Morrowind Creatures

Place where art is developed for our game.

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Enzo
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Post by Enzo »

Sload wrote:The word that lost the argument:
Enzo wrote:realism
TR's established goal for TES3 is to recreate the province of Morrowind as Bethesda would have done it, if I am not mistaken. Bethesda has always incorporated or implied a heavy level of detail when it comes to lore: everything tends to behave in a way that makes it's own kind of sense, a sort of "realism" built into everything even though the subject matter is fantasy.

Take the Dwemer for instance, my good man. Bethesda crafted their imprint on Morrowind very particularly, did they not? Consider the placement of ruins across Vvardenfell. Consider Vvardenfell for what it is as I asked you to in my previous post: a post-volcanic island. A place where energy in the form of gases rising from the crusts of nirn is still to the 3rd era being harnessed by what the deep elves left behind. The machines do not just "still work" for seemingly no reason: every ruin in the vanilla game has pipes all throughout where you can imagine volcanic gas is being routed to places. That is a kind of "realism".

A second example, Sload. Nirn in all of it's incarnations from TES1 to 4 have followed from at first vaguely (as was the nature of the DOS based games) to quite vividly a 'realistic' vegetation distribution. In Tamriel, the farther north you go, the colder it gets - just like the northern hemisphere of Earth. You start to see coniferous trees overtake their cousins. When you go south? I think you already know. In Vvardenfell, the Bitter Coast seems fairly untouched by the violent past about the rest of the island (you'll also notice there is only ONE Dwemer Ruin - Aleft. We can assume based on the vague realism in the elder-scrolls that is because there is less/no energy to harness from the BC). The Bitter Coast is also swampy, wet, very consistent with what you would expect in a more southern-most region on a large island in the northern hemisphere - a sort of realism, you might say, eh Sload? Let's not forget that in Cyrodil, we see the same sort of thing: very cold to the north, very wet and damp to the south. This is actually true of all of Tamriel, with Elsewyr very realistically dry, being on a large plateau between a forest and a swamp.

More realism in the Elder Scrolls? Not only have the games always striven for photo-realism (as apposed to stylistically cartoony games like Fable or Zelda), but we could go down an endless list, from the placement of the Grazelands: where it is and why to the vast documentation describing how man and mer came to be spread out the way they are across the continent.

If ANYONE was trying to make a gigantic mod that was on par or surpassed Bethesda's work, I would surely hope would take realism into consideration, because Bethesda certainly did. Morrowind's psuedo-realism is what makes it such a gritty and fantastic game. It is what makes it so immersive and complete. <3
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Post by Peterboy »

Enzo wrote:TR's established goal for TES3 is to recreate the province of Morrowind as Bethesda would have done it
That would be horrible....
Enzo wrote: Morrowind's psuedo-realism
is what makes it illogical to have ANYTHING from Cyrodiil's fauna. Especially from Oblivion's fauna

EDIT: [url=http://www.uesp.net/image.shtml?morrow/preview/morrow1a.gif]Read this[/url]
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Post by Haplo »

Enzo wrote:
Sload wrote:The word that lost the argument:
Enzo wrote:realism
TR's established goal for TES3 is to recreate the province of Morrowind as Bethesda would have done it, if I am not mistaken.
You are; our main page states:

"Our goal is to recreate Tamriel in a way truthful to the vision of Bethesda Softworks through the study of TES lore."

"Truthful to the vision" and "as Bethesda would have done it" are very different things. Bethesda was unable to create the game to their own vision, we're just doing them a favor by making the mainland closer to their vision than they were able to make Vvardenfell.

As for the rest of your post... the Dwemer all disappearing at once from Nirn was based on realism too, right?
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Post by Enzo »

Haplo wrote:
Enzo wrote:
Sload wrote:The word that lost the argument:
TR's established goal for TES3 is to recreate the province of Morrowind as Bethesda would have done it, if I am not mistaken.
You are
My sincere apologies. I was worried I might be. I guess if you guys were doing it "as bethesda might have", you'd leave a bunch of bugs in the quests etc etc.
Haplo wrote:We're just doing them a favor by making the mainland closer to their vision than they were able to make Vvardenfell.
It seems to me that Bethesda at least envisioned a world that made "sense" the way I described. Even if we pretend Oblivion never came out and throw all of that canon down a well... why would the types of creatures across such a gigantic land-mass be uniform like that? Morrowind covers a lot of area and if we are going off of lore, it would at least be varied enough that seeing the same bug-type critters roaming around everywhere would be... jarring. At least that's how I see it. We see different types of wild-life throughout Vvardenfell (on a much less noticeable scale, 'course), so why not throughout the province?
Haplo wrote:As for the rest of your post... the Dwemer all disappearing at once from Nirn was based on realism too, right?
Is "realism" a bad word? I meant that everything is at least mostly consistent and makes sense like any good work of high fantasy ought to.

