Necromancy and Assholes: A Morag Tong Discussion

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:01 am

Reading the historical novel 2920, it talks of a "Night Mother", seemingly a priestess of Mephala, acting as head of the Morag Tong, or at least the intermediary between them and their clients. Ref here (http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/2920.shtml#7 it's the Tel Aruhn entry, apparently that's where the Mother stays).

So this says to me the the Grandmaster in Vvardenfell is not the boss of the whole Morag Tong (I hoped so, since his place is a dump). And it's the Night Mother who's really running things, handing out the writs, etc. Maybe there's a council of all the Grandmasters from each district who meet once a year or something, but she seems like the real boss.

I'm actually leaning towards the idea that there should be no pre-grandmaster Morag Tong quests on the mainland. You started off in Vvardenfell, and you need to work up through the ranks there before anyone on the mainland will deal with you. That way there can be no conflicts between the two questlines. Alternately maybe the normal guildhalls will have some mundane writs for pre-guildmaster members, but no real quest line. The real quest line for the MT starts once you're head of the Vvardenfell chapter. Then you start taking orders from the Night Mother herself, and the fun begins.

From there we could go with the spoken-of theme of Dark Brotherhood infiltration, and that conflict. But I'm kind of wondering what other things the Tong have their hands in, are they involved in the drug trade in Morrowind at all? Do they have any political clout other than being just hired killers? Something that would interest me, though might be beyond scope, would be the Tong trying to regain the turf they lost since the Brotherhood came on the scene. Yes, the Tong are banned everywhere but Morrowind, but the Brotherhood are banned everywhere period. I'd want to see the Tong try to supplant/wipe out the Brotherhood and take their place as the one killer's guild in Tamriel.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:14 am

hmmm way to raise the dead here.

uh okay wtf, I'm not great when it comes to lore, but I'm pretty sure the "Night Mother" is NOT the head of the Morag Tong.

UESPWiki + notes wrote:Oblivion indicates that there is a single Night Mother, the ghost of a woman who formed the Dark Brotherhood. In Morrowind, an Imperial woman named Severa Magia was identified as the local Night Mother of the Dark Brotherhood in Vvardenfell (Relinq: Which you then end up killing). It is possible that the term is used to indicate a local leader as well as the Unholy Matron herself.

Hopefully that clarifies something.

The Morag Tong is a crucially important faction within Morrowind's history. TR here, has excellent Lore experts, as far as anything lore goes, lets leave it to people who actaully have an idea of what they're talking about. (And yes that means I'll shut up and all)

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:28 am

Well, you could have bothered to actually read the reference I posted, which would have clarified things. And since the MT started off as a spinoff/immitation of the Morag Tong, it's not hard to think that "Night Mother" was something inherited.

Faalen · Post by **Faalen** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:24 am

It isn't generally a good plan for a brand new member to take a snarky tone when disagreed with. In fact, that's not a good plan for anyone. I think what you're missing is that the Night Mother is a Dark Brotherhood thing, not Morag Tong. Even if you have found a round-the-block excuse in lore to connect the warring assassins guilds, it still stands that, seeing as there's a Tong mission to kill the Night Mother, it would make little sense to the player to have that title pop up in the wrong guild. In any case, the Morag Tong questline is quite low on the list of priorities at the moment, so this discussion has little bearing on the work at hand. Also, this thread was long-dead when you posted in it, which violates the necromancy ban on these forums.

EDIT: Rather than dignify this argument with yet another pointless post, I'll just say here that I object to your arrogance and confrontational attitude. My post was not intended as "dick-waving", nor was I trying to belittle a new member. I was conversationally stating a couple of rules of conduct on these forums, and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it as an argument. If one reads a message with the expectation to be pissed off by it, one is rarely disappointed. With this edit, I'm out.

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:43 am

Faalen wrote:It isn't generally a good plan for a brand new member to take a snarky tone when disagreed with. In fact, that's not a good plan for anyone. I think what you're missing is that the Night Mother is a Dark Brotherhood thing, not Morag Tong. Even if you have found a round-the-block excuse in lore to connect the warring assassins guilds, it still stands that, seeing as there's a Tong mission to kill the Night Mother, it would make little sense to the player to have that title pop up in the wrong guild. In any case, the Morag Tong questline is quite low on the list of priorities at the moment, so this discussion has little bearing on the work at hand. Also, this thread was long-dead when you posted in it, which violates the necromancy ban on these forums.

Uh. Ok. Your guy here was being way more of an ass than me, just out of the blue assuming I had no idea what I was talking about, despite knowing nothing of the lore in question.

Who could even say what the Night Mother is and isn't? In Oblivion she's some kind of spirit who leads the whole guild, in Morrowind she's just a human boss in Vvardinfell, and in that book she's the head of the Morag Tong. I can go on, but whatever.

