An Incomplete List of Questionable Lore and Misconceptions

[Sload]

I've noticed a lot of lore thrown around when we have our discussions. "This is so" and "That is that" and "The weren't there" and "They'd never do that" and so forth. It is reasonable that things get twisted and changed until they're wrong, and that ideas or even questions become facts over time. However, in order to remain accurate and unrestrictive, this is a list of things I don't believe are true.

If you have actual evidence that they are true, please post it. If it mostly conjecture, assumption, or guesswork, please don't. Most importantly, I'm not saying everything here is untrue, just that it isn't necessarily true.

• Elinhir is the Crown capital. I believe we went over this in a thread somewhere, but I know for a while people were saying that it was. The only information we have about Elinhir is this from the new pocket guide:
  
  • Ayaan-si, High Prophet of Elinhir, has called upon the "True Crowns" of the north to rebel against Lhotun, and financed a number of forays against the borders in Bergama and Dak'fron.
  So, a man named Ayaan-si sent out a radical message and had the money to attack the Lhotunics. This is probably true of anyone who has the title of "high Prophet" of any major city (as in, blue on Arth's map and seperate worldspace in our mod.) My conclusion is that there is no evidence whatsoever that Elinhir is the capital of the Crowns, or that the crowns even have a capital.
  
  
  The worship of Yoku gods is now illegal in Hammerfell. Therefore, all worship must be done in secret and there aren't any, or there's only one, legit temples to the Yoku gods. Another PGE baby. Here's what the PGE actually says:
  
  • Clavilla, the Queen of Taneth, has tried without success to have the charters of the independent guilds revoked from all Sentinel lands, saying that the accepted worship of Satakal is grounds enough for heresy against the Empire.
  Clavilla Zilla can call for whatever the hell she likes, it isn't going to happen. In Taneth, yes, I expect it is very illegal to dance like a snake and worship or good old Satakal. However, this does not imply at all that the same is true for the rest of Hammerfell. What's more Ayaan-Si probably ain't no High Prophet of Akatosh.
  
  
  
  Hammerfell is based primarily on any culture or even any cultures. Wrong wrong wrong. Hammerfell has things from a buttload of different cultures all around the world, and more importantly, things that were just made up. Hammerfell is not Arabic or Asian or African or any such thing. Hammerfell is Hammerfellian. And that's that.
  
  
  
  This is not a misconception, but rather something I want to be clear. Nothing we say is set in stone. We expand the lore all the time, and for good reason. However, this immediately falls down in the face of Bethesda lore, and if we think there's a better idea, there's no reason not to change it. It only becomes final when it's actually in the game, and then the likelyhood of changing it is equal to the strength of the new lore or coolness of the new idea over the difficulty it would take to change it.
  
  For example, if we finished Rihad and then found a small mention that it is actually somehow majorly different from what we have, if that mention is trivial, unimportant, or outdated, the fact that we just spent a year working on it trumps this minor lore every single time. Inversely, if there's an NPC who was mentioned in lore and we find out they're dead or in Valenwood or something: no problem, we replace them with someone else.

Okay, so the last one isn't a misconception, but I'll be adding more like the first three as time goes on. Post any other psuedolore you want to contest.

[Nomadic1]

I agree with your assessments there

[Lady Nerevar]

i believe that i started the misconception of elinhir being the crown capital when i used teh word in queotes some where. sry! and i agree with what you have listed here.

[Lutemoth]

Quite an agreeable list here, Sload. If I could think of any TR-concieved notions, I'd remark so.. But it looks like you nailed the biggest ones

And the whole Hammerfell being based on earthly cultures is a huge one, but has been around since Daggerfall and Redguard.. They somehow cemented the unfair idea that Hammerfell is simply a second persian empire

[Sload]

Yes, I think your art definitely has the right idea. Everything is just somehow different from what we'd expect to see.

But I am still against optical feelers.

[lb003g0676]

Yer, the last point is most prominent, and often where I fall short. I am looking for one culture to base my works on, when I need several, moulded together. To form...... a completely different culture.


I lack the more japanese aspect i think.

[Adanorcil]

Hammerfellian

Hammerfedlian Unless that was a typo in itself.

The worship of Yoku gods is now illegal in Hammerfell.

I agree, this is wrong. In some places, it is even done openly. The Empire doesn't really care, as long as they can equate the Yokudan gods to their own.

Hammerfell is based primarily on any culture or even any cultures.

I agree, fully.

