Expansion of Almalexia

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:47 pm

One of the threads got me thinking today about the lack of entertainment in Almalexia. So I was thinking of creating a mod which would add an arena to 24, -30 and a full-scale theater to 25, -28. But before I actually started any interior work on these, I figured Id ask TR to see if maybe they thought that was a good enough idea to be incorporated into the game. At which point, I wouldn't make the mod. A full-scale theater is possible with boxes and mezzanines in the MH set. I've done one before but never released it. An arena is also possible. I figured it could be called something like The Symmachan Circus or some such thing. Whatcha think?

EDIT: Oh I forgot. The arena and the theater wouldn't actually function. So no fights, no arena champions, just a regular arena to parallel the one in Vivec.

EDIT 2: In fact, since both cells are relatively close, one could even suggest a new district--The Entertainment District, or the Eleven Saints Plaza. Just some random thoughts.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:45 pm

I like this idea, and if implemented not too far from now, it'd work. Would it make the city completely square? I haven't checked which cells those are.

If we could implement a working arena it'd be very nice though. Is there any way we could have a working theatre, or is that undesirable?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:55 pm

yeah because that enormous empty city needs to be even larger

if you want to fix almalexia's being boring making it even bigger isn't going to help. almalexia is the worst city in this mod because it has no culture at all. its a horrible horrible city.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:08 pm

Well I figured a non-functioning theater because Mournhold has the Mournhold Players. So I'm figuring this is their theater, they just perform in Mournhold every-so-often.

@ Sload, what are some of your ideas to enculture (made up a new word) almalexia?

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:16 pm

I agree that Almalexia doesn't have any culture, but I don't think we should expand it in regards to the amount of area it covers. Almalexia is rife with plazas in the center of each cell that play host to nothing more than a large tree, which is a gargantuan waste of space. Perhaps replace one of these 'central plazas' (the southwestern corner, perhaps?) with a performance venue. On the subject of the arena, we could use one, but it would need to be underground, as a sort of hidden, black market deal. (And because there isn't enough space for one above ground)

Finally, Adan has been commenting on the overusing of St. Olms and Delyn statues throughout Almalexia. Once we decide what to do about this, we can either give it to the detailer to fix, or someone else can volunteer.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:20 pm

Hemitheon wrote:enculture (made up a new word) almalexia?

I have an idea. It involves lube.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:21 pm

Personally, I wouldn't say it's any more a 'cultureless city' than Port Telvannis, for example. (Unless the sheer fact of being a Telvanni city makes something cultureful whereas a more mundanely constructed city is boring.)

I'd also say that NPCing is where alot of the shine will be added for a (pretty much by necessity) more mundanely constructed city.

But what do I know.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:44 pm

I think some of the plazas could be reduced or taken out completely, and filled in with more structures. I think ultimately there is just way to much space in Almalexia, everything is spread so far apart. It has the feeling of being planned and built all at once, instead of a city that actually might have grown. I think the original Indoril models are to blame, because they are made to look planned out in Mournhold.

Although I think it would be good to make some new models for smaller houses(or houses for poor people), you can probably get away with what is there already. Maybe some raised terraces with buildings come out of the sides and on top, more narrow alleyways, maybe even some "seedy" looking areas for the city off in some of the corners. Not everyone in Almalexia has to look like they're part of the Indoril elite. Essentially just create a bit of chaos, as any proper city would have. Take away the squareness of it all, have the city walls come into the city in some areas and maybe extend out in other areas, and not have each plaza perfectly conform to each cell.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:57 pm

Almalexia has so many giant buildings they aren't impressive. They each have a "purpose" but they don't form a cohesive whole. It was just handled very poorly.