I hope I'm not coming off as a jerk, guys. I simply just don't understand why mammals are out of the question, here. I've been lurking here since forever and I've always had enormous amounts of respect for all of the TR Modders. I trust that whatever decision ends up being made will be for the best, I just wanted to put the thought out there.

EDIT:
Peterboy wrote:
Enzo wrote: Morrowind's psuedo-realism
is what makes it illogical to have ANYTHING from Cyrodiil's fauna. Especially from Oblivion's fauna

EDIT:[url=http://www.uesp.net/image.shtml?morrow/preview/morrow1a.gif]Read this[/url]
I don't really expect anything from Cyrodil's fauana to seep into the province, mostly because of those ridiculously high mountains. As far as I know, though, there is no such barrier with Black Marsh. Is there a wall that I don't know about but really ought to? Something like that? That was a very informative read, sort of surprised I'd never seen it before.
Last edited by Enzo on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

one thing I want to say before I go to bed. We are talking about a world that is simultaneously flat, round, and a dragon. Sense is not necessarily a factor.
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Post by Haplo »

We threw Oblivion down the well three years ago, don't worry.
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Post by Myzel »

I can't actually peek into Sload's head, but I think his aversion towards 'realism' is actually an aversion to the fact that this argument of realism seems to influence discussions all over the forums. I think he is right to point out that these arguments really don't carry any weight at all.

What's important for game design is style, atmosphere, immersion. Realism alone is no reason at all to include something. It is only important insofar it sustains a player's suspension of disbelief. The steam constructs in dwemer ruins don't work because they are in volcanic lands, they work because it fits the atmosphere the devs were going for. Vegetation distribution is not the way it is because it's realistic, but because this way it fits the atmosphere of the different regions. I think you catch my drift.

I think everything that has to be said about this has now been said, so let's move on. All this aside, imo mammals are not out of the question for Morrowind, as long as their appearance fits the place stylistically.
Last edited by Myzel on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sload »

myzel's post expresses my views
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Post by blackbird »

What about logic? how much logic is there in a fantasy world?
It wouldn't be logic if some kagouti are living on the top of a steep mountain which can only accessed by levitating.
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Post by Adanorcil »

blackbird wrote:What about logic? how much logic is there in a fantasy world?
It wouldn't be logic if some kagouti are living on the top of a steep mountain which can only accessed by levitating.
Much as I try, I really don't understand your example and either way you cannot compare serious design decisions to minutiae like this. Let us actually discuss designs.
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Post by Worsas »

Forgive me, I'm a crazy person...

[url=http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli2.jpg][img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli2-1.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli.jpg][img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli-1.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli3.jpg][img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/trolli3-1.jpg[/img][/url] :lol: :mrgreen:
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Wow, very pretty.

I'd say the head needs to be made more 'seperate' from the body, at present it looks a bit 'neckless'. The head should also be wider at the top (for ears), perhaps even a little 'wolflike' in shape (though obviously still a tapir). The mouth should also obviously be shut by default.

Also the model looks possibly too good for your average Morrowind creature, which is normally a bit more angular. :P


But yeah, very very nice. :) I look forwards to seeing it progress!
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Post by Worsas »

Hi Bloodthirsty Crustacean

It's easy to decrease detailment. So it wont be a problem to make this creature look properly for Morrowind. The neck will be lengthened too. But all in all I'm staying very close to the concept drawing.

I know that this actually isn't priority for TR. But I have had an idea of how to do this model for some time now. I must. Also this is part of learning how to use bones and how to do weight-painting both of which are a new areas for me.

Moreover I consider modeling Myzels concept too when having finished this one. For the velk and the tiger guar there aren't concept drawings yet, unfortunately. But I can imagine making those too, if you appreciate that.

Yes, it's a bit out of order, since Haplo rather wants the Dres-Tileset to be done. But if we can have both...
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

I'm glad you made that post 'cos otherwise I might've been in trouble. ;)

Anyway, on a spur of the moment 'feel free to ignore' note, re: Tigerguar a quick mental-whiz threw up a constitution of Moloch, Gila Monster and Guar. Looking a bit less 'amiable' and more athletic than your average guar, adapted for Western mountain life.
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Post by Worsas »

This is how the tapir looks in the moment. Right now I've used the concept drawing as texture. The UV-Mapping is by no means finished.

