q2-24-Imp

[Hemitheon]

Here's some screens of my work so far. The one remaining major puzzle is dependent on the work Myzel is doing.

[RelinQ]

You may want to repost these files Hemi.

1. one of the files appears to be corrupt
2. most of the pictures are too dark to really see anything.

[Haplo]

It's fine for me, you should re-download and brighten your monitor. The corruption is from an incomplete download.

[MMMowSkwoz]

That looks epic. Any chance we could get an .esp? Have you implemented the puzzles already?

[RelinQ]

@ Haplo,

Hey you were right, I must have had a bad download , odd though

------------
Looking good though Hemi, looks fun! and maybe annoyingly difficult? I hope so

[Hemitheon]

Here's the file, instructions, and a map.

The scripting has not been done yet. I think BC said he and Momo would work on them.

I'll produce another file soon with pictures of where these cells link to the current cells. Chefidz: Mavfarovd links to Chefidz Basin, but underwater. Also, the esp cells don't have north markers.

The puzzles range from "go get x and place in y" to "remember the following sequence of 16 and repeat" to "activate the astrological sequence as demonstrated in Dwemeris"

[Hemitheon]

Map error - Chefidz: Ihlendamz links to Mavfarovd not Nurdhakh.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Look excellent. Thanks Hemi! Maybe when BC's back from holiday and I'm a little less busy some of us can have a chat on IRC about how best to implement these.

[Why]

Does anyone have a backup of Hemi's files? They've disappeared.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I think I've got 'em.

I don't know for sure if these are the latest versions uploaded.

[Shapeshiftr]

All throughout this thread I'm reading mentions of EEC. I got this idea, not a refined one or anything, but here it goes, and could contribute significantly to the sense of discovery: How about, like EEC, after each quest, a new part of Kemel-Ze is unlocked, through a series of Enable + Disable scripts? The reward for each quest would include a small monetary value, but it would mostly be the thrill of having a whole new, un-looted or excavated area to explore of this massive ruin. The idea behind this faction is a common interest in discovery and deeper learning; we don't need big rewards to make this worthwhile; opening up a new section should appeal more than enough to anyone truly interested in the guild. The quest line maybe could be more interesting than just learning, wait, let me rephrase that, definitely should be more interesting than that, but I think a good number of quests should be about learning more of the culture of Kemel-Ze. After all, what's up with a big-ass Dwemer ruin just sitting there? Could it have been the capital of the Dwemer empire in Morrowind? The trade city? An Oxford-institute of sorts, where new Dwemer innovations are engineered? I, personally, don't know much about the Dwemer, and I think that most average players don't, either, so the thrill of uncovering not only a city, but a culture, too, should be the backbone of this quest line.

[Why]

Uh, apart from having the monopoly on trade in Dwemer artifacts (iirc) I don't see what the EEC's interests with Kemel-Ze are... unless you mean the IAC, Imperial Archeology Society.

Before you start working on this I suggest you take a look at Hemi's file, which is awesome.

Also, the problem with Dwemer culture is that there is nearly zero lore about it, as far as I know. Bits and pieces about astronomy and the War of the First Council, but nothing about what a normal day in the life of a Dwemer would be.

As far as I know the sole purpose of the IAC questline will be to make exploration of KZ easier for the player. There's a load of puzzles that need to be solved to unlock every level of KZ (I even believe Hemi wasn't quite done with it yet, I'll ask him) and the quests are only there to point the player in the right direction.

[Shapeshiftr]

Oh, wow. Didn't see this second page. By EEC I meant have the IAC bear relation to the EEC.

So, reading everything on this page now, here's my response-

I think that maybe the quests for the IAC would be actually to open up new levels of Kemel-Ze. This would include solving the puzzles, and after opening a new level for the IAC, they would reward you a little bit, but mostly you'd be able to explore more of the giant ruin. I'm getting a strange feeling that that's all been said already...

As for the lack of lore, I guess that provides a pretty large wall for that idea. I guess if it's not too lore-breaking, we could put TR's take on Dwemer life. Most likely that is the definition of lore-breaking, though.

I'll get around to looking at Hemi's file later, though I wasn't totally planning on designing this quest-line, just wanted to add an idea.

