Vision and restrictions: a proposal

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Adanorcil
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Vision and restrictions: a proposal

Post by Adanorcil »

A while ago I was asked -or took it upon myself- to design a new Telvanni questline. I’ve already taken more than my due time with that task. Before I go into describing the result of that (which will require some discussion of its own), I would first like to hold an important related debate. Designing these quests has proven to be quite the undertaking, because to do it right (which we all want here at TR) it involves a lot more than simply coming up with things to keep the player busy.

It’s all too easy to reduce quests to that: “We’ve already built the world and now the player still needs something to do in it.â€Â￾ I suspect and also expect that no one reading this will subscribe to so simplistic a view. Quests, we all understand, is where it gets serious. Quests are the single biggest factor in our portrayal of the intellectual property we are adopting and expanding. In other words: we have to do this right. We want to do this right.

Years ago now, Bethesda Softworks tried to get it right, at least within the boundaries of what financing and producers allowed them to do. There wasn’t enough staff and enough money to make all of Morrowind real. This means they had to make choices, such as having the player interact only with characters that happened to be on Vvardenfell, even if their organization wasn’t restricted to the area. All of that can be pardoned on the basis of the situational constraints I mentioned.

In our attempt to get it right –or righter, even– at TR, we also have certain constraints. However, we are currently needlessly subjecting the project and our vision for it to a self-imposed restriction. Enough introduction, then. What I want to question here is the strict division between the 'vanilla' Vvardenfell and the modded mainland that TR has been trying to adhere to for many years, often to its own detriment. Not just for the sake of questioning it, but because I am convinced that a different approach is beyond any doubt the right course of action for this project.

I will give you all a number of strong arguments against the current method and in favor of a new policy. I will also try to show you that any practical objections to it are trivial and could remedied easily. My examples here will be applied to the case of the Telvanni questline, but can obviously be extrapolated to other other aspects of the project in due time, each with their own particularities. For now, allow me to explain the issue with the help of this one topic.


What does the current method really give us?


To not make this post any longer than strictly necessary, I will strive for brevity in the remainder of this post. First of all I want you all to consider what the current division in a 'Vvardenfell' and a 'mainland' Telvanni branch gives us in the way of advantages:
  • It leaves the vanilla game untouched.
  • To a certain extent, it prevents conflicts with other mods that affect the vanilla quests.
What does the current method get wrong?

Regardless of those two advantages that I will come to discuss later on, what are the problems with our current approach?
  • It creates an artificial, transparent and inexplicable division in an entity that is obviously meant to be a single whole, i.e. a 'house'.
  • It creates awkward and constrained dialogue and quest ideas/solutions.
  • The division is by default extremely transparent. Even a newcomer to the series can see that this is a handy cop-out solution, rather than a narrative-motivated choice. It will always feel like an emergency solution.
  • From a 'lore' perspective, the division is entirely ludicrous. The whole idea of a Dunmer House is a clan of people who play by similar rules (or lack thereof) with a similar aesthetic. Any arguments that Telvanni are disparate by nature are missing the point. The quarantine idea was never true in the first place. The Inner Sea is in many places less wide than the distance between two Telvanni towns in the vanilla game.
  • Most importantly, though, by establishing this division we gravely disrespect two things: 1) our own project's vision and 2) the intellectual property we are working with. By 1), I mean that the goal of TR is to make Morrowind the way Bethesda would have if they had had the time. Clearly, the idea was a single house. Therefore, we also disrespect 2), by introducing an ugly and unmotivated change into the ideas that went in the original game we all loved.
So recap what you're saying here.

What I'm saying is that TR is getting its priorities majorly wrong in this matter. So far, we plotted the course we are going on the basis of trivial practical concerns listed above. (And trivial they are, which I will demonstrate later.) In making this decision, we are ignoring a host of other arguments that play a far larger factor in the vision of our project. I have said it a number of times by now: we all want to get it right. If we want to get it right, we need to do some reconsidering first.


What are you suggesting exactly?

Rather simple, in fact: that we reconsider the entire idea of a 'mainland' Telvanni branch and instead build a single, unified House Telvanni which incorporates both our material and vanilla material.


Woah. That's unthinkable! The levee will break! The hen won't lay! The cock won't crow! Babies will be born butt-first for seven unspeakable years!

That's alright, really. All silliness set aside, I understand this is probably something of an uncanny idea at first. Yes, we will be doing what we have long considered a cardinal sin. We will be touching the vanilla game and we will be changing it.

Rest assured, however, that I wouldn't be putting this idea forward if I thought even for a second that it would mean an insurmountable obstacle for the project. In many of the other fields of our mod, we've already come to realize that feverishly clinging to ancient, ill-conceived ideas was holding us back more than anything. Rethinking them often gave us a noticeably superior product and not rarely an increase in productivity, with an exciting and clear goal in sight.

I'm sure there's a number of valid concerns about this proposal. I will dedicate the rest of this post to addressing those concerns to the best of my abilities.


"We are touching the original game. Some players might not appreciate that. It might create conflicts."

There is an exceedingly straightforward solution to all these practical concerns: the questline is simply a modular .esp file. That is, the TR master files contains the land, the people, miscellaneous quests and what not, but the new TR Telvanni House that over-arches Vvardenfell and the mainland, is optional.

