Name Dedefecation

[Gez]

Both.

[Tyrion]

Something like Dun Nadul would work, it sounds ominous and impressive so it fits the landscape. It's literal translation aside that is.

[Andres Indoril]

If we think of Nadul as valley it would be Cursed Valley still. So I see nothing wrong. Except for the cliche translation.

[Aeven]

I doubt most of our players pay that much attention to the meaning of the names of the places they visit.

[Tyrion]

You underestimate our players.

[Adanorcil]

If we think of Nadul as valley it would be Cursed Valley still. So I see nothing wrong. Except for the cliche translation.

That doesn't matter. Ideally, it shouldn't be obviously translatable to anything and certainly not to something like "Valley of Death".

Dun-Nadul has the problem it still has the particle "dun" in it, which is "dark", which is still rather meh. (Also, it is name building-block, which is bad. But I don't know if you were consciously thinking about that when you made up the name, Gez.)

There is nothing really wrong with English names either, as long as they are not obviously idiotic such as "Valley of Death". "Valley of Ghosts" isn't entirely bad, but not quite there yet. The problem with English names is that if we chose such a name, the name would actually have to fit well: a couple of tombs would not warrant the name "Valley of Ghosts".

RelinQ: Don't use building-block words like "mer" and "vir". They inhibit creativity, often sound quite strained and suggest that the Dunmer as a people only know about five words. Also, avoid syllables with "sh"; they are a staple of fantasy nomenclature and are very uncommon in Dunmer names.

[Aeven]

Nadul Baluhr

[Tyrion]

How about "Death Valley"???

What's the name of the monastery? I don't think it was specified in the .esp either? I feel as though the area needs a less threatening more geographically descriptive name (or some other thing) and the canyons containing the tombs should get their own names. Think of the foyada or the canyons you visited to be confirmed as the Nerevarine. They're only named in dialogue but they fit within larger geographic regions.

[jonarus_drakus]

This is meant to be some sort of rocky mountain canyon with a bunch of tombs in it right? (at least going by what i've read here, correct me if I'm wrong)

Well how about some sort of Dunmer variation of 'spirit stone' valley/canyon?

[Hemitheon]

Nahuduhn
Nemasan
Velosdoun Nir
Cardha'as

there's a few options

Spirit Stone : Cardhobal

[Adanorcil]

Nahuduhn
Nemasan
Velosdoun Nir
Cardha'as

there's a few options

Spirit Stone : Cardhobal

No building-bricks.

How about "Death Valley"???

I don't think you'd find support for that in all of Rebuilt Tamriel.


A few random thoughts:

• It should not be threatening or insinuate like "haunted valley".
• Unless there is really a significant amount of tombs there, it should not have a name that directly refers to ancestors or the like. Even then, I think it may be a rather bad idea, since it would detract from Necrom's status as sacred burial place.
• What is the monastery called?
• Does the valley really need a name at all?
• If yes, I agree a normal, geographic denotation would be more appropriate than something else.

[Hemitheon]

The valley may not need a name but the region does. There is still a discussion on whether the monastery should even be there considering there already is one a few cells away. And the first 3 names I offered were made in my head and not from building blocks, though I guess Velosdoun may look a bit like Veloth.

[Tyrion]

How about "Death Valley"???

I don't think you'd find support for that in all of Rebuilt Tamriel.

*cough* sarcasm *cough cough*

I think the canyon is unique enough to warrant a name mentioned at least in some local dialogue if nowhere else. Although it shouldn't have much of an influence on the region's name.

[Gez]

(Also, it is name building-block, which is bad. But I don't know if you were consciously thinking about that when you made up the name, Gez.)

I just went with stuff that had been posted before (Nardur), and tried to make it sound a bit like Sul-Matul. I tried other syllables than "dun" before but none that sounded nicely, even (especially) close ones like "Tun-Nadul" (bleh), "Dum-Nadul" (yech), "Dan-Nadul" (bleargh), etc.

And I don't think nadul means valley. I don't know what nadul means, but I made it on the spot to twist the sonority of "nardur" into something that sounded better and more Dunmeri to me. Does nardur mean something? Maybe, I don't know and I don't care, to be honest. It's better if it doesn't.

[blackbird]

Why death valley shouldn't be used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley

[Sload]

why should it even get a name

[Theo]

Yes, it was just a working name for this claim, which I originally refered to as valley of dead kings and modelled it after real-world necropolis in Egypt [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Kings.[/url]
That is where this working name comes from, but any hidden reference to Egypt would be cliche and out of place here, so I suggest not to name this place similarly.

On mainpage map this area is called 'Roth Rothryn', but I am not sure what it is supposed to be, nor how mainpage map is relevant.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

why should it even get a name

Exactly. Someone; Ada, Hap, whoever, just make an executive decision and get this over with. This is a trivial non-name that will appear in-game all of 0-1 times.

