I have question about Indoril and Dres

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:36 pm

Hey TR, hows it going? I've just got a fairly simple question.

In Morrowind, house hlaalu's main skills were based in stealth, redoran's in combat, and telvanni's in magic. If it has been decided yet, I'm curious to know what House Indoril's and House Dres' skills will be based on

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:02 am

I don't think it's set in stone yet. Indoril would probably be combat and magic (they're a house of clerics and templars), Dres would be combat and stealth (they're a house of traders and raiders). It's not going to fall so neatly in the "warrior, thief, mage" mold, obviously.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:47 am

That's good news, as I would've been endlessly annoyed if they were made into copies of one of the of the other houses. Then again, I have a little more faith in you guys than that. If I ever get promoted I would love to help out with the mainland factions, especially House Dres. Guess I'll just keep working on my showcase.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:05 am

The factions as they currently exist look like this:

Indoril
Attributes - Strength, Agility
Skills - Mysticism, Athletics, Long Blade, Blunt Weapon, Medium Armor, Block

Dres
Attributes - Speed, Willpower
Skills - Hand-to-Hand, Speechcraft, Mercantile, Short Blade, Illusion, Destruction

But of course not only are they subject to change, they almost certainly will.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:42 pm

For some reason, I had expected Dres to be a little more magical. However, they strongly remind me of the houses from Dune, so stealth and combat fit pretty good. <digression> I wonder what House Dagoth's domain was? Magic and Stealth make pretty good sense. </digression>

karpik777 · Post by **karpik777** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:08 pm

greendogo wrote:Iwonder what House Dagoth's domain was? Magic and Stealth make pretty good sense.

In such a case, the six Great Houses would nicely fit with the possible character archetypes

combat - Redoran
magic - Telvanni
stealth - Hlaalu
combat+magic - Indoril (BTW I'd say that personality\strength and willpower would fit my image of them as would restoration and mysticism)
combat+stealth - Dres (it fits both traders and slavehunters, as far as attributes go, I'd say agility and personality)
magic+stealth - Dagoth (they were good mages, but also spies, so...)

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:24 pm

karpik777 wrote:combat+stealth - Dres (it fits bith traders and slavehunters, as far as attributes go, I'd say agility and personality)

Except the Dres are probably the least popular House in the eyes of many of Tamriel's inhabitants.

Personality is too much of a blanket attribute. House Dres is actually said to be lacking in Speechcraft, and it certainly wouldn't employ it near outlanders, which makes its skills in the direction of Mercantile seem strange.

I was actually thinking of the same set up myself, and really making a second stealth etc. specialized House would make the Houses seem too similar: Dres would probably be stealth like Hlaalu, both concentrating on Mercantile, while Indoril would either be the second combat (too similar to Redoran) or magic House. (At least that option would be quite different from House Telvanni).

Edit: and those aren't all the possibilities: Steath Magic and Combat would still be possible, especially as Attributes don't always fall into one of those categories, like Personality which also has Illusion.

karpik777 · Post by **karpik777** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:59 pm

Gnomey wrote:Except the Dres are probably the least popular House in the eyes of many of Tamriel's inhabitants. Personality is too much of a blanket attribute. House Dres is actually said to be lacking in Speechcraft, and it certainly wouldn't employ it near outlanders, which makes its skills in the direction of Mercantile seem strange.

Still, they are merchants. Possibly they could be somewhat more civil during trade disputes, otherwise assuming the "I'm better than you or oyur race for that matter" stance.

I was actually thinking of the same set up myself, and really making a second stealth etc. specialized House would make the Houses seem too similar(...).

I agree.

Edit: and those aren't all the possibilities: Steath Magic and Combat would still be possible, especially as Attributes don't always fall into one of those categories, like Personality which also has Illusion.

It's always an option - though personally I like the setup I posted earlier.

