The Praetorian Guards

[Kothloth]

http://www.freewebs.com/praetorian_guard/

A very basic description of this faction is that it's the Imperials elite soldiers and that it's a faction that was worked out from lore.

It was developed by Munkie and Yinni and a lot of the contents has already been written. Even great looking weapons and armour meshes was made for it. And if we are to add it, it's time to do so now before the exteriors are completed, since it will require a Praetorian castle to be made. And since I'm an old fan of this faction, aswell as I've been planning on what to do after Almalexia, I might take the job on to finish thier work.

[Skurvy]

Okay, ive had a chat with Munkie and a quick peruse of the website - i have to say that this faction is looking like a great idea!!

They are basically an elite force for the Empire, with around one garrison per province, tasked with doing all the jobs the Legion can't (including protecting their backs as they retreat!!)

I dont have any problem with the lore that ive seen, i think it should be implemented for TR

Great work on the arms and armour too, it looks fantastic!!

Skurvy

[Haplo]

Yeah, they are the personal/palace guard type thing.
We had a small discussion during the Skyrim meeting on Saturday about this as well.

[Anonymous]

Kothloth, the website mentions a fort housing these Praetorians somewhere near Firewatch. This would be a great location for the first quest of the Morrowind MQ. Please consider it, and check out [url=http://tr.silgrad.com/thread.php?threadid=2766&boardid=118&styleid=1&sid=4d25862063313fc410dbaf2f40adcb68]this[/url] thread for more information on what the quest entails. I really like your idea, and I think it would be not only a great addition to TR, but also a wonderful faction for the high-level players out there bored with the ordinary Legion quests. It fits the project perfectly.

[Munkie]

What I've written on the site is rather outdated. My main site has gone down and this site was an old mirror that I never decided to update. There will only be one garrison per province with their main citadel being in Cyrodill. Their Morrowind garrison will be near Old Ebonheart. Second, I'd like to state that I can only see this as an NPC faction..for now.

[Kothloth]

Indeed it can be hard to make a joinable faction, due to the fact that they aren't a very large one.

However, this never excludes the quests afflicted to them, right?

[Prowler]

mmh, I think we need a good storyline before we start whit that.

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying make it joinable; I'm just saying could it would be an interesting element to have in the mainland MQ. And if you're worried about a storyline, Prowler, I suggest you make your comments (and contributions) [url=http://tr.silgrad.com/thread.php?threadid=2396&boardid=118&styleid=1&sid=49a20c2c34a4ab61fb47362bcfca45e8]here[/url].

Perhaps the Praetorians temporarily occupied an abandoned Imperial building near Firewatch? I'm only pushing it because it's relatively easy to reach from Vvardenfell and thus an excellent place to start the new MQ.

[Xerox]

love your conversions,

but here is the thing, "praretorian guard" in real life was the worst back stabing trators in the history of the roman empire, they killed a good # of emperors, disturbing considering that they were supposed to PROTTECT the emperor. The actual dress was of regal purple,

From what i undestand reading the lore, the imperial bodigars in the game are actualy very loyal...might be wrong.

So in morrowind, these imperial guards that you see are actualy wearing the Praretorian uniforms. you se purple dye was prohibetevly expensive for majority of people, and to outfit an entire legion, would cost the empror more then paying praretorian salaries for a year (they got paid 2X the normal legionary salary, wich by those standards recieved big bucks).

i'm not 100% sure on this but every pic of praretorian guard i saw they had oval shields, like auxilary roman units , not tower ones of the legion, makes sense since praretorians never actualy had to fight in tight formations. They were more of a bodyguards.

Check out a trailer for "Rome: Total War", General in there has a preaty cool loking colour sceeme, may be that can be used for officers core or something.

Also, when you 'beat' (if its posible) the game you become a high ranking blade, so shouldn't that make you a member?

[Munkie]

I see that I failed to state that the name Praetorians is a namesake only. I've taken alot of liberties to change these Praetorians from their real world counterparts. Also may I say before posting in this damn thread...read the site. It's outdated but it should be enough. That way it'll spare the thread of useless nonsense about how the Praetorians are just the Emperor's personal guard and such. Stop the real life comparisons.

Also I don't mind what's being talked about in the thread but once things become repetitive...it tends to get extremely annoying and frustrating. For example, the Praetorians are bodyguards for the Emperor. Enough of that. I'm sorry for sounding like an ass but all of you would be annoyed too if the same things kept on being said over and over. And no more history lectures.