[Lutemoth]

I am looking for one culture to base my works on, when I need several, moulded together. To form...... a completely different culture.

What I love what morrowind accomplished, in the same dilemma, is take very recognizeable items directly from earth cultures and style it their own. Take some persian throw pillows, paper curtain seperators and style them up a bit; ipso facto, you got yourself original material items

[Sload]

Redguards hate magic and are naturally bad at it

This comes mostly from the fact that the Mages Guild does not have a strong footing in Hammerfell, and that among conservative Crown families, studying under it is betrayal of your ancestors.

The idea that Redguards don't do magic is completely unfounded. Shehai, for example, would be impossible without magic. A major supporting character in Redguard is a very traditional sorceress who only speaks Yoku.

The truth is that the Yoku culture does not embrace necessarily the same magic as the Mages Guild, instead having learned magic their own way. They call the Guild's magic nudrihi (eastern magic), while theirs can be called durahi (old magic). Note that in game, this is not an issue, as they would just have different methods of learning and performing the magic, it would still have the same effects.

Also, aligning with the Mages Guild would be unacceptable for a crown, especially a more radical one, as it is seen as an Imperial institution.

[groza528]

If you have actual evidence that they are true, please post it.

I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked. My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra.

Never played redguard and met the sorceress cited. This also says nothing about redguards being *bad* at magic, but it makes a case for them hating it-- unless you think that practitioners of redguard magic are not "spellcasters."

[Sload]

That would be eastern magic.

Further, citing evidence (and from Oblivion no less), went the way of TESIV not sucking. Duh.

[Jale]

I guess I would call their approach to magic similar to the Catholic Church's approach to astronomy. Navigation by the stars has been accepted since time immemorial... It is just part of life. It is entirely reasonable to do, and nobody could ever call it immoral or anything. Yet when Galileo and his compatriots wanted to explain the movements of the stars in a manner different to an accepted by the Church it wasn't on. It wasn't until 1992 that they accepted it officially and called it a 'misunderstanding'.

What you have here are two branches of the same scientific tree. The Church was totally fine with one branch of the tree, that which had been around for ever and ever and was of use in their culture. The new interloping theories were repugnant because they were different, even though it was just an extension of the accepted science. It is an extreme form of conservatism.

Thats what I see in the Redguards really. They have the magic which they know and is not even considered unnatural in their culture, and then the other branches of the same tree are repugnant because of them being unnatural to them.

Of course thats a fairly general statement. There are blatantly degrees of acceptance...I would put it a bit like Chinese Medicine vs Western Medicine within China. Some places are just going to flat our ignore the Western ones while others might have both in tandem.

</2 cents>

[Sload]

Ald-ruhn is the homestead of House Redoran.

As far as I can tell, this does not appear in Morrowind's dialog (though my search was not thorough, so if anyone knows where it does appear I'd love to hear it), and I know its absent from the texts. Its my impression, basically, that someone just said this at one point and it was accepted, probably based on some sort of slim evidence like "Well the Skar is there" or something.

Ald-ruhn means Old Homestead. As in, the old homestead. Unless it appears directly in dialog somewhere that I cannot find, Ald-ruhn is pretty obviously the ex-homestead of Redoran, not the current one. That is obviously Baan Malur.

[daedren]

As far as I know, Ald-Ruhn is just "the district seat of House Redoran".

Made a quick search for text in the CS and didn't find anything else.
It was a quick search, though, so it's possible that something has passed through.

[MMMowSkwoz]

From dialogue:

"House Redoran is one of the three Great Houses on Vvardenfell. The Redoran prize the duty, gravity, and piety. They believe a light, careless life is not worth living. If you want to know more, go to Ald'ruhn, their seat of power."

"Go to Ald'ruhn, the chief town of the Redoran. They say the council meets under the shell of a giant Emperor crab. The Redoran are proud and haughty, known as great warriors and great worshippers of the Tribunal. Since they love the Temple and Vivec, they cannot love you. The Temple warriors hate the Nerevarine prophecies, and will kill you if they see you. Be careful."

"Ald'ruhn is the district seat of House Redoran, and a large settlement. The Redoran Council chambers are located inside the shell of an ancient extinct giant crab. Tracks lead north to Maar Gan and Gnisis villages and south to Balmora."

From books:

"Only recently open to settlement and trade, most of the island's population is confined to the relatively hospitable west and southwest coast, centered on the ancient city of Vivec and the old Great House district centers at Balmora, Ald'ruhn, and Sadrith Mora."