And after some thinking my personal setup for the two Houses would be something like:

Indoril - Personality, Strength (like the premade Knight, the Temple also requires it)
- Medium Armor
- Block (I'd say they consider themselves the shield of the Dunmer people)
- Blunt (a weapon which can also be merciful, though Long Blade is also an option)
- Restoration (to help the needind)
- Mysticism (a Temple requirement and personal preferance)

Dres - Personality, Agility
- Mercantile
- Sneak
- Medium Armor/Light Armor (I don't remember which category the slave hunter armor fell into)
- Spear (a good weapon for the swampy environment)
- ? (perhaps Hand-To-Hand for easier knocking out of freshly-caught Argonians?)

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:31 pm

And after some thinking my personal setup for the two Houses would be something like:

Indoril - Personality, Strength (like the premade Knight, the Temple also requires it)
- Medium Armor
- Block (I'd say they consider themselves the shield of the Dunmer people)
- Blunt (a weapon which can also be merciful, though Long Blade is also an option)
- Restoration (to help the needind)
- Mysticism (a Temple requirement and personal preferance)

Dres - Personality, Agility
- Mercantile
- Sneak
- Medium Armor/Light Armor (I don't remember which category the slave hunter armor fell into)
- Spear (a good weapon for the swampy environment)
- ? (perhaps Hand-To-Hand for easier knocking out of freshly-caught Argonians?)

This is a pretty good layout, but the ones Chin Music provided seem to be well on their way for the time being. One addition I am particularly fond of however is having spear for house Dres, as short blade would be highly illogical in a swampy environment(it has little reach, something you can not afford to sacrifice in a swamp. I would know, I live on the bayou.) I also believe sneak is a good choice for them to. The Argonians aren't going to walk into House Dres' headquarters and apply at the front desk.

Moving on to Indoril. Karpik777 your choices for them are also pretty solid. But I think Chin (Or whoever agreed on the skills we have so far) was going in the right direction with athletics, as ordinators travel and patrol alot.[/quote]

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:42 pm

Dres are the "least popular" because of their general xenophobia and inhumane policies relating to that xenophobia, not because they're bad at interacting with others. Quite the opposite. The Dres are traders by nature as they represent the largest portion of Morrowind's food production. But they differ from the Hlaalu in the sense that they are the great merchants while the Hlaalu are enterprising businessmen.

Good social interaction can be used for more than just getting people to like you too. It's also quite effective at getting people to hate you, and the Dres have been quite successful in that regard. I think Personality is an adequate attribute for them.

If I had to choose an attribute skillset for them, I'd do something like this:
Attributes:
Speed
Personality
Skills:
Mercantile
Short Blade
Spear
Light Armor
Medium Armor
Athletics

As for Indoril, I don't think the skills need to be changed except to maybe make Athletics into Restoration or maybe Conjuration. But I would change the attributes to Endurance and Willpower (Because let's face it, the Indoril have a lot of both).

Edit: Just wanted to explain a few of my choices. I chose Spear not so much that it would be a good swamp-environment weapon, although that is part of it, but also because it seems like the kind of weapon slavedrivers would be given. Standing guard. Prodding slaves occasionally. Kind of gives a feeling of control or supremacy more than other "vicious" weapons like a sword or axe.

I don't think Dres should have Sneak as they aren't thieves or assassins. You don't need to be sneaky to raid settlements and take captives. Just quick. And cruel. Which is partly why I gave them athletics.

I also didn't give them Speechcraft because I think there is more of an emphasis on the Mercantile side of things, and also because I wanted to balance Stealth skills and Combat skills.

