i2-437-Tri

[Jule]

First WIP is up. Done with the temple path, it should fit the exterior like a glove now. Haven't started work on the other parts yet but I sure am going to, real soon. I don't think there are going to be any issues with their shell since it looks like they're under ground level. No detailing done whatsoever except on the temple path so I knocked down progress to 30%. This is going to take a few weeks.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Quality > Speed, though I certainly wouldn't mind you beating your estimate.

[Jule]

Since the previous modders who worked on this claim made pretty big shells, I'll have to split some of this into severall smaller cells. There is a floor which already has +800 refs and it isn't nearly as cluttered as it should be. In the end this should add up to about 8 cells, possibly more if I can come up with some ideas for the purpose of the particular offices. Any thoughts?

[Thrignar Fraxix]

feel free to just cut out parts. This doesn't necessarily have to be huge.

[Adanorcil]

Since the previous modders who worked on this claim made pretty big shells, I'll have to split some of this into severall smaller cells. There is a floor which already has +800 refs and it isn't nearly as cluttered as it should be. In the end this should add up to about 8 cells, possibly more if I can come up with some ideas for the purpose of the particular offices. Any thoughts?

I agree with TF. Nobody is going to complain (let alone notice) that the interior doesn't fill the exterior entirely. Parts of this are indeed enormous, and I think 8 resulting cells is probably too much.



I've just taken a look at your latest WIP and it's looking pretty good. You've made some good additions to the Temple path. Here's just a few things that I think could be improved.

- You added a lot of banners, which is good. However, I'd advise not using the yellowish Tribunal/saint banners. Necrom, out of all places sacred to the Tribunal temple, is the one least directly associated with the three. In addition, some of them look rather weird hanging in nothingness, especially the Almalexia one by the entrance. Not only does her raised hand give the impression that she is a mascot of the theme park ride you're about to enter, but that banner also totally blocks the view of your otherwise great interior. It also solves the "banner attribution problem", a la "why does St. Olms get to be the one above the exit?"

My advice would be to replace these banners with the more fitting tan Temple banners (a few extra ones were added in the latest TR_Data) and probably just remove the ones that are not against a wall.

- I like what you did with the walls. The planters and braziers liven them up in a positive way. Right now, it feels a little messy, though. I think this could be solved easily by using only one TR_ex_nec_pl_02 at a time between two braziers and by making sure the planters and pedestals all line up neatly. (E.g. so that none of the edges of TR_ex_nec_pl_02 stick out of the pedestals. You still have quite a bit of scaling leeway on the planters for that.) Perhaps place some subtle invisible lightsources in some of the planters too. It's usually a great visual effect.

- What's the furn_de_bar_02 towards the end supposed to be?

- The ramp by the entrance is a good solution, but I think it looks a little odd, especially with the slanted pillars. It also looks so steep no one could actually be expected to walk on that (even though it probably works in the game). I messed around in the CS a bit and tried to come with what I think is a [url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Vahiku/TamrielRebuilt/templepath.jpg]elegant solution[/url], consisting of two TR_ex_nec_s_01, two TR_ex_nec_h_05 for support and two TR_ex_nec_m_03 to cover the seams up. Note: some planters were accidentally deleted in that picture. Ignore that.

- I still feel uneasy about the use of TR_ex_nec_tomb_02 to cover up seams. Even at .50, it still looks too big to fit. The cracks in the ceiling can be fixed with some smart use of the trim on TR_ex_nec_h_05. The balcony, I'm sure, can be constructed in a different way.

That's about all for the temple path. Sorry for the long list. Just for the record: this place is shaping up nicely.


EDIT: Forgot to say one thing. I know you haven't really started on the other cells yet, but when you get to the basement, change the entrance to the catacombs there. This is a non-public entrance to the catacombs, for use of the Temple members only, which means it's still pretty important. It doesn't need to be absolutely grand, but it should still be a lot more visible and accessible more directly. Right now, it's at the very end of a long, boring hallway where all you'd expect would be the broom closet.