Xerox:

Enough with the history lecture as well...I've studied Roman history...in depth. So shut it about the damn real life Praetorians. Traitors? I think the word entrepeneurs fits better. You'd sell Rome too if you could. And how many of those Emperors did they kill were actually competent besides Pertinax?

Who here doesnt know that purple was the royal color? How expensive it was for purple dye?

They weren't paid twice the amount that the legionairres were paid. They were paid how ever much they wanted that would make them happy and keep that emperor that paid them in power.

Those screens are from last summer. Extremely outdated. So blah with their dress code as well. They will don black.

The Blades are the intelligence core of the Empire. Being a high ranking Blade does not constitute one for the rights to join the Praetorians. Two different organizations.

Nehron:

Even if I wanted to do what you suggested, It can't really happen considering the fact that the Firewatch exterior is already finished. There will only be one Praetorian garrison in the province and it will be near Old Ebonheart.

[Xerox]

Xerox:

Enough with the history lecture as well...I've studied Roman history...in depth. So shut it about the damn real life Praetorians. Traitors? I think the word entrepeneurs fits better. You'd sell Rome too if you could. And how many of those Emperors did they kill were actually competent besides Pertinax?

Who here doesnt know that purple was the royal color? How expensive it was for purple dye?

They weren't paid twice the amount that the legionairres were paid. They were paid how ever much they wanted that would make them happy and keep that emperor that paid them in power.

Those screens are from last summer. Extremely outdated. So blah with their dress code as well. They will don black.

The Blades are the intelligence core of the Empire. Being a high ranking Blade does not constitute one for the rights to join the Praetorians. Two different organizations.

Dude, no need to get insulted here, I'm just giving my view on the whole topic here. As for Roman Emperors you do have a point, but lets call a spade a spade shall we? If you sell out your imployer what are you?

The purple dye was expensive enough to be a precious trade commodity, and its trade was enough to fight and kill over. If you want me to give you an accurate figure in weight of silver, accounting for inflation and compensating for relative worth of silver in Nero's Era VS today, I'm sorry I can't.

As for Rome: TOTAL WAR, i proposed you view the FILM, its relatively new, and the general atire does look cool.

[Anonymous]

I really advise against adding the Preatorian guard because they are not needed. A Preatorian is a branch of a legion used for home land defense, in morrowind since the guards dont do much out of town fighting they serve as the preatorian.

yet... i could be wrong and not understand why you want to use them, they at one point where also used as the personal guard for important people.[/quote]

[Anonymous]

please excuse any mistakes you fin in my post because im new here and arent accustemed to the system here.

[wererat]

this is off topic but welcome to TR!

[Anonymous]

thank you, im glad to be here

[Icarus]

personally I like the idea of an elite guard as a joinable faction. It's not uncommon in history, in fact a lot of armies have them, and it adds a faction that would be more suited to higher level characters with more demanding quests.

[Jacurutu]

I don't think that I'd make the Praetorians a joinable faction. They're a wee bit too small of a group (traditionally) for that.

You could create some interesting lore involving the Praetorian Guard setting up a number of Emperors (like the Romans) and killing the ones who are doing a particularly bad job (Romans: Caligula )

[Class Creator]

Actually, the Praetorians, both historically were RELATIVELY small...

That is they numbered at tops about 10,000 compared to a 50,000 man Legionary.

So, while not necessarily, small, the Praetorians were an elite force of Guards.

So why shouldnt we get them as a playable faction, but as suggested before, only joinable after completing the Legion Quests.

[Yinnie]

Well, thank you Kothloth.

Just an update.

I have actually finished with the armour and everything connected with PG except for the helmet which I will.... umm.. start now..
It will be nice if you guys start on with the Keep's and exterior buildings per se as discussed all those yonks ago.. Its easier for me to work on things that I know in my jumbled up head and memories... and as discussed all those yonks ago I will start on thinking the needed interiors for Keeps and garrisons. Also... banners and flags and what-not was also created.... but if you guys have any more ideas on what else that I could umm.. do.. that will be nice..

So, my lord Kothloth, I owe you a helmet. Actually 2, one for High Ranking Officers, and one for the common people like me Just yell... to remind me to work on it ASAP.

Yinnie...

[Jacurutu]

Roman legions actually consisted of 6,000 men, not 50,000. Europe wasn't populated heavily enough for that, and 50,000 man armies usually weren't necessary. Also, we must remember to look at the Praetorian Guard as smaller than the legions. Each legion fortress has between twenty and thirty people in it. The Praetorian Guard, which would be maybe one large Imperial legion garrison, could have fifty people, tops. It would also be only in the Imperial City. We're a ways off from getting there.