Other reason I swapped Athletics out of Indoril was that they probably need more than one magic skill to qualify as a "part-magic" faction.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:04 pm

karpik777 wrote:Indoril - Personality, Strength (like the premade Knight, the Temple also requires it)
- Medium Armor
- Block (I'd say they consider themselves the shield of the Dunmer people)
- Blunt (a weapon which can also be merciful, though Long Blade is also an option)
- Restoration (to help the needind)
- Mysticism (a Temple requirement and personal preferance)

Dres - Personality, Agility
- Mercantile
- Sneak
- Medium Armor/Light Armor (I don't remember which category the slave hunter armor fell into)
- Spear (a good weapon for the swampy environment)
- ? (perhaps Hand-To-Hand for easier knocking out of freshly-caught Argonians?)

For Indoril, I think that Willpower and Strength (or Endurance?) would work better. As for House Dres, I'd say Speed and Agility, or maybe throw Endurance in there. I'd go with athletics for the last skill. I still think that personality isn't right. As I said, Hlaalu are noted as saying that, and I'm paraphrasing here due to laziness: "The Dres are good merchants, but they're not as good as us, because they haven't learned how to make friends."

Also, House Dres doesn't want people to hate them. That would be silly. They just hate other people themselves and don't care what other people think as long as they do the thinking as far away from them as possible. Even if they are natural speakers they don't seem to use the skill much or as well as they could, and there's no point in adding an Attribute that probably won't be used.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:21 pm

Personality and Speechcraft are not one and the same. Personality represents the ability to trade and use illusion magic as much as it does being able to talk with others.

The Dres might not outright want people to hate them, but they certainly hate those people and with an innate skill in communication, interaction with those people could potentially foster enmity a good deal faster than if it were with someone besides the Dres. Sure, it's not like they write letters to outlanders just to make them angry, but when a Dres tells you quite eloquently how much your very presence offends him, you know that he means it. Just because they're bigots doesn't mean they can't be refined bigots.

The exact line is "The Dres know how to make money, but they have not learned how not to make enemies." Which was kind of my point in giving them mercantile but not speechcraft.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:00 pm

That's my point, too. But my problem is that Personality is too much of a blanket term, not that it simply applies.

Chin Music wrote:The Dres might not outright want people to hate them, but they certainly hate those people and with an innate skill in communication, interaction with those people could potentially foster enmity a good deal faster than if it were with someone besides the Dres. Sure, it's not like they write letters to outlanders just to make them angry, but when a Dres tells you quite eloquently how much your very presence offends him, you know that he means it. Just because they're bigots doesn't mean they can't be refined bigots.

That doesn't make sense, though. Speechcraft is about getting people to give the desired reaction to something you say, to put it simply. Unless they specifically want outlanders to hate them, the fact that outlanders do hate them shows that they have bad Speechcraft. And as they rely on trade, I think its pretty clear that they don't want outlanders to hate them, as outlanders would then be less likely to trade with them.

To put it this way, if a complete god of Speechcraft wanted to make a business deal with somebody, he could say that he despises that person's guts to that person's face and still succeed in the deal. The partner might even like him more for having said that.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:51 am

This is turning into a very fascinating discussion. So lets continue.

Chin, half of me can see your opposition to the Dres having sneak. However raiding and capturing are only half the problem. The other side is holding the slaves. Argonians are experts at stealth warfare, and it is only natural this would trickle down to the people. If the Dres guards and slavemasters didn't know the "tricks of the trade" so to speak, its that much easier for slaves to "Disappear". Not only this, but any band of Dres slavers charging through the swamps carelessly would alert Argonian warriors to their presence, and they would prepare what would almost certainly be a solid defense. Believe me, after centuries of being raided, the Argonians are going to be a little more military minded. The purpose of sneaking is to surprise. The ability of surprise is key to raiding. Raiding is key to stealth/combat. Better known as Guerrilla warfare.

On the speechcraft/mercantile issue, I would prefer to see the Dres with mercantile, but without speechcraft. Still I'll leave it to you guys to debate that one. Indoril I'll think some more about.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:52 am

I would rather not wander too far off topic.

The Dres aren't some cornerstore merchant, dealing in whatever little goods they have with whoever comes their way. They produce an essential commodity on a provincial scale. Not only can they choose who they do business with, they don't even have to like them to do it. People need food.