[Jule]

Done some work on the temple path, hope you like it better now. I just need to rearrange the plants again, since they are now a bit messed up, mainly beacause I messed around with the planters. (I've also replaced the TR_nec_tomb2 pieces which used to cover the seams with some better suiting stuff and improvised some new railings for the balcony.) Done some work on the catacombs entrance, it should be obvious now which way people need to go in order to get to the catacombs. I've also cut out some parts of the temple offices, and merged them into a single cell again in order to keep the cell number at a healthy level.
All these things obviously still need a lot more detailing, but I guess this is usefull if you want to get the feeling of the place.

I was also thinking of adding some more books and scrolls. I would then use a part of the basement as an archive which would hold various writings: from food orders, financial reports, lists of salaries of the temple servants, lists of people burried in the catacombs (of course, most of these should be pretty generic, for example: "This is a list of all the faithful mer who will rest forever in the catacombs of Necrom.") If anyone has some more ideas on what these texts should contain, I'll be glad to include them.

[Yeti]

Here are some ideas that would fit a dusty old archive:

[This dusty old scroll's writing is so faded it is difficult to make out what it says. The parchment it is written on is beginning to crumble.] (Maybe put these on the bottom shelves)

[This scroll documents an edict issued by the Tribunal Temple's leadership.]

[This scroll contains the personal teachings of a Temple priest.]

[This appears to be a map of Necrom's catacombs. Unfortunately, it is so old most of it can’t be made out. Due to this it is of little present use.]

[This ancient scroll details proper Temple procedure and protocol.]

[This book is a guide on the proper behavior of Temple priests and priestesses.]

[This scroll documents priest appointments to Temples all over Morrowind.]

[Jule]

I've also come up with some possible scrolls and books for the administration building. However, I would like for someone who has a deeper knowledge of lore to check if this is OK and point out those that need to be removed or redone. Of course, there will be more of these when the claim is finished.

[This scroll lists donations and funds raised for the maintenance of the catacombs. The list is rather extensive.]
[This book contains details on the finances of the Temple in Necrom.]
[This scroll lists various amounts of goods and money owed to the Temple of Necrom.]
[This scroll is nearly illegible. However, the few lines which can still be read contain information on various ancient burial procedures.]
[This book is a catalogue of the numerous scriptures and books found in the library.]
[This old scroll is almost completely unreadable. The remaining words are to few as to make any sense whatsoever.]
[This book contains a list of people who have given considerable sums of money to the Tribunal Temple in Necrom.]
[This document, written by the High Priest of Necrom himself, is a permission to begin excavation work on yet another level of the catacombs.]
[This scroll chronicles various events in the history of Necrom. These events seem to be of minor importance.]
[This book meticulously lists all the bodyparts of the numerous mer interred in the catacombs which were taken to be incorporated into the Ghostfence protecting Morrowind from the blight of Red Mountain.]
[This book is the account on the annual expenses of the Temple in Necrom. The first entries are several centuries old.] (This would be unique)
[This book is a copy of an account on the annual expenses of the Temple in Necrom. The data it contains spans only a few years.] (There would be more of these)
[This scroll lists the names of workers employed to extend the catacombs at some point. No date is given, but it seems that some of the mer haven't been payed their wage.]
[This is a list of all the faithful mer who have served as Guardian Ordinators of the Temple in Necrom during the last few decades. Some of the names are illegible.]

[Yeti]

I don't think I can properly lore check these, but I will say they sound infinitely better than my suggestions

[Adanorcil]

Sorry, didn't notice there was an update to this. The temple path looks better, I think. (Minus some clutter fixing, like you said. There's a big gap above the entrance door too.)

I feel the railing of the balcony still looks rather like a kludge. That stone bit floating in the middle just seems totally unbelievable. I can't blame you, however. I tried to come up with a design myself and there's just not a single piece in the entire set that allows for something like that. Most of the pieces in the Necrom set are by default meant to be annoyingly HUGE. If we can't come with a better solution, I think it might be a better idea to rearrange the entire interior a bit to avoid a balcony railing. The only possible solution I see is to use two TR_ex_nec_cause_01 pieces at about .6 size to create the balcony. You'll have to move the doors on the ground level to the niches with the benches. (Like [url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Vahiku/TamrielRebuilt/templepath.jpg]this[/url]).

Good work on the catacomb entrances. This is how it should have been.

