Releases

[arvisrend]

I can't contribute much to this discussion, but I'd really like to know its results. How are we going to subdivide maps 3 and 4 into releases?

As far as I understand, map 4 has been merged and several errors corrected on the merged file. This makes it infeasible to cut it in pieces and glue them together again, or is that doable (without repeating the experience of M3A4West missing cells)? So map 4 is forced to be one big release? But then probably Almas Thirr and OE should go into a separate "Thirr" release, because if we combine them with either Heartland or Almalexia, it will be too huge-ass a task in terms of NPCing?

On a different note, if M3A8 (Gorne/Enamor Dayn/Bosmora) is going to be quested before the Akamora guilds are done (which wouldn't surprise me that much -- the Mages Guild isn't even designed yet), what speaks against patching it into SE instead of waiting for Almalexia? Or are we generally avoiding this kind of small-step updating?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Prior to the addition of dialogue, it is relatively easy to cut up and paste back together any landmass. The main inconvenience is correctly partitioning the interiors between files; and after that the lesser matter of weeding out any duplicated unique objects added. But compared to dialogue messes those are relatively simple tasks.

So it should just be a matter of making those decisions, and staying ahead of the NPCing.

(Although, what happened with M3A4West?)

[arvisrend]

(Although, what happened with M3A4West?)

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=304888#304888]This.[/url]

(How it happened is a different question, and I have no idea.)

[Why]

I'd really like to be able to complete the Indoril lands in the Almalexia release. This would mean that the M3A3 ints need to be made available asap, and that they take priority over OE stuff. I understand that people want the Thirr in one release, but if you ask me completing Indoril makes more sense. It'd allow us to more easily make quest plans for the region, too.

[Haplo]

The Landscape data from cell 14,-17 in TRA4East got cleaned out accidentally, and has yet to be fixed. That's the story behind what happened there. It's not related to TRA4West.

We can split up our Map 4 file with no problems; it doesn't have NPCs or dialogue or even any real regions (something like a sunshine region applied to every cell for testing and picture taking, if anything, exists).

The original plan for the border between Heartland and Almalexia was to have ALL of the Thirr in one release. I think we last left off with having it all be in the Heartland release, and having the western edge of the Almalexia release at X=9. This, however, would cut off Dondril and Roa Dyr and maybe some other settlements and shaft them over to Heartland.

An alternative is to include all of A2 and A3 in Almalexia. I support this plan.

On incremental updates adding on more land, I disagree. We should not include more land in patches. New lands should always be releases of their own. They are our biggest hallmark and as such I think it would be cheapened if we started relegating the most exciting aspect of the stuff we do to "patches".

EDIT - I also want to take this time to say that I think this progress is great but it sounds like people are in danger of getting ahead of themselves. We just spent 3.5 years on our biggest release ever; things will be fine if we don't have Almalexia finished and ready to go after 2 months. Though obviously I don't hope we take 3.5 years (or anywhere close).

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Yep, the only question that actually needs asking is where people want release borders to be. But that is one that needs a decision before NPC work begins; and whether it seems fast or not, that actually is the next step. (i guess along with Hap and Why deciding precisely how and when non-misc quests, factions etc., get introduced into the existing releases) The other thing that any NPCing east of A2 would need to perhaps wait on is whether or not there's going to be any substantial exterior retouching done after Nemon is finished with Almalexia. So patience is definitely no problem.

On the question at hand, personally, I would favour putting the whole Thirr Valley in Heartland. It makes for a clear break from the old map system, and makes releases more coherent in terms of their content.


Otherwise yep, no rushing and definitely no 'patch releases'. This one question just needs to be determined before any NPC work can start.

[arvisrend]

We can split up our Map 4 file with no problems; it doesn't have NPCs or dialogue or even any real regions

Wasn't cleaning out irrelevant cells prone to causing land tears? Or does cutting a map work differently?

[Nemon]

Cleaning mountainous areas is sometimes like flipping a coin. The thing that helps is adding buffer cells behind the mountains, having the landscape roll back down to standard levels. These areas are mostly hard to reach without levitation.