This way, people who want to see the mainland, but do not want any changes to vanilla can choose that option. The mainland exists for them, with a fair deal of challenges, but the vanilla Telvanni questline stays intact. People who do want a new, far superior questline simply have to install one more file. Perhaps in time a skilled programmer could even create an automated installer for this purpose. People playing the new overarching questline that already have a rank in the old vanilla faction should obviously be given a means of transferring their rank when installing the new faction (if they want to).


"It would create a massive PR crisis."

I'd wager to say this will not be an issue at all. People turn to TR because they expect quality and that is exactly what we are trying to achieve. Also, nobody will be disappointed by a greater amount of quests, especially if they are far superior even to the vanilla game. The result could blow their minds. I think the audience will also understand that the modular solution is a more than fair system, which many other big mods would not bother to implement.


"It would mean an enormous amount of extra work."

This is mostly an illusion. Any of the -slightly disorganized- work on the original Telvanni questline will have to be severely reconsidered at any rate, though the plan is to recuperate salvageable material. I owe a lot of gratitude to Why, who has already given me some great advice in these matters. Similarly, we can also recuperate worthwhile material from the vanilla quests to integrate it into the whole. On the other hand, nobody will mind missing out on one or two gofer quests. Either way, we will have to make new material, but the overall effort will not be significantly greater, with a significantly better result.



I will invite you all to sit back and digest this information for a while. Mull it over a bit, then give me your thoughts.
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Post by immortal_pigs »

All I want out of the Telvanni questline is a great story with interesting characters and meaningful motivations beyond "guy that hates the Temple". Besides that, I want it to follow from a predesigned coherent and organized plan, without being restricted by whatever is currently in place in the "physical" plain; i.e. if an interior implies the inhabitant is x, but the design designates the character as y, then the interior should be adapted to the design rather then the design adapted to the interior.

If including the mainland is necessary to crafting a great experience then I have no reason to object to it.

I'm not all that lore savvy, but from my point of view important characters should be meaningful and reflect on the idea of the Telvanni as a whole (I lack the lore knowledge to be able to describe what that idea is). I don't think a character like Vaerin or Rathra says the right thing about the Telvanni, while I think a character like Dral does. Anyway, I think the experience should be character driven, as that is in my opinion the best way to communicate what the Telvanni are and what they are about.
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Post by Stryker »

To me it's a good idea. Cutting the mainland off from Vvardenfell always felt a little bad to me. But I understood it from the 'no conflicts' point of view. I don't see any reason why having the Telvanni line on a seperate file should cause any particular problems... Not like it'll be hard to get for anyone who wants it.

Not totally related but from my understanding, this method will only be used for the Telvanni line? Now I'll make a note that I don't know all that much lore-wise so maybe this all irrelevant to begin with, but if we don't have other houses/guilds or quests connected to Vvardenfell as well, wouldn't it seem odd for the Telvanni to be the only ones like that?

That question aside, I think it's a good idea. It could be interesting with the right quest plan.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

My main stance is, I'd absolutely love to do this. It's what I imagined when I first heard about TR, and vaguely what my Census and Excise mod is heading towards.

The .esp solution is an excellent fix to the main obvious concern here, and one I hadn't even considered heretofore.

A few other issues still stand, but the .esp thing actually makes the whole process a lot more feasible.

Here are some problems that need thinking about:

Problem 1: Telvanni aside, what about the other factions who won't be fully in play until an NPCd Dres is released? Do we just hold off all work on spread-out factions until the entire landmass is in place?

Problem 2: If we're gonna do it, we have to do it right. TES3 is already a self-contained, complete game. House Telvanni is a self-contained, complete faction (as is every other faction). As an example, dialogue referring to Archmagister Gothren would probably have to be removed - unless we want to keep Gothren as Archmagister? But then what about the Telvanni Council House - it only has room for Vvardenfell Mouths? What about factions like the Mages Guild which pay some retconny lip service to two Archmages? Somewhere along the line, serious restructuring needs to be done if we want to do it properly - that could be a lot of work, in addition to the provision of new material (which I agree is less hard than it seems).
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

I am of the opinion that the distinction between Vvardenfel and the mainland for the imperial guilds is actually ok. Trebonius refers to the archmage of almalexia, and rather than being well established political forces, the imperial guilds in morrowind are not well established. It makes more sense for them to be split between civilized morrowind and frontier vvardenfel.

Dialog and quests would probably have to be reworked for more than just our side of the telvanni equation. As always, progression will have to be slowed and perhaps more ranks added. This also affects the main quest unless we want to go with a copout of the mainland councilors saying they will abstain in Vvardenfel related matters.
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Post by Why »

Thrignar Fraxix wrote:...perhaps more ranks added.
Just a technical note, but the maximum amount of ranks for any faction is hardcoded and capped at ten. edited to sound less dramatic.

I am pretty okay with this. I've never really had a big issue with the division TR-Vvfell as I'm more of a gameplay-oriented person, but merging the vanilla and TR questlines sounds exciting and I believe it will improve the storytelling. I see no insurmountable obstacles.
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Post by Andres Indoril »

Why, it is possible to have factions have a faction in different groups as a high-ranking faction and the lower-ranks in a different faction, but that presents other problems.


