q2-24-Imp

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:01 am

Claim type: Quest
Claim ID: TR_q2-24-Imp (#2142)
Faction: Imperial
Parent claim: TR_2-2-Tel (#65)
Claimed by: Parted User
Status: Not Available (Progress: 0%)
Location: (4167, -163)
Files: None

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Imperial Archaeological Society (Not Currently a Priority - could be delayed to a future release, but great if we can pull it off)

Faction Base: IAS HQ in Helnim/Archaeologist's Base in Kemel-Ze.

Questline Length: suitably long. (I'm unsure how many other bases there will be, but this questline should be suitably 'deep'. By long I don't mean 20 fetch quests, I could just mean 5 really in depth discovery ones)

As always, please take into account the existing NPCs and their personalities (if any have been established through dialogue and NPCing) while designing this claim.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:02 am

One thing I will say is that for joining the faction, I'd like this to happen for the player in Kemel-Ze. At Helnim (or any future base) they say their ranks are too full and they can't just accept anyone blah blah.

At Kemel-Ze, if you unlock any of the three 'key puzzles' and bring one of the keys to the leader of the expedition, she will give you either a recommendation to be let into the faction, or a straight-out promotion into the faction.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:16 am

I'd say she should give you a recommendation. Then you could have two smaller lines based out of Helnim involving other Dwemer ruins or other stuff, and then the big Kemel-Ze line. That might avoid a big linear storyline and also flesh out the faction so it's not just an excuse for loads of quests in Kemel-Ze.

I'd also recommend not having clashing with the Telvanni as a major part of the line since we're doing that a lot and it's getting a bit repetitive. Dialogue hints or minor quests that suggest they're at odds with the Telvanni would be good though.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:29 pm

Slightly modified version of my old questline. Will require whole new parts of Kemel-Ze to be created for this purpose, but I hope it will be enjoyable and worth the work.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:42 pm

I would really like the other big Dwemer excavation site to be used as well, it's too interesting to ignore.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:45 pm

Well, It is used as a place where you recover the first key to the tomb. But, I admit, the quest around it is too brief. If someone can come with something more complex, it would be more then welcomed. (Perhaps mini series of 2-3 quests would do).

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:25 pm

Some of your quest ideas seam to require a lot of stealth and generally have a win or utter failure comeout. I fear this may cause a lot of players to never fully experience the IAS.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:50 pm

The stealth should be allways optional. Quest 1-2 test player's intelligence and memory. Quest 3 can be done with a little bit of speechcraft and/or favor for the lord, no special skills needed. In quest 4 you can choose just to report the discovery, but even if you try to steal the book and fail the questline goes on. Quest 5 also requires just players intelligence and being on good terms with Telvanni. Quest 6 is still to be specified. The stealth comes into play in quest 7. This is the first place when you can actually screw up the line, but there is allways the bloody option of killing the guard and taking the forged letter from him. Quest 8 requires some investigation and lots of killing (perhaps now I see that instead of hiring of expedition in quest 9 you should go and hire those guys as mercenaries to help you to clean out the scavenger's hideout) - speechcraft comes handy, but is unnecessary. Quest 10 is also mostly combat and puzlle oriented.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:58 pm

Thoughts:

General
It would be easier to read with names, rather than (Marog Lord) and (Quest Giver).
I think yes on initial rejection from Helnim crowd, but I'm not keen on this talk of them being "full" or you needing university qualifications and such.
Length is good.

Quest 1
What are these menial tasks and series of puzzles? We don't want things to get boring for the player. And why does she give you a pick?
Disabling a creature sounds good. There is a section in Azmvat which can be extended to add an new area. The way of turning it off could be by activating the stuff in King's Tomb (which requires you to fill the Lava Bucket in Karkanch first). Hints in books of how to do this should be oscure, but understandable.
I think this could be the first of the Kemel-Ze quests, rather than a test to join. Finding one of the keys should be enough to get you a recommendation from Renie

Quest 2
Having to memorise bits of text could be quite tedious for some players. Not everyone enjoys that type of stuff. But I'm fine with it if everyone else likes it.
The trips to other ruins could just be separate quest lines. That would make it seem like the IAS was more than a Kemel-Ze faction.

