q1-73-Mis

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:19 pm

In this case, I don't think that we need to hold the player's hand. As long as they're told not to harm the NPCs, it's their responsibility to keep that NPC alive. If they do not succeed in that objective they have failed their mission, and as such the quest. I thought you wanted these quests to not be like Oblivion, where faliure is next to impossible. In Morrowind, players are told their objective and are expected to remember it, no matter what happens. And if they don't, they can either except defeat or reload. It's as simple as that.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:13 pm

I also don't like the "impossible to fail" idea. Here are my suggestions:

1. Overall, you're allowed one screw up. The first time you screw up a quest, you are given the punishment. It is made very clear then that if you screw up a second time you'll be out on your ass. If you screw up a second time, eveyone goes hostile and you're kicked out.

The punishment
You are given a special dagger (unique steel dagger with script) and are told to travel to shrine X (some shrine to Molag Bal). When you reach the statue of Molag Bal in the shrine you must cut off a piece of your flesh and place it on the altar (this is done by scripting when equipping the dagger near the shrine). You lose Y points of endurance permanently (I'm thinking 5?). The flesh then appears in your inventory and you must place it on the shrine (by activating the shrine - this then removes the flesh from your inventory and enables an identical one on the shrine which you cannot pick up). You can then go back and continue the quest line.

2. You can fail the 'convince Draan Solobar' quest by saying the wrong things. If you do, he will attempt to kill himself, but Salms Alen will step in an paralyse Draan before you can do anything (scripted). Perhaps there could be an opportunity to convince Salms not to tell anyone that you screwed up?

3. If you killed the Witchhunter, that's a screw up and you need to find another enemy to sacrifice in the later ritual (quester can add some generic enemy).

4. If Adryn Seloth is dead, you will need to kill some generic NPC in a town somewhere (to be added by quester) to get Golamus' help. They should be in the open near a guard so the player has to lure them away to kill them or get caught (or taunt them).

5. If you killed Ratagos, that's a screw up and again you get directed to the generic enemy for the later ritual (it can be the same one since you can't kill both Ratagos and the Witchhunter).

6. If you kill Llorys when you have to command him for Golamus, you get kicked out (because Llorys is a member).

I think that covers most of the contingencies, but essentially you get one opportunity to redeem yourself or you get attacked.

Also, I vote for the removal of the slave bracelets, the time limit on returning to the base, and the second option for betrayal. They don't add much.

Thoughts? If people agree to those points, I think this line is pretty much designed.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:47 pm

"Also, I vote for the removal of the slave bracelets, the time limit on returning to the base, and the second option for betrayal. They don't add much."

These can all be fixed with dialogue. The player can be told that he/she will never meet ALL the members of the cult because they are hidden everywhere as spies or saboteurs, so the player is always being watched. Any screw up and the cult will know immediately.

Maybe if the player talks to some influential figures about the cult without the cult's expressed permission, the player can get a journal that states a Cult spy has seen them. Later on the player gets attacked by an assassin sent to execute him. And to be a real bitch, the assassin could be geared with extremely dangerous weapons and spells.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:58 pm

Hemitheon wrote:Maybe if the player talks to some influential figures about the cult without the cult's expressed permission, the player can get a journal that states a Cult spy has seen them. Later on the player gets attacked by an assassin sent to execute him. And to be a real bitch, the assassin could be geared with extremely dangerous weapons and spells.

Would that not just prevent you from doing lots of other quests in the game? I don't think players would appreciate having to ask permission every time they want to speak to someone important for a quest. But perhaps that could be worked in as part of the 'destroy the cult' option?

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:21 am

Hemitheon wrote:Maybe if the player talks to some influential figures about the cult without the cult's expressed permission, the player can get a journal that states a Cult spy has seen them.

You can speak to whomever you like, but if you start talking about the cult you're in trouble.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:40 am

Punishment for failure is not so extreme even in the vanilla factions. Many people aren't as "in-tune" with roleplaying and lore elements as others, and basic things like permanent stat reduction would be enough to have them load an earlier save.

