Necrom

Why · Post by **Why** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:30 pm

Stuff happened on IRC. Posting relevants.

<TF|> how about we think up ideas for those last few necrom ints
<Why> TF|, what exts do we still need to fill for necrom?
<Why> a bunch of manors right? any of those square buildings too?
<TF|> should be an image somewhere
<TF|> http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=19404

<Why> would something like a "shrine for those who were stubbon enough not to listen to veloth" make sense?
<Why> to retroactively try to redeem their mistakes and save their souls?
<Why> probably not, eh?
<TF|> maybe
<TF|> better than nothing idea wise
<Why> not exactly what I was going for but okay
<Why> I liked IP's idea of a candlemaker
<Why> not sure if he/she should be altmer, but candlemaker sounds like something they'd need in necrom
<TF|> they'd import
<Stryker> Candlemakers make for boring interiors.
<Why> import cheap asian products when they need sacred, specifically tailored quality candles?
<Why> just throwing ideas out, not disagreeing

<Why> if we don't have a shrine to Ordinators who died while in service yet, that should definately be included
<Why> I recall something along those lines though so chances are it already exists in the pit

<Why> along the lines of my veloth idea, shrine to those who strayed from faith, may they find their way back to ALMSILVI by guidence of their ancestors?
<Why> basically dead people who in their dying delusions denounced faith

<Why> shrine for those who lost their life or belongings through the actions of n'wah, because they clung to their beliefs, may they be eternally rewarded and repayed in the afterlife for their service.

<Why> way too abstract, but could we have a shrine of the Water Face, for the blessing of telling the truth?
<Why> and that needs a totally different wording to even remotely make sense.
post-irc edit: I was basically thinking of a vivec shrine in an interior with a couple of watersprouts and a small pool in the middle, one would go in, make an offering, the water would rise and the door would lock, trapping the player, dialogue with the shrine is initiated, player has to answer truthfully or he will drown, if he answers correctly the water goes back to normal level. Maybe not exactly what you guys want though. A normal shrine could be nice too.

<TheGreatness> how about a forge where the ordinator armour is made?
<TF|> not something for a holy city
<TheGreatness> I thought the armour might be blessed or something after it was made
<Why> how many pilgrim's hostels do we have?
<TF|> we have a few I think
<TF|> possibly
<TF|> cat?
<Why> that's actually something we could do, armor consecration shrine
<TF|> he is out

<TF|> post these ideas
<TF|> so adan can comment
<TF|> by and large, I like them

<Why> I'm really starting to feel like I'm out of ideas now, but could we have a shrine devoted especially to non-dunmer convertees?
<Why> those who left behind their homes to follow the one three truths?

edit:moar
<Why> shrine of the ghostfence, in a figurative sense. May the strong shield the weak and the weak be shielded, like ALMSILVI shields us from the Sharmat
<TF|> oh hey, that could work

Why · Post by **Why** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:59 pm

While merging interiors I found [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=248715]i2-410[/url], an Arnesian War shrine that is supposed to go [url=http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9897526/TR%20Files/Charnelworks2.jpg]here[/url] in the Charnelworks. I find this a bit strange since all the other small exteriors like this one down in the Charnelworks are houses, can I move it to 22 in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=19404]Upper District[/url] so that we have one less shrine to worry about there? All the other houses like this one's exterior in the Charnelworks are simple poor residences, which would be way easier to make than yet another shrine, since we're sort of out of shrine ideas.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:05 pm

Since it got a generally good reply, I'm uploading that terrain texture.

Just for a side-note: this is pretty much something plucked straight of CGTextures and scaled. It just happened to look good straightaway.

Why · Post by **Why** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:44 pm

Since I have now merged and linked all available Necrom interiors that still awaited merging and linking, I can confirm that we do not have a shrine to fallen Ordinators. I think we definately should add that. Also, I went ahead and moved the Arnesian War Shrine to #22, which now is a single-floor building. You'll be able to check it out in my next WIP.

Why · Post by **Why** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:13 pm

So there seems to have been some discussion going on regarding the former "Foreign Quarter" of Necrom. I'm not aware of the full extent of these plans. What I've heard ranges from removing/redoing a couple of interiors, to nixing the place altogether and merely making it the Silt Strider landing and adding a garden of some sort (wut). So I'm kinda confused at the moment.