Quest 3
From dialogue it looks like Athyrion, the Lord of Marog, doesn't really care about Kemel-Ze except as a source of income. Maybe he just requires a crude bribe?

Quest 4
Looks good. The placement of the Telvanni guards will have to be carefully done so it's difficult to get past them, but not impossible. And we don't want too many of them around or it would look silly. Getting caught should just result in no reward for the quest.

Quest 5
You cannot enter the Telvanni library unless you are a member of House Telvanni or have an Intelligence greater than 70. Seeing as it's quite possible that people doing this quest line will be neither of those things, this should be addressed. The mice thing doesn't feel very Morrowindy.
Referencing the Tomb of a King sounds a bit too much like King's Tomb, which is already an area in KZ.

Quest 6
This could be part of another non-KZ IAS line. Bthangmuzand already has a misc quest in it so we'd have to see how that affected things.

Quest 7
Stumbling upon the scavengers seems difficult to ensure. Just have them in the area where the key was supposed to be?
There seem to be a few too many options to implement here that don't add a great deal. Why not just have someone tell you about a shifty looking Khajiit who's been talking with the head Telvanni guard. Confront the Khajiit and she admits she was bribing him on behalf of the scavenger group - she then attacks you or agrees to give you proof, depending on dialogue choices, either way you get the proof and head Telvanni guard is bye-bye. Following people around at set times is difficult to implement well.

Quest 8
Looks fine. Maybe Renie just tells you to search the area where the key was supposed ot be and you find a note there.

Quest 9
I don't like this recruiting companions stuff. It feels very Baldur's Gate / Neverwinter Nights and not very Morrowind. Morrowind gets annoying with one companion - four would be very frustrating in my opinion. The quests to recruit some of them are also a little too complicated for something that the player may never do.

Quest 10
Epic dungeon crawl sounds good, but like I said I'm not keen on the companions playing such a large role (probably just a personal thing). I'd prefer not to have further Telvanni interference - Athyrion should be happy as long as you're paying him off.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:38 pm

the original intent of the IAS was for it to be a faction to facilitate the questing of Kemel-Ze, not a faction in the sense of the multi-national guilds, with multiple locations or questgivers. it was intended to be comparable to the raven rock EEC: the player is employed at a single operation (raven rock / kemel-ze), not as a general member of the guild. i have deep misgivings about the existence of other IAS operations, and under no circumstances do i think the player should participate in them.

it is worth considering the creation of a parallel structure with that of the EEC on solstheim, with the player ultimately taking sides between the boss in the ruin or the boss in the town. perhaps subverted, so that the roles of the two characters is switched in the end.

i want to say the quest should be a way to explore the dwemer, but the dwemer are unknowable and i'm not sure if its entirely appropriate to answer the dwemer question in TR.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:07 pm

Sload wrote:i want to say the quest should be a way to explore the dwemer, but the dwemer are unknowable and i'm not sure if its entirely appropriate to answer the dwemer question in TR.

I'd say it definitely wasn't appropriate, because it would lead to illogical interactions with Trebonius and Yagrum in Vvardenfell.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:16 pm

Sload wrote:the original intent of the IAS was for it to be a faction to facilitate the questing of Kemel-Ze, not a faction in the sense of the multi-national guilds, with multiple locations or questgivers. it was intended to be comparable to the raven rock EEC: the player is employed at a single operation (raven rock / kemel-ze), not as a general member of the guild. i have deep misgivings about the existence of other IAS operations, and under no circumstances do i think the player should participate in them.

Why only Kemel-Ze? Why not a faction-y faction?