[Haplo]

We can split up our Map 4 file with no problems; it doesn't have NPCs or dialogue or even any real regions

Wasn't cleaning out irrelevant cells prone to causing land tears? Or does cutting a map work differently?

No, cleaning out cells on the edges of our land will create a difference in height that is immediate (the gap you see at the edge of our releases). Land tears are freak accidents caused by, we assume, extreme changes in height difference over a very short distance, at certain distances from 0,0.

[arvisrend]

When I read this warning under every map5 ext claim description:

Note that cleaning irrelevant cells may create land tears, so backup your work regularly and often.

I sincerely doubt that this is about the regular falloff of terrain at the edge of a claim. It would be somewhat... offensive towards our modders to warn them about something like that, wouldn't it?

But then again, I have no idea about exteriors...

[Haplo]

That is from the map 5 thread. Map 5 is where we have lots of height differences of extreme amounts, so the warning is pertinent, I imagine.

[Scamp]

It should probably say: "Note that working on your claim may create land tears, so backup your work regularly and often."

But that doesn't sound quite optimistic...

[Nemon]

It should probably say: "Note that working on your claim may create land tears, so backup your work regularly and often."

But that doesn't sound quite optimistic...

But very realistic. It's a nuisance I recall as far back as working on the 6-15 claim in 2005.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

So on the actual question -- where the border of Heartland is going to be -- do we want to return to the original Map/claim borders like Haplo suggests, or stay with the new format?

Before I can think about doing any NPCing in that claim, we need to know.

Again, personally I would favour splitting the claim in two and putting the whole Thirr Valley in Heartland. It makes for a clear break from the old map system, and makes releases more coherent in terms of their content. A split on the X8 boundary line would leave Roa Dyr in Almalexia, whilst putting Almas Thirr (and by extension Old Ebonheart) in Heartland.

On the other hand I'd love to NPC Almas Thirr, so won't complain if the claim stays merged!

[Aeven]

Splitting A2 and A3 would cause a really weird split of the region.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

No more so than any other arbitrarily drawn boundary? It just means shaving two cells off the edge of what used to be Map 3, putting the majority of the Thirr Valley region in Heartland (rather than having one bank in each release). If anything, it should help make the TRV more coherent.

[Aeven]

I disagree. Eastern Thirr was designed as one consistent region, and if you split this up, then you'll get that the various settlements and the like will hold too little relation to each other.

Also, why do something arbitrarily when we have the chance to make a continuous area? Western Thirr is Hlaalu, and Eastern Thirr is Indoril, which makes it logical to divide it along those lines too in NPCing terms.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Fair points! But does Old Ebonheart end up in Almalexia then?

[Aeven]

I believe Old Ebonheart still goes to Heartland, but I think that'd be fine when you consider that it's Imperial, and isn't very connected to its region in the way the Indoril settlements are. But then again, I don't know.

[Haplo]

The original plan was to split A2 and A3. The easier plan, and the one I have since (like I said in my post) come to support, was including all of A2 and A3 in the Almalexia release. Old Ebonheart's inclusion has not been considered since it's not likely you will see us change our minds.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

That's perfectly cool - like I said I have no particular investment in either solution. My broader point is that it would be useful to have an officially set-down thought-out plan for these things, because they're important questions going forwards, in terms of the work that we're actually going to be getting in to very soon.

This thread might be a good location for such an official plan to be set down! Either by one authoritative person, or as the result of a discussion.

There's no virtue in leaving these things implicit or unspoken. That way misunderstandings and errors can be made. There's no disadvantage in having a coherent, official plan!

[arvisrend]

So, any progress on this decision?

(As far as I understand, all we have to decide now is whether to split M3A2 or not; any other decisions wouldn't impede the NPCing of M3A2. Or would they? And I really don't see why we should split M3A2... isn't that a pretty homogeneous region?)