[Yeti]

No lore on Dwemer culture? I really must disagree. There's a lot you can pick up on it from in-game books:

This book gives a pretty good look at day-to-day Dwemer culture [url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Chronicles_of_Nchuleft_(book)[/url]

This is one of Marabul Sul's Dwemer storys that's actually based on the real Dwemer[url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Chimarvamidium[/url]

Here's another one of Sul's more truthful Dwemer tales.[url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Azura_and_the_Box[/url]

This one is about Dwemer law[url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Antecedants_of_Dwemer_Law[/url]

[url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Ruins_of_Kemel-Ze[/url]

[url]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dwemer_History_and_Culture[/url]

Here's a TR book about Dwemer burial costums. [url]http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=books&section=154931[/url]

Even if some of these books aren't completely accurate, you can still use them (along with things you directly observe in the game, such as he Dwemer's love of building things) to piece together a picture of Dwemer culture.

In a nutshell, the Dwemer were;

1. Very achademic, and not afraid
2. Not very realigious
3. Apparently clan based
4. Great at building, creating, crafting, ect
5. A very pratical people
6. Lovers of facial hair

[Shapeshiftr]

Thanks, Yeti. While I'll have to disagree with the lack of religion part, I think this is good backup for my idea.

[Yeti]

For some reason I can't edit my post

Fixed typo:

1. The Dwemer were very achademic and not afraid to research things most other races would be uncomfortable with; such as a dead gods heart

Not sure why my first link doesn't work

[Yeti]

Responding to Shapeshiftr with a double post, due to my in-abliity to edit:

What I meant by them not being realigious, was that they didn't follow any clearly defined realigion that can be comparable to other Tamrielic realigions. I know they were trying to create their own god (or something like that) with Kragenac's tools, but, they didn't seem to care for the beings most other Tamrielic societys consider gods (See "Azura In a Box" for a specific example of this)

[Haplo]

There is no a in religion, nor any h in academic. Just so you know.

[Yeti]

Thank you Haplo, for pointing out my terrible/awful/horrible/very bad spelling

I will try to be more careful next time 8)

[The Greatness]

I'd quiet like to take these over. I'm not sure if Theo is still around (his last post was 9th March).

I think these quests would be quiet fun if we introduced some kind of interfeirence- possibly House Hlallu. The player would discover this in the first or second quest and they would generaly make a nuisance of themselves until the player clears them off late in the story line and in the final quest makes a big discovery (possibly something HH were trying to hide). I think this would make for an interesting questline, or at least it would sure beat a 'find this artifact, talk to x, get book, find more articfacts' sort of quest line.

[immortal_pigs]

Does anyone still have Hemitheon's KZ map?

[immortal_pigs]

[No Edit]

Nevermind, I remade it.
Blue represents the interiors created in Hemitheon's addon.

[Haplo]

You should now be able to edit your posts.

[Why]

I don't think House Hlaalu should be involved here - they practically live at the other side of the province and have no interest in this Dwemer ruin at all. Also remember that these are not Telvanni faction quests, they're open to anyone, so House interference should be limited (the local Telvanni make sense but anything beyond that is just too much). The quests should only exist to direct the player to go exploring the ruins, not a step-by-step walkthrough of the place.

[Haplo]

Yeah this is more IAS than any other faction. Like Why said, only the local Telvanni (from Tel Marog) are concerned with the tourism going on.

[immortal_pigs]

Kemel-Ze_Puzzles: Visual guide to Hemitheon's puzzles.
Puzzles_Explained: Hemitheon's word document in pdf format. (Maybe redundant, but not everyone has ms word )

Btw, I still can't edit.

[immortal_pigs]

Attachments
- Kemel-Ze_Legend: Map of Kemel-Ze with distinctions (safe/dangerous, undiscovered/looted).
- Kemel-Ze_Quests_Map: Guide to areas of Kemel-Ze featured per quest.

====
This proposed quest line has 7 quests, of which 3 are Hemitheon's puzzles. It has been designed in such a way that about 80% of Kemel-Ze's 51 interiors will be visited.


Ranks
Porter
Archaeologian
Academian
Praelector


Quest #0
The guild is full!

Asking to join in the IAS in Helnim will tell the player the guild is full, but will give a journal update directing towards Kemel-Ze.
(Look for "Renie Cierraise" in the Archaeologist Base)


Quest #1
Initiation.