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:24 am

MMMowSkwoz wrote:
Sload wrote:the original intent of the IAS was for it to be a faction to facilitate the questing of Kemel-Ze, not a faction in the sense of the multi-national guilds, with multiple locations or questgivers. it was intended to be comparable to the raven rock EEC: the player is employed at a single operation (raven rock / kemel-ze), not as a general member of the guild. i have deep misgivings about the existence of other IAS operations, and under no circumstances do i think the player should participate in them.
Why only Kemel-Ze? Why not a faction-y faction?

Didn't he just say that?... in his post? 0.o

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:12 am

Well he said he had deep misgivings about the existence of other IAS operations. I was just wondering why.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:25 am

indeed gro-dhal, thanks to the meddling influence of foreign interlopers. i believe that ken rolston did not himself know the answer, and believed it was some sort of retribution from the gods or a tragic mistake.

mmms - it seems self-evident to me, but clearly others are not of the same opinion. if you examine the broad-range factions of Morrowind, you will find clear groupings, the skill guilds, the houses, the religious orders, and the two oddities, the legion and the tong. the legion is perhaps something that shouldn't have been made; serving no clear purpose except to be a faction requiring uniform. the tong is hardly a broad-range faction, and perhaps should be classified as one of a single location; it does not follow the progression of quest givers like all of the others do.

the IAS is not like any of these. even if you throw members into other dwemer ruins, it does not have guilds in different cities, it does not have membership across the entire province, it is simply a minor party centered on the ADS region. it does not fill any niche in gameplay, it does not even have a logically preferred skill set - whatever skills it demands will certainly be quite arbitrary. the IAS is, and to be honest, quite obviously is, exactly like the EEC - a facilitator for a particular quest idea, the exploration of Kemel-Ze.

expanding it to other ruins would be disastrous. it would place the faction in some weird netherworld between the broad factions and the event factions. it would not broaden the player's experience in any way, as every location would be the same experience with the deck chairs rearranged. We are dealing with tropes, and there are two for factions - only one is really appropriate for something like an "Imperial Archaeological Society."

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:31 am

Then why even bother with a faction at all? Just have them as misc quests that happen to mostly be given by IAS members.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:53 am

Actually I presupposed that IAS has only one base, which is that in Helnim and is concerned mainly with excavations in ADS area, which is of particular archeaological interest. There is no reason why IAS should operate anywhere else.
The main purpose should be to faciliate exploration of Kemel-Ze, but no harm can be done if IAS will also operate in Amthuandz and few quests may revolve around this ruin. Some other ruins may be of interest for IAS, but they have not started excavations in them yet. So Kemel-Ze and Amthuandz are the only sites being studied by IAS, with Amthuandz excavations starting only very recently. Moreover, IAS is too new too the region and too devoid of any political ambitions to have any political relevance.
And yes, seeing as there is no real award from progressing within the organization (unlike in other factions, which provide you with services), it wouldn't have to be joinable faction at all, except that doing quests for IAS might influence your standing with other factions, like mages guild.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:11 am

Yes, I agree with what Sload says.

I am still happy with this being a faction, but more of an honourary one like 'Ashlanders' or 'Blades'. There will be no leadership challenge, or advancement surplus to that given as reward.

With that in mind Theo, I think you could pare the size of this questline down a bit: some of your quests struck me as a little shaky. Five or less very in-depth quests with as much cool Dwemer interior-ing as possible would be preferable I think. So stay away from boring misc types as much as possible. Just make it a fun 'here's how cool Kemel-Ze is' experience.

If we can drag Hemitheon away from wherever he is, he's very good with the Dwemer tileset, and has crafted some very good puzzles outside of Kemel-Ze. If he, or anyone else with da skillz, could create some special areas for Kemel-Ze with cool puzzles and stuff, that would be grand.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:23 am

Can you be more specific and tell me what quests are shaky?

EDIT: There is more concentrated version here, it has 6 more complex quests, but I believe this shouldn't be an obstacle.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:18 am

I largely agreed with MowSkwoz's comments.

