(Obsolete) Almalexia Discussion [Formerly M3A6 thread]

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:34 pm

On naming things, a well-selected English name is often going to be more evocative and memorable than another 'string-of-Dunmeri-syllables'. Too many of the latter will just cause all the places to blur into one - a good mix is healthy.

Some options to throw out:

zone 1 - High Ward/Steepchapel

2 - Canalside (doesn't really need 'a name' as such, cos it won't be needing a cell name - dialogue can refer to it as 'the canals', 'canalside', 'the docks' etc.)

Kowloon - Six Arches/Archway Residences

5 - King's Parade

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:21 pm

Aeven asked for some thoughts so here they are.

I agree with the Crustacean, meaningful English names are better than Dunmeri. Or we can have both, though that might get confusing.

2. "The Wet" ? "Shadeside"?

3. The podium sounds like a Madrassa type thing, which I dig.

5. Foreign Quarter? It's obvious, which makes it both kind of lame and easy to understand.

6. A bit hard to see how big this is, but it seems too small. Is it possible to connect it into 5, and make it the residential bit of it? It seems strange that an Imperial poet would have such an important piece of real-estate.

11. Connect 11 to 9, making it an arty residential area? An awkward mix between Dunmeri hipsters and the traditional "true" artists? An enclave of academics from the nearby schools, complete with feuds about their philosophies?

13. A temply bit, honoring honored ancestors? A mini-necrom type thing, with meditative garden? For people who can't make it into the city.

17. I'd also consider placing watch towers in 17. No longer operational, now serve as scenic viewpoints and rentable spaces for special occasions, but formerly defenses of the inner city Maybe something historic, too, like "this was the last stand of blah blah against blah blah, whose heroic death assured the survival of the city," or "from this spot her grace blah jumped to avoid the shameful arranged marriage to duke of Colovia," etc. etc.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:41 pm

I agree in general with those naming principles. Randomly composed Dunmeri sounding names work in some places, but can quickly become trite. (Especially if they all follow the two-word pattern.) When it comes to things like the docks I indeed never intended for them to have a non-interpretable name, but everything that's more colorful than "docks" is profit.

When it comes to English names, I'm a little wary of the eternal adjective-noun pattern (Steepchapel, High Ward etc.), because it's the default for both unimaginative fantasy writing and American suburban development areas. The same goes for the reverse (Shadeside, etc.) The problem with these is that they often try to be meaningful, but they sometimes end up being a rather cheap sort of meaningful. ("It's got a chapel and it's steep, so there.") I'm personally partial to names like "Six Arches" because they bespeak a history. "Six Arches" is what the people who live there call a place, while many of the others are what the people who built it would call it. Also nothing wrong with taking English words and then blending them a little bit to suggest an old entrenched name.

17. I'd also consider placing watch towers in 17. No longer operational, now serve as scenic viewpoints and rentable spaces for special occasions, but formerly defenses of the inner city

I'd agree with this, on condition that they are small towers, almost just raised platforms, rather than the big towers elsewhere in town.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:47 pm

As far as the Indoril quarter (with the Ascendant and the Council) goes, I think a proper Dunmeri name makes sense. Possibly relating to Nerevar.

Relating to the horse shoe, maybe it'd be an idea for Nemon to remove a lot of those buildings and replace them with apartments? Also consider extending the area a bit to the east, as to change the shape. Something with balconies. Lots of balconies. Which makes me the The Balconies could be a name for the area.

(For some reason I really want to go all Latin on these names, but that would be weird.)

Why · Post by **Why** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:16 pm

On names, let's drop that subject for now. We can decide on them later, and as long as we've got a clear idea which districts are what, that's enough for the moment. I'll refer to things with their temporary names for clarity.

A couple of concerns. The ramp-area leading from 14 (Whitehall) to 17 (Sarmoon Terraces) suffers from exactly the same problem as the horseshoe-shaped area (4) near the Gates of Symmachus, with a smattering of buildings that don't really contribute to anything. It looks messy, especially in comparison with the neat and ordered administrative area. I know I suggested having a way to access the terraces from here, but in retrospect I wonder if this is still a good. We've still got a few important buildings we should add to the administrative district (The Imperial Consulate and the Grand Council, see Adanorcil's post) so to me this looks like an excellent place for those. Put the Grand Council Hall in the cliff face of Mournhold opposite the Indoril Council, give the Grand Ascendant manor some more space around it (a little park area?), and put the Imperial Consulate at the side somewhere, flattening the entire area somewhat and removing the ramp and the access to the Terraces.

