if you say that it's his prestige and fame that allowed his house to gain the power and influence needed to become a Great House, rallying many other minor Houses under his banner. But that would be like saying that Woodrow Wilson founded the USA, since they weren't considered a real world power until WW1.)

Off topic: Oh, I thought that america was seen as a power after the battle against the english in 1814 and the treaty of ghent.
Then you must not have understood what I meant by "world power". It's not "sovereign nation", it's "country that has more influence on most other countries than they in return have on it". This blatant abuse of moderator power because I don't want to derail this thread with more off-topic posts and I find nothing to add to the topic right now. --Gez.
On topic: House Indoril could have used Nerevar and his name to gain prestige and power.

Btw what is the temple's point of view against the worship of the 'good' daedra?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

The idea, as far as it is presented in-game, is that they basically act in the same kind of role as the saints. They are some of the Tribunals many sidekicks. You can pray to them and worship them as much as you want, but in the context of the Tribunal Temple, not as anything superior to the Tribunal.

As soon as you do anything resembling 'foreign style' Daedra worship, the Ordinators can come knocking at your door.

[Haplo]

Random Thoughts:

I remember Sload, former HoL, talking about shrines to the Anticipations, like the Saint shrines but with images of A, B, and M.

The idea of fully functioning Daedric ruins didn't receive good reception. The HoL said no.

Their worship of the Anticipations is almost exactly like the Temple.

I do think that Tribunal Temples would be present here, simply because the Tribunal Temple would not amuse House Dres' daedric idolatry if it wasn't directly connected to Almsivi, meaning the Temple would only allow the worship of A, B, and M if they were seen as Anticipations and not as independent from A, V, and S.

There is another option though concerning Anticipation worship. Remember how Bethesda created daedric mini-statues? What if House Dres homes kept those on a shelf, like a shrine? They could be retextured to velothi or iron or whatever.

What do the letters A, B, M, and A, V, S stand for?

[blackbird]

Azura, boethia and mephala. Almalexia sotha sil and vivec.

[Hemitheon]

Can't help it. Im lazy.

[Túrelio]

Thanks Gez for pointing that out to me.

I believe the Dres are heavily focused on Ancestor worship, and the Anticipations as Ancestors. This is probably different from the way your typical Daedric cults worship them, and maybe with less focus on their destructive aspects(or at least destructive in regards to their society) and more on the benefits of those three.

I'd like the shrines to look a bit different from the regular Tribunal shrines. I'm working on some concepts for them. Along with the others concept art of course.

[Black Cat]

I believe the Dres are heavily focused on Ancestor worship, and the Anticipations as Ancestors.

If this is true, might it be possible for my sub-adoption idea to work?

[Haplo]

I think there's no point to that idea.

[Black Cat]

I think there's no point to that idea.

Alrighty then.

[greendogo]

On a similar note to the talk of the Anticipations, but having nothing specifically to do with Dres or Indoril:
Are the Dunmer stupid? Really, I mean, how can they actively put the Daedric Princes: Azura, Boethiah and Mephala in a "sidekick" role to the three false gods? Daedric Princes are on a completely different scale of power. It's madness I tell you!

Anyways, has there been any particularly good discussion on the subject of ancestor worship? I know the answer is "yes" when it comes to the subject of Necrom. But what about Indoril and Dres (or for that matter the other mainland houses).

[Gez]

Are the Dunmer stupid? Really, I mean, how can they actively put the Daedric Princes: Azura, Boethiah and Mephala in a "sidekick" role to the three false gods? Daedric Princes are on a completely different scale of power. It's madness I tell you!

Did you know that the Moon is 65 000 000 times smaller than the Sun, in volume? That's quite the difference in scale, wouldn't you agree? Even without going into D&D nerdwanks of comparing challenge ratings and equivalent character levels, I'm sure everybody sane would agree that the scale difference in power between the Tribunal and their so-called Anticipations is lesser than sixty five millions.

