Map 2 Detailing Area 9 [Swiftoak Woodwarrior] Discussion

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Post by Swiftoak »

No it was a watchtower, but it was so poorly done, I ended up moving whatever was left of the interior into the foreign quarter and had Hem fix it way back when. It wasn't even done in the Necrom tileset.

I was gonna delete it too, but I never got to it.

Okay then.
How about two striders?

One north of the causeway that heads for destinations north of Necrom, perhaps destinations like Alt'Bosara, Tel Muthada, Helnim, whatever Gah Oudarhun is now called, Firewatch. Whatever of those cities have silt stiders..

And another that heads to southern destinations in Map 3 like Almalexia. Considering the size of Necrom and it's strategical location as the eastermost city of Morrowind, also marking a turning point between the central and northeast regions, I think this warrants 2 striders, plus it solves the issue of the strider having to jump the causeway.

This means keeping the strider already in the Foreign Quarter, and just add another one north?

Of course these are my thoughts, and as I know jack about lore, I'll let you decide. :)
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Post by Tyrion »

Wait, since when am I Necrom lore maven? ?(

In my opinion, despite Necrom's size and importance, it shouldn't need another silt strider. One strider with three or four destinations to points west should be enough. There's boat service too so that connects with other coastal towns. The other ports at other towns inland connect with other towns. All in all with the strider and the boats it should be well enough connected. You ought to be able to get to Necrom from every other settlement. Even if you can't get a direct flight from everywhere. The only reason I see adding another port is if you have to go out of your way traveling between towns to get to here. If it's really inconvenient then we can add another port. Until then, I don't see a reason to add another. I don't claim to know a lot of lore behind Necrom, so I don't know how much of a trade center it is. However, I always thought of it more as a ceremonial city than a commercial one.

As for the watchtower itself. It's in too inconvenient a spot for the strider port. Really I only see it being either a watchtower or a lighthouse. We already have the latter. It can be a watchtower, or some crazy guys house. I dunno, we'll worry about that when we get to doing the rest of the interiors.

For now I'm going to just finish the strider port where it is. If somebody decides it should move later on it can always be changed anyway.
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Post by Tyrion »

TESAME: Clean

Fits exterior: Yes



Northmarker set: Yes
Loading errors: No



Review: In addition to all my and RelinQ's previous fixes, in this version I have:

- removed a few more Ordinators and set the ones at the docks to wander

- lowered Temple entrance stairs

- added banner to Torlin: Trader

- linked the watchtower

- moved silt strider port off the southwest end of the Foreign Quarter

- renamed the Slums section so it just read "Necrom"

- made it illegal to sleep at the dock



Comments I'm seriously impressed with this city. The layout and the impression you get from it is stupendous, and it's easily one of the greatest achievements TR has attained so far.

However, I feel it was rushed, especially at the end, to get it done. I understand since it's been in the works so long the desire to get it finished, but I think with another week or two of detailing work this could have been sent to review in a much more polished state. Not that I mind of course :) getting to work on a project like this, even if its just some of the details, was really a treat.

I don't give this a 10 simply because of the changes that had to be made in review. Other than that though, I think you did an amazing job on this one Swiftoak.

Rating 9/10
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"Imagination and memory are but one thing which for diverse considerations have diverse names."

"How dare you question the colonnade!" - one of the Glorious Leaders

"Nemon + IKEA = creationism" - some guy

"The layout is awesome, the scale is awesome, the whole city is just awesome!" - Tyrion on Blacklight, circa 2007
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Excellent to see this reviewed :)

Some of the unplaced/unused items still need cleaning from the file. I can do this if you'd like?
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Post by Tyrion »

Yes please, go right ahead. :)
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Cleaned file:

There are still 2 non-temple interiors with the TR prefix: a manor and a shop. They have been linked, just not named.

Edit: Re-uploaded. Missed a few statics.
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Post by Tyrion »

Thank you very much MaMeeshka!

Those two interiors were given to me by Switftoak. I don't actually know what they're supposed to be named though.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Swifty, did you have any plans on what to do with those new interiors?
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Post by Swiftoak »

I do! I'm gonna send out a list tomorrow! Today was hectic for me in terms of RL haha. As for the 2 new ints, I will name them accordingly.