Renie Cierraise will tell the player she will give you her recommendation if you can find a "key to the king's tomb". It is hinted that these keys are purposefully hidden as initiation right. She tells the player to look for a key in the area between Aster and the Archaeologist Base. (An area of 8 interiors).

Keys may be found in
- Karzanch
- Chuntench
- Runzchuk

Return with the key. Get recommendation. Go to Helnim to become a full member. Return to Kemel-Ze.

Rank Acquired: Porter

Quest #2
The King's Tomb

Renie wants the player to visit the King's Tomb to see how good the player's searching skills are; the player has to look for a "Dwemer Coherer" "Dwemer Cylinder" or "Dwemer Mug". (There's a Coherer in the King's Tomb). Renie will give general directions towards the Tomb; go to Vels, Rzarch, you can find it from thereon.

1. Entering the King's Tomb prompts a journal update.
2. The player can now return without a Dwemer Coherer (or other item)(disp. drop).
3. The player can return with one of the three, disp. raise, some reward.
4. If the player doesn't have the journal update yet, but does have one of the three, they can just skip this step by giving one to Renie directly.


Quest #3
Chorus of the Craftsmen

Renie has gained information about a place called "Chorus of the Maker", a place where the Dwemer craftsmen resided. She wants the player to go to this place and find parts relevant to Dwemer Centurions. (There's a "Dwemer Centurion Eye").

Renie is pretty sure the player will have to go through "Pillar of Learning" and NOT to "Veil of Heartfire", but doesn't know much else.

Get the Eye. Return. Reward.

Rank Acquired: Archaeologian.


[Introduction to Trevinual, the archaeologian who went mad, but who knows hints/answers to most of Kemel-Ze's puzzles.]


Quest #4
Puzzle #1
Frozen Passage

Quest #5
Puzzle #2
Mzulangth's Laboratory

Rank Acquired: Academian.

Quest #6
Heated Halls

Features
- Olchunz
- Karkanch

Olchunz seems to be the place where they generate steam (it's a big vertical construct in a lava pool).
Karkanch is some kind of ventilation system(?).

This quest would be about research or something. So go to Olchunz and Karkanch. Take notes. Come back.


Quest #7
Puzzle #3
Reaching Asturmz


====

Side Quest(s)

1. Ficois Meras studies Dwemer machinery. He needs scrap metal. He pays a fixed (profitable) price for scrap metal.

In dialog he will check for how much scrap metal the player has.

Topic: "you have scrap metal"

[Scrap Metal < 5]
Choice:
Here's a piece of scrap metal (Additem Gold [x], RemoveItem Scrap Metal 1)
No thanks

[Scrap Metal > 5]
Choice:
Here's 5 pieces of scrap metal (Additem Gold [5x], RemoveItem Scrap Metal 5)
No thanks

====

It could also be that the Puzzle Quests and IAS are parallel.
So the Puzzle Quests are actually secret, because otherwise you'd have to give your loot back to the IAS who has official jurisdiction.

IAS
- Initiation
- Kings Tomb
- Chorus of the Craftsmen
- Heated Halls

Trevinual
- Puzzle 1
- Puzzle 2
- Puzzle 3

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I don't really have time to critique this one fully, but I'd say a lot of this looks a bit too basic for what this quest should be.

On a specific note, for Quest 1, the keys are not an initation ritual, they're genuinely unknown to the society. This quest is already programmed for the most part, just expand her 'thanks for the key' dialogue to include the recommendation.

[Why]

I disagree with BC here, I think many of these quests are in fact too elaborate. The areas Hemi made all have never been uncovered, the player literally is the first one to breach the deeper levels. There shouldn't be a journal with hints for any puzzles except maybe the first one in a series (a journal with hints is pretty lame and overused anyway).

The King's Tomb has been accessed and investigated long ago, no keys should be needed to enter it and no important items should remain there.