"Ald'ruhn is the district seat of House Redoran, and one of the largest settlements on Vvardenfell."

"Ald'ruhn, the Redoran district seat, is exceptional, with its distinctive feature being the colossal prehistoric bug shell that has been adapted as the house's council house."


So yeah, plenty of references to it as the district seat/centre, but only the first two seem to suggest it's any more than that (and they're not exactly crystal clear). Of course, there may be more information in the previous games (which I don't have).

[Gez]

I was looking for the reference to this point the other day:

Athyn Sarethi on Bolvyn Venim:
He is a strong leader, and has done great things for House Redoran. How can I explain the hold he has over the hearts of the Redoran people? He brought us back from certain defeat. He moved the council here to Vvardenfell and took our share of the frontier lands. He is a natural leader, born to rule. One only wishes he was just and fair as well as strong.

[Lud]

Couldn't "moved the council to Vvardenfell" equally well be interpreted as meaning that he started Redoran settlement on Vvar and moved a council there to govern it?
Interpreting it as:
"The council here (ie the minor council) was moved to Vvardenfell"
instead of:
"The council (ie: then main council) was moved here to Vvardenfell"

[MMMowSkwoz]

If it's a matter of interpretation, does it really matter as long as we're consistent?

[Sload]

That dialog directly contradicts every other piece of information, which all agree that Ald-ruhn is the district seat of House Redoran.

proposed overview of redoran history:

-times immemorable to 2E 800s: redoran's homestead it ald-ruhn
-2E 800s: the tribunal close morrowind from settlements except for the holy sites. vivec, molag mar, gnisis, small towns like khuul, vos and hla oad continue to exist. they do this because of the rising power of dagoth ur.
-3E 410s: the great material wealth of the caldera ebony and the rising expansionism of house hlaalu puts pressure on the tribunal to open vvardenfell to settlement. they do so, building the ghost gate and leasing the western portion of the island.* Bolvyn Venim convinces the house redoran to invest in expansion into Vvardenfell, moving his council,** or setting up a new one, on Vvardenfell in the original homestead of House Redoran.

*Because of the rather noticable lack of "telvanni hedgewizards" with illegal settlements on Vvardenfell, I propose that this refers to Tel Vos and, later, Tel Uvirith, as well as im sure dozens of imaginary towers that are scaled out of existence. In this scenario, Telvanni has traditionally had the rights to the islands easy of Vvardenfell as part of Telvannis, but they have no rights to land on the actual island itself. Without a lease, they are encroaching on Temple lands.

**I've always imagined Redoran has having several councils, in our mod represented by separate councils at Baan Malur, Ald-ruhn, and Kartur, which already has a council hall similar to the skar. The Baan Malur one would be in charge, but there would be sub-councils of sorts.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I like the idea of multiple councils, and your history is cool.

How does your council system work? The Vvard council is comprised of all 6 of the Vvard Masters. Will all council-members on the mainland be Masters, or just major landowners, as realistically that is probably what most of the Vvardenfell 'Masters' are.

And that's another good argument as to why the Vvard council shouldn't be the main one. "Lord of the Northern Ashlands"? Sweet title. Containing 0 Redoran holdings/useful territory, yet somehow this guy has more sway than a mainland councillor?

[Yeti]

3E 410s: they do so, building the ghost gate and leasing the western portion of the island

Isn't the ghostfence much older than this? [/b]

[Hemitheon]

The Ghostgate was built right after Dagoth Ur reestablished himself.

[Sload]

ingame dialog says its very recent. the gate itself might be much older, because its a shrine, but the fence is not.

[rekuli]

So, a man named Ayaan-si sent out a radical message and had the money to attack the Lhotunics. This is probably true of anyone who has the title of "high Prophet" of any major city (as in, blue on Arth's map and seperate worldspace in our mod.) My conclusion is that there is no evidence whatsoever that Elinhir is the capital of the Crowns, or that the crowns even have a capital.

That depends on how radical, faithful or fanatical the Crowns are (or were). Maybe they decided to have a point of zealous convergence or something like that and chose Elinhir as their indirect "stronghold". This is speculative, however, and there *is* no evidence.
But still, such thoughts of religious matter (or any other kind of believing in something) where a place was intended to be seen as sacred often turned into strongholds, capitals and the like, as shown by real-life history. It could happen in TR, too, but only if all authors consent on a lore-friendly solution.