This is the only thread that discusses the MT quests. If a new one needs to be made, fine. And just a little more "stupid n00b" advice, mindless seniority dick-waiving does not a good forum make.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:32 am

i think faalen is obviously the ass hole here - who wants to live in goddamn dairyland?

2920 is bad genre fiction in which the alma, the magus, and the head of the psijics sit around and drink tea and in which vivec is fooled by harry potter water breathing bullshit. its not lore in the sense that you obviously don't understand and its not lore in the sense that you do - [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/writers.shtml]even its author has its author admit[/url] that its "conjecture based on research."

what this means is that the night mother can be used if decides it's a good idea, or it can ignore that godawful "book" and make a morag tong that's actually cool. that's what the lore actually says.

now all three of you can put your fucking cocks away before i cut them off. aiaiaiai

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:04 pm

2920 is bad genre fiction in which the alma, the magus, and the head of the psijics sit around and drink tea

You stole my one-liner.

Though you redeemed yourself with

now all three of you can put your fucking cocks away before i cut them off. aiaiaiai

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:39 pm

Sload wrote:what this means is that the night mother can be used if decides it's a good idea, or it can ignore that godawful "book" and make a morag tong that's actually cool. that's what the lore actually says.

You're missing a couple nouns here, so I can't even tell quite what you're saying. But all I did at the beginning is throw out an idea. Regardless of your ill-stated opinion, there is no definitive lore regarding how the MT actually work, what their rules and customs are, what their power structure is, and how they interact with their clients. The Night Mother idea is one possibility that I found, if people don't like it, whatever. Maybe that book isn't completely accurate, but it's something.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:27 pm

sload is difficult to understand at times. Fun Fact: You pretty much are both in agreement about there being no lore and that if those who decide lore like the idea, then we will use the night mother.

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18332]Recommended reading[/url]

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:05 am

From "[url=http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/brothers_of_darkness.shtml]The Brothers of Darkness[/url]" by Pellarne Assi, which has appeared in MW and Daggerfall

All leaders of the Morag Tong, and then the Dark Brotherhood, have been called the Night Mother. Whether the same woman has commanded the Dark Brotherhood since the second era is unknown. What is believed is that the original Night Mother developed an important belief of the Morag Tong.

"To find the facts, the wisest always look first to the fiction." ..And bother to look at all.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:58 am

Hey, dumbass, clap-clap, listen here! The singular word missing in that sentence is "it's," which is a contraction of a pronoun and a verb. I may drop adjectives, copulae, articles, interjections, or a whole host of other things, but I am very careful to include all of nouns and take great offense at any suggestion otherwise.

Contrary to what many of the chumps I work with on this project will probably fall over themselves to tell you, adherence to lore is not strict adherence to every individual text. Lore is a question of style - mainland Morrowind must feel like the original game, and present a similar aesthetic. This is what lore is, not shitty pretend books.

You clearly won't be much help with this, because no one with taste would have adopted the adornments and conceits that you have, so run along and bother someone else with your haughty, imperious Queen of Darkness routine. If you're not going to be right, at least be polite.

And just by the way, because I do contain multitudes, "Brothers of Darkness" is clearly a Daggerfall text, whatever game it appears in, and clearly contradicts Morrowind, presenting the Morag Tong as a cult (in fact a "witch's coven"!) which no longer exists but which resurfaced under another name, makes no mention of Morrowind, and is even internally inconsistent with regards to dates. Its trash, its useless, its nonsense.

Now go away.

MMMowSkwoz · Post by **MMMowSkwoz** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:08 am

Oh, how I love the friendly welcoming atmosphere here...

Can we not just be nice to someone for once?

wintermute213 · Post by **wintermute213** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:45 am

MMMowSkwoz wrote:Oh, how I love the friendly welcoming atmosphere here...

Can we not just be nice to someone for once?

In total honesty, the problem here is that people like Sload up there don't deserve authority over this (or probably anything), because they're obviosuly incapable of not taking it personally when disagreed with. It would foster a much better atmosphere if he were to leave.

I haven't been entirely civil here, true, but sload has obviosuly gone well above and beyond just being pointed, and is making an utter cunt of himself. And for no better reason than me pushing a different view. First he doesn't like 2920, and calls it a bad source of lore, then when I refer to something else he says the lore isn't really important, and apparently Bethesda's work doesn't matter when coming up with the mod (against your own stated objectives), and presumably he can make up whatever he wants. It's painfully obvious that he just isn't mature enough to separate the issue of lore in a game with his own petty little notion of authority. (And yes BoD was in MORROWIND TOO, and its information isn't contradicted by anything).

I really hope you guys find someone decent to do this, mostly for your own sake. Bye.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:07 am

I'm going to split and archive this, sending the original thread back down to the depths it should never have left. Sload is not the problem, it is when bad ideas take hold. This was a bad idea, it is good that it is dieing.