Speechcraft, and to a lesser extent Personality itself, does not necessarily have a positive association. I see Speechcraft, in a very collective sense, less as a way to achieve a desired effect through speech but more the actual ability of communication. A person with low Speechcraft would be as bad at making someone hate him as they were at making someone like him (well, not quite. But the principle is the same). The problem that has occured here is that the two definitions have crossed.

Where you write, "The Dres only have bad relationships with others, therefore they must lack the ability to use conversation to improve relationships." I see "The Dres only have bad relationships with others, therefore they are bad at talking."

I put forward that the Dres would actually be quite good at talking not even so much as in creating business deals but just as a result of being upper class cultural sort of fellows and also because I don't think the Dres are disliked because they are poor conversationalists. I think they're disliked because they're proud, hateful racists. But none of this matters anyway because I don't think they should have speechcraft as one of their favoured skills. But hopefully you can see that Personality is not necessarily such a wrong thing to give them.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:04 am

I would rather not wander too far off topic.

Very well.

I put forward that the Dres would actually be quite good at talking not even so much as in creating business deals but just as a result of being upper class cultural sort of fellows but none of this matters anyway because I don't think they should have speechcraft as one of their favoured skills. But hopefully you can see that Personality is not necessarily such a wrong thing to give them.

So I suppose the speechcraft/mercantile/personality issue is resolved then, unless Gnomey has further points. I do have one more question though. In the grand battle for house power and influence, how well is House Dres doing? I always imagined it went something like this...

1.Hlaalu
2.Telvanni
3.Dres
4.Indoril
5.Redoran

But I could be wrong...

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:26 am

Hard to say, but Indoril still has a lot of influence. The Imperialisation of Morrowind was a huge blow, but before then Indoril was essentially the supreme house. They are still large. They still own a lot of land and cities, and wield a lot of power and wealth, but they aren't what they once were. If they aren't equal to the Hlaalu, they're at least second.

The Dres are probably in the middle. Because while they do have a large and profitable business in being the prime manufacturer of Morrowind's food supply, they are extremely conservative and generally unfriendly and thus have no real aspirations of enterprise and expansion as the Hlaalu do.

After that I'd say are the Telvanni. They wield a lot of personal power, but they are isolationists. They'd rather pursue greater knowledge and strength than get involved in politics, but they command enough power that people tend to leave them be.

And I imagine on the bottom would be the Redoran, likely through no fault of their own as out of all the Houses they have probably endured the most hardship with the Nordic raiders. They are subsistence livers and have no real interest in business and thus have little room for growth. They take an interest in the governance of Morrowind but I feel they just don't command that much authority.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:56 am

A fair tier. I'll go with that.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:19 pm

But it's hard to say how deteriorated House Indoril is at the time of Morrowind. At the time of Oblivion, your chart looks pretty good, though its hard to say whether the Telvanni or House Dres are stronger. I'd actually go with House Dres as second. At the time of Morrowind, however, there's a lot of speculation, as the game didn't give a lot of information about the mainland. I'd say that Indoril, House Telvanni and House Dres are at about the same level, so while House Redoran would be fifth and House Hlaalu would be first the central positions are a bit of a toss-up. Personally I'd go with the same chart as my Oblivion one, but I admit that that's pure speculation.

As for Speechcraft/Mercantile/Personality, I'm pretty sure that Speechcraft wasn't ever really considered for House Dres, so really its just a question of whether Personality should be used because it governs Mercantile or whether it shouldn't be used because its only one of three otherwise unrelated skills the Personality governs. In the end, that's a choice for whoever will end up working on the factions to make.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:28 pm

Yeah, I didn't make any note of the "space" between tiers. Telvanni and Dres are so close to the point where I almost considered making Telvanni above them.

Personality is a favoured attribute for the Imperial Legion, Thieves Guild and Tribunal Temple (among others).

