Necrom

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:22 am

The City above Necrom

[Lore Note: It would be cool if it were suggested through dialog, but never stated outright, that Necrom is the name of the burial site, not the city above it. Just statements thrown into dialog "in the city above Necrom." To anyone who thinks this confuses the player: (a) go die you pedantic douchey cunt; (b) anyone taht stupid is going to see the hyperlink "Necrom," they don't take the time to read the dialog]

Swiftoak has crafted a marvelous city; do its interiors match it in its marvel? I don't know, I had nothing to do with them, but it really doesn't sound like it at all.

The city that Swiftoak created has two levels. The lower level should be a sort of mortuary works in their entirety, is that the case or are they just part of the city? They need to be entirely devoted to the ritual preparation and burial of the dead.

The upper level has sections which I've seen identified as a "manor district." Necrom is a devotional city, it does not have a "manor district." It shouldn't even have manors, but I'll allow a small handful of manors belong to rich Temple members because I know how many are there. But things like the "Ra'athim [sic] Manor" that Hemitheon is apparently in love with just can't be justified as appearing in Necrom.

The upper level should be majorly religious institutions. This thread can be a brainstorm for specifics in that matter.

The Ancestors' Fane

[Lore Note: There are 3 Holy of Holies in Morrowind and together they form the basic pilgrimage for the religious: the Twin Fane, in Vivec the Fane of the City, in Mournhold, and the Ancestors' Fane, in Necrom.]

This beautiful temple by Swiftoak needs to be interiored. We need to discuss whether unique models are needed (TF contended that they are not, but I doubt him strongly), and also the specific status of its wings and what exactly is inside it. This is an important site and needs to live up to how people may imagine it.

The Catacombs of Necrom

[Lore Note: This should be called, in-game, "Catacombs of Necrom," not "Necrom, Catacombs." It should be treated as a distinct entity, not a building in Necrom.]

This seriously needs to be made. It seems like every few months someone wants to have a conversation about what it contains, but I don't think there's any real disagreement. It should be a huge-ass ancestor's tomb. Some people want this and that special burials with in it, but most of them are pretty stupid, like people who want "the kings of Morrowind" to have their own tomb.

I think at the lowest level it should be caves with mummies like the ashlanders. I know that the oldest burials are supposed to be on the top, but fuck that we're telling a story here. The real question, anyway, is how to make it.

It's probably too big to give to one person. Even TF, who is, to quote Rachel Getting Married, one of the "only people on the planet less capable of delegating than Hannibal," has given up small parts of OE Castle to other people. And unlike OE Castle, this is something we want done soon. It's going to have to be a project, not a claim. And so that, as well as eveything else above, is where all of you come on. How are we gonna organize this project in the specific?

Discuss. All of it please. By the way, thankyou to Cathartis, whose question about the catacombs reminded me that I needed to make this thread.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:42 am

The city that Swiftoak created has two levels. The lower level should be a sort of mortuary works in their entirety, is that the case or are they just part of the city? They need to be entirely devoted to the ritual preparation and burial of the dead.

Oh dear, I can't see this going down well. I think you're right, but doesn't a large city consisting mainly of mortuaries run the risk of becoming a bit tedious and repetitive? Especially when the religious element of the process would be largely contained within the temple.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:57 am

gro-Dhal wrote:Oh dear, I can't see this going down well.

The only issue I see is the potential need to redo a bunch of ints, and also the (in any case inevitable) workload of creating a worthwhile Temple int.

Personally, this all sounds great and is exactly what I meant when I said I didn't like Necrom at present.

(P.S. the only other thing I don't like about Necrom is that it has way too many fires outside. Should those be toned down a notch?)

aro101 · Post by **aro101** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:18 pm

Kay, If you want me back, this is a good place for me to start for. I loved to work on those meshes and I'd be very happy to make some addons or changes. Do we need any new models or recreations for Necrom?