[Skurvy]

Roman Rome had a population of 1 million - why would there be a problem raising 50000 soldiers in times of war? Besides, a goodly part of their troops were auxiliaries from conquered lands, not Romans at all!!

Skurvy

[Yinnie]

As also when the Roman were occupting Great Britain all those years ago - you think they didn't take the local people on to join their Legions? and I have watched many many 'What The Romans Did For Us' on BBC 2 to know that only on Hadrian Wall itself there were many small 'Keeps' alternating every metres or so with oh so many soldiers guarding the gate. We're talking about Northern Britain where the wall was... what about the rest of the Roman territories?
I may not be so well 'educated' in the ways of Roman History but I be damned know if there are more than 6000 men garrisoned in Great Britain alone.....
Look, this discussion has been repeated way many many times and yonks ago until I am sick of reading 'oh but this should only be at an Imperial City' nonsense.
This has been discussed, I have made the armour and whatsnot, and we had plans on where and what to put these small teeny 'garrisons'.. we have made concessions... and well, I will be kind and nice to people if, and I repeat IF they start discussing BEYOND that eternal damned nonsensical 'Imperial City' discussion..

Yinnie.

[Skurvy]

Ahhh, 'What the Romans did for us' - you got to love Adam Hart Davis running round the country side like a loon!!

Yin, only Romans are allowed in the legions, but yes there were probably many British mercenaries in the Auxiliary Legions (ie. the non-Roman blokes they threw into battle first)

The little keeps (watch towers to be pernickity) had only three men in each one (approx) and were spaced every 100 metres or so on the wall - but there were garrisons every mile with a fair number of troops in them!

As for legions - a legion consisted of from 5000 to 5500 men, but seldom was a legion ever at its full strength. More often, a legion consisted of 4000 to 4800 combat ready troops. But anyway, there were nine legions in Roman Britain (probably not all at the same time, but id say at least 10-20000 soldiers in this rather small province - trust me, the Roman Army was a LOT bigger than you'd think

Skurvy

[Yinnie]

Yes.. Adam Hart Davis. Custard with Fish Sauce.. yum..

Thank you, Skurvy.

Greetings,
Yinnie.

[Indoril]

The Praetorians (I think i'm spelling it wrong) probably are no different from the duke's guard in Ebonheart Vvardenfell. They are the elite royal guards who protect the emperor and the provincial governer.
Also, the Imperial, though they are mostly Roman-like people, they do have british qualities, with the knights and templar and all.
The Praetorians don't need to match their real life counterparts. They could be basicly the more elite knights of the empire.

[Jacurutu]

To Yinnie Atreidou: The Roman legions were made up of 6,000 people, but there was more than one legion occupying each province. I'm saying that 50,000 men were not kept all together; the logistics of supplying those sizes of armies all the time would be a great a drain on resources and the treasury. The legions would be lumped together for major battles, but that was pretty rare. Second, the city of Rome definitely didn't have 1,000,000 people. Naples in 1500 was the largest Italian (and maybe European) city at about 300,000, and London at the time of the American Revolution (I think, it may have been slightly earlier) was 800,000. There simply wasn't the degree of sanitation and medicine required to support such a large city, one which naturally bred disease by putting people so close to one another (as all cities do). Third, the Romans were not stupid. They kept the people in the province happy (festivals, food, and most importantly, order), and therefore didn't have to support such a large standing army. Anyway, if it isn't historically accurate, that's all right.

To Indoril: Yes, I'd say that the Praetorians are going to be a lot like the Duke's Guard in Ebonheart, but with much cooler armor and a much larger force.

[Skurvy]

Jacurutu, read this article -

http://intarch.ac.uk/antiquity/storey.html

At least half a million seems to be their estimate, with a lot of people erring on the higher side - you'd be very surprised at the high levels of sanitation and medicine in the Roman Empire, particularly within Italy itself.

Skurvy

PS: Anyway, this nonsense is irrelevant to the issue of the Praetorian Guards, who are (altogether now!) 'not based on the ones from historical Rome!!'