None of those three factions have any favoured skills governed by Personality.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:08 pm

Well, to me that seems to help my point. Personality, when taken by itself, does three things:

-It ups the base disposition with other NPCs (making NPCs think of you on friendlier terms, which seems strange for the Dres; I think we all agree that they aren't friendly people, and it would be strange if everyone acted friendly to them).
-It ups the ability to bargain. While this fits, Mercantile does that just as well, without the other unfitting improvements.
-It ups the ability to persuade people. Here we could argue whether it fits the Dres or not. I'm not quite sure myself. It brings up images of House Hlaalu, which is probably why I don't like it, along with the image of a Dres merchant admiring someone else being strange to say the least, even though "admiring" is probably not supposed to be taken so literally. But really, I think that the Dres would simply skip right to bargaining, which they're good at, and which is in effect Mercantile. They wouldn't care if the customer feels ripped off afterwards, and would be able to make a deal even if the customer didn't like them in the first place. They barter well enough for that to be irrelevant.

Though some of the points do apply to the Dres, in general Personality seems to be used for the personable Factions, serving the function of making people personable. In the Thieves Guild, I can only think of "loveable" Rogues, as Thieves aren't merchants. Illusion works too, though the TG isn't a very magical faction. The Imperial Cult and the Temple both employ missionary work, and concentrate on Speechcraft. As for House Dres, it isn't a personable House, and as such doesn't fit.

But as I said this doesn't really matter, as to be frank I don't think either of us will be convinced either way and this discussion has gone on long enough as it is. As I said, this is for others to decide.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:10 pm

But as I said this doesn't really matter, as to be frank I don't think either of us will be convinced either way and this discussion has gone on long enough as it is. As I said, this is for others to decide.

Then who decides and where are they discussing it? I know House Dres is a little far off (Map 5 and 6 right? God knows how long that will take) but aren't they are working on House Indoril as we speak? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:42 pm

Map6 only. Map5 is the northwest, so it's mostly Redoran (there's some Hlaalu and, of course, Imperial/Common/Nordic as well).

Final decision will be taken by the core, as usual. In the meantime, this brainstorming isn't a bad thing.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:23 am

Thanks MMMowskwoz. And Zalzidrax for the extra bit of info. So what seems to be the consensus, shall we discuss Indoril or Dres? Who has ideas? What would we all like to see?

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:25 am

Honestly I see House Dres as more "stealthy" than House Hlaalu. Hlaalu are more unscrupulous merchants than thugs. Both of them are probably going to engage in clandestine actions, but I imagine Dres as being more "hands-on".

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:49 am

I can see what you mean Zal. House Dres is certainly a lot more shady than House Hlaalu, at least in the upper levels. One thing I am particularly looking forward to with House Dres is owning slaves and possibly a plantation. Imagine all the shady dealings you'd have to go through to make that a reality, especially as an outlander. It would be bloody. Now that I think of it, a plantation/stronghold combination would be really cool, not a huge complex but maybe just a few rows of crops and a slave or two to keep it going.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:27 pm

I have cleaned out the thread, please feel free to discus and brainstorm the Indoril and Dres houses

split of posts preserved in archives.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:01 pm

Zalzidrax wrote:Honestly I see House Dres as more "stealthy" than House Hlaalu. Hlaalu are more unscrupulous merchants than thugs. Both of them are probably going to engage in clandestine actions, but I imagine Dres as being more "hands-on".

What with the way that a large part of House Hlaalu in Vvardenfell was overrun by the Cammona Tong, who are described as really thuggish, act really thuggishly and even have a rank which is called "Thug", (not to mention "Tough", "Kingpin", "Brute"...), and the way that a lot of the members who weren't visibly part of the CT were otherwise corrupted, (I think the only councillors who never seem to show any signs of corruption are Dram Bero, whose a recluse scholar who hardly ever says anything, and Duke Vedam Dren (who is, at least, the technical Grandmaster, though to me it almost seems as though Orvas Dren is the real one...), I'd like to see how House Dres can out-do them.