If yes, please describe it.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:45 pm

gro-Dhal wrote:
The city that Swiftoak created has two levels. The lower level should be a sort of mortuary works in their entirety, is that the case or are they just part of the city? They need to be entirely devoted to the ritual preparation and burial of the dead.
Oh dear, I can't see this going down well. I think you're right, but doesn't a large city consisting mainly of mortuaries run the risk of becoming a bit tedious and repetitive? Especially when the religious element of the process would be largely contained within the temple.

you should, perhaps, [url=http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4408/necsex.jpg]re-examine an image of the city[/url] to assist you in interpreting my original post.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:37 pm

Ok fine.

RE: the Manor District. Necrom may not need a large number of manors, save as you say for a few higher-ranking clergy. What it does need is lodging for the transient population of mourners, which I imagine would be fairly significant. Necrom is the closest thing to a tourist hotspot for the Dunmer, and should have more hostels and inns than an average city. Possibly also a manor should be maintained by each house (perhaps excluding the Telvanni and Dres, depending on their funerary attitudes), so that high-ranking house members will always have suitable surroundings in which to lodge and perhaps conduct business- large political funerals being a good occasion for important people to come together from all over the province or even the Empire.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:23 pm

Aren't you a little too late with this thread?
The only thing we could discuss about is about some claims concerning the catacombs and the temple. Unless someone wants to revoke some necrom ints.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:50 pm

I like the idea of manors specifically for the lodging of high ranking members of each house specifically, and adding accommodations for mourners elsewhere. These would be fairly easy to make from existing manors.

As for it being too late, it is never too late to do things right.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:56 pm

fuck if im posting about it before its released im actually early

What it does need is lodging for the transient population of mourners, which I imagine would be fairly significant.

yes

Possibly also a manor should be maintained by each house (perhaps excluding the Telvanni and Dres, depending on their funerary attitudes)...

Something like this exists now right? I'm not sure about them but I could be convinced. Someone tell me about it.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:01 pm

Well, as it stands there are manors for a representative noble family of each house in necrom. Under the new plan these manors would be converted into vacant lodgings filled only when a number of members of that house are in town for mourning purposes. Think of it as a specialized inn.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:14 pm

that would be okay i guess

one or a couple monastic societies devoted to the ancestors.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:22 pm

I guess some int modders won't like if the some ints were to be revoked.

@ Core: Maybe you could consider of inviting Swiftoak WW to join this discussion aout necrom.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:50 pm

swiftoak was supposed to be included in the whole thing originally but it looks like someone overlooked him

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:48 pm

Does it really matter? Npcs have yet to be placed, so when we get to that point just leave the manors vacant except for a couple of caretakers whose job it is to keep the manors up when their masters aren't around. It might involve modifications of some interiors, but what of it?

A few manors could be converted to other purposes, but all in all I don't see it being that big of a job.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:05 pm

I am forever baffled by the myriad ways that statements can be misinterpreted by members of this project.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:09 pm

The Fane itself ought to be the hub of the process by which the souls of the deceased are channeled into the Ghostfence. Perhaps some big gadget of Soth Sil is involved, supported by a permanent corps of the devout who maintain it, dress it with flowers etc.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:56 pm

I figured it was just going to be a pretty church.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:37 pm

You also can't parse the difference between having manors without NPCs living in them and not having manors, perhaps it would be better to sit this one out.

I'm in favor gro-dhal, though I'm not so sure about the Sotha Sil machine. I think its nice to involve him, so I lean toward it.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:31 am

I know.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:13 am

Fane-as-techno-gadget I don't like. I like the idea that it's where the Ghostfence rituals are somehow initiated or whatever, but having some kind of 'steampunk machine' in there would be tacky and uncool. It just wouldn't fit, or provide the right atmosphere.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:06 am

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:'steampunk machine'

I agree, which is why whatever Sotha Sil provides shouldn't be a steampunk techno statomatic machinamo blah blah bullshit. Somehow, I knew you'd interpret gro-Dhal's post that way and make the post you made.

That's the superficial, immediate idea of a "Sotha Sil gadget," which is why the "Sotha Sil gadget" that will exist must be something else. Sotha Sil invented more than just fabricants, the bonds the player breaks on the Heart of Lorkhan were made by Sotha Sil, and they weren't even visible. He is called the Magus, not the Machinist.

