Mantriel's Showcase

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:26 am

Hi!

I'm working on a house and I have some problem with the furniture. I'm creating a DE_R home (Hlaalu or Redoran)

What kind of fireplace, chimney and lights would you use? I really hate the paper lanterns (because they are quite dangerous in real life), the furn_fireplace10 is huge, and is missing the chimney part, the other fireplaces seem to be _c_ or _nord_.

And I would like to add a small nightdesk. I retextured the De_P_Table_01 with swirlwood, I think the table's top is even enough to call it De_R_, would this be an accepted method, or shall I look for a new model in an addon?

VulcaN · Post by **VulcaN** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:37 am

Well a few of the things i've picked up so far are, first, look at beth's interiors and try to use the same lighting style and stuff as them. And as far as I know the only redoran fireplace is the hearth and if you were to do a hlaalu interior they really don't have fireplaces. And about the desk, your only supposed to have morrow bm, tribunal, and TRdata for dependicies so just gotta make what you have work.

Oh, and with the lights, basiclly anything de_ will work, just don't use ones with a too large of radius.

In my showcase using the small p_table wasn't ok but in a claim somewhere I read that it was ok to supplement. Not sure on that, someone with more knowledge will have to let you know.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:17 am

if you're doing a Dunmer interior (any great house or velothi architecture), then only use de_ lights. The Dunmer don't really use fireplaces, but if you can make something out of architecture pieces that looks good and doesn't have errors, then go for it. There are glass lanterns as well as paper lanterns, and I'm sure you could figure out some way of making wall sconces using wall hooks and candles.

The square de_r table (I forget the number) makes a fine night table if you scale it down using 3D scale (S key). Adding in new models or using things from data files other than Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm, Bloodmoon.esm or TR_Data isn't allowed.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:18 am

Thanks. The nightdesk, is a good idea.
(Why oh, why, do I like fireplaces, and the Hlaalu at the same time?) :-/

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:45 am

I created this showcase in 2,5 hours and I haven't really playtested it yet.

It is an Imperial style manor/house, for 3 people designed to be placed in Caldera.

If no one is reviewing it today, I'll expand and playtest it tomorrow.

alex25 · Post by **alex25** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:07 pm

Your showcase is dirty. Clean it!
Also I may add that it's quite empty and the objects that are there look far to straight. Vary their position a bit (lot) more. The table and chair upstairs also float so "f" them down. Otherwise it's a good int but there is a lot of work to do.
You should playtest the showcase before sending it.

Also for the fireplace you could use in_r hearths for Redoran interiors.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:45 pm

Just thought I'd explain cleaning an .esp for you, seeing as nobody else seems to be doing. Because every object in the game is a copy of a master object in the data files, saving the changes you make to one instance affects all of the others. When you make changes to something you place using the object properties window, leave the window with the cross button or pressing escape, or the changes are saved to the master and the file becomes "dirty".

You can remove these changes using a program called TESAME, which is linked on our utilities page. Select all objects not created by you (objects created by you for specific purposes should be given a unique ID to denote this) and remove them, then save the cleaned file.

Having clean files is essential in a mod project that deals with as many file submissions as TR. It's easy to do once you get into the swing of things, don't worry

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:49 pm

Thanks for the replies. I was surprised to hear that I have dirty references, I thought I can avoid them. I must misunderstand something in this area.

Since Alex25 reviewed it can I assume that after fixing the problems I can reupload it, or shall I create a new interior from scratch?

The problems mentioned:

1. Your showcase is dirty. Clean it!

2. Also I may add that it's quite empty

3. and the objects that are there look far to straight. Vary their position a bit (lot) more.

4. The table and chair upstairs also float so "f" them down.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:53 pm

yes, you are allowed to fix a file twice before you have to start a new one. This way, you get the chance to learn from your mistakes, but won't simply get promoted for bashing your head against the wall long enough. (anyone can fix a file to our standards if they try 50 times)

Feriluce · Post by **Feriluce** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:42 pm

Mantriel wrote:Thanks for the replies. I was surprised to hear that I have dirty references, I thought I can avoid them. I must misunderstand something in this area.