On those descriptions for archives: they're not a bad idea, but let's not overdo them. A whole room filled with these will be maddeningly frustrating to any player trying to go through them. Since we can't even come close to realistic archive sizes, I suggest we just have about five or so of these (and copy them a bit). Just for the record, I believe most of these should be scrolls and not books.

[This dusty old scroll's writing is so faded it is difficult to make out what it says. The parchment it is written on is beginning to crumble.]

Since this, in essence, says nothing, I would avoid using it.

[This appears to be a map of Necrom's catacombs. Unfortunately, it is so old most of it can’t be made out. Due to this it is of little present use.]

How about:
This appears to be a construction map of an area in the catacombs under Necrom. The page is rife with corrections and alterations.

[This scroll documents an edict issued by the Tribunal Temple's leadership.]
[This scroll contains the personal teachings of a Temple priest.]
[This ancient scroll details proper Temple procedure and protocol.]
[This book is a guide on the proper behavior of Temple priests and priestesses.]

This place appears to be an archive. Devotional and/or dogmatic texts probably don't belong here.

[This scroll lists donations and funds raised for the maintenance of the catacombs. The list is rather extensive.]

Ok. But cut out "funds raised". Necrom is an integral part of the Dunmer faith and fundraising makes it sound too much like a charity. Can perhaps be summarized as:

This long document lists donations for the maintenance of the catacombs over the past two years.

[This book contains details on the finances of the Temple in Necrom.]
[This scroll lists various amounts of goods and money owed to the Temple of Necrom.]

Similar to the first one, but less interesting.

[This scroll is nearly illegible. However, the few lines which can still be read contain information on various ancient burial procedures.]

Ok.

[This book is a catalogue of the numerous scriptures and books found in the library.]

I thought this was an archive. I wouldn't make it both a library and an archive.

[This old scroll is almost completely unreadable. The remaining words are to few as to make any sense whatsoever.]

Superfluous.

[This book contains a list of people who have given considerable sums of money to the Tribunal Temple in Necrom.]

Very similar to your first one.

[This document, written by the High Priest of Necrom himself, is a permission to begin excavation work on yet another level of the catacombs.]

Similar to Yeti's map, which I think was a superior idea. I wouldn't use the words "yet another". It sounds like we're trying to show off.

[This scroll chronicles various events in the history of Necrom. These events seem to be of minor importance.]

This sounds like a paradox. It doesn't really say much, either.

[This book meticulously lists all the bodyparts of the numerous mer interred in the catacombs which were taken to be incorporated into the Ghostfence protecting Morrowind from the blight of Red Mountain.]

This is information that should not be known precisely. People have been buried in Necrom since time immemorial, and we should give the impression that the number of burials there is 'uncountable'. There is probably an administration for it, but that primarily restricts itself to more recent burials.

[This book is the account on the annual expenses of the Temple in Necrom. The first entries are several centuries old.] (This would be unique)

Ok.

[This book is a copy of an account on the annual expenses of the Temple in Necrom. The data it contains spans only a few years.]

'Span' would probably sound better here. Ok otherwise.

[This scroll lists the names of workers employed to extend the catacombs at some point. No date is given, but it seems that some of the mer haven't been payed their wage.]

I would leave out the latter sentence. I suppose you were trying to add a sense of realism there, but in a sacred place like Necrom, I think it would be better not to insinuate corruption.

[This is a list of all the faithful mer who have served as Guardian Ordinators of the Temple in Necrom during the last few decades. Some of the names are illegible.]

I don't see why some names need to be illegible, especially if it's a relatively recent document. They are called 'Ordinators in Mourning' in Necrom, by the way.


I believe some of these could probably use some actual textual content, rather than just a description of the content, but it's not highly necessary. Just one more idea: a copy of the document that licenses the bonewalker smithy in Necrom to create bonewalkers, thereby denoting their work as official Tribunal-sanctioned sorcery, rather than blasphemous necromancy.

[Jule]

Thank you very much for your input Ada. I was aiming to create a lot of content for the archive, scrolls, documents and records of lower importance, but also very important ones, which would add variety but wouldn't be over-the-top. I don't really know much about Necrom lorewise, so I was playing around without touching on any real history. There is also a library on the upper floors, which will contain the more conventional books. The material I have posted here is intended exclusively for the archive. The one I am really fond of is the one with the bodyparts, and I would really like to keep it. I could add a line saying that the older entries have almost completely faded, and that the oldest legible entry is only a few centuries old.