Overall, I very much agree with unifying Vvardenfell and whatever lies on the other side of the Inner Sea. No bridges though. :P
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Sounds like a great idea. :] Slowly but surely, each bad idea from the birth of TR is getting removed.

As a technical issue, would multiple ESPs affecting the same NPCs have any problems?
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Post by Katze »

I think something like this is a very smart move.

Factions that don't have holdings or interest in Vvardenfell such as Indoril or Dres would be fine to include in the main .esm, so it's not like those who don't want to use the optional .esps would have to miss out on all the cool faction questlines we're adding.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

Cathartis wrote:it's not like those who don't want to use the optional .esps would have to miss out on all the cool faction questlines we're adding.
And I wouldn't be surprised if said people were almost entirely fictitious anyway
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Post by Adanorcil »

Not totally related but from my understanding, this method will only be used for the Telvanni line? Now I'll make a note that I don't know all that much lore-wise so maybe this all irrelevant to begin with, but if we don't have other houses/guilds or quests connected to Vvardenfell as well, wouldn't it seem odd for the Telvanni to be the only ones like that?
Like I said I would only be using this one as an example here. Naturally this discussion also extends to other factions such as the Redoran and the Hlaalu. Other factions such as the Imperial guilds and the Temple should be looked at separately, but I think they could get an elegant solution that doesn't necessarily require us to cross over into the mainland. It's primarily the great Houses that rub severely against the grain in this regard.

The Indoril and Dres naturally can be included in the main .esm, since they don't have any direct ties to Vvardenfell. On the other hand, it may not be an entirely bad thing for some of their quests to at least send the player over to Vvardenfell (after all, it's not like they've never heard of the place). But I suppose that's an issue we can investigate in due time.

Telvanni aside, what about the other factions who won't be fully in play until an NPCd Dres is released? Do we just hold off all work on spread-out factions until the entire landmass is in place?


This is more or less what we have to do now anyway, right? It would make most sense to start of with factions that are crucial to the look and feel of our mod (e.g. Great Houses, Temple, etc.) and then continue with ill-adapted foreign factions that parasitize on Morrowind (Fighters, Mages, etc.). Perhaps somewhere in the near future we could hold a discussion on how we plan to implement various factions?
If we're gonna do it, we have to do it right. TES3 is already a self-contained, complete game. House Telvanni is a self-contained, complete faction (as is every other faction). As an example, dialogue referring to Archmagister Gothren would probably have to be removed - unless we want to keep Gothren as Archmagister? But then what about the Telvanni Council House - it only has room for Vvardenfell Mouths?

Gothren would indeed be demoted, since Dral is beyond a doubt the most badass of the Telvanni. (This is all that archmagister means anyway.) As for the council house, that is a small change we could also incorporate in the modular .esp. We can simply relocate the original Mouths to the council hall at Port Telvannis and give the original building in Sadrith Mora a small redestination or remove it altogether. That would probably be the only small change to Vvardenfell architecture we'd have to do.
What about factions like the Mages Guild which pay some retconny lip service to two Archmages?
See below.
I am of the opinion that the distinction between Vvardenfel and the mainland for the imperial guilds is actually ok. Trebonius refers to the archmage of almalexia, and rather than being well established political forces, the imperial guilds in morrowind are not well established. It makes more sense for them to be split between civilized morrowind and frontier vvardenfel.

Yeah, those don't feel wrong either way.

Dialog and quests would probably have to be reworked for more than just our side of the telvanni equation.
I thought about this too, but I was relieved to have Why announce that, save the main quest councillor business, the interactions between the vanilla Telvanni and other factions in fact number, well... zilch. The only quest that seems vaguely contradictory is something where both the MG and the Telvanni send you to retrieve some Dwemer sketches and even then it's only illusion, since they in fact have you looking for similarly named items with different IDs.

As always, progression will have to be slowed and perhaps more ranks added.
This is true. Though, on a related note, I have to say I wouldn't mind making gaining a rank slightly more meaningful than it used to be. In the original game, you could more or less breeze through the ranks easily (I became head of Hlaalu at level 5 the other day) and the ranks therefore feel awfully trivial. Either way, I have accommodated for this problem in my plans for the Telvanni quest.
This also affects the main quest unless we want to go with a copout of the mainland councilors saying they will abstain in Vvardenfel related matters.
I had thought about this too and I figured that while we had a modular .esp, we might as well include the mainland councilors in the main quest. I hadn't thought of having them abstain yet, though. All things considered, that doesn't even strike me as so much of an inelegant solution. After all, it's not like visiting every one of those councillors is particularly great fun and easily doubling their number would only make that worse. Perhaps it's an idea we could look into.

From a lore side of things, this does suddenly put the Nerevarine in an entirely different perspective. In the original game, he is the Hortator, who once again unites and rallies the Houses of Morrowind. (Those available anyway.) In our version, he would be reduced to a sorry shadow of the original Nerevar, where two Houses including his own (Indoril and Dres) don't care and the other three only care partially. Perhaps this could be bent into meaningfulness of its own, or perhaps we need a different solution.

but merging the vanilla and TR questlines sounds exciting and I believe it will improve the storytelling.
That's exactly what I'm hoping for.
As a technical issue, would multiple ESPs affecting the same NPCs have any problems?
This is a technical issue that I'm not certain about, but whenever a thing like this happens, I reckon the game would default to the more recent of the two files. Either way, I think we should discipline ourselves to make sure something like this simply doesn't happen.