Generally you will always end up with a dirty .esp no matter how much you try to avoid it.

If you look at any other cell than your own and somehow do a tiny change by accident (even if you ctrl+z it) That cell will show up in your .esp.

If you by accident at one time press save on any object (even without changing anything) that object will show up.

Its much easier to just not care too much about dirtyness while modding and clean it up with tesame afterwards as you'll have to do that anyway.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:22 pm

Feriluce, Cathartis: Thanks, for the tips, I figured out what I'm doing wrong (saving an items properties instead of cancelling out). I cleaned it with Tesame, I hope nothing is altered anymore which wasn't supposed to.

The file: A manor/house designed to be placed in caldera. 3 residents, 2 imperials (a married couple) and a dunmer housekeeper. The man works as a map maker, the wife was a famous tailor, she does not work anymore (as a tailor), but still has all the equipment.

The cell's name is "Mantriels showcase"

Shapeshiftr · Post by **Shapeshiftr** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:18 am

Well, well, well here. I have to say, you did a pretty good job. You definitely have your own style, and I'm not going to say that's bad. However, a few errors-

1. A bunch of "floaters," or objects that don't touch a surface on 2+ sides, and "bleeders," objects that run into other objects, such as the ground, or an adjacent object. E.G. the fork on the table is floating, and the bed is bleeding into the wall. Always check over your work for these errors before submitting!

2. Rug spam in the bedroom! One or two well-placed rugs can take the place of 3 or 4.

3. Which leads me to my next point. Placement, placement, placement. Everything in this interior felt a little too...perfect. Example - the food on the table under the cupboards, while not being gridsnapped (and, btw, you should never use gridsnap when placing anything other than room tiles and sometimes furniture, not that you did here), was all in a perfect little square. Same with the shelves and most things in the interior, though I did see you rotate a few objects, such as the spools. While this IS a rich manor, it still is being lived in. While you did make it feel lived in in other ways, make things look used. You don't need to go as far as having stuff littering the floor, but tilt some papers, put some more stuff in the shelves besides just books. Make it look REAL.

4. Which, again, leads me to another point. You created A LOT of new objects. Some of these were justified - new containers with different stuff in them (though you really could've just stuck with pre-filled containers, they work just as well), the pot (which I'll get to in a second). But making a new bolt of cloth and not changing much anything about it? There are vanilla (existing in Morrowind data files) bolts of cloth; just use those. Same goes for the spools, and while you renamed the door, do you call the door to your room Bedroom? I mean, it was a nice variation, and I'm not saying I DON'T like it, it's just a little excessive. Things like that definitely show what kind of person you are, though, and you definitely have your own, unique style.

5. Books. Remember that not all houses are going to, for lack of a better word, justify having unique books. While, in this circumstance, having maps for a cartographer is cool, and same with the book/scroll spam on the shelf, let's say you were a fisherman. Would the only things in your house be fishing trophies, guides, and such? Add a little bit of personality to his study, something that makes him not just "Imperial Cartographer," but "Volinnus Hersennius," a normal person.

6. Ah. While a script was a nice addition to the house, you're usually not allowed to put scripts (and NPCs, for that matter) in an interior at TR, unless specifically asked to. One error in the script -

Code: Select all

Cast, "MH_cauldron_dmg", Player

Heh, not a real line. Try

Code: Select all

Player->AddSpell, "MH_cauldron_dmg"

, make the spell a curse, then put a timer that after 5 seconds or something

Code: Select all

Player->RemoveSpell, "MH_cauldron_dmg"

s the player. However, you will not promoted on this small script alone. Sorry

Sorry if I sound really oppressive

While a note to your husband is nice, and I personally think that would be a nice little addition to a house, not usually accepted, for reasons that I would make my self look like a fool trying to explain. Add some real personality to your house, don't just give it. Show, don't tell, remember? Keep working at it, and listen to my review. Good luck, man.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:09 am

Shapeshifter: could you send me a message with more deteails or rewrite your review, I couldn't understand what the real problem was in my interior. I am willing and happy to change and tweak it as many times as needed, but I really couldn't understand your point (or points).