[Adanorcil]

Thank you very much for your input Ada. I was aiming to create a lot of content for the archive, scrolls, documents and records of lower importance, but also very important ones, which would add variety but wouldn't be over-the-top. I don't really know much about Necrom lorewise, so I was playing around without touching on any real history. There is also a library on the upper floors, which will contain the more conventional books. The material I have posted here is intended exclusively for the archive. The one I am really fond of is the one with the bodyparts, and I would really like to keep it. I could add a line saying that the older entries have almost completely faded, and that the oldest legible entry is only a few centuries old.

The reason I said the thing about the bodypart text is not because it is 'against lore' (and could therefore be fixed by making the exact number unknown). It is rather the impression it creates that is wrong. The donation of remains among the Dunmer is a custom steeped in tradition, honor and devotion. Listing them on a dusty scroll in the archive makes it bureaucratic, cold, dry and quantifiable. When put on such a scroll, it becomes subject to inspection and criticism, which clashes with the sincere conviction and pride the Dunmer have to voluntarily donate a part of their remains to their gods and their country.

[Jule]

New WIP up. Done some more work on the Temple path (with some useful sugestions from Ada) and on the Offices level. Redone the foyer by removing the shrine and replacing it with an improvised waterspout. This is about 45% done now.

7/6/2010 EDIT: New WIP up. Temple Offices part is done. This is a pretty big cell with lots of clutter, and having finished this part makes my task a little easier. Ref count is about 830, a rather agreeable number I suppose. I've also added two waterspouts to the Temple path. So, progress is now about 60%.

[Haplo]

Hi, please make a new post for each update, especially if they are weeks apart. Thanks.

[Jule]

My apologies. I had a lot going on, since the summer semester ended last week. Exams are now over and I think I'll have an update for both my claims in the next few days.

[Jule]

Some more progress: the living quarters, which are located on the upper floor, have been finished. You can delete my previous WIPs, they are not needed anymore.

[Jule]

New WIP up. Most of the work on the library has been done, there's only one bookshelf left to fill with books. A lot of work on the archive material has also been finished. The rest of this claim won't take much more and I hope this will be finished by the end of next week.

[RelinQ]

Hey Jule,

If you have the time, can you stick up a screenshot or two?, I'm eager to see.

Cheers.

[Jule]

Updating just in case something horrible and unexpected happens to me or my computer. The tower part is mostly finished, what's left is to complete the basement and the high priest's quarters and to make a quick chech for any ingame glitches. I'll upload some screenshots when I'm done, which will hopefully be very soon.

[Yeti]

This is an awesome claim! Great work on this Jule 8)

[Katze]

I just took a look at this, and it's fifteen different flavours of awesome! Can't wait to see the finished product!

[Adanorcil]

I've given this claim lots of scrutiny, but it's stood up to it. I'll never be a big fan of the water spouts, but they don't bother me much. Apart from that, perhaps detail some of the hallways a little bit. And perhaps use a non orange-glow fire model in the kitchen. There's better models for that I think. Otherwise, this is claim is pristine as far as I'm concerned.

[The Greatness]

So it's this, the Fane of Ancestors, and Necrom's done? Awesome.

[Jule]

Final WIP; 99% done. The texts have been uploaded for checking. The layout of the basement has been completely redone in order to create a better entrance to the catacombs. Every single item has been checked and re-checked in the CS and ingame. Playtested it several times. When the texts are approved, I'll have a final round of testing and then this can go into review.

Oh wait, I could add those black squares to cover up makeshift statics that are protruding through the boundaries of the shell.

[Jule]

Finished, have fun reviewing!

[Haplo]

Submitting to Review! Woohoo, this needs a review ASAP.

[Katze]

TESAME: Clean

Fits exterior: Yes



Northmarker set: Yes
Loading errors: No



Review: -quite a few bowls and pieces of clothing not properly sunk
-one or two other miscs actually floating, but this int was so massive I don't exactly blame you

Comments: Frigging awesome. The paths up to the temple and down to the catacombs have been improved and clarified immeasurably.

You've managed to make admin interesting, congratulations!

Rating: 10/10

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Approving, use my file. Very nice int.