Some specifics were that the 'initation task' seemed over long and slightly conflicting with the 'bring a key' deal I outlined in my post way up top.

The history test I was not a fan of.

The 'several keys to the King's tomb' is quite similar to the fact that in Kemel-Ze already there are three Keys to be found (any one of them is the 'initation rite'), which could/should be incorporated in place.

I didn't particularly like the idea of the Scavengers in Dwemer armour... I'd rather this quest was kept to puzzles and things, rather than combat against 'generic Dwemer ruin enemies', as it were. Also, the whole idea of scavengers able to kill guards wanting to have anything to do with KZ is a bit odd. After all, this ruin is supposed to be totally looted and of no interest to anyone who actually knows what they're doing, unless they're there for archaeological value. (Of course, the deeper levels would re-ignite interest, but the IAS wouldn't be letting just any old tourist know about this).

The final quest needed a bit of fleshing out. As MowSkwoz pointed out, one companion is dodgy enough in Morrowind, a whole team would be extremely awkward.

Anyway, those are some general comments. Also, using the (NAMES IN BRACKETS) just made it feel a bit unfinished. That may have put me off a bit. I always like it when people make it clear they know the NPCs involved and have a clear narrative and set of personalities in mind.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:41 am

- MowSkwoz's complaints have been addresed in the previous version.

- I made the initiation task more varied now, but I still believe there should be some quest involving a historical research. Some players do not enjoy combat (me included) and so are frustrated by great majority of quests. Some do not enjoy puzzles (to bad for them), some wouldn't enjoy doing a research - well there is no other quest like that in the game AFAIK and if there is one supposed to be somewhere it is here. But it can be avoided.

- Well, make the keys some other artifacts. I do not see how this is really a problem.

- I particuarly DO like the idea of scavengers. It adds another level to Kemel-Ze experience beside usual mechs and puzzles. You must not combat them, you just can avoid confrontation. One particularly nice feature of Kemel-Ze is that it is not linear dungeon. In most of TES III dungeouns you just enter, kill baddies, in order to proceed further to kill more baddies deeper inside. Here you will be stalking the lower levels avoiding deadly traps, confrontations with guards and scavengers. I envisage those lower levels as a zone of Stalker. Traps being anomalies, constructs being mutants, artifacts being artifacts, guards being military and scavengers being bandits, IAS being scientists. Such a lively place full of interest!

- The lower levels should be totally unlooted and totally of interest and the scavengers could just figure out somehow, they are the thieves.

- Final quest needs flashing out indeed. I omitted the companion idea.

- Well the personalities of NPC's can add a flavor to the quest, but not each story must be carried by personalities of the actors. Here it is the situation and environment that adds the main dramatic factor. This is neither a love story nor some complicated intrigue-espionage story so whether NPC X is grumpy or jolly is not so relevant for the storytelling.

- So it really is unfinished. It is just a plot, which will be fleshed out by personalities of the actors.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:49 am

Will there be a presence of the IAS near Dun Akafell? If yes, I think each base should have one major excavation site.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:04 pm

Well, for me, there's a fundamental difference here. I personally don't believe that (to use an analogy) tomb-robbers have much interest in, for example, Tutankhamun's tomb anymore.

Similarly, this ruin which has been looted endlessly by the residents of Marog ever since the disappearance of the Dwemer, is of very little interest to anyone other than archaeologists and tourists (much as the Pyramids of Giza, for example). Therefore when the 'extra bits' are discovered, I don't believe this is a sudden 'floodgate' moment after which the ruin becomes teeming with rival people all struggling for their part of the ruin. The only people who know are the IAS. They have no reason to share with anyone else, so they won't. Any elite tomb-robbers are elsewhere, far far away from Kemel-Ze, which they believe to be pretty much finished, and anyway too full of archaeologists to be worth sneaking around in.