And I wouldn't be surprised if said people were almost entirely fictitious anyway
So many years after the original game, that's my opinion too. But I suppose it never harms to please as many people as possible.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Adanorcil wrote:This is more or less what we have to do now anyway, right? It would make most sense to start of with factions that are crucial to the look and feel of our mod (e.g. Great Houses, Temple, etc.) and then continue with ill-adapted foreign factions that parasitize on Morrowind (Fighters, Mages, etc.). Perhaps somewhere in the near future we could hold a discussion on how we plan to implement various factions?
To an extent, but what I mean is that at what point do we take the step where we rip people out of Vvardenfell/adjust their quests - we can't really do that before our faction's ready to be made complete, so what do we do about building our own quests in the meanwhile? Presumably we'd be fine to carry on including just the filler quests at the generic faction bases, but then they ought to be part of the faction .esp rather than the main .esm. So it seems that doing no work on multi-map factions until Dres is released might be the only solution.
Gothren would indeed be demoted, since Dral is beyond a doubt the most badass of the Telvanni. (This is all that archmagister means anyway.) As for the council house, that is a small change we could also incorporate in the modular .esp. We can simply relocate the original Mouths to the council hall at Port Telvannis and give the original building in Sadrith Mora a small redestination or remove it altogether. That would probably be the only small change to Vvardenfell architecture we'd have to do.
Those are just two examples, and as you indicate rather easy ones to resolve. But there will be a lot of little things like this to think about. And what about more complex issues like e.g. the number of councillors present on Vvardenfell - Beth will have obviously included more than were necessary in order to make their factions complete - if we keep them, we'll have a potentially ridiculous surplus. This could involve the removal of multiple councillors, and that in turn needs a lot of existing dialogue and the like to be modified. Again, I don't object to this amount of work, just think we need to acknowledge that we need to be ready for it; nor should we shy away from doing it just because it'd be less work - that's not an acceptable option given that we're now taking this larger step. Like I say, if we're gonna do it, we ought to do it right, not with half-measures.

As a technical issue, would multiple ESPs affecting the same NPCs have any problems?
This is a technical issue that I'm not certain about, but whenever a thing like this happens, I reckon the game would default to the more recent of the two files. Either way, I think we should discipline ourselves to make sure something like this simply doesn't happen.
I think the simpler solution would be to have rather than one .esp per faction, instead one .esp covering all of our changes to vanilla.
And I wouldn't be surprised if said people were almost entirely fictitious anyway
So many years after the original game, that's my opinion too. But I suppose it never harms to please as many people as possible.
I think you guys would be surprised. House Telvanni on its own is one of the most popularly modded factions, and here at TR I don't know that we really have many avid mod users amongst us - I for one don't use anything apart from LGNPC and a few other low key things. (tho wait - I'd probably have to sacrifice LGNPC for TR now as well!) So we're not necessarily the best judges of what people who actively use mods use.
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Post by Myzel »

I think this is a good idea in principle. I'm a little worried about what this means for progress in this regard though, since I'm not really convinced this is less hard than it seems. When the landscape modders can finally say 'we're done', everybody on the forums will cross their arms and watch the questers starting on map 4. The quest department isn't exactly stacked with modders I believe.

Though if you'll do this with Telvanni, the other houses and the temple can't be left out. The imperial guilds can easily remain separate I think.

I also believe the Nerevarine mainquest should be left completely untouched. The only alternative for me would be to completely rewrite it to include all of Morrowind. Extending only the hortator quest to include the mainland doesn't make all that much sense and would make for an annoyingly long quest. I for one can easily see the Dres and Indoril not caring to choose a Hortator. After all, they aren't bothered by the troubles on Vvardenfell directly and at that point in the game the Nerevarine is still considered a false prophet.
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Post by Bloodthirsty Crustacean »

Myzel wrote:I think this is a good idea in principle. I'm a little worried about what this means for progress in this regard though, since I'm not really convinced this is less hard than it seems. When the landscape modders can finally say 'we're done', everybody on the forums will cross their arms and watch the questers starting on map 4. The quest department isn't exactly stacked with modders I believe.
I think this is a good point worth considering. The quest department has often been neglected by the rest of TR, and it's a lot harder to get people to work for it. What happens when everything else is done (to the extent that we do have to wait for later releases to be finished before beginning) and its only questers left in active service? Will everyone else get bored, drop off, and then questing's inevitable slowness cause the project to die at the last hurdle? I would hope that the releases previous would be able to draw in at least a few more capable questers/planners with enthusiasm and dedication, but going by the track record, it's really down to individual personalities and luck rather than a reliable stream of contributors.
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Post by Theo »

I would also like to add my 2 cents to this. As I was active in questing map 1 I could experience the great pain of the chaotic quest implementation and opted for some overarching quest plan.

My idea was to begin with the major quest lines, then add smaller factions and misc. quests and then add filler NPCs so that the quest maker had entirely free hand (he could create NPC and populate interiors to his own liking) and that the filler NPC and interiors could be made interesting on their own without risk that they will have to be altered due to some later implemented quest.

