Necrom Guards redesigned

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:17 pm

The guard armour I made for Necrom a long time ago shouldn't be in the mod - it's not up to standard and it's not very Dunmeri aside from looking a bit like ordinator armour. Yeah, It looks a bit cool with the black and white and the tears on the mask but it's just not right for such an important place. Necrom deserves better and something more Velothi seeing as it's pretty much as Dunmer as you can get.

I see the guards that patrol and "keep" Necrom as being honoured individuals who fit in with the spirit of Necrom in terms of visual style. Wearing armour that honours the dead and with which the dead honour the wearer (as the armour is made from the dead - relatives of the guard wearing it.

[url=http://img229.imageshack.us/i/necromguardconcept.png/][img]http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3083/necromguardconcept.th.png[/img][/url]

Feedback on the visual side and Lore aspects would be really useful.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:34 pm

its a cool concept, but i dont think it suits the guards. furthermore, it screams the traditional western view of death to me - creepy horror stuff more than honoring your ancestors. the ordinator armor on the other hand is more polished and more dunmer.

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:42 pm

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the Ordinators in Mourning. They look good, are well designed and they appease lore-mongers and the general public alike.

Your concept looks very cool, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. You're saying it's a guard wearing an armor of dead body parts, but I'm just seeing a half-skeleton.

Also, I agree with Lady N.

cire992 · Post by **cire992** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:52 pm

I don't see how this looks more dunmeri than the ordinators who are already in Necrom.

Would look kinda cool in a tomb or something.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:12 pm

I am sorry to contradict you so vehemently, but I strongly believe the Necrom ordinators should not be redesigned. I have heard Sload say before that the Ordinators In Mourning, with tears on their masks, are one of the best genuinely creative ideas TR has produced and I agree with him on that.

Think about what we are trying to depict here. Necrom, above all, is a glorious but respectful monument to all Dunmer ancestors. When the player enters it, the first impression should be spot on: the architecture should emit an aura of solemn glory while its inhabitants should look as if they entirely focused on their sacred duties, ceremonies and rituals.

This is why the Ordinators in Mourning, as they look now, are ideal. They wear ornate, ceremonial armour meant to emphasize their role as guardians of the sacred remains of their people's ancestors.

It is true that the Dunmer have far fewer complexes concerning the (public) display of the remains of the deceased than we would, but the armour you designed does not give the proper impression of Necrom. Personally, my first thought was "zombie". It looks overly rotten and in an overall bad state and does not look all as if it would be worn by someone who is tasked with a sacred duty.

At any rate, the arguments above are not particularly important. The Ordinators In Mourning and the concept behind them are an absolutely great and creative idea and redesigning them would be a regrettably needless expense of creative energy. As Head of Lore, I would like to state explicitly that this is a bad idea.

However, if you do want to put some work into it, the actual quality of the models and textures of the armour could use quite a bit of improvement. I have just taken a look at the set in the CS and apart from the mask, which is great, some parts of the textures are blurry, bordering on solid color. A better UV map and a more detailed texture seem in order.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:39 am

Nalin, the Necrom armour you designed is great and fits Necrom perfectly. The drawing you posted for a replacement on the other hand is neither of these. It's a great drawing, but I agree with Adanorcil that it seems more like concept art for a zombie than a guardian of the Dunmer's most sacred site.

A cool idea, but not one that is right for Necrom. Anyway, if something isn't broken and is well liked, why remove it and start from scratch?

David House · Post by **David House** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:08 am

[url=http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2129/lolayo.png/][img]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2129/lolayo.th.png[/img][/url]
ok that was mean. it was meant as joke only, please don't take it the wrong way.

In a more topic related note, you could try a mix between the two?

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:36 pm

Yeti wrote:...if something isn't broken and is well liked, why remove it and start from scratch?

Because personally I don't like the other set, think it's a bit boring and no where near my current vision of Necrom. Just wondered if anyone else here did too but I guess not.

I suppose the concept for it is a bit vauge aswell though. In my mind I see the skeleton upper half that others have commented on as being strapped to the body along with the ragged material (embalming wrappings). The mask is made from the front of a skull and the back of the "helm" from the remaining part. I see it as an actual ritual being dressed in the armour.

Of course I can see where the "it's a zombie" comments are coming from, should have spent a bit more time on the concept I suppose. These guards practically live in tombs and what do we find in Morrowind as far as ritual within ancestral tombs and magical rites? bits o dead folk. Speared skulls with and without candles,bones placed within buildings during building, bones sent to Vvardenfell for Ghostgate. Seems perfectly fitting to me.

David House · Post by **David House** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:12 pm

Well, I personally like the idea of new armor, you could try somthing a bit more, fuctional? it just seams that they wouldnt get allot of protection from that, Kinda a bit more bulky then what you got, kinda like the aliens from avp.
[img]http://www.monstersinmotion.com/catalog/images/predator/alien18neca.jpg[/img]

Post by **Haplo** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:34 pm

omg david stop

NexUmMonastica · Post by **NexUmMonastica** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:05 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote: it screams the traditional western view of death to me - creepy horror stuff more than honoring your ancestors.

Why don't you mix more of the two together then? I think they look absolutely fantastic but I do agree that they don't strike me firsthand as guards. They could be given enough Dumner armor to look sentry-ish but be missing enough of the armor bipeds to still see the rotting dead.

All in all i like the concepts a lot. I think they fit much better in a tomb like you said: "These guards practically live in tombs" Of course they are going to be decayed and decrepit.

David House wrote:Kinda a bit more bulky then what you got, kinda like the aliens from avp.