I don't think that there should be NO risk of failure, but seriously, "failure" is typically represented in quests by your own death. Failing for picking the "wrong" dialogue choices? You would have to endure some sort of punishment for this sort of thing, but never anything as extreme as permanent stat reduction or being expelled entirely.

Being expelled from a faction usually comes as a result of breaking one of the faction's rules. This typically involves the player's direct interference, stealing, killing things they are not supposed to. Is it really reasonable to outright expel players if they do not break any rules? If you are absolutely dead-set on keeping the risky things like Command Humanoid escorts and being attacked for wrong dialogue choices, then each and every one of them needs some sort of backup plan if you fail, a way to conclude the quest. If the quests were different, if their failure had to involve the player's direct interference or at least a reasonable level of expected player action, then a "second chance only" system might work.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:03 pm

I understand you want to discuss most of the aspects of the Molag Bal cult, but if we continue like this we won't get it out of design. I would like it if you all gave the designer(s) of this claim some breathing space. Then they can design some of the quests differently based on your opinions. After they have done that, you all have one last change to comment on the design before it is sent to claimed. There is no point in discussing it endlessly.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:18 am

Yeah sorry about that, the topic kind of wandered into the realm of opinion there.

I don't really have any experience in quest development so I'm not sure how much of quest making here is design and how much is left up to the modder's own talent and judgement and how much is caught in testing. Having no personal experience I tend to lean toward a solid design first.

I can only hope some of my urges are heeded.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:47 am

Anyone know where IP has gone? He hasn't logged in for over a week.

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:47 pm

Sorry, thought this was considered finished, I'm taking a pause from TR. But since this is still my responsibility I'll reply to the things said, and fix the file (in a few days or so).

1. In the joining quests, You say that the vampire you kill should be the only monster in the Ruinous Crypt. There are already 5 vampires placed there.
I figured the quester would take care of that when the time comes.

2. How does the player act as a spy/saboteur to the IC/IL/Temple? Why are only TR versions counted?
There's supposed to be a separation with the mainland, plus the cults spies wouldn't know about the players mainland involvements. The whole things is just a realistic precautionary method of the cult, it's just for flavor.

3. I guess the slave bracelets are no longer part of it since the slave rank is gone?
Yep. If there is still mention of them the quester can just ignore it.

4. In the 'proving loyalty and faith', give a number for the number of mushroom to be brought. 'Every single one' means the player won't know when they've finished, and how would Adryn Seloth know how many there were in the cave anyway?
Oh... Hadn't thought about that. Well there aren't really that many mushrooms in the cave since the cave doesn't exist. The mushrooms are located in the slave holding quarters that should be enough.

5. Helmet with Blind spell won't necessarily blind the player (if they resist magicka)
In my opinion this is a small risk I'm willing to take, unless making a script isn't too difficult. Like the boots of blinding speed, something like that.

6. What purpose does the 'expulsion after 2 weeks away' serve? Personally, I think it would just be annoying and not add anything to the line.
If you want the details, you can read the discussion about that from before, I've forgotten why again exactly. On one point it is realistic, though on another it does force the player to roleplay in a specific manner. In my opinion the realism is just a bit more important then the inconvenience.

7. What happens if you screw up the Draan Solobar quest (2nd enforcer quest)? Does he kill himself? (How about Salms Alan casts a paralysis spell if you fail to convince Draan?)
Don't kill Draan Solobar.

8. The Robe and the Dagger you get for becoming a Cantor are too uber.
Rewards are up to the quester, I tried asking for better rewards a few posts earlier, but that didn't work out exactly.

9. What happens if you kill the Witchhunter at any point?
In that case you're screwed, reload the game. I think it's explicitly mentioned not to kill the Witchhunter, or maybe you get a journal message saying you failed, etc...

10. Swearing allegience to Golamus/Llorys: what if Adryn Seloth/Mediloie were killed by the Witchhunter?
I though I included some sort of fix for that already?

11. The 1st Warlock quest heavily involves Ratagos. What if he's already dead? Does it really need to be Ratagos anyway?
It's Ratagos because I wanted to include previous ideas already thought up for the cult + having Ratagos should offer a little more effect to the questline, since it's better then some random religious guy who isn't mentioned otherwise.