Similarly, the Telvanni (under Lord Athyrion) don't really give a damn about Kemel-Ze. It is of no interest other than being a source of revenue from those daffy archaeologists (who presumably pay some kind of honorary rent, even though all Dwemer ruins are anyway technically the Emperor's possession) and the tourists.

Finally, I don't want this quest line just to become some "Royal Rumble in the Ruins" 'showdown' between huge vying factions. It's just you vs. the Dwemer. That's what it's about. That is more fun (in my opinion) than going into an 'undiscovered ruin' and then just dodging various themed enemies (even if there are 'stealthy options' or whatever). I would like combat in these quests to be kept to an absolute minimum (and that doesn't mean 'options to avoid', it just means 'not much time spent listening to the combat music engaging enemy after enemy').

What's important to remember is that 'unlooted ruin' isn't of itself a fun experience. It happens every time the player walks into a Dwemer ruin in the game (Kemel-Ze is a huge exception in that parts have been looted). Picking up 'some cool and rare Dwemer artifact' is not actually of itself a fun experience. Fighting 'some super strong enemy' is not of itself a fun experience, especially in Morrowind's engine. While in real life, or a different game, these things might be very fun, in Morrowind, they're not really. In order to be great quests, what we really needs is a great series of inventive and original 'scenarios', largely generated by interior work and scripting of puzzles, not by a quest, because one would hope that dialogue would be minimal in the undiscovered areas. What we really need is someone like Hemitheon to come and make us a really great set of ints for this questline. Then planning could begin in earnest, deciding how the quests would guide the player through this unique experience.

As I said right up-top in the claim, this is a low priority questline for me right now. I am more concerned about miscs and the 'key factions', which gives this questline a lot of time to develop and mature, and for us to get some ints and scripts together.

Now, this is all my opinion. You can either agree or disagree, but either way, this is my opinion and it's not going to be changed by argument.

You can either take what I say into account, or politely ignore me and make the questline so good that I have no choice but to say yes.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:27 pm

I would agree with what Bloodthirsty has said here, mostly. Kemel-Ze is awesome, and a questline concerning it should be so as well. It is a showcase of the amazing interior work TR is capable of, and the quest should be an incentive to venture further.

Concerning what has been said over this being the only IAS location: I disagree with that idea. The IAS is indeed a facilitator for the type of quest, as the EEC is for Bloodmoon. However, the quest style can be expanded to several other large scale ruins, such as Dun Akafell, and possibly some others. Nonetheless, it should remain a rare, unique opportunity to the player, and I feel only low level membership, if any should be given. The IAS is a society of scholars, and whilst some players may have extensive knowledge, Morrowind isn't a history exam. The player's role should be limited to that of an archaeologist with brains and brawl: he can solve complex puzzles, and fight against whatever aggressive obstacles block his way.

Also, if Hemitheon doesn't return from whatever place he is, I believe Zalz can nicely make a Dwemer ruin (during the linking I found one of his interiors for Map 3, with the underground tunnel complex, which featured a complex puzzle.)

All in all: the IAS must not degenerate into a "loot this ruin for X gold" group. It must be a special type of quest, offering a chance to learn more of Morrowind's history, and be fun and exciting at the same time.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:00 pm

We should have a brainstorming session for awesome puzzles.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:11 pm

Well, I don't see how could my quest ideas substract anything from the impression of Kemel-Ze you are trying to achieve, rather then add to it.

The guards and scavengers will not get to the totally deepest levels, but they can still be scattered around the mid-levels to fill otherwise empty halls and keep player alert while he is venturing through them.

The exploration, puzzles and you vs. Dwemer will happen in lower levels. It is quite a long journey from the archaeologist base down to the new cells and player will have to make it several times. Is this supposed to be allways unexciting venture?

So there still will be lots of opportunities for puzzles and exploration, and I agree that the main fun factor will be the environment, but some plot and development of situation can only add to liveliness of the place. To solve the puzzles in order to open new areas you really do not need any quests at all.