I think the player should indeed be sent to Kemel-Ze from Helnim, and when he brings Renie Cierraise one of the three keys (for which we need a new purpose) she'll give the player a recommendation to become a full member of the society. Maybe an initiation exam like was suggested earlier (I liked that). Then the player should be allowed to actively investigate the remaining puzzles and deeper levels himself, with the society just backing him up for supplies (torches, lockpics, potions) instead of actively telling you what to do and where to go. The puzzles themselves should provide enough of a challenge. A "quest" or at least some guiding dialogue will be needed to recover the cylinders for in Sel Balac Mzulangth. The rest is just scripting to make the puzzles work.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I was talking about things like 'Quest 2: Find a Cohererer from Cell X' and 'Quest 3: Find a Centurion Eye from Cell Y', which are about as basic as things get. Yes, it 'shows the player the ruin', but ultimately without anything added that just means walking back and forth up some really long boring hallways. Quests should add as well as demonstrate.

And Why, the hints are very much needed - a lot of Hemi's puzzles would be undoable without them (e.g. the one where you need to know which Dwemer sigil corresponds to which Dwemer starsign, something which is only mentioned in some obscure engraving from Redguard or something). But read the rest of the thread for the background to all this. Or maybe it's in my PM Inbox somewhere.

Anyway, I am doing too much dangerous procrastination here. Sort it out amongst yourselves.

[Why]

You make a good point about the fact that we need some sort of hints for those puzzles, but I don't think it should be the journal just because even when the guy got lost in the deeper levels there's no way he could have stumbled across these puzzles since they're not reachable unless you solve the other puzzles first. Instead I think it would be better if we write one or two new books about, for instance, Dwemer astronomy, that are used in the initiation interview in the Helnim HQ of the guild after you got your recommendation.

[The Greatness]

I agree with BC that the quests are fairly basic. That's why I came up with the idea of interfearence. Here's a quest I designed that could introduce the player to the interfearance.

Misplaced

-Talk to Renie. She will tell you that she's been waiting for Calvar Dividus who she sent to investigate some mysterious machinery in Tower of Requiem, but he is taking to long and she wants the player to find out what's wrong.
-Fight your way past a few enemies to reach Tower of Requiem. There you will meet Calvar Dividus and a couple of warriors guarding him wandering round the room. Talking to Calvar will reveale that he beleives he has misplaced his note book which had all the information about the machinery. He asks that if the player could find the note book he could return to Renie.
-Talk to either of the warriors. they will say that often Calvar can be very forgetfull, but they say that this time they are sure that they saw a figure run down a certain corridor. They haven't told each other yet.
-Travel down the corridor they were talking about and the player will pass a few destroyed enemies. Next to one they should see a dropped symbol of House Hlallu- a shield or helmet for example. The journal update will inform the player of the objects origins if they do not releise.
-Talking to Calvar about it and he will ask you to tell this to Renie.
-Talk to Renie and she will ask you to find the notebook. She suspects the Hlallu thief will have probably stopped at some point in Marog, so suggests you ask around there for any strangers that have recently visited town.
-Many people in Marog will say that they beleive that a stranger is staying in the Swallows Nest.
(I realise the following is a bit sketchy)
-Confront the stranger with your accusation. He will challenge your to a dual of honour to proove your worth. Kill him and return the book to Renie.

Obviously, House Hlallu will be after their revenge and will return to cause misscheif if later quests.

[MMMowSkwoz]

I like IP's scrap metal side-quests. Simple, but adds a bit of flavour to NPCs who are otherwise just standing around doing nothing.

I tried my hand at a questline. It starts off with the standard faction-y quests, but then is essentially just exploring and puzzles. I scrapped the idea of crazy dude and his journal (I think we can lose that "Healer's Quarters" cell) and instead have the IAS dudes giving you hints and suggestions. The idea being they are the experts, so they can muse on various topics when you get stuck and this should help you out.

My concerns are:
- No traditional quest progression / rank progression
- The ending feels a bit anticlimactic

Thoughts / criticisms, please.

[immortal_pigs]

The "Honorary" in Honorary Academian seems redundant.

The whole pay of the bribe to the Telvanni seems out of place to the rest of your questline. I'd imagine the IAS would have other people take care of that. But I agree it should still be hinted at in dialogue.

I agree the Healer's Quarters seemed out of place (far too comfortable and organized). Your solution makes complete sense; those savants all over the place should have some kind of purpose.

I think your quest "Research and Learning" should be changed somewhat. If you look at the map you will see that Karkanch is over 6 hostile interiors away from the nearest IAS one. If the IAS really has been going this deep then they might as well know everything about Kemel-Ze.
So I'd change it to the IAS having deduced the existance of such a place, but needing the player to go find it. The rest of the quest is good.