Now this is approximately how Bethesda did Morrowind, but I was convinced by other core members that it would slow progress too much. That, I see now, is partially right.

Seeing now that quest making is the most difficult, tedious and time consuming part of the project, I would go for a compromise.

While NPCing and misc. questing can be done during detailing of the maps major questlines should be planned in advance and implemented after all 6 maps are finished (at least exterior and interior wise) and merged into one file.

Seeing that almost no major map 1 (screw the map division anyway) quest are not yet done, while already map 3 is already being NPCed it should not be such a big delay. There will be a ton of map 3 misc quests for that few TR quest makers to implement soon.

Meanwhile an overarching plan for house quests can be planned in detail. The major quests SHOULD be planned and designed "from roof to basements".

Now I know that some people are opposed to the idea of "The Main Quest", but they are wrong. An overarching quest is what makes a mod feel like a compact game.

Very few players did finish all Vvardenfell factions, even less did finish all misc. quests (it is impossible at one playthrough). Almost everybody finished the main quest and defeated Dagoth Ur.

The main quest was so designed in TES III, that while following it, player did encounter and joined various important factions, locations in the game and had a chance to become more involved, whenever he was interested. It led the player through the most important places also.

Now if a main quest for TR was designed, it could introduce player to basic Morrowind politics, make him travel to the most valued towns and locations and speak with most important NPCs, while he could choose to side with different house members.

The factions should be designed with accordance to this overarching idea What is currently going on Morrowind and how do we relate to that? That will make choosing one of them more important then just choosing a bunch of unrelated quests. (I mean great houses and Tribunal Temple. Imperial guilds (FG, TG, MG + IL, IC + EEC, IAS...) should only have small impact on the outcome of Morrowind politics and theirs conflict with major politics should be reduced to local levels. They can be designed independently of the main quest plan.

Perhaps a siding with one house or another and doing its quest line could affect the outcome of the main quest, but at least the house quests should reflect on it somehow (perhaps with the exception of Telvanni who care the least about politics in my understanding)

There is a lot of time to plan this before an actual work can begin, so give it a thought please.
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Post by Myzel »

Theo wrote: While NPCing and misc. questing can be done during detailing of the maps major questlines should be planned in advance and implemented after all 6 maps are finished (at least exterior and interior wise) and merged into one file.

...

Now I know that some people are opposed to the idea of "The Main Quest", but they are wrong. An overarching quest is what makes a mod feel like a compact game.
So you suggest the major questlines of five great houses, the tribunal temple and a main quest should all be modded after the mainland is done.
A main quest would make the scope of questing even greater and actually waiting for the mainland to be finished would make my worries (elaborated correctly by BC) even more pressing.
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Post by Haplo »

My post does not address Theo's post, as the following was typed before I read his post.
Bloodthirsty Crustacean wrote:
And I wouldn't be surprised if said people were almost entirely fictitious anyway
So many years after the original game, that's my opinion too. But I suppose it never harms to please as many people as possible.
I think you guys would be surprised. House Telvanni on its own is one of the most popularly modded factions, and here at TR I don't know that we really have many avid mod users amongst us - I for one don't use anything apart from LGNPC and a few other low key things. (tho wait - I'd probably have to sacrifice LGNPC for TR now as well!) So we're not necessarily the best judges of what people who actively use mods use.
This. Telvanni is indeed the most popular faction for mods. There's even a thread or two floating around that list all the Telvanni mods available. And any such course of action where we modify the councilors heavily in Vvardenfell (or the buildings there) would completely break compatibility with Rise of House Telvanni in particularly (arguably the most popular mod), which has taken pains to be compatible with TR and also fit in well (changing NPC names to names we are using so that when playing RoHT and TR together, it seems like they're made by the same people).

While I agree that we should not go in half-assing this sort of change in direction, I also think we should choose the course of action that allows us to modify Vvardenfell stuff as little as possible.

I also agree we shouldn't touch the main quest unless we're going to rewrite the whole damn thing to play over the entire mainland, which I don't see us doing at this point (although it would be undoubtedly awesome and I'm sure would be praised by players everywhere).

Now, I think it's obvious we're going to be doing *something*, so how do we go about doing it? Factions split into multiple layers to allow for more leveling, or modifying existing (and vanilla?) factions to make leveling more challenging? Are we going to turn TR into a "modifying all of Vvardenfell to make a complete province and a more complete, more satisfying game" mod? If so, I don't think anyone could argue that we will have just doubled, if not tripled, the time required to "complete" TR.

I'm not sure about having multiple .esps for multiple faction questlines as opposed to one .esp for all the questlines, but I'm leaning toward the former at the moment.