12. When betraying Llorys, what if you accidentally kill him?
Then you're screwed again.

13. I agree that the second betrayal option doesn't need to be there.
Well, I don't know. If the majority agrees then fine, but otherwise it does add a last chance of 'redemption' which is nice imo.

There are also numerous other minor discrepancies, such as the Draan Salobar quest still being more or less identical to the Abeshnal quest despite your agreement with my reccommended change.

I did implement quite a few of the changes you proposed, but admittedly not all.

I still think there are a lot of issues to be addressed if the player kills any one of those people accidentally. I can only see two options:
1. Expulsion for any failure to complete the quest correctly.
2. A large number of contingencies built in that allow the player to continue (and advance?) anyway.

Yeah, I do understand that all the screwing up options are a problem, but it would be too much work for this already huge questline to make a bunch of back-up routs. The way I put the different questline ideas together the whole thing turned out to be very linear. Linearity has some good and some bad sides, so yeah.

So I'd go for 1. I know it's not that great, but not all questlines can be super continguous.

If somebody still plays morrowind, its becaues they read dialogue, love depth and are not stupid people who spend all day blowing up people senselessly in some fps game with no story.

So if we treat the audience that this mod is going to as smart people, I'm sure they wont stuff up a quest by not trying or go off and start killing essential npcs senslesly (sp?)

I agree with that very much. When putting the different ideas together I was lazy, relying on the common sense of the player.

I'd say that the issues are, put simply:
1. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with, who are essential for later quests.
2. There are NPCs which you can be/are forced into combat with.

The problems associated with these respective issues are:
1. The risk of the NPCs death in these situtions is quite high, and as they are required for later quests or for progression of the current quest for story reasons, their death effectively leaves you "stranded" in the questline, unable to advance any further.
2. There have been no alternative methods of completion proposed for these quests should the NPC in question die. For NPCs who are not required for later quests, it is not out of the question to have them die, there just needs to be an alternate method to conclude the quest and move on. So as it currently stands, the deaths of these NPCs also leave you stranded.

My proposed solutions:
1. Don't put these NPCs in any situations where there is a reasonable risk of their accidental death. They can still be hostile, but in that case the thing that you must do to them must carry a 100% chance of success and be clearly explained to the player. If they are made non-hostile in certain situations, then you might have to do something more complicated to them, but they must not be allowed to become hostile.
2. For NPCs that are not essential for quests later in the storyline, but whose life must be preserved for the current quest, there should be an alternate method of concluding the quest should they die. This could be anything ranging from being directed to an alternate quest completion method for less/no reward, being forced to perform a menial task to compensate for your failure, or direct punishment within the faction such as a damage skills effect, disposition/reputation drop, or blocking the use of services.

How's about, the player gets a journal message suggesting they screwed up, the questgivers repeatedly tell them not to screw up, and the player can just reload the game. Once again, this questline is simply very linear, let's say it's an exception, not the rule.

Btw, wasn't Vanilla very linear as well?

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:03 pm

Sorry for double post, couldn't edit.

1. Overall, you're allowed one screw up. The first time you screw up a quest, you are given the punishment. It is made very clear then that if you screw up a second time you'll be out on your ass. If you screw up a second time, eveyone goes hostile and you're kicked out.

The punishment
You are given a special dagger (unique steel dagger with script) and are told to travel to shrine X (some shrine to Molag Bal). When you reach the statue of Molag Bal in the shrine you must cut off a piece of your flesh and place it on the altar (this is done by scripting when equipping the dagger near the shrine). You lose Y points of endurance permanently (I'm thinking 5?). The flesh then appears in your inventory and you must place it on the shrine (by activating the shrine - this then removes the flesh from your inventory and enables an identical one on the shrine which you cannot pick up). You can then go back and continue the quest line.

Problem: The only other MB shrine in all of Map 1 and 2 lies all the way over near Tel Ouada, and might be used in other quests. Other then that, yes.

2. You can fail the 'convince Draan Solobar' quest by saying the wrong things. If you do, he will attempt to kill himself, but Salms Alen will step in an paralyse Draan before you can do anything (scripted). Perhaps there could be an opportunity to convince Salms not to tell anyone that you screwed up?