Not unlike most cities, though, I admit.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:19 pm

I actually really like the way Almalexia looks and feels. But anyway, this is a good idea:

Haplo wrote:Almalexia is rife with plazas in the center of each cell that play host to nothing more than a large tree, which is a gargantuan waste of space. Perhaps replace one of these 'central plazas' (the southwestern corner, perhaps?) with a performance venue. On the subject of the arena, we could use one, but it would need to be underground, as a sort of hidden, black market deal.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:29 pm

Regarding Almalexia as planned:

Well Sotha Sil did design the city, but I don't think that would be a good enough excuse so perhaps Jedak could move some buildings around to rid the city of a rigid layout.

Regarding an underground black, market arena:

There is that one haunted watchtower. What if it used to house a combat training facility, that now is run by some crime syndicate. Instead of fighting, you can go and watch animals kill each other. So cock-fights with alit, durzogs, goblins and such.

Regarding extra entertainment areas:

I know they are used in like every mod, but what if we took that musicians mod and made the players Dunmer. Then set up little platforms here and there with musicians.

oooh, gotta go. I'll add later.

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:39 pm

One thing I can tell everyone for certain is that we're not going to be moving around buildings in the city or changing the layout or adding walls to break up the areas. The choices are leave it as it is, or replace some cell-centers currently occupied by trees (and/or open spaces) with entertainment venues. What these venues are is not for certain yet, but they could be cock fights or minstrels or jesters or crucified heretics

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:53 pm

Hemitheon wrote:I know they are used in like every mod, but what if we took that musicians mod and made the players Dunmer. Then set up little platforms here and there with musicians.

No. They are ugly, glitchy, and grotesquely animated.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:20 am

we don't use needless, and non-vanilla-esque resource packs in any case, even when done well.

Chin Music · Post by **Chin Music** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:23 am

Man, I don't know about you guys but I think Almalexia looks gorgeous, giant plazas and all. And it'll look even cooler when it's crawling with NPCs.

Xui'al · Post by **Xui'al** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:35 am

Hemitheon wrote:\

There is that one haunted watchtower. \

I thought we had decided that a haunted watchtower was a really stupid idea?

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:53 am

Xui'al wrote: I thought we had decided that a haunted watchtower was a really stupid idea?

I think it got turned into a semi/pseudo haunted watchtower. Mostly forlorn.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:34 pm

It would actually be a good idea to have a large public arena somewhere, though. I know that most of the duel quests in Vvardenfell were dull. ("You want to become the boss? Well, you'll just have to fight me for it now, won't you?" Rinse and repeat for almost all the factions). Nonetheless, I think it would seem strange if you're bombarded with offers for duels in Vvardenfell and then in the Mainland duels are either sporadic, rule-less, on-the-spot affairs or nonexistent. Whether they're to the death or not, I think we certainly should have some, or make up some bogey explanation on how the mainland has advanced from the brutish practise or what-have-you, and in that case we'd need an arena, probably in a big city, preferably not too far to one edge of the map.

(Though we could have multiple arenas, or course. Does Narsis still have its arena? I know Riverbridge doesn't, unless anyone insists that I add one back in...) At any rate, going from, for example, Baan Malur to Tear or for that matter almost anywhere to Baan Malur would be a bit silly.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:25 am

Baan Malur

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:35 pm

In my opinion Almalexia surely is not that amazing city. True, it is huge it covers 12 cells - yet it is small. You can see most of it during short walk around the circle. No hidden small squares, no labyrinths of alleys and passages.

It is due to the fact that the city's layout is circular, the city itself is situated in the flat area and there is lot of great Plazas with vast majority of houses situated on some of them (only very rich people could afford this in real cities.)

But this is nothing that can be changed without redoing the city from scratch and even though it would have to be similarly outlined, because it needs to surround Mournhold. Some of the Plazas could be replaced with more dense areas with buildings with backyardÃ‚Â´s, alleys, arches, terraces... But that would only contrast more with the rest of the city.

There are several megalomaniac buildings - perhaps too many. But they are all justified, especially this is a capital city.

This city with its monumental architecture and rectangular layout reminds me of modern cities of US.