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:43 pm

Sload wrote:swiftoak was supposed to be included in the whole thing originally but it looks like someone overlooked him

Swiftoak was invited and has been a member of the group since its inception. I guess he just didn't feel like posting. Maybe he will now that there's a Necrom thread. Then again he is very busy IRL so that may not happen any time soon.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:44 pm

no he wasn't, I just added him a few days ago and PMed him the ropes. The busy thing holds true though.

Oops... he has an invite from me in my outbox from a while ago. Apparently I just forgot to add him to the group - Haplo

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:39 pm

I was thinking less of a Dwemer-style cogs-and-gears contraption and more of a divine relic with moving parts. Something that was crafted by a transcendent genius. It should look bizarre and disconcerting and stand apart from its surroundings, like a lot of the more memorable visuals in the vanilla game do.

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:43 pm

gro-Dhal wrote:I was thinking less of a Dwemer-style cogs-and-gears contraption and more of a divine relic with moving parts. Something that was crafted by a transcendent genius. It should look bizarre and disconcerting and stand apart from its surroundings, like a lot of the more memorable visuals in the vanilla game do.

In other words, fit in with the alien atmosphere. While I agree with TF that it is certainly possible (and probably easy for someone like Hemitheon, agram, blackbird, Nomadic1, cire992... the list gets longer every month, it seems), I would prefer a unique model, since Aro has ostensibly volunteered his services for such a task.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:39 pm

'soul machine' of any kind = pants

It's just way too Warhammer 40K.

(To be clear, I'm not 'misinterpreting' gro-Dhal here. Everyone is talking about a 'steampunk soul machine' now. With the exception of Sload)

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:37 pm

No I'm pretty sure I understand gro-Dhal correctly. When he says less of a Dwemer-style cogs-and-gears contraption and more of a divine relic with moving parts I take it that he means less of a Dwemer-style cogs-and-gears contraption and more of a divine relic with moving parts. I could be wrong.

We need a concept; Myzel do you read this thread?

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:21 pm

I see little difference between 'machine with Dwemer gears' and 'machine with moving parts that are definitely not Dwemer'.

Both would be steampunk 'soul machiney', cogs or otherwise, and the idea of a 'soul machine' as I have said I don't like or think is a good one.

You yourself said that "whatever Sotha Sil provides shouldn't be a steampunk techno statomatic machinamo blah blah bullshit." So yeah, I'm with that guy.

Obviously if a concept could be made that wasn't a tacky 'soul machine' then yeah why not. But I think you'd be hard pressed to make something that would work as a 'static piece' in game, convey some kind of purpose and yet not be a glorified 'soul machine', which as I've made pretty clear, I feel would be 'steampunk and uncool' (obvs if you think that Necrom ought to have steampunk in it, then more power to you). Myze can feel free to prove me wrong.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:00 am

Perhaps you should examine the subtle differences between the words you put between apostrophes and the words gro-dhal said.

Your ability to fixate on the worst possible interpretation of the idea fascinates me. Its been made clear that we aren't looking for a steampunk soul machine, but you continue to rail against an idea that everyone agrees is bad.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:21 am

what if it was some glowing blue thing that vaguely resembles a vagina and ovaries.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:58 am

Are there any sources that describe how the Dunmer extract the souls of the dead for use in the Ghostfence, and how they're transmitted to the Ghostfence from Necrom? That might bring us one step closer to deciding what a huge, important structure like this would be like inside.

Besides that, with regards to this soul apparatus would having such a device actually be large enough to run through several floors be a good idea? The part in the central atrium of the temple could be just there for show and not serve any useful purpose, just be an ascending pillar of blue Ghostfence energy (perhaps some floating slowly rotating "focus" artifacts surrounding it) as a pretty centrepiece for ordinary people to perhaps leave offerings or hold services for the dead at. The actual machinery used to get the souls into this stream would be hidden away from the public on lower floors.