EDIT: I missed an important mod that would be rendered incompatible: Morrowind Patch Project
Last edited by Haplo on Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Adanorcil »

To an extent, but what I mean is that at what point do we take the step where we rip people out of Vvardenfell/adjust their quests - we can't really do that before our faction's ready to be made complete, so what do we do about building our own quests in the meanwhile? Presumably we'd be fine to carry on including just the filler quests at the generic faction bases, but then they ought to be part of the faction .esp rather than the main .esm. So it seems that doing no work on multi-map factions until Dres is released might be the only solution.
A short overview of what I would suggest (loose ideas):

Telvanni/Hlaalu/Redoran: whenever the respective terrains of the factions are complete

Temple: I don't know about you guys, but to me it seems like it would be a good idea to divide the Temple quests into a number of districts, centered around the holy cities. There's already two Patriarchs (Vivec, Almalexia) and a Matriarch (Necrom) anyway. This makes me feel like there ought to be another Fane somewhere in the west. The Telvanni and the Dres obviously don't have any, the Hlaalu are more or less indifferent. Perhaps the player could simply rise in the ranks of one of those districts, potentially with a few cross-overs to the other ones? That way, the vanilla material is simply the questline for the Vvardenfell district.

Imperial guilds: Similarly, they could have local chapters, though in this case it might make more sense, to make the entire mainland one district, separating it from the frontier Vvardenfell, as TF suggested. At any rate, this is pretty much what we had in mind already, so nothing changes here.

Other guilds: Not a clear opinion on these. Have these ever been thought through thoroughly to begin with?

Overall though, I think we need to put a little though into diversifying the various factions a little. It's too easy to build all factions along a similar pattern. When gameplay wins out over narrative, we get cookie-cutter quest-reward-quest factions. Gaining ranks should ideally mean very different things in the various factions and should have no more similar than underlying mechanics that we should attempt to cover up as well as possible.

Those are just two examples, and as you indicate rather easy ones to resolve. But there will be a lot of little things like this to think about. And what about more complex issues like e.g. the number of councillors present on Vvardenfell - Beth will have obviously included more than were necessary in order to make their factions complete - if we keep them, we'll have a potentially ridiculous surplus. This could involve the removal of multiple councillors, and that in turn needs a lot of existing dialogue and the like to be modified.
Bethesda included however many they needed. Of course removing councillors would make things significantly more complex, but I for one, can't see why we would want remove perfectly good usable material. Purely number-wise, the original Telvanni and the ones TR added (with some very minor changes) are nicely balanced. This would really only needless complicate things. Sure, it will involve some dialogue changing, but all of that dialogue is strongly automatized, filterable and searchable. All of this is planning and more planning.
Again, I don't object to this amount of work, just think we need to acknowledge that we need to be ready for it; nor should we shy away from doing it just because it'd be less work - that's not an acceptable option given that we're now taking this larger step. Like I say, if we're gonna do it, we ought to do it right, not with half-measures.
Couldn't agree more: planning is everything. The one thing we need to avoid is jumping into something without thinking it through. It was perhaps the single biggest problem with the Telvanni quest to begin with.
I think the simpler solution would be to have rather than one .esp per faction, instead one .esp covering all of our changes to vanilla.

One .esp would admittedly be neater, but I do agree that -at least for now- one .esp per faction would be a lot more practical and has the added advantage of allowing people to choose what they want later on.
I think you guys would be surprised. House Telvanni on its own is one of the most popularly modded factions, and here at TR I don't know that we really have many avid mod users amongst us - I for one don't use anything apart from LGNPC and a few other low key things. (tho wait - I'd probably have to sacrifice LGNPC for TR now as well!) So we're not necessarily the best judges of what people who actively use mods use.
I'll admit I'm not an expert in these matters. However, we can look at the issue in two ways. We can either try to avoid potential conflicts, or we can try to achieve certain quality. At any rate, complete compatibility is impossible to begin with. There will always be a mod that conflict with ours. But I think everyone, including the makers of those conflicting mods, will understand and would rather that we perform to the best of our abilities than letting courtesy towards them hold us back.

At any rate, even in the process of designing quests, we can attempt to still allow for optimal compatibility. If I understand correctly, mods like LGNPC only add new dialogue or at worst make the generic dialogue less generic. As long as we simply only add dialogue and use moderation with regard to changing existing dialogue, I think we should be ok. Or a simple workaround might be to -whenever conflicts might arise- leave the original dialogue in place, but to override it with a new dialogue entry with slightly more specific filter settings (e.g. TR_TelvanniMod == 1 ).

As for individual npcs, with the exception of a handful of characters, we should not be touching much of the vanilla game to begin with. Most things can be built around, it's just a few small changes that we need to cover up the seams between vanilla and our own work.

Even then, I think we could do some work to guide people. The primary factor in not pissing people off is information. If we let people find out for themselves whether there are conflict, that's frustrating for them. If we tell them openly, that's courtesy. After this questline is done, we could easily run a few tests with other mods to see if anything arises and if there are any easy changes to prevent it.
I think this is a good idea in principle. I'm a little worried about what this means for progress in this regard though, since I'm not really convinced this is less hard than it seems. When the landscape modders can finally say 'we're done', everybody on the forums will cross their arms and watch the questers starting on map 4. The quest department isn't exactly stacked with modders I believe.
Relatively speaking, I think we're not even that bad off with questers. We already have some great questers with Stryker, BC and Why (and I am certain I forgot someone crucial, for which I offer my apologies). At any rate, a clearly outlined, well organized plan is far better for progress than an unmotivating cesspool. If done right, quest plans are exciting and I doubt there's anything more encouraging for a modder than the certainty that are currently working on something that will deeply impress people. It's what we all want, really: Here's the plans, now go make awesome.