[Nemon]

Since we're not aiming for a complete thirr valley release I don't see the point in splitting m3a2, since it is as arvisrend suggest a pretty homogeneous area.

A few questions from stuff we've discussed on and off on irc, did we agree that the Othrensis field should be changed to a similar style as around Almalexia? I'm fine with it, as well as making the mountain range between Othrensis and Almalexia a bit better. I\

Anything else worth mentioning? Roads? Passes? I have forgotten a few things recently, getting old it seems.

[arvisrend]

making the mountain range between Othrensis and Almalexia a bit better. I\

Wait. Mountains between Othrensis and Almalexia? Do you mean between Othrensis and Roa Dyr? Or are you actually raising the landscape west of Alma?

Anything else worth mentioning? Roads? Passes? I have forgotten a few things recently, getting old it seems.

I (and people before me) proposed a noob-safe pass through the mountains between Othrensis and Roa Dyr. The idea to partly lead it through a cave was scrapped (it's not important anyway, but the pass is).

[Nemon]

making the mountain range between Othrensis and Almalexia a bit better. I\

Wait. Mountains between Othrensis and Almalexia? Do you mean between Othrensis and Roa Dyr? Or are you actually raising the landscape west of Alma?

Anything else worth mentioning? Roads? Passes? I have forgotten a few things recently, getting old it seems.

I (and people before me) proposed a noob-safe pass through the mountains between Othrensis and Roa Dyr. The idea to partly lead it through a cave was scrapped (it's not important anyway, but the pass is).

Oh, naturally. Othrensis and Roa Dyr. But yes, I am also changing the other area a little, to further state the impact of Dagon's sacking of Old Mournhold. More rocks and elevation to not make Almalexia stick out like a sore thumb.

Noob safe pass yes as well.

[Why]

A few questions from stuff we've discussed on and off on irc, did we agree that the Othrensis field should be changed to a similar style as around Almalexia?

I'm not sure if we agreed but I'm a firm supporter of this. We have too much Grazeland and West Gash filler already. While we're at it, would it be a good idea to replace the remaining West Gash rocks in and around Almalexia with Ascadian Isles rocks, to go better with the greenish color scheme of the region? And indeed, that mountain range is rather essential in keeping the drainage basins of the Thirr and the Othreleth separate. But that's just the nerd in me speaking, feel free to ignore me on that one.

On the topic of splitting M3A2 (and M3A3 too, possibly) I'd rather not do that. To me, the eastern bank of the Thirr is an essential part of Indoril territory, and I'd much rather complete the Indoril holdings in the Almalexia release rather than wait until Heartland to include Roa Dyr and surroundings, as much as I'd like to release all of the Thirr in one go. Even if it would mean that, with Old Ebonheart in Heartland, M3A1 would still be missing from Almalexia, leaving a strange square gap in the Northwestern area of our next release, I think the completion of Indoril is the next big milestone we need to work towards, and if that means the Thirr has to be divided over two releases, so be it.

[Nomadic1]

I'm not sure if we agreed but I'm a firm supporter of this. We have too much Grazeland and West Gash filler already. While we're at it, would it be a good idea to replace the remaining West Gash rocks in and around Almalexia with Ascadian Isles rocks, to go better with the greenish color scheme of the region? And indeed, that mountain range is rather essential in keeping the drainage basins of the Thirr and the Othreleth separate. But that's just the nerd in me speaking, feel free to ignore me on that one.

That would result, essentially, in Ascadian Isles stretching from the Thirr in the west to almost the ocean to the east. To me that is a worse situation because it is such a large area breadthwise and lengthwise.

At the risk of being quite unpopular and unrealistic for suggesting it, I recommend either using RM or BC rocks in Alt Orethan, or trying to come up with an entirely new texture set (rocks and grass, which can support the use of MH's cacti) for it. Anything else is just doing more of the same.

[arvisrend]

That would result, essentially, in Ascadian Isles stretching from the Thirr in the west to almost the ocean to the east.

Do you count Lan Orethan as Ascadian Isles?