As well that latest file 0.89 has nothing. Corrupt file perhaps?

Anyways I took a look at 0.87 and it looks splendid as usual. There are a few minor fixes still to be done, but I can easily take care of this (the most notable being the messed textures in the slums/foreign quarter gate.

You're such a trooper for going through my carelessness Tyrion! Go grab a beer or something, you deserve it! :P
Also thanks for those who provided error reports! I'll give you special mention in my upcoming blog post.

Anyways I'll send off a list tomorrow and go into further details as to what I think should be done for the interiors.

Goodnight all! :)
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Post by Haplo »

And to think...Necrom started out as this:
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=14547

and turned into this:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4408/necsex.jpg

I won't even post an image of what it looked like BEFORE... I am incredibly busy for the next week (residents are moving into their residence halls next week so until that is finished I will be very busy prepping etc.) so I may not get to this for a little bit.

Also, it should only have one silt strider. The strider should travel to inland towns only, IMO. I almost think that Almalexia is too far away, but that's just an idea (stopping off in Bosmora or some other place, I dunno). The boats will offer travel to the coastal cities.
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Post by Sload »

I want to say, Swiftoak, that I've had my doubts at times. I worried you were leaving too much open space, keeping it too much like the original Necrom. I was completely wrong.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:As well that latest file 0.89 has nothing. Corrupt file perhaps?
Opens fine for me. Want me to reupload?


Edit: some more errors:

- Necrom (353580,-81580,625): barrels and crates are floating

- Necrom, Tower Geth, 1st floor (so American 2nd floor): I fall through the floor when I approach the chest at (3916,4039,12902). I checked several times and fell through the floor each time. The stairs were also quite difficult to climb.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

This file should not contain changes to the Necrom Ordinators. Also, there is no need for a new Ordinator who wanders. Just use TR_ordinator_necrom.

Swifty, if you're doing last tweaks, I'd advocate replacing the green 'sword' Almalexia statue in the row of statues with the grey 'praying' Almalexia statue we have, just so that all the statues are roughly similar in colour.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Ordinators fixed and cleaned. This file has been tested and should work fine. All yours, Swiftoak.
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Post by Tyrion »

I'm glad this turned out so well.

Now things can really start moving. Necrom was a major hurdle to overcome.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Interior plans people! :)

West Block:
#1 should be a gateway complex, like maybe a place for the travellers to rest. Perhaps a place where you can also get your papers into Necrom. This will probably be 3 floors. The main floor, a basement underneath, and a top floor of rooms.

#2 and 3 are obviously not needed as they were deleted.
#4 (the ship at the end) should be a transport ship full of bodies.
#5 Should be a tavern, as well as the ship the player can travel on.
#6 is just a way to get into the Manor District from the West Block. It leads to the other link-less door on the other side of the wall.

Nothing else needed for the Manor district :)

And at last, the plan for the temple.

The temple's Canton/complex thingy (that's what I'm calling it now) will consist of four levels. The details of how the interior is arranged will be up to the claimer, but this should be somewhat of an outline to follow.

The bottom level is the top floor of the catacombs, plus a storage area, and perhaps the prison (It would be neat if the player was given a chance to escape if jailed if he/she manages to find their way out of the catacombs!) The catacombs should at least be 2 floors below that too.

The 2nd level will be the main level. Where the player enters. This should be equivalent to the waistworks of any vivec canton. Just places for temple officials to reside in, some highend shops.

The 3rd level will be the administrative level. This would be the temple's main library, offices. (Either her or on the 4th level).

The 4th level is directly under the temple. This should be the Temple's faction hall. IE where you get quests, healing services. Also living quarters and offices of the very highest of Temple Officials. I am not sure at this point if you can access the temple from here. I'm debating whether the Temple itself should have a basement that is part of this level.

The main tower in front will have 5 floors, the entrance floor (door #3 ouside) will lead to the 2nd level of the canton.

Same goes with floors 2 (going to 3rd) 3 (going to 4th).

Floor 4 and 5 will be the ordinator barracks, the 4th floor opening up to the balcony. The 4th floor also leads to an antechamber that leads directly outside into the temple garden right in front of the temple itself.

The two towers on the side will just be i don't know, towers. Probably ordinator storage/watch towers, just another way for the player to access the temple garden's left and right wings.