In my NPCing efforts, I had already decided that the "Foreign Quarter" was to be no more. The cell is currently merely called "Necrom", as are the docks, - This because extensively naming exterior cells is rather pointless. I was considering removing the Charnelworks and Upper District names too, but that's a different matter to be discussed another time, if at all - and are to be populated mainly by native Dunmer, providing services to people living inside the city and pilgrims passing by. After all, people need services, even when they're all pious and stuff and live above the largest ancestral tomb on the continent.

Adanorcil sent me a list of interiors he had issues with. While (I'm sorry Adan, but it has to be said) his info seems a bit dated, since many of the problems he found were already set to be resolved as I work through interiors, like crappy names I didn't give people, mismatching banners, and the obvious de-imperializing of what used to be the Census and Excise offices and the Shalk's Eye Cornerclub, he did mention the following things:

Necrom, Guild of Fighters - This is just unacceptable. If there is any place that should not have Imperial guilds, it's this. This is a Dunmer Holy City and the presence of this building amounts to a Mac Donald's inside the walls of the Forbidden City. This interior will simply be removed.
Necrom, Guild of Mages - Identical to FG.
Necrom, Remus Selitus' Workshop - Do we really need a foreign blacksmith in a Dunmer Holy City? (Especially one who sells on imperial armor?)
Necrom, Uvoo Viluth: Baked Goods - I think everyone can agree that any bakery makes for a silly interior and it does not belong in a Dunmer Holy City.
Necrom, Western Storehouse - This is place is stupendously useless. It has no function but filling space in the ex-foreign quarter and even on the interior it's largely empty. The book inside still refers to Neommaeor. This can be removed without a second's thought.

I don't care that much about the bakery and storehouse. People live in this city, it seems logical to feed them, even (especially) if it's a holy place. Don't want people to starve. Whether a bakery is appropriate I don't know, and I really don't care about the storage. The weaponsmith, maybe. Whatever. Morrowind is a dangerous place full of bandits in caves, pilgrims might want the means to defend themselves. Two blacksmiths sounds a bit excessive, but I would certainly have replaced overly imperial items because these traders aren't foreign in my plans.

The bigger issue are the Imperial Guilds though. While I like them being here from a gameplay perspective (to bring non-Temple players to Necrom) I get Adan's point about them being inappropriate. I guess I don't really care about this issue either, since if we want to keep them I'd happily NPC them, and if we want to remove them, I'll remove them. Them being inside my traders' enclave would actually be like a Mac Donald's right outside the walls of the Forbidden City, rather than inside them. Having said that, I do want to know what I am to do with them. Also remember that I am not an exterior modder, and I do not feel comfortable changing whatever needs to be changed myself (the guilds would leave an awefully big hole if I just deleted their exteriors) so someone else will have to do that if that is decided. I don't care what is to happen here, as long as I get to know it so I don't waste time NPCing places that will be removed.

To recap, my current plans for the "Foreign Quarter" are to not make it a foreign quarter at all. It'd be filled with Dunmer NPCs, with the Guildmasters being Dunmer too. I refer to it as the traders' exclave in dialogue but that is (of course) not set in stone. The reason for these shops being here and not in the city proper would simply be because the city proper is holy, and thus not a place for commerce.

So, do I just go on NPCing this place, or do we want to change the traders' exclave?

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:12 pm

I am leaning towards axeing the foreign quarter, but I think more people really should respond to this, as it is the most immediately relevant discussion going on at TR.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:21 pm

I think it would make more sense if the silt strider landing could be moved to the area west of the Temple courtyard, as that courtyard really is a central nexus for getting to the Charnelworks, Old City and the Fane itself.

I added a small garden and shrine area to that location at the behest of Adan, but I feel such a garden would be better suited on the island where the foreign quarter used to be.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:22 pm

As long as the area can be filled with relevant stuff staying true to the lore on Necrom I'm fine with changing it, as long as we don't tread down the road of "hey let's redo the entire fucking landscape as well".

Why · Post by **Why** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:30 pm

For the record, I tried importing and exporting NPC and Dialogue data yesterday, and concluded that I should easily be able to continue working on this while someone else does landscaping. Do not worry about any potential changes to the city's exterior delaying NPCing.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:38 pm

If you remove the "FQ" or "Trading Plaza" or w/e it's called now, you are left with a really long bridge, which we had originally. This long bridge is the entire reason why we removed the town of Neaommoaer or whatever and moved it here and turned it into the Foreign Quarter. (That's why there were shacks in the first place, in case some of you could never figure it out.)