I really do think that the horseshoe area leading to Mournhold (4) needs to be retooled. It's weird to have these buildings up there - this is probably the most prominent place of all the city, so I'd much rather see an open, decorative area much like Vivec's High Fane, with two big iconic Almalexia statues but no houses or shops. Furthermore, if the ramp area in the northeast I mentioned earlier is removed, this area would really become the only access point to Mournhold, and as such it'd deserve some ceremony, instead of the somewhat random group of buildings present now. Please consider making access to Mournhold and the Sarmoon Terraces the primary function of this area, and remove any non-essential buildings (that means, all of them, except maybe a guard post or high ordinator/royal guard checkpoint, though that could easily be integrated into the Gates of Symmachus by placing a few doors and calling it a new interior). This, to me, also seems like a perfect place to include some more sharp and unorganic angles, when you're reworking the top area. Come to think of it, I really want a statue of Almalexia with five children, breastfeeding one of them, or something along those lines.

Anyway, I'm not feeling like I've made my points entirely clear in the above text, so a short summary of what I'd do:

- Remove the NE ramp, extend Whitehall (14) to include the Grand Council Chambers and the Imperial Consulate, give the Grand Ascendant manor some more breathing space.

- Reorient the horseshoe area to be the ceremonial entrance to Mournhold and the Sarmoon Terraces, remove all buildings, make it a public place. Think Vivec High Fane, big, imposing, empty, square, statues.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:31 pm

I am going to rant a little. I don't often do that.

Ffs I'm not redoing the stuff I've changed with the NE ramp again. The Alma Roundabout is going to be accessible from all major areas, including this, and it's the constant discussion on "yay organic" and "screw static" that led to this remodeling in the first place. Even comparing a admittedly sucky horseshoe area to this is preposterous, since the latter kicks ass and the former looks like a half assed solution on my part. End of rant.

The horseshoe will be dehousified, and their replacements will be indoril "artsy" arrangements instead, as a solemn holy place to contemplate what the hell to do before meeting Gaenor in battle. I can probably move the statues that now is placed within the half circle itself, although I prefer not to as I don't lack options on top of the horseshoe and I think it looks better the way it is now.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:42 pm

I second to Nemon. The new NE ramp looks awesome.

Why · Post by **Why** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Ugh, let's at least discuss it in earnest. I admit that I could've worded my criticism better, but I really do believe that an extension of the administrative district would make a lot of sense - even looking at Adanorcil's nicely color-coded map, the ramp is a big undefined space, and I want the areas in this city to have purpose. It may look awesome, but what *is* it for, except walking up to the terraces? Looking awesome isn't enough. That's what the old giant ramps did.

I understand that you might be a bit cross with me for suggesting it now that you've already made a lot of progress on it, and I apologise for not bringing it up earlier, but let's not put a lock on the area because you don't want to go back and alter it (a position I completely understand by the way) because if you don't feel like implementing changes to the area, there are others who can do it for you.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:03 pm

I can't see any other reason for not color coding it than it still being a wip. It's a beautiful pathway up to the terraces, it really fits the purpose as I see it. And I am not done with it yet, either.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:22 pm

Nemon, I understand you're a little frustrated here. But if you're going to be working on that area more, please at least elaborate on what you're going to do with it before you start working on it. Modding before discussing is what got us those large ramps we just decided on removing, and I see the exact same thing happening again here. This area still needs both the Grand Council building and the Imperial Consulate. Those were good ideas for interiors, and are now seemingly at risk of not being realized because the environment no longer fits.

I have to say, though, if you read the criticism offered on the previous page, you'll find no one ever told you to level the whole place and start over in a very different way. My personal advice was to shrink the very biggest buildings some and do something about the big ramps. The general atmosphere was very good in my opinion.

Could you perhaps give me an hour or so? I'd like to make a very quick mock-up just to explain what I meant for the place (and I believe Why largely agrees with me on that). That way at least everyone can have a say *before* you do the work.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:15 pm

The ramps has been nothing but a matter of discussion the last year, and it's really not a big challenge to replace them with a more normal usage of landscaping. They were a fucking patchwork of half usable statics, extremely ineffective and a heavy load far beyond what is tolerable. They looked cool in screenshots but up close the moddyness came true. None of our current models fit the purpose, and you can't beat a proper shaped, vertex shaded sloped road anyway.

I'm working on the Sarmon Terrace now, and won't start work on the NW ramp for a while yet. I plan on keeping the Alma Rula cross shaped building at the top, however more thoroughly seated in proper landscaping. On both sides, beautiful pathways will pass by and rejoin up at the terraces.