There will be four watchtowers, all four will be in one cell. They should offer access to all floors, and perhaps the catacombs.


Then let's deal with the catacombs.
The catacombs will consist partially of the first floor of the compound and should go about a level or two underneath. There are 3 (maybe 4) entrance points. Two are on the west and east walls of the compound (Both #2s on Tyrion's map).
One is in the cemetery directly across from the tower on the east side (#1).
The maybe one is the one on the west side in front of the small block of buildings on the southwest (#6). Whether this is a seperate tomb, or will lead into the catacombs is in the air for now.

The catacombs bottom most floor should contain the tombs of the saints, and something big. Again how the specifics of this possibly massive dungeon will be up to the claimant. They will also contain the tombs of many nobles and temple officials.

Finally let's deal with the notion of a possible sewer complex under Necrom. Nothing as big as Old Mournhold, but giving the city a seemy underbelly. I say we have four main sewers, which won't be big.

One under the docks leading to the the West Block, one under the West Block, One under the manor, and one under the Temple Garden. The one in the temple garden will also give access to the tombs and catacombs stated above.

Note this is a tentative plan, so take it with a grain of salt. Nothing here should be definite, and I know this is going to be debated. This is only to provide a basic outline of what the interiors COULD be like).
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Post by Tyrion »

All three of those ships at the docks need interiors. I just forgot to label the one.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

I don't think necrom needs sewers.

Also, what image is this with the numbers?
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Also, what image is this with the numbers?
Last page (pg.14), something like the 8th post.
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Post by Tyrion »

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote: #4 (the ship at the end) should be a transport ship full of bodies.
#5 Should be a tavern, as well as the ship the player can travel on.
Bodies? Like slaves, or did you have in mind a ship full of corpses...? I dont know about the tavern idea for the ship, I'd rather it were just a trade/transport ship.

Swiftoak Woodwarrior wrote:The bottom level is the top floor of the catacombs, plus a storage area, and perhaps the prison (It would be neat if the player was given a chance to escape if jailed if he/she manages to find their way out of the catacombs!) The catacombs should at least be 2 floors below that too.
Separate the storage and the catacomb levels. The catacombs should be under the rest of the Temple structure, and could even incorporate natural passageways and hand cut tunnels beneath that. Incorporating a secret passageway to the catacombs might be a possible idea though.

SwiftoakWoodwarrior wrote:There will be four watchtowers, all four will be in one cell. They should offer access to all floors, and perhaps the catacombs.
No entrance to the catacombs.
SwiftoakWoodwarrior wrote:Then let's deal with the catacombs.
The catacombs will consist partially of the first floor of the compound and should go about a level or two underneath. There are 3 (maybe 4) entrance points. Two are on the west and east walls of the compound (Both #2s on Tyrion's map).
One is in the cemetery directly across from the tower on the east side (#1).
The maybe one is the one on the west side in front of the small block of buildings on the southwest (#6). Whether this is a seperate tomb, or will lead into the catacombs is in the air for now.

The catacombs bottom most floor should contain the tombs of the saints, and something big. Again how the specifics of this possibly massive dungeon will be up to the claimant. They will also contain the tombs of many nobles and temple officials.
It makes sense to put storage on the bottom level, less stairs to carry things up, and the prison or whatever else you want to put on that level. I think it'd be nice to give a bottom level access point to the Temple complex. The catacombs should go beneath this. I think if the west door in the graveyard leads to the catacombs and the east one to storage then that would be better than both leading to the catacombs themselves. I just don't like the catacomb/storage idea/prison idea.

I know I'll probably get a million references to catacombs being used as both these things in the real world, but this isn't the real world, and these aren't normal catacombs either.
SwiftoakWoodwarrior wrote:Finally let's deal with the notion of a possible sewer complex under Necrom. Nothing as big as Old Mournhold, but giving the city a seemy underbelly. I say we have four main sewers, which won't be big.
Necrom doesn't need a seemy underbelly, but I don't see a problem with giving it a sewer system, it's certainly big enough. Using the Vivec sewer set could work for a limited system. Nothing big or complex though.
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Post by Haplo »

In a world without toilets, Necrom doesn't need sewer systems.
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Post by Sload »

The lower area is like a giant pit being dug out of the ground; it is far less decorative than the areas above it. It has a sort of industrial feel because of this, making it ideal as the mortuary works - with the entrances to the catacombs as well. Above would be more upper class, with many manors of wealthy temple members.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Shouldn't the catacombs be solely accessable from the interior of the temple?
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Post by Tyrion »

I think the tomb building in the graveyard ought to have a small, mausoleum-like interior, with no connection to the catacombs itself, as should the mausoleum at #6. You could use the #2 door in the graveyard to access the catacombs and the other that exits to the temple grounds to access the lower level of the Temple substructure.