I kind of liked the long bridge, but it was also kind of 'moddy'. Modder Beware.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:57 pm

Cathartis wrote:I think it would make more sense if the silt strider landing could be moved to the area west of the Temple courtyard, as that courtyard really is a central nexus for getting to the Charnelworks, Old City and the Fane itself.

I added a small garden and shrine area to that location at the behest of Adan, but I feel such a garden would be better suited on the island where the foreign quarter used to be.

I agree completely. This lay-out is superior in every sense. The garden works for better on the scenic island overlooking the bay and the strider would sit very neatly west of the temple (an otherwise useless area now.)

This is actually almost a necessity, I realized. We obviously wouldn't be naming the entire island cell if there were nothing but a strider landing. However, in that case, the travel dialogue wouldn't list 'Necrom' but 'Region Name' as the location.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:56 am

Okay, so we got 7 interiors left for Necrom's Old City. Here are the suggestions (which I'm creating the claims for as I speak). Numbers relate to the Old City map posted earlier.

12: Hall of Pallbearers and Sweeps: The Pallbearers are the guys who transport bodies across the causeway bridge in day-long processions. The Sweeps are the caretaker guild for the catacombs
13: Hall of Penitence. Basically a place where those who have committed wrongdoing to go and work and repent for forgiveness.
14: Waiting Gate: a large-scale version of a waiting door for the city. a place for people to leave offerings to the ancestors protecting the city, and ask for their guidance
15: A bakery where temple sanctified bread is baked using bonemeal
21: Temple run outfitter, sells native armour, weapons, cheap native clothes, almsivi intervention scrolls
20: Temple run potion store, sells consecrated versions of native alcohols, greef and something else, same price as normal but slightly longer effect durations
26: Guard tower

There's some controversy over whether the bonemeal bakery is a good idea, so alternatives for the place are definitely welcome.

So I'm going to leave this post here for a day or so, then I'm going to start unlocking the claims if nobody complains.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:00 am

We will not including a bonemeal bakery in this mod. The point of redoing Necrom is to increase quality, not decrease it.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:17 am

Short answer: No

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Seriously though. I don't much care for the idea of turning the dunmer into ritualistic cannibals. This is an absolutely terrible idea.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:58 am

Forgive my ignorance, but the bonemeal bakery caught my attention. I'm curious.

[TF Edit: There used to be some other posts, but I moved them to admin because this is an incredibly relevant thread that doesn't need a giant angry tumor]

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:58 pm

I had some ideas for a new necrom int if I'm not too late:
1. The house of grief (a better name will be needed): This is the place where dunmer can come if they need tribunal related psychologic support. Temple priests will support and comfort the visitors.
2. Shrine to tribunal (and their saints): It's not really related to the death theme, but related to the tribunal.
3. Maybe a shrine related to the good daedra or the victims of the daedra.
4. An office for the construction of dunmer graves or enlargment of dunmer graves. The office belongs to the temple or is at least controlled by the temple.

Nalin · Post by **Nalin** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:01 pm

How about a meeting house/room for spirits - ones who want to make contact but have no living relatives or something along those lines.

An office for the construction of dunmer graves or enlargment of dunmer graves. The office belongs to the temple or is at least controlled by the temple.

I assume you mean tombs, blackbird. This sounds like an obvious place to have if we don't already have something like it.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:02 pm

I meant tombs. Thank you for corecting me!

You're idea is also good.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:12 pm

I like the idea of a Hall of [Necrom Catacombs] Architects (Archifexes? Artifects? Artifice?), it's just how such an interior could be implemented. If someone can come up with an idea on how such an interior could be awesome, magical and above all, interesting, I'll put it up.

Also, I like Nalin's idea. We already have a Waiting Gate as a place where the living can commune with their ancestors and ask things of them. Not sure how we can make this one different enough, but I'm sure it's possible.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:03 pm

With regards to the Artifects, how about if they are a group of Temple priestmages who use sound magic/holy music to resonate and crack the rock that needs tunneling into? Why had a couple of additional ideas with regards to this:

(6:50:54 PM) Why: maybe Sotha Sil thought them how to make the Catacombs expand themselves?
(6:51:09 PM) Why: they'd just need to initiate the sacred rites to trigger it

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:20 pm

That sounds awesome, Cat. The idea of using music as a mining tool seems like something that would belong in an ES game (loud-ass Nord screamers notwithstanding.)