I'm thinking this might overcomplicate things... And the first few quests are not supposed to be all that special, so I'm not sure.

3. If you killed the Witchhunter, that's a screw up and you need to find another enemy to sacrifice in the later ritual (quester can add some generic enemy).

Well... I guess this could work, sure. I just don't want to overcomplicate things further with all the extra variables. But yeah that could work.

4. If Adryn Seloth is dead, you will need to kill some generic NPC in a town somewhere (to be added by quester) to get Golamus' help. They should be in the open near a guard so the player has to lure them away to kill them or get caught (or taunt them).

Sure why not. Though what does Adryn have to do with this?

5. If you killed Ratagos, that's a screw up and again you get directed to the generic enemy for the later ritual (it can be the same one since you can't kill both Ratagos and the Witchhunter).

No. I don't agree with doing this twice. Having two backups would make the final quest too easy, it is the final quest after all.

6. If you kill Llorys when you have to command him for Golamus, you get kicked out (because Llorys is a member).
Yes, the player can just reload.

I think that covers most of the contingencies, but essentially you get one opportunity to redeem yourself or you get attacked.

Just a question, wouldn't the punishment quest have to be reckoned with for every single quest in the qiestline?

These can all be fixed with dialogue. The player can be told that he/she will never meet ALL the members of the cult because they are hidden everywhere as spies or saboteurs, so the player is always being watched. Any screw up and the cult will know immediately.

Maybe if the player talks to some influential figures about the cult without the cult's expressed permission, the player can get a journal that states a Cult spy has seen them. Later on the player gets attacked by an assassin sent to execute him. And to be a real bitch, the assassin could be geared with extremely dangerous weapons and spells.

I'd have personally liked this idea, but the cult has been designed as low-key and has tried to avoid uber as much as possible. I'd be for this kind of uber but it wouldn't be congruent with all the "under-uberness" of the cult.

---

Okay, so I'll wait for the reactions, then implement most of the points made by MmmowSkwoz, fix up the document and then that'll be it?

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:58 pm

That'll be it. Great to hear from you again, immortal pigs!

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:05 pm

All that sounds good, IP. About the punishment quest, you only do it once. There are many opportunities throughout the questline to screw up. The first time you make a mistake, you do the punishment quest, the second time, you get kicked out. Also, the other shrine being far away is good - it's supposed to be unpleasant.

If you get that all summarised, then Molag Bal is done. Wahoo!

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:23 pm

Okay I'm working on the fixes, but just one more thing about the punishment quest;

Would it work like this:

If you fail any quest [meet parameter] you get the "Fail" journal. Which triggers the punishment quest.

Then if you fail you get kicked out.

---

That would mean making a "Fail" journal + a "Kicked Out" journal for nearly every single quest!

Plus, every "punishment" quest would have to be slightly altered to give the right journal message allowing the player to go to the next quest.

That's actually a lot of extra work for a feature that can be replaced by "just reload the game".

So what are your thoughts MmmowSkwoz?

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:54 pm

This is how I saw it:

Each journal ID has an entry for "I have failed the quest". If you fail, the journal for that quest updates to this value, ending the quest. Then when you return to the quest-giver, if you have failed then the punishment quest is initiated.

Only one journal ID is required for the punishment quest. It's no more complicated than a standard quest.

To clarify, failing any quest does not initiate the punishment quest immeadiatly - it updates the normal journal for that quest. The punishment quest is then initiated when returning to the quest-giver.

Have I misunderstood something?

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:37 pm

Just some thoughts about vampirism relating to the MBC:

1. The cult is fairly friendly to vampires, so being one should not prevent you from joining. In fact, I think this is the only TR quest line you can do as a vampire (on Map 1 at least). Therfore, there should be a route to join as a vampire: something like intimidating Draan Solobar so he tells you about Adryn Seloth.

2. Just a reminder to the quest maker: All quest greetings must be in Greeting 1 for MBC, otherwise vampires won't get them. Also, there should be generic greetings for cult members in Greeting 2 as well as Greeting 7.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:18 am

Since IP has been gone for over a month now, anyone mind if I do the final write up on this?