At the risk of being quite unpopular and unrealistic for suggesting it, I recommend either using RM or BC rocks in Alt Orethan

What about grazelands with occasional small hills (not connected mountain ranges) which switch to a different texture set at some height? (Like Ayers Rock, but higher.) Just an idea, can't guarantee it will work.

[Haplo]

That would result, essentially, in Ascadian Isles stretching from the Thirr in the west to almost the ocean to the east.

I disagree, because the Emerald Forest region is not a bunch of islands. While it may use a lot of AI flora, the look and feel of the area, along with the density of flora and the type of landscape and ground terrain that you see, is entirely different from traditional "Ascadian Isles". Elsewhere in our mod, AI is literally islands, as far as I know.

Also as far as splitting stuff, I'm going to go ahead and say we will include all of A2 and A3 in Almalexia.

[Nomadic1]

Do you count Lan Orethan as Ascadian Isles?

Yeah, I do. but as half-AI. As Haplo says the density, style and landscaping, as well as the lack of actual islands, makes it quite a bit different. But the base is still AI.

At the risk of being quite unpopular and unrealistic for suggesting it, I recommend either using RM or BC rocks in Alt Orethan

What about grazelands with occasional small hills (not connected mountain ranges) which switch to a different texture set at some height? (Like Ayers Rock, but higher.) Just an idea, can't guarantee it will work.

That sounds just like the Grazelands, but switching to another texture set at a certain height.

One of the things I enjoyed doing in the past at TR was using different textures and models in such a way as to create "new" things. For example: Lan Orethan was AI with heavy use of TR assets and a mix of different ideas I had like my own idea of what a forest might be like; a series of safe paths, manors and farms; treacherously dangerous once you left the road; easy to get lost in; etc.

If you want to do something: be daring, see what works and what doesn't, practicality be damned

[Theo]

I would say use more original TR meshes or combine textures and meshes from different sets to achieve a unique and yet consistent landscape.
The small cliff sets are certainly a little bit underused. You could create an intriguing landscape by forming a maze of crevices and eroded hills. I also do not recall the mesh version with the stream and waterfall cave ever used in TR.
These cliff hill tops would surround small hollows full of ponds, lush flora (perhaps even swamps, but probably no trees). The dominant floora could be mushrooms and small BC and AI plants. For textures - maybe mixture of AC for the rocks and AI/BC for the grassy parts?

[Why]

All I want is less West Gash filler, including mountain ranges. If Alt Orethan ends up using West Gash, that's fine with me, as long as it's a clear regional feature. Pick one style of rocks and use it all throughout the region, including the city and adjacent mountains (unless they are a region of their own, in which case they need to be more than just more WG filler). Having said that, I still think AI is the way to go here. It ties the Alt Orethan neatly to the Lan Orethan, the latter being a dense green forest, the former being a somewhat less dense valley thing with a massive city in it. Even if that means the majority of those regions use AI - as long as they're unique enough to not be mistaken for one another. But that's Nemon's department so I'll shut up now. He's more than capable of making the Alt Orethan interesting, especially considering those minicliff thingies Theo mentioned.

[Nemon]

I find Alt Orethan interesting enough already. It's merely a matter of finishing it without delving into another remake, which we've had more than enough of in my humble opinion.

[arvisrend]

Something different and far from urgent (I wish it was), but does it make sense to stop speaking about "maps" or "releases" from Almalexia on, but instead talk about "versions"? So the first version of Almalexia would be "Tamriel Rebuilt v4.0: Almalexia" rather than "Tamriel Rebuilt release 4: Almalexia 1.0". This would eliminate the need to carry two different numbers in the same file, and hopefully convince people not to try to install the ancient stuff along with the new version. We could throw in a "BETA" for some humility.

[Haplo]

That may be slightly moot because we don't number our big releases anymore; that was something exclusive to when we used maps (to tell them apart, ie map 2 vs map 6). They are just Tamriel Rebuilt: Sacred East (v1.1) or Tamriel Rebuilt: Almalexia (v1).