[img]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/Worsas/tapir.jpg[/img]

I didn't do really much today.
For your information: I've started the whole thing yesterday evening. Today I've only worked another two hours on it. This is only to show how fast modeling can go if you have an idea about how you want to do it.
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Post by Katze »

The colour of the skin is perhaps a bit bright. I'd say a more ideal colour scheme would be similar to that of the Vortigaunts from Half Life 2: Episode 2, like so: http://img139.imageshack.us/i/newvortigauntht4.jpg/

Also, the back legs look a little strange. Perhaps the knees should be brought forwards a little and the shins lengthened?
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Post by Worsas »

Of course the color of the concept drawing is much too light.
That vortigaunt-color is an idea...hmm.. I'll look what I can do for the texture. I'm sadly not the best 2D-Artist. I can make textures, but I'm not particularly good at it.

How about if we already started searching for a suitable name?

And animations. Which kind of animations might appeal?

Suggestions are very welcome. Even if this creature won't become part of TR, it can become part of a TR-related mod, at least.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Regarding textures, a fine (tapir-esque) dark (brown or even 'browny mucky green' - think sloths) fur with a suitably coloured fleshy torso/underbelly would suit well, I think.

Regarding animations, it's hard to describe. Just do 'what seems logical' for a creature of these proportions. Cazza is right that the hind lower-legs need muscling up and a small length increase (the upper leg could be shortened to accomodate).

Walking should definitely be on all fours, with motion driven by the upper body and shoulder muscles (but no silly 'swinging' back legs forward deal - all limbs should be used like any real world four-limbed creature - big cats/bears would be a good model).

Running, Oblivion's trolls would be a good inspiration.

Attacks, all with arms, perhaps a little headbutting, or if you're really feeling skilled, shoulder-ramming, but no kicking.

If it gets made to the expected quality, I'm sure this can find a happy home in TR. :)
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Post by Worsas »

The hind-legs have been changed in the way it has been suggested. the upper legs are shorter now and the lower legs longer.

I'm not sure about this creature having fur. I would prefer it being naked. But I'll consider your suggestion.

Otherwise I agree.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

It's up to you: if you make a great looking texture, I'm not gonna complain either way! :)

I was thinking a very fine fur (of the kind tapirs have), though, not some big 'shaggy coat' style.
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Post by Worsas »

Nothing particularly important, what I will say now. Though a few things I wanted to say since it will take some time until I'll have finished the texture and the mapping.

The hind-legs really no longer look as weird as in the screens above. I just noticed what strange curves there still were. Nothing left of that weirdness.

The neck will receive some lizard-features, while the head will still resemble a tapir-head. The back will be bown a bit more and, probably, the creature won't have fur, but the animations will be similar to how BC has described them as this is how I imagine them too for the most part. The Color will be a lot darker, less saturated and a bit greenish compared to the concept drawings.

This is how it is going be done now. As said it will take a bit and it is well possible, that I won't write much unless I have made some real progress.


I'll take orientation on Cire who hinted me to the fact that detailment is subject to texturing while the mesh is mainly there to build the overall-proportions. Now I'll spend some love on the texture.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Sounds all good. In principle I don't like green; in practise, if you make it awesome, I'm cool with that.

The main thing is that I'd want this to remain quite 'tapir based', and tapirs are obviously mammals, and 'green and lizard elements' doesn't necessarily say 'mammal' to me. :P
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Post by Myzel »

Thought I'd share this thing I drew the other day.
In colour!

[url=http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/morrowindcreaturecolor2.jpg][img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/morrowindcreaturecolor2.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9381/morrowindcreaturecolor.jpg][img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9381/morrowindcreaturecolor.th.jpg[/img][/url]
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Ha, I love the brown version. Very Princess Mononoke somehow, very nice. :)
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Post by Katze »

Niice, it has that unidentifiable look about it that makes it very Morrowind, good work, Myzel! Is this the long-legged velk that I think I've heard of? It looks somewhat like an insectoid horse, perhaps it would be used by the Dres as a beast of burden? Alternatively, at a smaller scale it could be used like a hunting dog (the front leg being up like that made me think of that) a creature trained to hunt down and kill or immobilise escaped slaves would be quite interesting.

The blue version would probably fit in quite well in Dres lands, although having two versions, like the Netches could be quite interesting :D
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Post by Adanorcil »

Myzel wrote:Thought I'd share this thing I drew the other day.
In colour!

[url=http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/morrowindcreaturecolor2.jpg][img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/morrowindcreaturecolor2.th.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9381/morrowindcreaturecolor.jpg][img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9381/morrowindcreaturecolor.th.jpg[/img][/url]
I'd say cut the mandibles (they are too reminiscent of the silt striders) and make the legs longer and more like those of an antilope. I think it could work as a velk then.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Personally I like the mandibles for the touch of weird. And the legs strike me as nicely similar to the nix hound. But that's my view.
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Post by Katze »

The head and mandibles actually reminded me more of the antlions for Half Life 2, personally.