As Theo says, this was just his pet-name for the claim, and the region already has the decent name of Roth Rothryn. The name for this thing is just a minor landmark thing, not a city or anything. It won't even appear on maps. Anything that doesn't sound silly will do, and is not worth a page of discussion.

[JoshthePirate]

Is anybody else impressed by Sload's douchebaggery?

I'd suggest avoiding using anything that sounds like Caradhras of Tolkien fame, period.

Annnndd to weigh in on something a few pages back... naming the island "Van" makes a whole lot of sense, and it's not too busy.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Annnndd to weigh in on something a few pages back... naming the island "Van" makes a whole lot of sense, and it's not too busy.

That's already been changed to Vahn and I see no reason whatsoever to change it again.

Also, what BC said.

[JoshthePirate]

Vahn, Van, that's pretty close. I was too late with that anyway.

I realize that popular opinion is now against giving the "valley of the kings" any sort of name for itself. I was merely making suggestions against words. Any misunderstanding is my fault for only writing three sentences. Anyway, it's not like I had anything constructive to say. I'm not so much a helper. I'm a tear-downer.

[blackbird]

Oak town is called Moraruhn on the map 6 file.

[Gez]

That's two overused blocks. We need to change "mora" and "ruhn".

[RelinQ]

You may be 100% correct there Gez but at least its better than Oak Town...


"Ooh look at me I can create a generic name, Oak town, lots of uniqueness in that"

Overused:
Bal
Mora
Ruhn - Thats usually associated with Redoran anyway isnt it?
Tel - as is this with Telvanni

What type of town is 'Oak Town'?
looking at the faction control map Im confused who is in charge of it, Its in the Kragenmoor District, Im guessing thats Hlaalu... hmm

I think it needs to be an all out, 1 word unique name like how 'Suran' is.

'Nardur' sort of works by itself, although I sort of dont like the idea of having another town name starting with 'N'

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

It's infinitely worse than Oaktown. Oaktown is at least something that a creative mind 'came up with', wheras Moraruhn is the kind of mindless crap that caused the need for this thread in the first place.

Frankly, I'd put an embargo on the use of any 'Dunmer' word in any town name at any point in the future, unless it sounds justifiably decent. (e.g. Ranyon-ruhn sounds nice, and is half original)

Of course, Oaktown must change because it's in English which is ultimately preposterous, and even if not unprecedented (Mournhold), certainly worth changing.

Anyway, I'm not giving any suggestions because I haven't seen it's exterior, and I need to know what a town feels like before I'd wanna name it, because I'm weird like that. But just don't do something crap, and don't release anything until we're sure it's named right. That is, after all, the purpose of a thread called 'Name Dedefecation'.

My ultimate point is, that my opinion is that a name should be come up with not on the basis of other names or 'Dunmer words' or some crap like that, but should be an almost 'artistic' (this sounds preposterous, but I don't care) thing. Just say something that sounds right, and is right. Don't justify it, just make it cool, and not crap. If you've got a cool name, that paints the right picture, just say it. If it sounds crap, we'll say so. Just don't let's have people sitting around and tweaking ideas back and forth like we are doing over 'Valley of Death' until they become meaninglessly overdone.

[Tyrion]

I guess other things take precedence over this, yes. Since the region already has a name the details can wait until detailing and dialogue are added anyway.

I'd be more concerned whether that monastery is getting a map marker.

[Gez]

You may be 100% correct there Gez but at least its better than Oak Town...

No.

See, we have this word that means "forest", and it's used in Balmora ("Stoneforest") and Sadrith Mora ("Mushroom Forest"). Cool. So then naturally we had people who went through all the English names and changed all forests, groves, trees, oaks, saplings, and so on by "mora". So Dragon Grove? Akamora. Oak Town? Moraruhn. And so on.

First, it is the zeroth degree of originality. "Random name generator said this city was named Groinpunch, which is a name that sucks, so we'll name it Blarghuplth because that's Dunmeri for Groinpunch and it won't suck anymore once it's in Dunmeri." No. It doesn't address at all the issue of a name being sucky, it just makes it suckier.

Secondly, it's stupid. It is literally taking the forest for the tree, since you have Oak Town (if that name were to be kept, it would hint about a city built around an oak, look at Chorrol) and you turn that into "Foresthome". It conveys the idea that Dunmeri as a language contains about a dozen word. "How do you say 'forest' in Dunmeri?" "Mora." "What about 'tree'?" "Mora." "Uh, 'grove'?" "Mora." "'Plank'?" "Mora." "'Firewood'?" "Mora. Wait, molagmora!" That's just awful.

Thirdly, it's overused. It's fine when you have a few here and there. Everyone is okay with Balmora. It's a good name, it sounds nice. But when you have Balmora, Ruhnmora, Gubmora, Zdrulumora and Toblodoumora, then it just becomes ridiculous -- all of them do. It's turned into an unfunny joke.

So, no. Moraruhn is not better than Oak Town. And, whether you translate the name or make up a new one from whole cloth, DO NOT USE 'MORA'.