Now, it might be true that the Vvardenfell branch of House Hlaalu is an exception to the rule, and that it's a bad period of time for House Hlaalu, (as is the case with the Vvardenfell Fighter's Guild), but I think that it'll be hard to distinguish a thuggish House Dres from a thuggish Vvardenfell House Hlaalu. Or a corrupt House Dres from a corrupt Vvardenfell House Hlaalu. But that might just be because I haven't seen any quest designs.

Personally, I can see the Dres as trying to rip people off, especially outlanders, and perhaps having "alternate" sources of income, but the same would apply to House Hlaalu and a lot of other merchants. I also think that House Dres would be ruthless, but again I don't see how or why we'd make them more so than the already often ruthless House Hlaalu. The main difference I see is that while House Hlaalu is adapting to the Imperial culture House Dres is trying its best to stay as it is without visibly breaking any laws, and generally going against the flow. Also, while members of House Hlaalu often seem to live and breathe on money I see members of House Dres as using trade as a means to an end. (An end that isn't (just) getting insanely rich).

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:43 pm

I don't see Dres as being corrupt. The corruption from Hlaalu is either from and/or what causes Hlaalu to be such an easily Imperialized House. Corruption means they don't abide by laws or traditions. House Dres is exactly the opposite of this IMO, they adhere strictly to their own laws and traditions(but not others), and it is why the Empire and others cannot get a strong foothold in them. They don't really set out to break or abide by other's laws, they don't even consider them really. But that doesn't mean anything goes(like Hlaalu), they would likely have strict laws that govern their own affairs and business.

They will probably have some thuggish people, especially the slave raiders, that actually go and capture the Argonians, and the slave hunters, those sent after escaped slaves or criminals destined to become slaves. I can see these thugs being of other races other than Dunmer, they are very mercenary like, and I can see them hanging around Tear for a new raiding or hunting party to form. Actually, I think that any foreigners that do stay in Dres territories, will end up become Dres-ized instead, of course those individuals were probably already of a personality that suited them there. They wouldn't be part of the House of course, just mercs that the House employs.

Tear very well could be the kind of place where you can find anything. Obviously slaves will be there, but I expect many other contraband items are exported/imported from there. If Imperial Legion presence is weak enough, it'll be done out in the open. The biggest factor that smugglers will have to worry about is getting into and out of port with their stuff, not trading in the city, as the Empire probably attempts to control this situation with the Navy, by intersecting and boarding ships. This might also mean that many of the traders/smugglers in Tear, although foreigners, will also be anti-Empire, and get along with the Dres, at least on that subject.

If there is a Foreign Quarter in Tear, then there might also be criminals and people who are hiding from the Empire. Dres wouldn't protect them one way or the other, but other foreigners might, and Tear is probably a hard place for the Empire to officially get into. This is probably were most of the corruption will be, being perpetrated by foreigners, and maybe a few enterprising Dres(as long as it doesn't break Dres law/traditions).

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:39 pm

Yeah, I was talking more about breaking Imperial laws than breaking House laws. They'd probably be very strict about the latter. And when I was talking about House Dres not being thuggish, I meant the high-ranking members. Like TÃƒÂºrelio I'd think that the illegal behaviour would generally come from foreigners who work for the House, or maybe low-ranking members. The high-ranking members, however, would probably stay within legal, though not moral, bounds. (And again, legal for a member of House Dres. Chances are that if you buy a slave you're buying stolen 'merchandise', as I doubt the raids are allowed by Imperial law).

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:21 pm

Yes, but by moral, that would mean that it might not be Imperial morals, but to Dunmer morals they would stay true. I'm sure you meant that.