You speak of "a bunch" of bleeders and floaters and you name only 1-1. Are there more? You speak of a "rug spam" in the bedroom, in my opinion all 3 are needed, but if you would clarify your point I can replace them or delete them. Placement: I think I moved everything by a few degrees. There aren't to many items in the cell, I have no idea how to place them "more realistically".

Point 4. I'll delete some of the new items, if this is a requirement.

Point 5. "Add a little bit of personality to his study" I think I achieved this very well (Thanks to the many items I created). I don't feel the need to add anything else, these characters aren't involved in any quests. I'm sure I managed to give these people more of a personality than bethesda's NPCs.

Point 6. The script works well, I tested it and I'll delete it.

Feriluce · Post by **Feriluce** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:25 am

I gotta say it looks extremely neat, as if the owners just tidied up and put everything away in anticipation of getting guests or something. I dont know if that is by design or not. I just personally like my interiors a bit messy so they looks like someone lives there.

The rugs looks decent to me.

You might wanna rotate the quill a bit. Its standing completely upright in the middle of the inkwell without leaning on any of the sides.

alex25 · Post by **alex25** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:33 pm

I think this showcase is a bit too orderly for most people's tastes. I mean everything is rotated at 0 or 90 degrees not a bit random as it is in MW. Of course you can't and even shouldn't rotate them all but a few items will make a great diference. Also try to fill the most visible places like the tables a bit more. As for bleeders you don't have that many except a couple of chairs and a book or 2. Also the lights upstairs seem a bit too much.

Overall it isn't a bad showcase and you need a realy small bit of work to make it ok. Pay a bit more attention to details.

Shapeshiftr · Post by **Shapeshiftr** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:04 am

Alex, you said the exact same thing as Feriluce...

Anyway, Mantriel-

You created an occupation for your resident, and that's cool. Nothing screams "Cartographer" more than unfinished maps, and extensive map collections. But what I'm trying to say is that he really isn't anyone besides a mapmaker. Lawyers, for example, don't just have law references all throughout their house. They might have a picture of their family, maybe the latest novel they're reading, a coat that they forgot in their study, a plate from last night's dinner lying around, etc. You did a good job making him a cartographer, now make him into a person.

Also, both Alex and Feriluce are right. Not many people are THAT perfect. If you want to make a perfectionist's house, then make everything symmetrical and evenly-spaced, not just clumped together and set at perfect 45-degree integers. Anyway, that's beside the point. At TR, most houses you will be making aren't perfect. Just normal people with a little bit of disorganization, REAL people that you would expect to see. To get a good idea of the feel of a realistic house, check some other promoted showcases. The skill we look for most in potential Modders is to be able to make a house that looks like something you would see if you walked into a normal, let's say, tailor's shop. While I'm not saying that there can be no individuality (:P), make it realistic individuality. Right now this house, while having the basics down, needs to be fine-tuned to be realistic.

I tend to ramble a bit, and I think I might have said the same thing like 5 times, but I think you get my point. Again, check some other promoted showcases. Sorry about the mis-communication.

EDIT: Also, sorry about the script. That works just fine, I was pretty tired.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:57 am

Thanks for the replies (all three of you.

I got some ideas how to add more clutter to the cell, I'll try to finish it till Monday. (And I'll start to think of my next showcase.

)

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:28 pm

I'm happy the forums are online again.