Below the Alma Rula I will add the other large, important venues stated in the earlier post, as well as upgrading the neighboring areas to fit the grandiose, fancy visions we have for this section. A large open square near the bottom of the hill will serve as the "champs elysees" for this place. Culture, extravaganza etc etc.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:16 pm

Adanorcil wrote:Could you perhaps give me an hour or so? I'd like to make a very quick mock-up just to explain what I meant for the place (and I believe Why largely agrees with me on that). That way at least everyone can have a say *before* you do the work.

Sure. And I guess you mean mainly the NW area. Nothing has been done here yet.

Why · Post by **Why** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:31 pm

Sounds good to me!

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Nemon wrote:
Adanorcil wrote:Could you perhaps give me an hour or so? I'd like to make a very quick mock-up just to explain what I meant for the place (and I believe Why largely agrees with me on that). That way at least everyone can have a say *before* you do the work.
Sure. And I guess you mean mainly the NW area. Nothing has been done here yet.

No, I actually meant the NE area. I'm sad to say I share Why's criticism of your redesign. I understand this is work in progress, but unless you can do some absolute magic, that windy path isn't going to have the same allure as the original. To put it in simple terms, I think the look went from grand to picturesque. It looks nice in its own regard, but you cannot picture the parliament of your country on a small windy road, can you?*

Here's a quick pictureof what I intended for the place in the previous posts, based on the original. As you can see, nothing nearly as drastic has been changed as what you did. The point was to replace some of the very tall, thin, buildings with more squat, functional looking ones (should be carried through even further than what I did) and to create a little more space so the whole place would look a little more regal. Ideally, I figure the area in the back would have a similar courtyard with, behind it, a final rise towards the terraces, which, need be, could be a little windy as long as it doesn't spill into the rest of the area too much.(Also read further down.) Very importantly, such a design also completely retains those wonderful underground canals you had.*

I'll attach the esp for the sake of discussion, but anyone looking at should be aware that it's based on a (presumably) dirty esp and the cell is by no means usable. There's a lot of stuff just floating around.

As for the terraces, I just noticed that there is really nothing stopping us from at least lowering those a bit. As far as I can see, there's not really a place where this would ever be a problem, and it would mean quite a difference in height that doesn't have to be bridged with stairs or ramps.

I had a discussion with Why earlier about the need for extra entrances to the terraces. Why is of the opinion that restricting it to one entrance in the south makes the area special, whilst convenient solving the ramp problems in the other parts. While I understand his reasoning, I'm of the opinion that it would be irresponsible from a gameplay point of view. No other entrances/exits would mean that a full tour would be crossing no less than 8 cell borders without a single way out, on a platform entirely to height to jump off from any direction. I'm picturing Vivec's cantons, only far bigger. I'd like some input from others on this.

* I'm not an expert on the technical side of esp merging, but just for the sake of discussion, wouldn't it possible to simply merge your old design back in from a previous file?

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:18 pm

I must say Adanorcil, I really like the look you have thought up for the place.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:40 am

Why wrote: Come to think of it, I really want a statue of Almalexia with five children, breastfeeding one of them, or something along those lines.

I'd really like to see a statue like this too. Something to really contrast with the view most players have of Almalexia as a cut-throat bitch. The current use of two generic statues in the area doesn't really accomplish anything unique.

Post by **arvisrend** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:59 am

To whomever is editing the file:

Furn_De_r_Table_09 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-29) 176652 -233345 2036 "wtf"

TR_i3-101-Ind, Ground Floor: missing column pieces (2 of them).

@Adanorcil: I'm with you on the "terraces should have at least two entrances" thing. Other than that I don't feel remotely competent to comment on this discussion...

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:13 am

First off, the underground canals were a waste of space, power and time. I appreciate praise for my work, but they were a little disaster of cluttered structures and barely usable statics. The amount of stuff used to create these areas was plain and simple just too much. They won't survive in that form - period. As much as I do love "exterior interiors", I also have aesthetics to consider.

Also, I see you're taking the different route. I'm focusing the important government center (or what we will end up describing it as) of Almalexia at middle to bottom level of this section of the city, leaving residentials climb the hills up to the terraces. This is because smaller structures lend themselves easier to placement in tall narrow places than large structures. More sense as well, I never imagined a parliament up there.

Also, instead of throwing out names of council halls, this and that, present the damn description and just plainly how the interior has been planned so far. Use statics. Include what is already there (for instance the grand asc and what purpose that has). Also, the thing in the very NW corner, wtf is its purpose and should it be kept? I am really trying to create this city using shapes and stuff we have available, but find myself constantly wondering what is really being described. It's one thing conceptualizing and making grand description - making it is a whole different thing.

On merging, it's really not difficult to merge your stuff in. Clean out from one .esp, load both and combine. Simple and easy.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:27 pm

New file, did some rework behind the alma rula. I imagined the old grand council in the octagon building, with skybridges crossing to two separate importantthingies.