Well, IMO beautiful interiors without any conflict going in them are just empty shell. Even puzzles get boring if there is really no purpose in solving them. Player should have at least some feeling of an achievement, like opening the treasury etc.

EDIT: But I don't want to argue neither. In fact I have realized I just need a break from TR. So let's someone else have a try.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:13 pm

Well, I hope you'll have a good break and come back refreshed and ready to continue your work! Exteriors especially is gonna miss you!

And yes, I pretty much entirely agree with your statements. (Although I still disagree on scavengers and tomb-robbers

)

Some points coming off of that:

"Is this supposed to be allways unexciting venture?" Hearing this reminded me of what I based the puzzles I added to Kemel-Ze on - those classic adventure games, Legend of Zelda, and also Metroid. (On a side note, the Zelda 'tinkly chime' moment is what I want Kemel-Ze to be full of

) and of course they always have a way to skip the boring bits because you're running back and forth so often. So I think a discovery of a Dwemer lift network or even 'subway' system might be in order. That would be fitting.

I totally agree on the fun factor mainly being the environment, but that puzzles are boring without purpose.

What I think we need to do is wait and get a nice, large extra area full of innovative interioring and puzzly scripts, and then work out what our story is and what the treasures are in relation to that.

That is my final word on this questline for now, probably. As I said, this is not the highest on my priority lists, and for me it largely depends on getting someone inspired to work on those ints first.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:43 pm

areas below the IAS base should not be looted, because looted would mean that everything there is gone - not just enemies but also all valuables and probably all working machines

it should indeed be based around puzzles also. the person this mod needs is aaron, who was a master with the dwemer and with scripting.

that said, there should be combat of course. thats what players are used to. it just isn't the point - the point is the puzzles. there were wolfos in the forest temple too.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:44 am

Okay, whether the IAS is a playable faction or not I made a list of rankings for you guys to consider, the list contains relivant words to do with Archaeology, authoriy figures and other usefull names, they are in no particular order. (thought this might be helpful)

Archaeologian
Authoritarian *
Authoritative *
Classicist
Examiner
Excavator
Explorer
Field Technician
Inquisitor
Investigator
Miner
Pack-Horse/Pack-Guar - (eg. people who carry the equipment)
Paleologist
Paleontologist
Prehistorian
Proctor
Prospector
Researcher
Reviewer
Savant
Virtuoso

*, Quote: "Authoritarian is tyrannical while Authoritative commands respect"

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:54 am

Virtuoso 0.o That term is reserved almost exclusively for musicians, I think.

"I am %NAME, Authoritative of the Imperial Archaeological Society" yeah no

and classicist sounds totally made up

and uh... if you're gonna say archaeo, why say Archaeologian? Why not just "Archaeologist"

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:04 am

the point is for them to be snooty words youve never heard of - "archeologian" is a hundred times better than "archeologist," which every kid wanted to be when they grew up

similarly savant and authoritative are good words, while excavator, researcher, explorer, prospector, and the like are all TERRIBLE. the temple doesn't have a rank like priest, it does have ranks like acolyte, curate, and disciple.

1. Porter
2. Archaeologian
3. ???
4. Authoritative
5. Savant

Head of Faction: ???

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:49 am

What about Purveyor instead of Porter? It would be a lower rank, just after the grunt-work level. First you do grunt work, then you get promoted to Purveyor, or errand boy. Then you can help out with the cool stuff as Archaeologian, then lead other Archaeologians (in theory, not in the actual quests) as an Authoritator, then do whatever Savants do.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:56 am

Actually I think 3 classes would be fine, its not really a faction faction.

The player, not being trained as an archaeologian, starts as a porter, running a few errands, checking on someone down in the ruin. They then are asked to help on some special thing, after which they have earned their credentials and are now an archaeologian. At the end of the quest, they are considered an expert, and are promoted to savant, or similar arcane word for expert.