Don't you mean "like the aliens from ALIEN"? I'd keep anything pertaining to space-fantasy in the "off-topic forums". And please ALWAYS USE THUMBS

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:16 pm

NexUmMonastica wrote:Don't you mean "like the aliens from ALIEN"?

Hehe, guess that tells us something about his age.

Also, this thread is on a downward spiral. Perhaps it's better to focus our energy on things that actually need fixing.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:27 pm

David: Quit spamming and being a retard

Nalin: We'll let you redesign the guards after everything else is designed/redesigned that needs it more. (except probably not)

Thread locked

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:21 pm

just one thing i'd like to note: the head of lore has spoken, and his word is law in such matters (especially when it lines up with the previous head of lore, who happens to be one of the most demanding [in a good way] core ever)

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:55 pm

On a potentially helpful note, one thing I think the Necrom Ordinators could really do with looking at is their current skirt. It is a bit long and bulky, and perhaps (though others can feel free to disagree) makes them look a bit 'off'. Using a suitable retex of the Imperial skirt (used by Imperial guards) in order to tighten it up a bit, or perhaps something entirely original, might improve the overall image.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:17 pm

oh hey look! Relevant discussion. Seems unlocking would be a good idea.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:49 pm

Adanorcil wrote:Personally, my first thought was "zombie". It looks overly rotten and in an overall bad state and does not look all as if it would be worn by someone who is tasked with a sacred duty.

Indeed. What perplexes me most about this thread is not the drive to replace one of the most excellent things in TR-Morrowind, but the suggestion of what to replace it with. The guards wear rotting dead people? I don't see how you could even wear that armor, or how it wouldn't look like something out of cheap horror. Replace the ordinators with bonewalkers is a suggestion I could understand and strongly disagree with, but the proposed armor just confuses me.

I also don't see how ordinators, the most devoutly religious of the Dunmer, could possibly be construed as "not Dunmer enough."

The Ordinators in Mourning are great for several reasons. They are a reflection on a concept familiar to the player, ordinators, so their purpose and their status will be understood when the player reaches Necrom. The concept of an elite sub-group of ordinators will also be understood, so their special significance within the ordinator corps will be clear to any player whose played both Morrowind and Tribunal. I mean, its just common sense that they have to be ordinators, and they can't be ordinators unless they're wearing something that clearly resembles ordinator armor; its just an essential aspect of the concept "ordinator."

What makes the Ordinators in Mourning so great, though, is that they aren't just a mildly discolored ordinator, they're so much more than that. The tear streaks down their face burning lines into their cheeks are just such a powerful image, especially if the guards are attacking you. That the Ordinators in Mourning wear masks to represent their sorrow is excellent beyond words.

I don't know much about the skirts of the Ordinators in Mourning. I remember thinking they were a bit big once, but not enough for me to ever really comment on them. Maybe the Imp skirts, or the Red skirts, would be better.

cire992 · Post by **cire992** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:24 pm

I took a look at the Necrom Guard with a less bulky skirt. I'm don't like it, I think the old one's fine... Take a look at the comparison pic. I say it's release worthy as it is, any tweaking would = bad time management on our part for the time being.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:54 am

It has more of an oriental feel with the long skirt, the short one just looks awkward.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:30 am

The only thing I can see that could use some tweaking is the Cuirass. Maybe make it just a little bit more wider.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:34 am

Just leave it for now. There are plenty of other things that should take precedence over this. I'm just thinking of all the things we don't even have models for yet.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:53 am

Indeed. Anything that can't be done with a retexture is a waste of time.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:24 pm

Well - saving time isn't really an issue if we use this set; [url=http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=priestiv2.jpg][img]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/443/priestiv2.th.jpg[/img][/url] , that I did ages ago as an intended replacement for the old set. It's been hiding in my hole for a very long time.
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18143&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

(XD hiding in my hole!)

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:47 pm

That picture looks better than either of the other two

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:42 pm

Ad wrote:...if you do want to put some work into it, the actual quality of the models and textures of the armour could use quite a bit of improvement...

I wrote:[url=http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=priestiv2.jpg][img]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/443/priestiv2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Sload wrote:That picture looks better than either of the other two

Everyone else wrote:...

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:41 pm

The new version of the skirt looks a lot better than the old version, the other one looked kinda... segmented, like he was wearing several different skirts on top of each other. Do the pauldrons still have what looks like scripture on them? It's kinda hard to tell with that picture.

Is there any reason why this new version isn't wearing the gauntlets?

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:10 pm

That image indeed looks far better (not as a retexture of the chitin pauldrons). The fact the shoulder armour points down goes well with the overall tone of the mask.

Though I like the idea of the black cloth on their cuirass, I think that texture needs a little more work. It is not very noticeable in that particular picture, but the cloth is very obviously painted on in front view, and warps rather badly. Also, I noticed there's a broken vertex on the crest somewhere.

None of these are major issues, though, and unless Nalin feels extremely compelled to fix them, I think we'd be better off concentrating on other things.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:55 am

Tyrion wrote:It has more of an oriental feel with the long skirt, the short one just looks awkward.

Strongly agreed.

Night0205 · Post by **Night0205** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:02 am

Nalin wrote:
Ad wrote:...if you do want to put some work into it, the actual quality of the models and textures of the armour could use quite a bit of improvement...

I wrote:[url=http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=priestiv2.jpg][img]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/443/priestiv2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Sload wrote:That picture looks better than either of the other two

Everyone else wrote:...

As a fan Nalin, this armor set looks amazing! I love the tears on the mask and I think the shoulder armor aiming down has to be a must! I like the black cloth on the front, and I think the skirt looks good. I think it sets itself apart from the other ordinator armor sets in a unique and special way.

I also look forward to your dres concepts.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:48 pm

this thread was dead, please refrain from necromancy