So my thoughts on this - leave the Almalexia as it is, perhaps adding some older parts more condensed parts and probably making it more alive with NPCs. You can give some more oriental or ancient look to other capitals.

Narsis already has ancient feel to it and there is still Tear and Blacklight that can be even more immersive.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 pm

When the detailing work of the citieswill come, I'll think and consider about a theatre, but I'll do a lot wilderness cells first. Don't except anything before summer vacation.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:58 am

Sload wrote:yeah because that enormous empty city needs to be even larger

Sload makes a point, I dont like the idea of it being any larger, I know its the capital but hell its already fucking huge.
However I am intreged about what Hemi metioned, the "underground black, market arena". Its a good idea and be being submereged rather than taking another cell to expand Almalexia.
The only problem though it would have to be made very well. afterall It is the capital, you'd imagine law & order (yes sorry bad pun) would be very tight.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:05 am

Another idea: the Royal Gardens.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:24 am

...there already are gardens in Almalexia?

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:27 am

There is an unnamed garden.

A botanical conservatory?

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:11 pm

A botanical conservatory? thats sounds awesome, like a giant garden under a dome? (idk), 3 possible ideas there:

1. you could claim it supplies the capital with resources or something, like Almalexia's own private source.

2. Claim its there to attracts tourists

3. Claim its a royal garden, meaning special access required.

btw how big is the unamed garden?

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:43 pm

Guildhall size. Not huge, but very unique, being a large 2 story room with terraces and such so that the plants have tons of space to grow.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:23 pm

well it certainly sounds promising.

If the idea gets approved, and I know what plants are allowed, I'll have a go at making it, assuming you dont first Hemi. 8)

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:08 pm

A botanical conservatory is, no offense, a stupid idea. We're trying to add culture to a city that is already too big, without changing its layout at all. This means that there's a 99% chance we won't be adding new interiors, and that it will probably just end up as blackbird changing one of the cells to have a theater group performing in the center in place of a big random tree/spire.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:17 pm

Eh, Im not overly bothered eitherway now, Almalexia is as big as it needs to be. No point unarranging the perfect square that almalexia seems to be in by adding more cells.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:01 pm

My thoughts on the best ways of "enculturing" Almalexia would be to:

1. Make the NPC's of the city interesting, through good diolouge and interesting storys.

2. Maybe make some sort of unique monuments and replace some of the generic statues/gardens with them. Think Wahington DC.

3. Give certain areas of the city a different "feel" through diologue and minor variations in decoration.

The size of the city, like many have stated, should remain the same, and there probabily should be no major rearranging of buildings.

These are just my general thoughts, though truthfully I haven't looked at the city much in the CS.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:38 am

Variation in areas is a little obvious, but still a good idea, you could make certain flowers appear more in one area than another type, some alternative banners.

The Theatre group Halpo mentioned could be good, that was fun in Tribunal. Uh Im not sure what it would be like to programme but you could make it appear in different areas depending on time or uh... month, have different plays going.

Even have little parades or something going on here and then, due to time constraints.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:08 pm

Petitioners to the goddess would be nice. Like all those Chinese farmers who trek to Beijing to complain about pollution or whatever. But more interesting.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:53 pm

There was a discussion a while back very similar to this, about making Necrom more "lively" (which is a little anachronistic) and interesting. The parades and differing plays by month (in that case it was banners and decorations) are going to come off clunky and take a long long time to do if you can even do them properly in the engine (which you really can't, it was never designed for such things in the beginning). Work with what you have first. An outdoor theater is a good idea, gardens (if we need them) aren't bad either. Statues (again if we need them) are also good. This is the capital of the province so expect to see things appropriate for a political capital. The idea of the petitioners is good too. Almalexia is not only a political and commercial center but a religious one. Pilgrims and petitioners, diplomats, caravaners, think of all the things the city would attract. If you want more flavor give some of the transient population interesting stories. Maybe this one is a farmers son who ran away from home. Maybe there's some villagers complaining about the effects low saltrice prices have had on their community. Have professional performers and non professional wandering circus types, hell, maybe their at odds with each other. I dont know! But these are all some ideas you can use that can be implemented quickly and (more or less) simply, and won't come out clunky.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Maybe the city should have it's own hardcore Almalexia cult, like the Buoyant Armigers in Vivec. Not a military order like Her Hands, but healers or penitents or something.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:34 pm