Yet, the Moon is able to eclipse the Sun entirely. It's madness I tell you! The only explanation is that the Earth is stupid.

[Túrelio]

Ninja Gez says it well. A god on a different plane might whimsically come to stomp out your pathetic life, but Three God-Kings living down the street from you are more likely to get annoyed with you.

Any power that can defend and banish Daedric Princes is worth respecting, and considering that the Tribunal are probably for the most part using their power for the good of their people, you quickly see the benefits of worshiping them rather than the Daedric Princes, which are just as likely to kill their own worshipers if it serves their purpose, and aren't really there whenever you need them.

As for Ancestor worship, I know it has been discussed in several thread, in passing or more directly, I just don't know where they are at this moment. I know there are some people that have a much better understanding of how it will work for Dres. Essentially the way I understand it is that all Dunmer do worship and pray to their ancestors, the saints are part of this worship, and so are the Tribunal. The Dres simply take this to another level, or do it in a different way, and worship the Anticipations as ancestors much like the ancient Chimer did, except that they are associated with the Tribunal now. They probably still go to Tribunal Temples to do this, except that there may be additional shrines to the other Three, or some kind of new combined shrines, that feature the Tribunal and their corresponding Anticipate. Also there could be more overt signs of veneration or respect for ancestors, and family tombs and such. I for get exactly where it is mention, but I recall that the Dres have mausoleums, perhaps just outside the cities.

[greendogo]

Well that's pretty exciting. This means we'll get to see some new trioloths with depictions of the three good Daedra on them, correct?

On the subject of the Dres temples, I don't suppose anyone else would like stained glass windows in the Dres temples would they? Too close to Cyrodiilic churches to the nine divines? I'd think it could create a foreboding atmosphere and still be pretty realistic and beautiful. But then again, this is not a concept art thread...

Has there been any major consensus on any possible quests or main quests for map 6? And on a similar note, which is more important to the image of the Dres, the fact that they are the food providers of Morrowind, or that they're the slave providers? I know that it is very intertwined, but which one is the overriding characteristic?

[Haplo]

Has there been any major consensus on any possible quests or main quests for map 6?

We're too busy worrying about Map 2 at the moment.

[Túrelio]

That is mostly my thoughts, so that doesn't mean there WILL be new shrines at all. Also the regular Velothi set will probably be used for the Temples, so no stained-glass windows.

Not a lot of quests talk has been done on Dres past things like, how you might get to join or whatever, but nothing has been decided.

[Sload]

Are the Dunmer stupid? Really, I mean, how can they actively put the Daedric Princes: Azura, Boethiah and Mephala in a "sidekick" role to the three false gods? Daedric Princes are on a completely different scale of power. It's madness I tell you!

Did you know that the Moon is 65 000 000 times smaller than the Sun, in volume? That's quite the difference in scale, wouldn't you agree? Even without going into D&D nerdwanks of comparing challenge ratings and equivalent character levels, I'm sure everybody sane would agree that the scale difference in power between the Tribunal and their so-called Anticipations is lesser than sixty five millions.

Yet, the Moon is able to eclipse the Sun entirely. It's madness I tell you! The only explanation is that the Earth is stupid.

More importantly its a false assumption. The Tribunal are flesh made divine.

[greendogo]

More importantly its a false assumption. The Tribunal are flesh made divine.

Yeah, they're about as divine as Fargoth. In TES people steal power from the Daedra and Aedra all the time, it doesn't make them divine. In the same way, stealing power from Lorkhan's heart doesn't make you a god, it makes you insanely magical. But not a "real" god. (of course, that depends on what makes a god a "real" god)

[Sload]

Oh really?

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about how people "steal power" from aedra and daedra all the time, but really I'm glad to be educated on the story "in TES" from you.

Despite poorly developed controversy introduced by the Dissident Priests, the Triunes are Gods. The Heart is not some batterypack that gives them magic superpowers, it is the essence of Lorkhan, the martyr who sacrificed himself to give others a place to leap from. The Tribunal "reached heaven by violence," and became enlightened individuals. They are tortured souls, wracked with guilt for their crime at Red Mountain, but they are, indeed, divine beings.