Either that, or make both #2 doors to the Temple substructure and instead limit access to the catacombs to the interior of the Temple itself.
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Post by Sload »

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:Shouldn't the catacombs be solely accessable from the interior of the temple?
I don't think so. It's not as if they're secret.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

they may not be secret, but you'd think that since it is such a holy place, the dunmer would want to have the entrance guarded by suitably holy people. If you can just walk right in from the outside, then any joe outlander can walk in defile up the place. Remember the lower section is where people first come into the town.
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Post by Haplo »

Perhaps placing the catacombs under the temple would excuse away the huge mound I suggested Swiftoak place the temple upon.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Haplo wrote:Perhaps placing the catacombs under the temple would excuse away the huge mound I suggested Swiftoak place the temple upon.
But I like that huge mound! :P

I just remerged the city with the surrounding detailing claim again, and what I see is stunning.

The temple is visible clearly 8 cells away from the city in any given direction. Anyone using MGE will be in for a treat :)

Necrom as an exterior as far as I`m concerned is done. All I`m doing now is re-detailing the surrounding cells which appear empty by today`s standards.

Meaning the next file that will come will be detailing 9 as a whole from now on.

This should be moved to Finished the moment I post that file.
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Post by Haplo »

Are you trying to skip the review process now? I still need to do a final review of the city, as well as a check of the rest of the claim, especially if you are adding more detail to several cells.

Remember to turn those precarious goat paths at the beginning of the Necrom bridge into proper roads.
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Post by Sload »

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:they may not be secret, but you'd think that since it is such a holy place, the dunmer would want to have the entrance guarded by suitably holy people. If you can just walk right in from the outside, then any joe outlander can walk in defile up the place. Remember the lower section is where people first come into the town.
then lock the entrance from that area. its how they get the bodies in there.
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Post by MMMowSkwoz »

Are the object errors being handled?
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Post by Aeven »

I have this idea for the Necrom underground, which I'll now lay out before you.

Underneath Necrom lies an ancient cavern system, which originally consisted of a small number of ancestral tombs built into the rock similar to the regular variant. At the time, these were above ground. These were built in the High Velothi style. With time, people came to build on top the older tombs, and as such, the city rose over the ages. Similar to ancient Rome, the oldest catacombs are the lowest. The oldest of tombs are the simplest, and in later times, as the importance of Necrom grew, so did the complexity of the tombs and the caverns. These caverns are only half natural in the sense they are made of ground, but without Dunmeri influence, they would never have existed.

Under the Temple Mount lye the most important of tombs, and these are in the Necrom style, as are tombs of which were first built during the second of half the Second Era and onwards. The cavern system lies underneath the entire city, and I don't find it unthinkable that they extend even further. The caverns contain within them the entrances into the actual tombs, which would bear great resemblance to the aboveground tomb entrances: until the building of the current temple, these were all built above ground, only to later be buried by the ever increasing dead needing burial, and the city above being built on top of to accommodate this development. The caverns also extend to the harbour, where the bodies come into the city.

The caverns are guarded by the Necrom Ordinators in the upper levels (I imagine there to be three significant layers: oldest in original Velothi, the mid-period Necrom style, certainly the entrance, possible deeper being Velothi, and more simple in style, and the third most recent layer entirely in Necrom style, and most elaborate), and the lower levels guarded by the (non-hostile, as some may still visit the most ancient tombs. Perhaps some holy or important people are buried there) Bonelords. It isn't unthinkable some tombs were originally occupied by an important family from really ancient times (the Ra'athims for example) only to have abandoned the older tombs and moved everyone to a newer tomb under the Temple Mount.