They look like they'd make a fine weapon for the creature to use in its attack, so it all really depends on if you want the creature to be predatory or now.
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Post by Myzel »

Thanks for the feedback folks.
Cathartis wrote:Alternatively, at a smaller scale it could be used like a hunting dog (the front leg being up like that made me think of that) a creature trained to hunt down and kill or immobilise escaped slaves would be quite interesting.
I would say that if the Dres would use beasts to hunt down slaves, those beasts would have a dangerous, scary, 'don't you dare to escape' kind of look rather than a 'aww that's so pretty, I want one' look. :P
I'd say cut the mandibles (they are too reminiscent of the silt striders) and make the legs longer and more like those of an antilope. I think it could work as a velk then.
That is possible. I don't see why it can't be reminiscent of a silt strider though.
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Post by Katze »

Myzel wrote:I would say that if the Dres would use beasts to hunt down slaves, those beasts would have a dangerous, scary, 'don't you dare to escape' kind of look rather than a 'aww that's so pretty, I want one' look. :P
Maybe I'm skewed in my viewpoint because I consider most large attack dogs to be cute, when some people are terrified of them? (I own a German shepherd dog)
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Post by Nalin »

Velk's have more of a pointed head. They're skinner than that too.
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Post by Adanorcil »

By the way, I would certainly say we could use a non-hostile creature for a change. Guar and scribs were there because they were elementary domesticated animals to the Dunmer.
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Post by Myzel »

Nalin wrote:Velk's have more of a pointed head. They're skinner than that too.
You say that as though you've actually seen one. If artwork of a Velk exists I think it'd be nice to see it in this thread.
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Post by Sload »

I think it needs some sort of mandibles, but maybe just not those ones. I love the idea of a furry arthropod, though, I can't believe we didn't see it in the original game.

I want to reiterate also that "nixmount" creatures would be valuable for Dres.
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Post by Mantriel »

I am no TR modder. I just want to point out that they look fantastic and look like some creatures from the original MW.

I agree with Sload about the mandibles, they look very much like a silt strider.

As a last (4) word(s): they look really cool.
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Post by zacmanthedamned »

Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:Bonelords look proper, though. A few of them could be hanging around.
Just saw this in the Necrom thread and it ispired me to create this guy

[img]http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv45/zacman_2009/BONEOVERLORD.jpg[/img]

Don't think it'll ever get used, though (plus I like the Ordinators-in-mourning)
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Post by Sload »

We've decided we don't want new bonelords for Necrom. Nice effort though.

More bout the velk, which is now a velk, which I've learned is in fact "the long-legged velk" which thrives because of the ashfall, according to Travis Ulchovik of the IFFS:

Its legs should be more splayed, like a bug's legs would be, and I'm imagining its bush as fuller, instead of coalescing around the calves, filling out the entire underside of the beast, thick and knotted like a yak or goat. I want it as Deshaan Deer, like Adanorcil said, passive like the deer of Oblivion.

For the last release TR will be pulling out all the stops, with unique flora, fauna, architecture. I'm putting "long-legged velk" on the list of essentials, which is now:

Tigerguar (retex)
Nixmount
Long-legged velk
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Lighter Than Some
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Post by Lighter Than Some »

[url=http://img130.imageshack.us/i/nixhoundmountcopy.png/][img]http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5685/nixhoundmountcopy.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://img138.imageshack.us/i/nixhoundmountcopy2.png/][img]http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3103/nixhoundmountcopy2.th.png[/img][/url]

Someone said they wanted a nix mount?

I like where this topic is headed by the way. Oh and hi. It's been a while :)
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Myzel
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Post by Myzel »

Looks very cool. It's the nixhound's bigger and actually dangerous brother.
Though I was thinking a 'nixmount' could be something that looks 'nix' but not necessarily 'hound'.

Edit:
in reaction to this:
Sload wrote: Its legs should be more splayed, like a bug's legs would be, and I'm imagining its bush as fuller, instead of coalescing around the calves, filling out the entire underside of the beast, thick and knotted like a yak or goat. I want it as Deshaan Deer, like Adanorcil said, passive like the deer of Oblivion.
Velk or no Velk, I think my critter looks better with it's straight legs than it would with wide splayed bug-legs. They could be made to look more like the silt strider's legs, but then others will say it looks too much like a silt strider. :P
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Post by Kiteflyer61 »

Love the Nixmount. Very cool concept. Makes a lot more sense than mountable Guars. :)
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