The rest of your questline is good as far as I'm concerned.

At Kemel-Ze, if you unlock any of the three 'key puzzles' and bring one of the keys to the leader of the expedition, she will give you either a recommendation to be let into the faction, or a straight-out promotion into the faction.

BC: you keep referring to these keys. Where are they? Have they already been put into Kemel-Ze? Or do they still need to be made? I looked for something like "Key to the King's Tomb" but didn't find anything in the CS. So it would be helpful if you could explain more specifically the how and what.

[MMMowSkwoz]

The whole pay of the bribe to the Telvanni seems out of place to the rest of your questline. I'd imagine the IAS would have other people take care of that. But I agree it should still be hinted at in dialogue.

I know what you mean, but I wanted the relationship with the Telvanni to be in there somewhere - it's supposed to be the overaching feel of Maps 1 and 2, so to not mention it at all would be very odd.

I think your quest "Research and Learning" should be changed somewhat. If you look at the map you will see that Karkanch is over 6 hostile interiors away from the nearest IAS one. If the IAS really has been going this deep then they might as well know everything about Kemel-Ze.
So I'd change it to the IAS having deduced the existance of such a place, but needing the player to go find it. The rest of the quest is good.

Fair point. But how would they have deduced it? Studying Dwemer texts sounds feasible I suppose?

BC: you keep referring to these keys. Where are they? Have they already been put into Kemel-Ze? Or do they still need to be made? I looked for something like "Key to the King's Tomb" but didn't find anything in the CS. So it would be helpful if you could explain more specifically the how and what.

The keys are:

Chungkepfz: TR_m2_kmlz_Key1
Hall of Reason: TR_m2_kmlz_Key2
Tower of Requiem: TR_m2_kmlz_Key3

Renie has dialogue already thanking you for finding them.

[Why]

The keys are "TR_m2_kmlz_Key1", "...Key2" and "...Key3". They all are guarded by a puzzle of some sort.

[immortal_pigs]

Relationship to the Telvanni, specifically Marog, can be implemented in dialog, imo.

Yes, the IAS doesn't really have to explain how they know about Karkanch, they've just "deduced" it. Like in "The Ruins of Kemel-Ze", the adventuring archaeologist knows how far down they will have to dig, because he knows the standard height of Dwemer ruins that are not underground. So they found something similar in another ruin, therefore it's likely in Kemel-Ze.

Ah ok, but those are the keys to open "Hall of Lzigat", they have nothing to do with the King's Tomb. That's why I was a bit confused.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Yeah, the King's Tomb is already ancient news (i.e. discovered when that book's talking about, back in the Second Era some time). Indeed, half the point of KZ is that really the archaelogists do know a lot about it, and so when the player really gets to discover new places is when they do things like complete Hemi's puzzles, which no one is meant to have worked out before.

MowSkwoz, I very much like your plan. I personally like the Telvanni bribing, but as with the TG, find that 'gold' is a meaningless entity in Morrowind except as a quest reward. Either find some other way to pay him, or as Impi suggested make a substantial reference to an arrangement in dialogue and scrap this quest.

I love the final quest, though as Impi points out the keys are for the Hall of Lzigat, which is another undiscovered area (at present it is inaccessible in-game: some rocks to be disabled block the relevant path).

I am fine with the 'freeform style', but a few more directed quests (e.g. add one to deal with Lzigat) would just make it feel that much more interesting.

[Why]

Indeed - to reach Lzigat, TR_m2_kmlz_Exc1 and TR_m2_kmlz_Exc2 (big rocks) in Fzekic need to be disabled (I suggest some sort of excavation).

Also, the map is off. Wake of Starborne is connected to Fzekic, not Chungkefpz.

Also as far as I know the three keys don't have a use yet, so MMMSkwoz's plan to combine them works.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Ah, okay, that's good.

Yes, I remember now: they're called Lzigat but have no actual connection to those cells. Although if we want to have a Lzigat quest seperately, and reserve the much cooler Hemi puzzles for last, then bringing the keys up earlier for Lzigat might make sense. Or alternatively (maybe a better idea, to stick to MowSkwoz's plan) they can be kept 'backstage' until Renie 'realises what they're for' post-Lzigat. Maybe something found in Lzigat can point this out for her.