[Sload]

you guys plz think for a second okay... oaktown and moraruhn are both shit. arguing about which is more shit is a complete waste of your times. k

Is anybody else impressed by Sload's douchebaggery?

Twat, I cunt hear you. I have an ear infucktion, random stranger.

[Arthmodeus]

Sooo, do you think it would be feasible to just make up the rest of the Dunmeri language seeing as how this seems to be a huge problem? You know, just enough to make a more enhanced system for nomenclature?

[Hemitheon]

How bout a town with a saint name in it? We have Ayemar which is a ref to Ayem. Why not Rilmasa or Velosen or Olmisan.

[Gez]

Sooo, do you think it would be feasible to just make up the rest of the Dunmeri language seeing as how this seems to be a huge problem?

Feasible? Yes, if you're dorky enough to deem yourself the next Tolkien. Desirable? Oh hell no!

Here's how it should be done:
1. Make up a name that sounds good and fit with other Dunmer name.
2. (Optional, only do this step if you're a dork) Assign a meaning to the name.

But do not, under any circumstance, do the reverse. This way only lies kludgy names that sound bad. I know, I've even been responsible for a few and in hindsight I can only say it was a bad idea.

We have a "dunmeri thesaurus" somewhere. Most of the words in it have been made up by someone (maybe Majra? I'm not sure, it was before my time) and they don't fit at all with the words coined by Bethesda.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

We have Ayemar which is a ref to Ayem.

No it's not.

But I agree with yer principle, anyway. A name I'd mentioned way back at some point was Rilmethren, or something like that.

[Hemitheon]

Here's how it should be done:
1. Make up a name that sounds good and fit with other Dunmer name.
2. (Optional, only do this step if you're a dork) Assign a meaning to the name.

But do not, under any circumstance, do the reverse. This way only lies kludgy names that sound bad. I know, I've even been responsible for a few and in hindsight I can only say it was a bad idea.

We have a "dunmeri thesaurus" somewhere. Most of the words in it have been made up by someone (maybe Majra? I'm not sure, it was before my time) and they don't fit at all with the words coined by Bethesda.

Hi, my name is Hemitheon and I'm proud to be a dork.

Also that thesaurus is so bad there is no word for it. It's unrealistic and bumpy.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Hi, my name is Hemitheon and I'm proud to be a dork.

Also that thesaurus is so bad there is no word for it. It's unrealistic and bumpy.

Exactly, that's the kind of words we don't like.

Unlike that, however, your work for the Lost in Translation (presuming that's what you mean?) quest was all based on made up words that sounded good, right? Yes, they had internal logic, but they were created based on what sounded pretty, and that makes it cool.

Trying to externalise that logic might be somewhat less cool. So even from your language, I don't think we really wanna be seeing any 'Moraruhns' even then. It certainly shouldn't be seen as the "solution" to a "problem" as Arthmodeus was saying.

[Arthmodeus]

That's what I was saying, though. If the language was expanded, we wouldn't be worrying about this. Whether the words are aesthetically pleasing or not is up to the creators since it's a constructed language. How is this not a solution?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Well, just the things Gez was saying about formulaic thinking etc.

'Moraruhn' is never a good solution, even if it sounds nice based on a nice language. (After all, Mora and Ruhn are two generally accepted 'nice words' from the official Dunmeri language. They're not ours.)

It's as much the mindset that produces 'Moraruhn', 'Maar Mok', 'Gah Ouadaruhn', 'Gah Ruhn' etc. that is a bad thing, to my mind, as the name itself.

[Arthmodeus]

Names of cities always have meanings though. That's why they're named. And if we have a large list of aesthetically pleasing words we can make shit look cool and varied while having a bit of meaning behind it for the anal-retentive people like me.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Rilmasa

I like this.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Names of cities always have meanings though.

Debatably.

But anyway, it's a taste thing, then. And that's cool. I have nothing against names with the odd bit of meaning to them, of course (like I say, I like Ranyon-ruhn, for example). It's just that when, as Gez says, the meaning becomes the be-all and end-all over the sound, texture and image of the name, that we lose out. After all, a dictionary-based naming system won't turn up 'Gnisis' or 'Suran', that's for sure.

[Gez]

Names of cities always have meanings though. That's why they're named.

But sometimes that meaning is lost. Sometimes it doesn't have a meaning anymore. For example, Istanbul. It's meaningless as is. Its etymology is a deformation of a Greek phrase meaning "it's the city". It had other names before (Byzantium, Constantinople...) but when it was conquered by the Turks you had basically this exchange:
"What's this place called?"
"It's the city."
"Cool. We've captured the city named "It's the city"."

Other example, Paris. What does it mean? Nothing! The name is traced to a local tribe that was called the Parisii. Cool, so Paris means "city of the Parisii" -- but then, what does "Parisii" mean? Same thing for London. Nobody knows for sure what it means. What is sure is that it isn't a word in English -- it's a name, alright, but it has no meaning outside of being that name.