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:25 am

Okay, the last interior of Necrom's old city needs getting up soon as we have a good idea for it.

On that respect, I talked with Why and he came up with the idea of #15 being a Hospice for dying relatives of the local poor to be tended to by Temple healers and priests during their last days.

I quite like this idea, so I'll give some time for any objections, modifications or comments, and then assuming nothing comes up, I'll create the claim and pretty much all will be sorted on the Necrom interiors front

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:53 am

That's a really depressing idea.

blackbird · Post by **blackbird** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:07 pm

I think it's a good idea for the incurable and soon to decaese Dunmer. I only wonder why potions or magic spells aren't working.
What does the mainland temple do with the few victims of the corprus disease? Will they be sent to Tel Fyr?

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:47 pm

Corprus is non-fatal so it probably has no bearing on Necrom.

Why · Post by **Why** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:22 am

I was going to post this as an update in my claim thread, but since I realize my twisted sense of humor and irony isn't exactly quality PR material and there's bound to be a few lurkers keeping tabs on any Necrom progress they can find (I sure did, before I decided to showcase), I decides to post this here instead.

I haven't made as much progress as I'd have liked, due to a busy time at uni, the recent passing away of my uncle and a deterioration of my father's health. I will probably not be able to make the Friday deadline because that's when my uncle's funeral will be. I realize this claim is top priority, but I do want to continue working on it (as morbid as this may sound, the recent abundance of death in my life is at least providing ample inspiration for this claim) and I'll have a proper update for you guys in the not too distant future. While physical progress is somewhat lacking the conceptualization of the athmosphere and certain NPCs is actually progressing nicely even though it is hard to share in an update.

Do not worry about me, I'll be fine. And don't worry that this will impact the quality of the claim in the end. Modding is a nice distraction and I'll be sure to notify you guys if I'm unable to work on it at a sufficient level of quality.

I hope this post doesn't upset or shock anyone. This has all been playing for a while now and I guess it has jaded me to a point where I can just accept the situation, take things as they come and live my own life alongside it, but I imagine it can be shocking to read, and for that I'm sorry - I'm not one for subtlety at times like these, and rather than making blanket statements like "because of my personal situation" or "due to unfortunate events in my family" I decided you guys should know what's really going on so that you don't have to speculate about the state the claim is in.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:30 am

Take the time you need; personal life trumps modding, and we can't be upset at your absence when it's due to something like this. The claim will remain under your name, no worries.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:44 am

Hey guys.

I've mostly slipped into the shadows as of late. But I wanted to chime in what I think from the perspective of someone who built the exterior of the city. I know it's kinda awkward for me to disappear for a long time and then just chime in like this (necro'ing), but from time to time I like to drop in and put in my two cents while keeping tabs on the project.

Now I'm not the one to put myself down and my own work, but for the sake of the project I think several things need to be looked at. Necrom has gone through leaps and bounds, but TR's standards are rising and it would be a shame if somehow Necrom fell through and was overshadowed by say...Nemon's work with Lan Orethan or something.

First off, I mentioned those walls I put on the cliff on the path leading to Necrom. I underestimated the scale of those walls. They look really retarded, and I suggest we get rid of them. I'm surprised they're still there. They should be removed. I playtested the latest version and they're uber-fugly. Oversized, and kinda f**ks with the continuity of the terrain.

I really liked what you did to "FQ Island". This could be a place of reflection or mourning away from the city. Maybe a statue or shrine or something.

The temple now. The temple itself is pretty good, but the area surrounding it looks a bit meh. I know Necrom needs to have a sense of sobriety to it but it's looking way too empty. Idk. If it's the way it is at this point, I don't think I should be second guessing you guys, but the way I saw the temple was something that I rushed towards the late-stages of building the city. I put alot of thought into plotting the Charnelworks and Upper District, and the tiny finishing touches of it make it look good.

However I still dont think that temple entrance thingy is at its' full potential. The towers and oversized velothi entrances look a little half-assed. I really shoulda playtested because they...just don't feel right. Also I don't like how the walls are obscuring the actual temple from certain parts of the city. It should be a landmark visible to all. The whole complex in front of it really takes away from it IMO.

Also, having the silt strider exit directly at the temple grounds doesn't feel right. I know it leans towards the pilgrimns being able to access the temple easily, but...I dunno. Again it just doesn't feel right to me.