Only other rank needed is "head of guild rank," all people in the faction other than the head of a dig are either workers, archaeologians, or smarter archaeologians.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:05 pm

Sload's summary sounds fine, and I'd prefer a less long-winded faction. So:

Porter
Archaeologian
Archivist

are the ranks the player can achieve. (summarised: 'working bod', 'bragging rights', 'worthy intellectual')

There is also the, possibly fictional (i.e. he might be in Cyrodiil), rank of the 'Head of the Faction'.

A quick Wiki around turned up the rather delightfully pointless but very important-sounding title of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praelector]Praelector[/url].

Any future discussion should not propose new ranks. I have had enough of that for four threads. If you've got objections to this proposal, make it sensible. If you have no objections, please don't post. I'd really rather these threads were kept simple for future claimants.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:35 pm

Ah, good find Theo!

, we have more ideas for ranks now, and a list of skills, and I found a new favourite quote, heh.

Praelector? That does sounds pretty damn cool, anyway as much as I have contributed alot to this for the rankings, im with BC now on this.
No further disussion about rankings or skill for now.

I think its important we worry about those after the quests have been made, although do keep the skills in mind.

At this point I'm in favour to agree with Sload about the areas where the IAS are. Kemel-Ze is freaking huge, Im sure there is enough content without having other little camps here and there.

If you really did want to outbranch it, you could always work on Hendor-Stardumz (assuming you wanted another large dwemer ruin), although I'm unaware of the future use of this significant place so its probably a solid no.

Lets just see how we go with Kemel-Ze first. then we'll consider other locations.

I also had a "stronghold like" idea (Don't blame me, I have Seyda Vano constantly stuck in my head, cant help it).
Maybe very later on you could help setup a new location or subcamp for the IAS probably near one of the other ruins that connects into Kemel-Ze? or deeper in Kemel-Ze...?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:11 pm

jeez vurr srius sry

dont like archivist. say.. academian?

for "head archaeologian" i literally meant something like head archaeologian, like a fancier word for "head" followed by archaeologian. i guess praelector works.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:31 am

Jeez, I hardly think my post or Theo's post were that bad that they both needed deleting, we're entitled to a freedom of speech as well. As far it goes they were both relivant.

>: [

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:44 am

I have not deleted them, your speech is still free. Similarly, you can continue to post whatever you want.

However, I am getting severely annoyed by people cluttering up these claim threads. Random 'let's throw out some names and half-baked ideas' posts should go in a less purposeful thread.

These threads are here to get together a questline for someone to work on, and discussion of proposed questlines.

Random ideas like 'what about Rank X' and 'hey strongholds would be cool' have no place here. Maybe that's too harsh on my part, but there's nothing stopping you from continuing to help, except that if you're not actually helping, I reserve the right to make these threads intelligible for a claimant.

I'm just trying to remind people that if they want to help questers, throwing out the first random idea that comes to mind is not helpful. We need actual plans and discussion of plans. Prior to this whole 'ranks' fiasco, the thread had been worthwhile discussion of Theo's plans and the direction of the IAS as a faction.

A lot of what followed was highly irrelevant and took the thread in an unhelpful direction. I was having horrible flashbacks to NameDedef where we had two damn pages of people pontificating over a name that was not even going to be in game!

Now, you can continue your contributions if you wish, but please try and think things through and make them relevant to a useful discussion of building a faction questline, not just 'wouldn't it be cool ifs' and unhelpful fixation on the minutiae like rank names. This isn't directed at you specifically, RelinQ, but at everyone throwing names around.

I truly don't want to offend anyone, but please, I do have a 'job' to do as Head of Quests. That includes directing discussions in a helpful manner when needed.

@ Sload, the repetition of '-ian' is a bit odd. Sounds like they're just taking the piss to use the same fake word twice.