[Jacurutu]

Yes, there was a great scattering of people from Rome after the empire fell apart. The city itself was burned by raging northern barbarians, so it was much smaller in the time of the Renaissance. The numbers that the guy uses in his report on your link are a bit odd (Rome wouldn't be as dense as downtown Hong Kong due to architectural limitations e.g. no skyscrapers . . . apartments were two to three stories in height). It also may depend upon where the city ends and the countryside begins according to the reports.
Anyway, that doesn't matter.
I'm just arguing that the size of the Praetorian Guard ought to be comparable to the rest of the Imperial Legion. In that case, I believe it should be about the size of one large legion garrison. There would just be other regular garrisons posted outside of the city as a buffer to the elite guard.

[Xerox]

roman legion (might make minor mistakes so I appologise up front)

1 legion = 10 senturies (this number varied WIDLY, there were legions made up of 12 to 14 centuries)

1 century = 80! men. Only "command" century had 100

Roman army at its hight was rougly 650,000 men strong. (around 100AD)

Roman Empire had never lacked solders, EVER, infact the share number of them was a stability problem, so thats why roman empire granted solders land in barbarin provinces. They did that to both romanise those parts and at the same time get rid of problimatic solder revolts. Also these ex-solders wouldn't need as much protection as colonists from say England to New World in 1600s did. They were frigin solders!

[Neoptolemus]

How about doing a reskin of this for the helm: [url]http://www.cuneo.us/tesmw/images/Neoptolemus/st._nerevar_s_helm.jpg[/url] It's from the St. Nerevar's Armour set by Enlightened_Daedroth and Soulshade, but I've always thought it looked more Imperial than Dunmer.

[Yinnie]

Thank you Neoptolemus

Will certainly consider your suggestion Or at least move on from there.....

oh you have no idea what a life saver you are... thank you thank you..... i could hug you...

Greetings,
Yinnie.

[Assassinace]

However unlike rome there are at least 15 knightly orders in and around Cyrodiil so I don't think rome and the game have much in common logisticly.

[Neoptolemus]

You're welcome. I've always wanted to see it reskinned in the Imperial style. Tried myself a couple of times, but my photoshop skills are... well, I don't have any.

[Haplo]

ughhhhh... I hate having to get into roman stuff...it's so awesome...but it's so easy for others to misunderstand and mess up, so here's the facts(oh, and P.S., the roman empire fell at around 420 A.D., so it wasn't around at 1500):

TWO-LEGION CONSULAR ARMY:::::

first come the auxilary velites, in a long line three men thick.

like this:

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||(cept a lot longer line )

then the allied Cavalry(im going to have to do something in MS paint for this...)

then next to them, allied cohorts, next to them, legion 1, then legion 2, then allied cohorts, then roman cavalry:

( | is cavalry, \ is cohorts, and + is legion 1 and two. PS the velites were centered)

|||||\\\\\+++++ +++++/////|||||


then come the roman velites, a long line of roman infantry, centered but slightly to the left, with spaced blocks of Hastati behind them:

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

# # # # # # # # # # # # #

then came the princeps, with the Triarii behind them:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

: : : : : : : : : : : : :


then finally, came 1600 velites(two groups of 800, centered on the roman velites behind the cohorts and cavalry)


....... .......
....... .......
....... .......
....... .......


so, after that, it's 10 maniples of Hastati, and each maniple has 140 men, so that's 1400 men there.

After that, there are several officers:

(first group of 5 maniples)Elected Centurion - Optio - Signifer - Cornicen - Tesserarius ---(then comes the second group of 5 maniples for a total of ten)---

Nominated Centurion - Optio - Signifer - Cornicen - Tesserarius -----


so, then come 10 maniples of principes, and each maniple has...you guessed it! 140 men!!! So that's another 1400 men.

then(down the chain!) 10 more officers, same grouping, same spot, except behind principes.

finally, the rear-guard, consisting of elite Triarii: 10 maniples of Triarii, with 60 men to each triarii. thats 600 men.

so, let's do a quick recap ( I know, I sound like a professor, and you're like, I hate you...but hey, life sucks, so get over it!):::::

1600 Velites:
1400 Hastati
1400 Principes
600 Triarii

5000 men...that's just one legion, there are two legions...

that's 10000 men

plus Allied and Roman Cavalry = 10000
Allied Cohorts = 10000

that's 30000 men, plus 40000 velites...

that's 70000 men in one army...I'll post an attachment soon

[Haplo]

heres the attachment, since it didnt seem to work on the other post

[sirwootalot123]

sorry if i'm "reviving a dead topic", but as im responsible for building this said garrison i would like some help with things like banners to use or whether the faction will be joinable in the morrowind province.

[Garinator]

this sounds cool is there any further development with it?