SO here is my PROPOSED solution. Feel free to make of it what you will, or ignore it completely. These changes should be minor and not delay further Sacred East. But again, quality over quantity. If anything I can volunteer what little spare time I have left to make these changes.

There are several posts earlier outlining the concern of the causeway, and its' length and moddiness. I think my proposal is a good compromise between length and continuity. I think what should be done is either axe or move the siltstrider to "FQ Island".

We can then move the causeway to the south where the siltstrider currently is. And we can remove the bridge to the island from the west. Leave the bridge that connects it to the charnel works, or just make a land connection with no bridge. This would mean the new causeway is shorter, but still one continuous bridge. Something I really envisioned with the pilgrims having direct access to the temple.

The only thing I'm still stumped on is the temple grounds. I think the interior work for the passageway to the temple is really nice, but I think we should have an actual exterior ramp that goes up to it. Lack of meshes should have never been an excuse for me. We can repurpose the interior (I have no clue how, but we can try) for something else if we choose to go this path.

[img]http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9042/necromplan.jpg[/img]

I hope I'm not overstepping myself here, especially after a long absence and the fact that SE is progressing, but for the sake of this wonderful project, I think Necrom can still be made even better. These are simply just suggestions. Let's brainstorm this guys.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:48 am

10 seconds in the CS and I think it finally hit me. (Sorry for the double post)

The issue I [personally] find with the temple area is that it's too boxed in. I underestimated the scaling when I was quickly snapping the walls/towers together. Now looking back I regret using oversized velothi doorjambs and entrances in the "temple pathway" (that massive complex before the temple). The solution is to make the temple more open, while still making the actual area of the grounds smaller (as you can see the temple awkwardly sticks out too far south still. It was worse before though.)

The quickest and easiest way to push forward with this IMO would be to simply move the huge complex one notch down. This would put it on the gateway separating the Charnelworks and Temple Grounds. This would free up a shizload of working area. I reclaimed about an extra half-cell worth of space just by doing this because it allowed me to move the temple further north. Not only that, but the area feels much less boxed in while further reducing the space Necrom takes up. The temple area no longer juts out awkwardly to the south, and the general shape of the city itself looks cleaner. Also this would save the work of the interior of that massive complex in front of the temple. The temple itself is also much more visible to the rest of the city, and the view entering the causeway looks alot better. It remains elevated over the gardens, and I figure I'm just gonna put a ramp from the gardens to the temple.

The causeway too has been moved to the temple area (I couldn't justify the entrance into nowhere, the area's too significant. The causeway length is short, but continous which forms a good compromise methinks.

Now all that needs to be done is cleaning up the gardens, and walls. I'll have another pic to describe later (I'll edit this post).

I think this is very reasonable and do-able. Let me know if you guys agree, or if I'm talking hogwash.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:54 am

I will kill you.

Scamp · Post by **Scamp** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:32 am

No, I disagree with changing the Necrom exterior.

Nemon did not make the Lan Orethan.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:43 am

I am unable to formulate a response to the substance of your proposal due to the fact that the idea of redoing the exterior of necrom again sends me into a foaming rage.

Post by **Swiftoak** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Nemon did not make the Lan Orethan.

Ack, you're right. Have I really been gone that long?

As for the opposition, I didn't mean re-doing. Nothing would need to be done to any interior, it would simply be just moving some stuff around in the Temple area only. IDK if you guys see it, but I personally find issue with the layout. It looks fine in the CS, but when playtested it just doesn't seem right. Maybe I'm just going crazy. I understand there is going to be frustration for suggesting further tinkering, but something less vague than "I will kill you" and pure rage would be nice to hear.

I see this as something I could do in a few days to a week. The Charnelworks and High Districts would remain completely untouched. Ditto with the temple interior.

No?

....

Okay I'll shaddap now

Sorry.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:26 pm

The wall along the approach road to Necrom I could support removing, it's ugly and blocks the awesome view across the bay of the city. I don't particularly like the other changes, and I wouldn't want to see any more exterior changes to Necrom until the NPCs have been completed, as that would mean yet more delays.

Scamp · Post by **Scamp** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:45 pm

If we remove the wall then I will cry in a corner for three weeks.

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:33 am

The wall was added to hide some unsightliness of the path along the water. If the wall is removed, the path will likely need to be reworked. Or we could just make the wall much smaller/shorter.

But I'm against doing more work to Necrom.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:23 pm

No more exterior work. If someone finds time to voluntarily do some changes that make stuff better than by all means upload it for consideration.