While I agree that we should not go in half-assing this sort of change in direction, I also think we should choose the course of action that allows us to modify Vvardenfell stuff as little as possible.
I agree with this, like I said above. Apart from a few exceptions, most alterations should be in dialogue.
I also agree we shouldn't touch the main quest unless we're going to rewrite the whole damn thing to play over the entire mainland, which I don't see us doing at this point (although it would be undoubtedly awesome and I'm sure would be praised by players everywhere).
This is indeed that's simply to big. Also, it's kind of the essence of the game and therefore it seems like a nice thing to leave it alone. We can extrapolate narratives for the other factions, but the mainquest story is something that really belongs to Bethesda.
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

The vast majority of our players don't give a rat's ass about 'compatibility' on the mainland, and would rather see more integration. I'd even forgo the separate esp, since thats just more confusion. Do what you need to make the best mod possible.

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Post by Sload »

i was for this - my eventual goal was that TR would have the player start out on the mainland between kartur and andothren and have an extended mainquest that began on the mainland with a new contact in kragenmoor and ended on vvardenfell with caius cosades

the temple i wanted to have in stages - for the first stage the player went to more generic pilgrimages across the mainland (maybe only X even though there are Y so they dont have to go from veloth to deshaan etc), then they joined one of the orders (one for each tribune + ancestors, maybe -sotha sil), with vivec's being a minorly modified version of vvardenfell's temple. for these a new set of pilgrimages would be done specific to the tribune. vvardenfell's pilgrimages are already mostly vivec based iirc.

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Post by Theo »

I believe that no matter whether something like "Main Quest" will be implemented or not overall general discussion on the following topics would be useful:

1) What is currently going on in the Morrowind? (On political, religious, social and economic)? How does it relate to the current events on Vvardenfel?

There exists something like unspoken consencus on many of these issues, at least in the core, but I say: Lets write it down explicitly, stickie it and make it official lore for modders to follow (mainly for quest designers).

2) Who are the main protagonists of those events, how do great houses relate to it and how do Imperial institutions relate to it?

3) What are hopes, fears, expectations of common people? How do they relate to Nerevarine?

4) What do we want player to do on the mainland? Explore locations and play misc. quests? Make carrier in one of the great houses (much more challenging then in the original game)? Have some actual influence on the overall situtation described in point 1)?

(I would definitely go for this option. Without player having the option to shape the world around him, it´s existence in the game is justified only from the half, but that is only my preference.)

The general discussion of particular great houses should follow after this more general discussion brings its fruits. Then it will become clear what needs to be modified from the original content and what not.

Let´s finally forget maps, house territories and other divisions and begin treating Morrowind like a single entity.
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Post by Adanorcil »

I decided to let this run for a little to gather some more opinions. Since there doesn't seem to be a lot to add, I propose that we work out the Telvanni questline as a first application of the new model.

(So I will be hooking that topic up to the batteries now.)
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Post by Haplo »

So I think it is time we address, right here, whether we are ready to share this vision with the entire project. People are wanting to create forward momentum, and the only way to avoid wasting entire threads-worth of work is if everyone contributing to discussion knows what they're working with. (And don't think we can prevent people from discussing what they want to.)

Telvanni is our first foray into this plan, so I think maybe we should share what we have so far in the lore and discussion forum so that everyone can work from the same material. Consider it a declassification request under the Freedom of Information Act, TF.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

I have no preference towards declassification or not. I think it could potentially cause large problems, but I am not entirely convinced those problems aren't already here.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

In some ways, I think that keeping these sorts of discussions under wraps for prolonged periods of time are doing more harm to TR than letting these discussions out once some groundwork is established. At some point you've gotta open it up and face all the ridiculous bullcrap that will come with it.

... And also, at the moment, it probably looks like that absolutely nothing is occuring at all.

Is opening up only one of these discussions to the public really enough to be worth it?

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Post by Haplo »

Well of course while the Telvanni discussion is the one we're talking about now, eventually we will open up more as we get to those points. Right now, however, we are going one step at a time.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

There's no reason to keep it under wraps. TR is nice (and successful) because it's so open about stuff compared to a lot of other modding projects. Secrecy comes across as needlessly egotistical.
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Post by theviking »

If you really want progress in this direction, then you have to fix it in the minds of the modders and members so that everyone works to the same goals. This means opening the discussion to everyone and convincing the majority that the new direction of the Telvanni questline is good (with the same arguments that are used here).

For example, I didn't even knew these discussions had taken place and I presented an old skool Telvanni questline as a new one. To me, changing the Vvardenfeel questlines seems like a crapload of work, but I can see the value of your arguments. If we can pull it out it would be great. But we should try to minimize the work required in the Vvardenfell region because the amount of work we have to do in the mainland.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

We doin' this shit or not.