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:59 pm

No, please go ahead if you want.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:45 pm

I'm going through these quests one by one and I'm starting to wonder about one of them. It's the quest where one of your fellow MBC cultists is captured by the Boethian cult and you have to find out what happened. My issues are:

- They are supposed to be in a Daedric ruin, but there are very few Daedric ruins (as far as I can see) and none are Boethian.
- There needs to be jail in the ruin with a secret entrance somewhere near the jail.
- There are supposed to be 8 Boethian cultists in this ruin. Why is such a large group of cultists here when we're trying to having the 'main' group in Map 2? Won't it feel a bit odd there are no quests for this group of Boethians when there's a full faction's worth for the Map 2 guys?

Also, can you only join one Daedric cult? Otherwise there are more issues with you having to kill several of them here.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:02 pm

Wouldn't it make sense for this to be a multi-map quest?

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:17 pm

A possibility, but this line is for the final Map 1 release, which shouldn't have any dependency on Map 2.

I don't want to take this quest out, since I think it's one of the best in the line, story-wise. But I'm wondering whether it has to be the Boethian cult at all. However, the only groups I can think of who are obviously anti-Molag Bal are:

- Any other Daedric Cult (See above problems.)
- The Temple (Shouldn't be too many in map 1 areas, plus they're used later anyway.)
- The Imperials (Jail is too difficult to break out of. Can't be killing lots of guards.)

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:44 pm

Here is the quest for reference (sorry for the double post, I can't edit here). I have made some minor alterations already.

TR_m1_MB_Kalo5 - Molag Bal Cult: Rescue Salms Alen
(requires rank Conjurer)

Kalort will inform that Salms Alen was sent on a mission to assassinate the leader of a Boethian Cult, but has not returned.

The Boethian cult resides in a medium sized Daedric Ruin [just a filler ruin anywhere on Map1], and was the former home to Andali Sendal, before she joined the cult of Molag Bal. Andali has been helping the cult by providing information on this Boethian cult, and Salms Alen was sent as the finishing blow. The Daedric Ruin itself is inhabited by about 8 Boethian Cultists.

You must find out what happened to Salms Alen. It will be emphasised by Kalort that your first priority is to discover whether Salms has revealed any secrets to the Boethians. Your second goal is to kill the leader of the Boethians. Andali provides a description; a Dunmer Female named Deldyn Arendu. She also gives you a list of the Boethians' names and tells you there are two entrances to the Ruin: the main entrance and the hidden entrance, which is closer to the jail when Salms is probably being kept.

All Boethian cultists will be aggressive. The player will have to kill or pickpocket one specific cultist to get the key to Salms' cell. That cultist will also have a note on his person saying:

"I must leave you all now to do the bidding of Boethiah in the lands of the Telvanni. With this newfound information we have obtained, we can do great harm to our arch enemy. L."

If you talk to Salms before you have the key, he will tell you which one has it. Once you have the key, Salms will tell you what happened. He managed to get to Deldyn Arendu and killed her, but apparently she was not or was no longer the leader of the Boethians. Salms was then outnumbered and locked in this cell. He was beaten up repeatedly and would have died from starvation if he had not been saved by you in time. If you ask him if he told the Boethians any secrets he will not answer but will ask to be released from his cell by being given the key. The player can say yes or can question him about the note. If you persist in questioning, Salms Alen will confess to having given out information on the cult's location and other secrets, and will beg you to let him live. You can kill him or release him. If you release him he will give you his amulet to prove his death.

Once you return to Kalort he will ask you what happened. You can tell him that:
A) You found Salms and he had given away secrets.
B) Salms was dead when you got there (he will believe you, small reward).

If you replied A), he will ask what you did. You can tell him

C) You killed Salms for breaking a sacred oath to Molag Bal (he will congratulate you, regardless of whether it was true, good reward).
D) You left him in his cage (Kalort berates you, no reward but can continue).
E) You let him escape (you have screwed up and must do the punishment quest).