I would really like this discussion about silly rank names to be over. Please, if there's more to 'don't like archivist' than just 'don't like', please elaborate. I think it's at the very least 'passable', and frankly for rank names that's all that's needed. I'm not here for an argument: if you have a better name, then I'll listen, but I really want this done.

Sorry.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:48 pm

an archivist is someone who works in or manages an archive. it is a word with a specific definition which is not the function anyone in kemel-ze is performing. this should be obvious to anyone capable of complex thoughts and that you would suggest archivist when it is beyond the realm of possibility that the player would be an archivist in any way speaks rather poorly of your cognizance.

as someone who was once tasked with what you are now tasked with, if you do not want these threads used to discuss the faction that are intended to be discussed in them, perhaps you should start alternative threads where the "clutter" that is actual design can go.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:54 pm

Fair enough, let's use Academian then. Not my favourite, but it'll do. As has been my point all along, rank names really don't mean much.

Regarding your second comment, I will try to be less heavy handed in the future. I will reinstate the one (count it: one) vaguely relevant post from my pile of clutter into this thread, if that appeases you. If you believe any of the other posts in the archived Clutter thread merit discussion or contribute to the development of the IAS faction or questline, feel free to reinstate that yourself.

Having reinstated that one 'useful' post, let me repost my rebuttal to it:

RelinQ wrote: Praelector? That does sounds pretty damn cool, anyway as much as I have contributed alot to this for the rankings, im with BC now on this.
No further disussion about rankings or skill for now.

RelinQ, I am quite astounded at how you immediately ignored my previous post, and then went on to state its conclusion as if you had made it yourself, putting it in bold no less. Do you not realise that those kind of posts are what I was talking about when I said 'unnecessary clutter'?

RelinQ wrote: At this point I'm in favour to agree with Sload about the areas where the IAS are. Kemel-Ze is freaking huge, Im sure there is enough content without having other little camps here and there.

If you really did want to outbranch it, you could always work on Hendor-Stardumz (assuming you wanted another large dwemer ruin), although I'm unaware of the future use of this significant place so its probably a solid no.

Lets just see how we go with Kemel-Ze first. then we'll consider other locations.

The discussion about Kemel-Ze has been had, and as you say, whether we move the faction on elsewhere depends upon how satisfying the final questline turns out to be. The quest designers are more than capable of selecting any future locations without you making decisions for us.

RelinQ wrote: I also had a "stronghold like" idea (Don't blame me, I have Seyda Vano constantly stuck in my head, cant help it).
Maybe very later on you could help setup a new location or subcamp for the IAS probably near one of the other ruins that connects into Kemel-Ze? or deeper in Kemel-Ze...?

A 'stronghold idea' is a bad idea. Too much moving of NPCs, and changing of dialogue. Although there might be some element of a new camp that is just established in one of the further down areas (though I'm unsure how likely that is), there will not be a full-on stronghold moment.

Also, just throwing out ideas like 'what about a stronghold' is alright for Lore+Quests in the very basic design stage, but here in Design we've gone beyond that. In order to make these threads intelligible for a future claimant, it is important that ideas be clear and in quest form, rather than just throwing out anything that comes to mind. Please, if you intend to continue in this thread, you will need to set out your plans for the IAS in a continuous and usable questline plan, or at least by making reference to the context of existing quests. You can certainly offer criticism to existing plans, but that's not what you're doing right now.

I'm sure there are cases in which if you truly have a brilliant idea, you can bring it up here and it's fine (I'm sure I've done this myself in the past). But in this post you just stated some rather obvious facts, a rather unclear idea unrelated to any of the previous discussion, and also directly ignored my words in the previous post. So that's why I'm in a bad mood. Sorry for this, but please can this unhelpful cluttering of this thread stop!

Okay, everybody happy now? Can we now move on and actually develop the faction? (If that's what people are intent on doing at this stage - as I suggested like 10 posts ago, this faction is a low priority, and one that would do better to wait for some nice Dwemer ints which Hemitheon is hopefully working on before discussion, otherwise it will be too aimless)