No, stealing slaves would be a big NO-no in Dres lands, either from Dres or from non-Dres owning slaves there. Slavery isn't underground or criminal in Dres lands, it is exactly the opposite, it is well established and protected. Attempting to steal slaves, to resell or to set free, is going to get someone killed very fast.

Slave raids might not be strictly legal according to Imperial law, but like I said, the Empire isn't able to enforce most of its laws in Dres lands, and the Empire probably isn't proactively stopping them in Argonia. The Navy is probably searching ships, but it isn't illegal for Dunmer to own slaves, and they aren't interested in stopping it anyhow. The Navy is looking for contraband, like moon sugar/skooma, Dwemer artifacts, and rare resources like ebony and glass being shipped without paying taxes. The Dres can go up and down the coast all they want with their slaves, and those ships probably wont risk taking anything illegal. The smugglers would largely be the foreign merchant ships coming in and out of Tear.

Post by **Gnomey** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:46 pm

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote:Yes, but by moral, that would mean that it might not be Imperial morals, but to Dunmer morals they would stay true. I'm sure you meant that.

No, stealing slaves would be a big NO-no in Dres lands, either from Dres or from non-Dres owning slaves there. Slavery isn't underground or criminal in Dres lands, it is exactly the opposite, it is well established and protected. Attempting to steal slaves, to resell or to set free, is going to get someone killed very fast.

Heh, I seemed to have been in a rather vague mood yesterday. Let's see if it passed.

I actually mean our RL morals, though in this case that seems to be the same thing as the Imperial morals. Basically.

And as for the part about "stolen" merchandise, I meant that the slave's freedom was "stolen". The Dres probably view Argonian tribesmen as they view wild Sky Renders or other animals: if they're wild, they're free for the taking and taming. Naturally, stealing an already "domesticated" slave from another owner would be forbidden. In the view of Imperials, however, (I'm guessing) that all "humans" (apparently used as a broad term to describe all "civilized" races, meaning non-Sloads etc.) would have rights, among them the right to (relative) freedom. As such, slave hunters sell illegal merchandise and whoever buys them is dealing in illegal merchandise. Again, with a few exceptions.

Anyway, I'll leave you to pick your way through my liberal use of brackets and quotes...

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:14 pm

Yea, that makes better sense to me. Regarding Sky Renders, what lore does TR have on them(only thing I can think of is the Redguard comic), and what if anything new have them come up with on them?

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:42 pm

TÃƒÂºrelio wrote:Yea, that makes better sense to me. Regarding Sky Renders, what lore does TR have on them(only thing I can think of is the Redguard comic), and what if anything new have them come up with on them?

Tedders calls them Parraptons. That's the full extent of the non-TR-created lore concerning them that can be found outside of the Redguard comic.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:43 pm

And Parraptons is an awful, awful name.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:03 am

Yea, I agree. What about TR created Lore? Like how the Dres domesticate and raise them, or anything along those lines, or has it not really been thought out yet?

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:44 am

We call them Sky Renders. That's the full extent of the TR-created lore concerning them that can be found.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:24 pm

Chin Music wrote:The factions as they currently exist look like this:

Indoril
Attributes - Strength, Agility
Skills - Mysticism, Athletics, Long Blade, Blunt Weapon, Medium Armor, Block

Dres
Attributes - Speed, Willpower
Skills - Hand-to-Hand, Speechcraft, Mercantile, Short Blade, Illusion, Destruction

I quite like the look of that although I think one of the two might be better suited with endurance as an attribute, maybe Indoril.

I think Indoril might be better with restoration than mysticism, only because its a bit harder to train and no other house faction really uses it, eitherway mysticism seems a bit odd. Maybe its because I keep thinking of Ordinators

I also think House Dres shouldnt have speechcraft, its seems to be to... conflicting with how Dres is seen by other houses or people.

Anyway to slightly go offtopic:
What are the ranks for the Houses? Im still eager to know.

So far we have a pretty decent ranking system for Dres House but nothing listed for Indoril.