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:59 am

In Original questline you were supposed to free Salms Alen from Imperial jail in Firewatch. You could do it in bloody and non-bloody way (tricking the guard to go away or even release the prisoner by persuasion or bribe (more in way of Molag Bal then mindless slaughter), or stealing the key from guard or some chest or picking the lock with locpikcs or spell and making breakout - why there should allways be a slaughter of guards during jailbreak?).

And even if there was- I don't think that killing lots of FW guards and pissing of imperials should be any obstacle for MB cultist.

Once you are daedra cultist and once you wish to advance to reach high positions in this organization and enjoy rare artifacts and dreadful powers, you must be ready to pay the price by being unpopular with worldly institutions and be prepared that you may become despised outlaw with high price on your head.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:27 am

That's true Theo, but both the Firewatch and Bal Oyra prison are already used in quests so I'd prefer to have a new location.

So, powers that be, would it be ok to add this new interior?

Plan:

Something like [url=http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1715/layoutndn.jpg]this artistically planned layout[/url] at [url=http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6506/locationyal.jpg]this location[/url] (One entrance on one side of the hill, the other on the other side. That layout isn't at the right angle) north of Firewatch, where there are hardly any interiors. Both the prison and the storage rooms would be quite small, but the living area would need to be big enough for 3-4 people. The occupants are Boethian cultists, so any evidence of that would be nice. Perhaps the living quarters could actually be the entrance to a (collapsed, no entry) Daedric shrine?

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:08 pm

Awesome, we'll just make a new interior. There are few daedric ruins on map1 anyway, so that's fine.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Well, I thought it would just be a normal cave due to the lack of any Daedric architecture on the exterior, but I guess it could be Daedric inside.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:50 am

I know this was months ago but about failure - when a player fails a quest, it is essential that they know they failed it immediately. They can't find out they fucked up 10 years later, they have to be aware as something happens that it means they failed. The response to failure is load last save, people do not actually fail quests, they try them again until they have succeeded. For this reason, they cannot have an opportunity to do things that they'd have to do again before they discover that hey, they fucked up, there goes 2 hours of gameplay.

I think this is probably obvious, but since there's any discussion about failing and not being able to advance in House Telvanni, I want to make sure. Unless my experience is radically different than yours, it shouldn't even be an issue because no one just accepts that they failed a quest, they start it over.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:41 am

That is true. ThatÃ‚Â´s why in most questlines minor failure leads to smaller reward and major failure ending of the questline (expulsion).

And in case of MBC major failure in quest whenever during the line should lead to expulsion and attack on PC. Most gamers will immediately reload at this stage anyway.

The whole idea of repent-quests seems superfluous to me, who will ever bother with them? Too much work for the questmaker.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:16 pm

Ok, I've been looking over this today and am fairly happy with it (the repent quests and 2nd betray the cult quests are gone, and everything else is getting written up). I only have three quests I'm not really happy with now:

1. Treachery
This quest is the first quest after the player reaches rank Warlock. It begins with the player having to find and kill a messenger who is carrying information about the cult. You then return to the Ruinous Crypt to find Ratagos and four Ordinators. You have to kill all four Ordinators and capture Ratagos using a special scroll. I personally think this is too uber and I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t like Ratagos being involved. Far too many other quests use the Ranyon-Ruhn temple and Ratagos Ã¢â‚¬â€œ IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d prefer him to stay there and remain alive. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d like to change the quest to something like:
A traitor has betrayed the cult and is on their way to inform the authorities. You have to find them and kill them before they reach a certain settlement. When you catch up with them, they either have some sort of escort or various summoned nasties that you also have to defeat. Maybe after that you have to perform a bit of an inquisition to see if anyone else is a traitor.

2. Ascent to Priesthood.
This is, like the name suggests, the quest where you ascend to the Rank Priest. It involves collecting various ingredients and also using command humanoid to bring a woman to the cult and sacrifice her. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s fairly similar to previous ritual quests and involves more command humanoid, which already sees a bit too much action in this quest line. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d like to change it to something like:
In order to prove your worth, you must survive a trail before you can ascend to the rank of Priest. You need to read the Codex of Molag Bal and answer several questions on it from memory. Then you have to fight off a series of nasty things summoned by Heceril, the master of rituals. If you survive, you get to be a Priest.