I am wondering if the caverns would have "districts" in the House sense. Many families transcended the House system, and Necrom pre-dates it too. Also some vendors may be present in the underground, perhaps selling offerings which can be left in the tombs.

Entrances to the underground would be found in: the harbour, the Temple interior, the base of the mount, and perhaps the Old City through some sort of small exterior building.

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For implementing my idea it may be best to make this enormous cave system one claim, and make the individual tombs (perhaps cluster them or the amount would be too big possibly) claims of their own. Similar to the Almas Thirr approach.
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Post by Hemitheon »

what exactly is mid-period Necrom style?
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Bloodthirsty Crustacean
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

He means 'the middle [section] [will be done] Necrom style'.
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Aeven
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Post by Aeven »

I realise no such period exists in tileset terms. I imagine that for tombs, this would be a period of traditional building along the Velothi line: simple and not too grand. In my imagination, the newest tombs, especially under the Temple Mount, are more impressive to see. The actual Necrom architecture is I believe a period when Necrom becomes a real city, rather than a collection of tombs and associated businesses.

EDIT: For clarity, I do not believe the visible city to be very new. In fact, even the Temple should have an underground to it. Even if it is the shiniest, it's very old and the oldest building in the city. Each time the city was renewed, the new Temple was built atop the old one (not literally but you get the idea. Stuff was somewhat demolished to get a workable surface to build upon). In the cavities left by the older temple, new tomb vaults (this would be the second layer under the Temple, as the first layer, also the structure of the older Temple building, would be in use as a place for priests. Altars et c. are probably much older than the outer structure, though probably decorated further (think of the Ka'aba in Mecca).

This brings about the discussion what sort of holy item and/or altar would reside in the Temple.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Badda boom badda bing, it's fresh out of the oven!

The biggest changes I made to parts outside Necrom:
-detailed the empty area left from the old version of Necrom.
-fixed the waterfall (kinda) west of the city.
-fixed up some road/vertex shading in random parts of the claim.
-added a sanctuary for a spare interior (formerly the Neommaeor temple) along the road west of Necrom.

Changes I made to the city (not much)
-fixed some minor floaters and misc. itty bitty stuff RelinQ and Tyrion found.
-replaced the Almalexia statue in the Temple garden as per BC's request.
-Centered those domes for Hem.

Final Notes:
-Apart from the interiors needed for the Necrom Temple area, there are 3 missing interiors outside the city.

-1 farmouse in the south end of the claim. (I believe there used to be an interior called palisatt's farmhouse, but I couldn't find it so it probably needs to be remerged)

-1 stronghold (probably small-midsized) in the south end. I believe a claim was made for this but I never found it/or it was never finished.

-1 cave under the waterfall west of Necrom.


Anyways as far as I'm concerned, this exterior is 100% done and ready for final reviewing. This is Necrom with the rest of Map 2 detailing 9.

I'm going to be off for vacation for the rest of the month, so I can't answer any questions or fix anything else. I might drop by a few times if I have access to a computer. :)

Take care, and cheers! :D
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Post by Hemitheon »

Some Notes:

1. The stairway to the Necrom Watchtower needs to be redone in Necrom style. If it's not feasible, what about an underground passage to the tower?.

2. The path to the causeway is TIGHT. I had a thought--what if instead of squeezing in a wall, why not remove the wall and place braziers along the path. That way at night, pilgrims coud follow the fires. It could also be extended all the way to the neck of the peninsula which is close by.

3. Someone will need to remove all Dunmer stuff from the exterior of Drakehold--the OM statues and caskets and Hlaalu ashpit are totally out of place.

4. I found 2 ships (one afloat; one wrecked)without interiors at 47, -13.

5. Something's still bugging me about the Necrom Temple Avenue; Sotha Sil needs to be present there no matter what. If anything get rid of the Redoran soldier statues or Llothis, God knows he's everywhere else.
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Post by Aeven »

Under one of the ships in Necrom is a landspike, reaching well into the ship's hull.
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Post by Aeven »

Any chance some real discussion could arise from my idea for the catacombs?

Either like it, hate it, or build upon it or something?
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Post by Swiftoak »

I don't know!

For me so long as there is a temple complex + catacombs, I'll be happy. Sewers were optional, but upon second thought really do seem impractical after all. Though you could have some fun with the tileset :P
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