I know my shit.

[greendogo]

I know my shit.

Indeed, but I still disagree.

[Túrelio]

Lorkhan's heart is divine, and what the Triunes took was divine power, not magical power. The magic comes from being Divine, just like the Daedra also deal in magic, so do the Triunes. I believe also Sload is referring to if Lorkhan sacrificed himself, then his heart is there for a purpose. "False" god is thrown around a lot, not just at the Tribunal but also at the Aedra, and even the Daedra, that is a point of perspective. The power they have however, makes them gods, and it is apparent that they have at least enough power to contend with and defeat the Daedra, which by any standards would make someone a god in Tamriel.

[greendogo]

It's a difference of semantics. You can consider them gods as much as you want. All I see are beings that are immensely powerful, however they are orders less powerful than the beings of creation (or "change" in the case of the Daedra). If Almsivi had their own realm/s (such as Daedric Princes have realms of/in Oblivion) instead of only "ruling" a fraction of Tamriel then perhaps it would change my opinion. Because they used the divine power from the heart, I will submit to the fact they had divine power, not that they were themselves divine. In my opinion, if they are gods, then they are gods of the most pathetic variety.

Edit: For the sake of getting back on topic, let's just pretend I didn't open my big mouth in the first place.
Edit 2: Also, I apologize to Sload for patronizing him.

[Gez]

There are no false gods. If I worship a potato, that potato is a god. A true god.

I swear those discussions about divine power levels make it look like it's a supermarket where worshiconsumers look for the highest power level indicated on the label, in ONT.

"I worship Gnaftor, he has a power level of 4.56 ONT." "Hah! You loser! Fnirgul the Great has a power level of 4.57 ONT!" "OMG I CONVERT IMMEDIATELY!!!"

[Túrelio]

I worship the, oh great Potato god! Please, Bring not your soily wrath on to us, and spare Idaho, though they worship false potatoes!


Anyhow, on ancestors, we may see the Dres being more "in-touch" with their own than typical Dunmer perhaps. Like I said before, we might see more examples of such worship and veneration and perhaps here it more in speech as well, like something less corny but similar to "may my ancestors protect me". Could also be things like this as writing on doors or above doors into family homes and such things. I'm taking this on in some of my concept art, so you can see some examples of what I mean when I post that, but more ideas relating to that would be good.

[Chin Music]

You know, I never really thought of Dres as being "anti-Temple" at all. Do they outright reject the Temple, or do they work with it and their own, more ancient beliefs for the sake of... whatever, or is it some genuine mix of the two?

I always thought the Dres were like buddy-buddy (well, not quite) with House Indoril. I guess that they work their ancestor worship and all that into Tribunal Temple worship. It would almost seem unreasonable for the Dres to have no connection to the Temple at all.

But I haven't really been paying attention so I've likely just repeated what's already been made clear earlier.

[Túrelio]

Yea, I mentioned it a bit. I don't think it is anti-temple, they still go to Temples, they still pray to the saints, worship the Anticipations/Tribunal, and I suspect they reject the four "bad" Daedra Princes as well. The main difference, is that they put an emphasis on the fact that they are their ancestors, and I think they probably also go much more often to their family tombs or wherever else to pray to their more immediate lineage of ancestors. Perhaps public shrines to non-saint/god ancestors would be in the Temples or somewhere in town as well.

So not really anti-Temple, but almost the same thing only with more to it, and some slight but noticeable differences. There are a lot of things we could do going along with this idea I think.

[Black Cat]

Ok, so they focus more on the "good" daedra as their ancestors then the other houses do (in general, that is). But this doesn't mean they shun the Tribunal Temple or have any "real" problem with it. Am I correct?

Perhaps public shrines to non-saint/god ancestors would be in the Temples or somewhere in town as well.