Seems to me to be a very bad sign that something as important as this can go inactive for 20 days. (even if the majority of those days are after skyrim)
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Post by Haplo »

Give me a minute bro, I have to play Skyrim.
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Post by Nemon »

Well, the release of Skyrim is pretty much a force majeure. I've logged 39 hours, and haven't achieved more than:

- getting enchanting and smithing to 100 (guess why)
- finished the college of winterhold questline, only to find there were more stuff afterwards
- done 5-6 MQ quests, now spawning dragons all the time. No problem for me and my Lydia, although three dragon skeleton corpses in Riverwindsomething looks silly.
- Done a few local quests
- Been to 75% of the province, visited 10% of the interiors

...too much to do!
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

This is fucking stupid. We've been working on SE for almost 3 years now and before we get that out the door we want to tell the world we are going to increase the scope of our vision? Lets be fucking realistic here, TR is dangerously slow at the moment.

I'm not against the idea of changing vvardenfell but I am against the idea of taking another bite when we seem to be choking on what we already have in our mouths. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that as a project we are not doing well.

How about this, we get SE out the door and see where that puts us. If we recover our old vigor then we can have this discussion then. If we don't then I think we need to have a much less desirable conversation.

Skyrim may be slowing us down at the moment, but it is far from our biggest block.
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Post by Theo »

Major setback for this progress is and always has been questing. I say, large house quest are the last thing to do. Once TR is at it, there is no reason not to make them properly, so that the whole story we want to tell would be coherent and complex and reflected what is going on in other parts of the province including Vvardenfel. Partiality and dividing by maps or releases is particularly harmful for quests.
Designing faction quest before the whole landmass is created, the political setup determined through npcs, locations and lore will inevitably lead to theirs latter revision and redesign.
So lets just forget about Telvanni for this moment.
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Post by Adanorcil »

I'm gonna agree with Theo and TF here. The issues discussed in this thread are central to the project and were brought up to mature TR to its proper intent. However, that doesn't mean they are of immediate importance.

Let's first get SE out of the door, then we will see. As Theo rightfully notes designing this sort of icing on the cake before the cake itself is done leads to inevitable miscommunication, incoherence and overall mediocrity.
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Post by Katze »

Slight aside here, but can I suggest that we make our modelling claims smaller, perhaps 1-3 models per claim? Every time a modeller claims one of them, they seem to get about half-done, and then forgotten about and either dropped or revoked. Then when the next modeller comes along, they don't want to work off what the previous claimant did because it's not how they would do things, and the cycle continues, wasting everbody's time.

Considering the differences in quality of plant models and such in the main game, it's not going to make much difference if different people work on plants in the same set, for example, and even if the difference is great, one person could easily retexture the entire set into something cohesive later on.

With regards to the editing Vvardenfell business, I wholly agree. The only factions that definitely need an integrated questline are the Great Houses, so we can do pretty much everything else without any disruption or outrage. Let's get Sacred East out of the door first and then worry about this, or things are going to get done wrongly.

Also, I apologise for being so absentee in the project as of late, but I've been really swamped with coursework and exams for my degree this academic year. I'll try and make a big effort to get the interiors department back on track in December once I'm a little freer, promise.
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Post by Tyrion »

I wanted to pop in because, as I've been away for months due to school I'm really seeing TR now in a kind of slideshow, and to me the project is starting to look like it's dieing. What is so odd about this is the fact that we've logged a huge amount of work in just the last year alone, but we have nothing else released and essentially we continue to have nothing to show for our work. This is dangerous. What we have as our current scope we have to come to terms with the reality that we cannot accomplish. I do not believe TR will release a fully quested mainlaind, period. I believe that to adapt to our current situation we need to start scaling back, not taking the project into brand new directions that will never go beyond a concept phase. When we look at what we have gotten accomplished I see we have made tremendous progress on the development of the gameworld, so let's stick with that for the moment. We need to focus on one thing at a time if we're going to get anything done. Building the gameworld is priority #1. If TR can build the mainland province and fully NPC it, including regional dialogue, than I will consider that a huge achievement, and at least we will have something that is playable to release. We will at least have something to show for the years of work we've put into this project. Instead what we have now is a SE release that's been cut down in size but is still not released because we do not have the resources available to produce a fully quested map. We haven't even been able to release a fully quested AS map. Talking about what we want to do with the Telvanni questline, or how we want to integrate into the vanilla game is, I believe, completely removed from what our immediate concerns ought to be.

edit:
Also, I'm back bitches. Where the exteriors at?
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Post by Nemon »

Tyrion wrote: Also, I'm back bitches. Where the exteriors at?
We have those...
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Post by Tyrion »

Nemon wrote:
Tyrion wrote: Also, I'm back bitches. Where the exteriors at?
We have those...
Yeah I know. I was making a ha ha
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Post by Haplo »

I don't know what you mean by an SE release that has been cut down... SE is the same size it's always been. And I think we should not worry about big game-changing things when we are focused so narrowly at the moment on finishing 2 questing claims. TR work always crests and troughs so it's not really a big surprise, especially so long since our last release. We need to get Sacred East out the door and go from there.
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Post by Not »

I was just wondering if we could finally start talking about this for real now. We've been discussing Telvanni in IRC quite a bit lately, and I figured this would be the perfect thread to actually debate and go over what we have planned so far.

We have SE out the door, and as far as the overall state of the project is concerned, we've done a complete 180. We have a shitton of questers on top of what seems like every other department which is now running smoothly.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, SE is now out the door, we're basically in a Golden Age as far as activity with this project is concerned, and I'd like to talk about getting this discussion started once more.
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