I am at 500 refr. at the moment, and I still have a few ideas I want to implement (I won't stop till 600 refr, that is the double of the previous showcase). Once everything is done, I need to double-and-triple check everything. Becoming a reviewer takes more time than I hoped it would.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:54 pm

Mantriel wrote:Becoming a reviewer takes more time than I hoped it would.

Patience is a very important part of being a reviewer, especially with how much int making has slowed down recently. Another important part is being able to fix mistakes you find which is why, as inconvenient as this may seem, getting promoted in the field you want to review is vital.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:19 am

Third try.

Praedator · Post by **Praedator** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:06 am

Clean: Clean
Gridsnap Used: Yes
Northmarker Set: Yes
Fits Exterior: Yes
IllegalToSleepHere: Yes
Style Mixing: Yes, one item
Lighting Settings: Good

Few things first:
- You do not need to place lightbulbs in windowbays. TR doesn't do that.
- Bathtubs are reserved for very wealthy people and interiors, you should remove/replace it.
- Do not put objects half-on and half-off carpets/rugs.
- I like your solution for placing winebottles between hooks.
- Do not use objects which are designated for other interiors and styles, like MH_misc_goblet_dagoth.
- You have made way too many personal objects, this clutters your file with loads of references. Only make personal objects if there is no other way to solve it. Generally that is not many. If everyone does this the main TR_data files will be so large noone can download them, as it is now its already 300-400MB.
- Smaller soulgems (upto common) cannot stay on their bottom, if not supported.
- You have included a trapdoor, nice but leads nowhere.
- There is a large beam TR_In_C_plain_beam0, running through your ground floor with no purpose whatsoever.
- I like your firewood solutions, but the note is not really needed.
- Frost/fire salts do not belong in a kitchen, reserved for occasional offerings and alchemist/wizard interiors.
- It is not a good idea to place objects on top of the large cloths, as the surface never matches up with the object on top.
- The barrel sideways on top of two other barrels, is not natural, it would roll off.
- Avoid rooms of one single tile, mainly because of turning doors, always leave room for the doors to turn. So two tiles would be minimum. Unless you have no working door of course.

Comments:
Very nice interior and very well cluttered, like me you are a bit of a cluttermonkey, I like that

I believe it must be a peanut to make a new interior, with the above mentioned in your mind. I would like to see an Hlaalu interior, 2x3 tiles floorplan with either a basement or a topfloor.[Edit] It should fit an existing exterior [Edit]. Use de_p furniture and show us that you are able to rotate and place objects on poor surfaces. Do that and I will be happy to recommend you for promotion.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:29 am

Praedator: Could you check my first or second interior. I believe neither of them has any of the mistakes you mentioned.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:43 am

but your other two files had other problems...

After 3 files you have to start a new file, but generally by this point you've learned what most of the mistakes are and won't make them again.

Praedator · Post by **Praedator** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:52 am

Praedator: Could you check my first or second interior. I believe neither of them has any of the mistakes you mentioned.

I reviewed your last file, as we always do. I was not harsh, I just mentioned our policies, and general faults I saw. I did not mention one bleeder or floater, of which several are there actually.

You definately have good potential. If you want to apply for Interior Modder and later Interior Reviewer, take my comments with you and make a new interior as requested.

Mantriel · Post by **Mantriel** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:20 pm

I believe we misunderstand each other. :-/

Praedator · Post by **Praedator** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:31 pm

I just do what TR requires, I believe we all should if you want to work in a team. Especially so as a reviewer.

If you do not want to make a new file that is fine, but you will not be promoted with the work you have delivered so far.

Also the admin told you to start over with a new interior.

[Edit] For clarification:
We always review the latest, most updated and thus best file, you have three go's to remove all errors from it and then you need to make a new file. This means that we do not look back to earlier files. Your file is nice, but yet not good enough, hence my remarks. On the other hand I would like to see that you can rotate items and thus using de_p furniture. This is why you have to make a new file, which should be a piece of cake because technically you are good.