Almalexia consists of 12 cells and Mournhold consists of 9 cells. Together it's 21 cells and mornhold isn't fully walled in. The eastern part of mournhold isn't adjacent to Almalexia! If i should wall Mournhold completely in or when MH is complete surrounded by the city of Almalexia, the city of Almalexia will consist of 16 cells.
If hemi would like to see an arena at 24,-30, i would tell him it's possible, but his proposition will enlarge the city (and I have to change the road)

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:09 pm

blackbird, your post doesn't make sense to me: both Almalexia and Mournhold are completely walled in. Also, we decided against adding an arena (or anything, rather) if it enlarged the city's cell-count, so completely encircling Mournhold isn't an option anymore.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:16 am

the main problem i see with alma is the order: it looks totally planed out instead of chaotic and organic like 4000 year old city should. some smaller buildings, construction scaffolding, ruins, etc. could make the city look less artificial and add more culture/history. main worry there is FPS.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:58 am

That sounds good actaully, some scaffolding would be kinda nice. and your right it does seem very planned out

I'll tell you what though, I know there are no NPCs in it yet, but when I was working through Almalexia it felt sort of...um...

*consults a thesaurus*

Sort of.. like something doesnt seem right, something neglected. I cant put my finger on what it is though.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:10 am

I think it would add alot, if we also added

a. sewer drains with steam

b. drying clothes on ropes strung between apt buildings.

c. scaffolding

d. city sounds

e. a few venues here and there, like musician platforms (no musicians though, just cushions and instruments)

f. a couple platforms for snake-oil salesman (idea, a guy that is selling 2nd and 3rd class relics or a guy selling a new potion which he claims will boost personality--you have a 30% shot at getting a potion which will permanently boost personality 5 points. 70% shot it will lower it.).

g. a mini odeon for storytellers and philosophers. Maybe a scholar interpreting CHIM or some such lore. (I don't mean like a Greek arena here. I mean like a clearing with stone benches around it for talks or discussions)
___________________________________________________

At least some large portion of the city needs to look run-down. And I think that's where one of the rubs is. Class structure wasn't stressed enough in ext. and int. modding. What should have shown 4000 years of history has been suppressed by the fictitious bourgeoisie of the city. The majority of apartment complexes are rich. Apartments should have been used for middle class and lower class. And maybe like 1 or 2 rich apartments.

Someone really should count up poor ints, rm ints, and rich ints in Almalexia. Those numbers need to match up with the general population of Morrowind. A large base of poor and a small group of wealthy elite.

Yes, it is the capital. I understand that. However, a capital requires an extremely large base of working class in order to function properly. There needs to be a large group of have-nots, a larger group of blue collars, and smaller numbers of retainers and nobles.

I think Mournhold perhaps presented the city as super-wealthy, because the player was only ever able to go to the super-wealthy part of town. Had Bethesda recreated the entire city, no doubt it would have primarily been slums and middle class.

My final suggestion: Allow the core to choose a section of the city to be slummed down. That section would need to be at least 1/4 the size of the city in order to fill the demand for workers.

Then, go through all interiors in that sector and furn_de_p-ify them.

The slum section could also incorporate fragments or ruined bits from the original city.

Now i know that is A LOT. But, Necrom and ALL of its interiors were redone in order to correct TRs vision of it. I think Almalexia could really benefit from this.

One possible alternative:

House Indoril uses slaves. In order to minimize the need for a huge working class base, fill the city with hundreds of slaves.