3. Ascent to Hierophant
IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve yet to look at this in detail, but it seems to me that it would be quite difficult to make this seem impressive, since as Prelate (the rank before) you are already head of the cult, and this just seems like another ritual to make you super top dog. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m tempted to just scrap this, make Prelate the highest rank (we can always swap the names if people like the name Hierophant) and just have the Prelate ceremony be more impressive.

I'd appreciate any input people have on these three quests.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri May 22, 2009 4:42 pm

Sounds all good, though the Ascent to Priesthood you describe seems a little 'out of character' for the general evil feel of the MBC. A little too scholarly and knowledge based (although with fighting Daedra, yeah).

But I agree the old version was crap.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:04 pm

Here is the very nearly finished plan for MBC. Better that someone else does the small amount of work needed to finish this off than it sit on my computer for another few months.

The only thing remaining is the last quest:
TR_m1_MB_Hece6 - Molag Bal Cult: Prelate of Molag Bal
although most of the plan is there, it just needs tidying up and clarifying. And of course, there should be discussion before final approval.

The file is massive (hm, 26 pages), but I've added an index with hyperlinks so it's a little easier to navigate. I only have Open Office though, and the .doc file format seems to have removed some of them. Odd.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:20 pm

Cheers for this. Will check it out at a later date.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:53 pm

I have tried to add NPC's to the interior created by Hemi, according to the personality descriptions and give some interesting items to them, as well as creating the cult faction.

Also you can now pray to the great statue in the temple and receive strange 'blessings' that are designed to help you particularly with some quests (increasing speechcraft or so), but it is still somehow cheesy and should be reconsidered.

You can use this file for future questing if you desire so.

Also when Starcrunch made his Temple line anti-molag Bal he used another version of the cult. So in one quest you fight some cultists, but they look rather as rouges then hideous mages and by their stats they would not even make it out of the main base.
Also you recover an amulet from one of them, but it is totally different amulet then which Hemi created as the sigil for the cultists.

So I suggest that you play Temple line and rething what in it needs to be adjusted to the current version of the cult.

Good luck.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:56 pm

Sorry, this is the proper file.

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:44 pm

So is this considered finished? I'm thinking about claiming this sometime soon.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:48 am

immortal_pigs wrote:So is this considered finished? I'm thinking about claiming this sometime soon.

Perhaps if MowSkwoz or someone who has the file could re-post that .doc file, we could find out?

Are 15-25 quests really necessary? I think 11-16 seems like a more reasonable number...

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:23 pm

I could take the time to review and shorten this questline up, provided I can get the docs.

Not sure what Theo did with his .esp, but I would like to have Hemitheon's Molag Bal Lair if it's still around somewhere.

Edit:
I think this might be the base doc.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:06 pm

The lair is in my file.

I just npced the interior according to the NPC plan, added some cool items for purchase from the high cult members, and fixed some scripts. The script on the statue of Molag Bal I placed there does is provisional, but it can be replaced easily. Anyway the statue needed to be an activator for the purpose anyway and not static, which it is in my version.

The result there are so many quests in this line is that many people pushed theirs ideas into it. Starcrunch wanted to have a conflict with vampire/non-vampire members, then somebody also wished to have conflict with cultists of Boethiath, somebody wanted to include option to betray the cult (and make this option a part of temple questline???) etc.

For me the most important aspect is the cultÃ‚Â´s ideology (domination, subversion, blackmail and corrupting body and soul) and itÃ‚Â´s strict hierarchy with restrictions for lower members (slave bracelet, restricted movement) and the sweet privileges of the upper cultists.

But perhaps it would be better just rewrite the questline around one of these aspects of your choice.

Why · Post by **Why** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:37 pm

I can't access that file, could you repost it please?

immortal_pigs · Post by **immortal_pigs** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:43 am

Strange you can't access it, Why, but maybe this repost will work?

I think it might be best to ask BC and Adanorcil what they think of the questline first, and see what they're looking for. I'm not even sure having questlines for all the cults is still part of the package. Besides that, I don't know to what extent the line is lore-friendly or not.

But I'd rather have commentary on it now it's still in design rather then having it critiqued 2 months from now when it's halfway done.