This I think was brought up briefly, and again I say it is a great idea. But I now have an idea to go along with it (maybe). I know there are of course priests dedicated to Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia, and their respective anticipations. But what if House Dres had a priest or two in their temples entirely dedicated to the "anticipations"?

[Túrelio]

The Anticipations are the Tribunal as well, so it's kind of the same thing. The difference is that in a Dres Temple it would be more obvious that they are both, so an image of the Tribunal would be complimented with images of the Anticipations. Perhaps they will say their name as well instead, but when they worship them, they are also at the same time worshiping the Tribunal. The Tribunal were anticipated, or preceded by Mephala, Boethia, and Azura. Dres priests might wear something different, and there could be different imagery in the Temple, but it would probably still be, essentially, a Tribunal Temple.

[greendogo]

It sounds like they are a different denomination of the temple, so of course there would be subtle differences. But who they worship or what they believe in (in terms of religion) would remain essentially the same, correct?

[RelinQ]

Okay sorry to slighty raise the dead here, also bare with me, I just read 6 pages so there is alot to talk about.

-----------------------------

Also, I have always felt non-dunmer shouldn't be able to go beyond a certain rank in house dres. Indoril I don't think would care. BTW, at this point the indoril are the most powerful with the hlallu close behind and pretty much everyone else way back. None of the OB shit has happened yet, and they have recovered from the mass suicides.

I think that was an argument for not having the position be open. As in if we did allow any race to become Grand Magnate then they would likely be assassinated before long.

IMO I agree with Thrig in saying that getting to the highest rank should be probably unacheivable for Non-Dunmer, but I also agree with Túrelio, certain races just SHOULDNT be allowed to join fullstop. I reckon races should be seen by House Dres the same way that other factions are, an example would be like:

Dunmer +3
Argonian -10
Khajiit -10

Also can someone tell me about the 'mass suicides' that Thrig mentioned? Im curious to know about it.

The problem with the quest is that giving the player Ordinator armor is bad. You get killed for having that shit, there's no excuse for someone to be just giving it away for you to pretend to be one to kill someone. It doesn't work.

The whole thing is illogical anyway. The Indoril own the Temple. That's how they have maintained so much power over the other houses. Most clergy are loyal to the House. They could find any actual ordinator on the street who would be willing to carry out their dirty work. They don't need a fake one.

I also wanted to comment on this, I have to agree with Sload on this, I dont feel that being in House Indoril still gives you the right to wear Ordinator armour as such, I tend to see Ordinators as somewhat of conjoined subfaction between the Temple and the Indoril. Its almost like a special privellegde or honour (or maybe a high lv ranking except that sort of contridicts what I just said)

I tend to see House Indoril as the most dominant house, despite the fact they have been labelled the "clanless orphan" house. I would tend to think that quests relating to Indoril would be chanllenging, and the quests nearer the end to the 'higest rank' (Indoril Ranks havent been set yet) would be VERY hard.
Saying this I think you would need to be a high ranking TR_Temple member to gain the few highest ranks of House Indoril, just because of their correlation (relationship) with each other, to me that seems logical. complicated, but very logical.
----------------

I worship the, oh great Potato god! Please, Bring not your soily wrath on to us, and spare Idaho, though they worship false potatoes!

Also FULL OF LULZ

[Hemitheon]

When the Septim empire entered Morrowind, numerous Indoril nobles committed suicide rather than submit to a foreign power.

[RelinQ]

I see... O.o

Well they say "drastic times calls for drastic measurments"

Any comment on the other stuff I mentioned?

[Tefiri]

Methinks Dres would be very very similar to the Indoril, yet possibly less iron-fisted about the Temple ruling and more sneaky. Well, more than some....they all happen to be a bit sneaky.

Indoril should just drop kick the mess out of everyone...

[Thrignar Fraxix]

me thinks you should read the thread before posting, they are NOT similar to indoril. Also, only post in dead threads if it is truly constructive and productive. If you had read the thread you would know that what you said wasn't.

[Tefiri]

I didnt realize this was dead....again Im new.....forgiveness..