I'm basing this idea on a crematorium I visited back in December when my great grandmother died. We went backstage because we arrived late (wrong information on the invite) to see the coffin, and the bit the public wasn't meant to see was very different to the well furnished faÃƒÂ§ade seen in the service beforehand.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:45 am

I dunno, I pictured the device as tabletop sized.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:18 am

Dwemer-style cogs-and-gears contraption = 'machine with Dwemer gears'
Divine relic with moving parts = 'machine with moving parts that are definitely not Dwemer'

How is that an unfair or unrealistic interpretation? The only difference is that grodders called his a 'divine relic', wheras I simplified that to what it means in practise as an 'animated static sitting in a room in-game': 'machine'.

That aside, I'm not fixating on the worst idea possible, I'm looking at what everyone's discussing and agreeing with you that that's a bad thing. If people had, after our altercations, stopped talking about a steampunk soul machine, then obviously I'd have shut up because everyone would have understood what you and I were talking about. But they haven't:

glowing blue thing
huge, important structure (or indeed a tabletop sized one)
extract the souls of the dead for use
transmitted to the Ghostfence
machinery used to get the souls into this stream

Even if in your own imagination, you can imagine something that isn't a steampunk soul machine straight out of Warhammer 40K, that's what's being discussed. Even if we call that a 'divine relic' or something else, it's still a steampunk soul machine. Sorry man.

I completely agree that we aren't looking for a steampunk soul machine, but it's what we seem to be finding anyway.

In terms of doing something perhaps actually useful rather than just sitting here getting into pointless arguments as-per-u*, I'd have thought that something like Cathartis described, but rather than 'a machine' ('cos I'm sorry, that's what it is) set in a room, the 'relic' (more along the lines I take it you're imagining) is in fact the room itself, with a suitably unique looking construction as to make it clear this is 'no ordinary room' whilst still staying recognisable Velothi, with perhaps some interesting arches and a large ashpit centrally. Perhaps even some moving elements around the walls or on the arches. All very arcane and numinous, but without the whole 'stream of souls' gothic techno-nonsense.

*and frankly I don't even get what we're arguing about - I mean we are in complete agreement. And I am wasting far too much text in defending myself against you attacking me for being on the same wavelength as you. This is frankly lunacy.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:02 am

You've finally caught up to the rest of us (except it seems TF) in your last paragraph, which I think describes the leaping point of any any attempt to imagine this device, but for whatever reason you need to justify yourself with mountains of indignant words. Now that you have the basics down, perhaps you could throw out ideas as others have done. Otherwise, sit it out.

Adanorcil says that a triangular set up is important, and I agree with him. He suggests that each tribunal could have donated a bone to its design; if they did, I say that it was necessarily a rib.

Ash is good, soul is good, the appearance - slight appearance - of a womb is good. These are fairly immediate ideas, but they're good ones. From the ancestors' deaths comes life.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:37 pm

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:what if it was some glowing blue thing that vaguely resembles a vagina and ovaries.

You mean like this:
[img]http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9403/nakedvaginabiker.jpg[/img]

I already made one of those on map 5 mang, but it's not glowing blue.

@BC, its cuz you said machine bro

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:53 pm

no, you made a giant rock clitoris and labia etc., I mean something resembling an anatomical model of the actual organs.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:12 pm

Then just make the layout of the catacombs in the shape of a uterus or something.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:23 pm

just going to butt in here for a second:

sload said "slight" appearance of a uterus. uterus =/= external female genitalia. the uterus has all sorts of nice symbolic meanings, while having a giant glowing vulva is just vulgar.

what i would do is have the whole room be a tall, vaguely triangular (with rounded sides) enclosure whose walls angle towards the top, fast and first and then slower towards the top, so that it basically forms like a pyramid type thing. the top can be left open so that light comes through. the room itself then becomes the womb imagery, and you are housed within it (a child of the tribunal, protected in life and in death).

make of that what you will. sorry if its totally off track.

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:28 pm

Well, I can try designing this. Definitely not clockwork, but mysticism. Something eerie. Maybe soul gems could be involved somehow.

But before I do that it might be useful to discuss lore first. Specifically how the energy is transferred to the Ghostfence and why from Necrom. I think all that has been established in the books of Morrowind is that the fence is sustained mostly by the power of the tribunal itself, and that the remains of ancestors are inside the pillars of the fence.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:43 pm

it just does. lore can be changed slightly to afford cool things.