For embassies, I imagine the two towers directly in front of the alma rula to be useful.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:37 pm

Nice work on the Grand Ascendant plaza area Nemon! The Grand Council building looks really good. This is the Morrowind Council though, not the Indoril one. Which makes me think the Indoril one opposite the Ascendency could use some sprucing up. Don't have any idea's currently. (The Alma Rula is on the old style ramp.)

As for the towers: They're rather big and tall, and would be hellish to navigate I think. Maybe something less tall but more squarey? One should be the Imperial Consulate and the other be the Embassy. (Speaking of how to represent it visually, the Empire obviously has the Dragon. Should Morrowind use the Wolf, considering the nominal Kingdom of Morrowind?)

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:51 pm

Here's a new WIP. NW ramp started over, progressing nicely.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:32 pm

I've merged in the Indoril Council, the Alma Rula and the Fighters Guild, and some minor touch ups as Nemon said I could.

Only the Alma Rula is currently unlinked, as it has not yet been placed back in the new district.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:26 pm

WIP.
A little bit of work performed on the new area replacing the NW ramp. This file is available for the next 20 hours or so.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:16 pm

New WIP. A little bit more stuff done.

Bero · Post by **Bero** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Awesome city already can't wait to see it finished.
But there is one error, well this is probably bad thread to post it but I'll do it anyway.
TR_ex_ind_hwall02 is missing one side since some update, which made error in TR_i3-679: Underground. Can someone fix (model or more likely interior) this? Or I can do it since it is my claim

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:47 pm

Linked the Alma Rula's palace for Nemon, worked from his latest WIP from IRC. This includes his works.

@Bero: I checked what you were talking about and you're correct. The easiest fix to to restore that face to the model. It likely has caused similar errors elsewhere. Nice interior by the way!

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:21 pm

A little bit of work done. It's challenging creating luxurious manors and buildings, cultural venues and whatnot... but I'm getting there step by step.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 pm

Free for whoever wants to work on it for the next 32 hours or so

.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75536686/TR_De ... hecity.rar

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:37 pm

Nemon and I are both working on this at the same time currently: he is doing Almalexia and I am working on the other areas.

Nemon, on that note, I am missing a mesh called ind_fence or something, but you have used. I think we could update TR_Data anyway, considering the new files we're using here.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:08 pm

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18686&start=368

This thread, alex25's post

.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:09 pm

I accidentally added two buildings with no 15. Go ahead and discuss stuff, and know that this is still WIP.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:17 pm

Latest WIP. Still some work needing to be done inside the city itself. Aeven is currently doing wilderness/alma region stuff.

Somewhat cleaned file.

Post by **arvisrend** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:14 am

Apropos cleaning, some weird things:

Comments in script TR_m3_A6_Pub_Othrensis_Lute give the false flag for this inn. Replace both Rent_Balmora_Lucky and Rent_Bed_Pelagiad by TR_Rent_Othrensis_Lute.

Script TR_m3_i3-511_1sturn uses GetHealth; this is unreliable and can't easily be replaced by OnDeath. I'll try to do something about this when I have more time.

Script TR_m3a6_almawater still is uncompiled. IIRC you should replace "watr_wave" by "Water Layer".

Script TR_M3_Summon_Gost_LN is broken (could spawn ghosts every time activated) and unused, so can be deleted.

tes3cmd finds a lot of junk to clean out.

After my exams, I'll look at all the objects introduced by the ints that were merged into the file. While I am pretty sure that several of them are trash, I don't have enough details.

Aeven · Post by **Aeven** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:22 pm

Here's a WIP for Nemon.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:09 pm

New merge, should be ok (but keep a backup).

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:06 pm

Derp, think it's newer than the last one.

Post by **arvisrend** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:24 am

More weird things / bugs.

Several Greeting-7's introduced by this ESP should be cell-conditioned to cell = Othrensis:

- How goes the day, %PCRace? I hope you find what you are looking for in Othrensis.

- Welcome to Othrensis, outlander. Have a look around, see the city, and if you've got any questions, ask away.

- I hope the day treats you well in Othrensis, %PCClass.

- Greetings, %PCRace. I hope Othrensis suites your needs. Note the typo.

- You're in Othrensis, %PCRace. If you've got questions, let's hear them.

- Welcome to Othrensis, outlander. Was there something you wanted to ask?

The other problem with these greetings is that they should obviously only come at high enough dispositions (most Dunmer won't be so friendly to a stranger).

Same for the Fort Lutemoth greets:

- Welcome to Fort Lutemoth, citizen. This whole fort is open for visitors, so feel free to have a look round. The East Empire Company are based at the top of the fort, at the back, if that's what you're here for. Look round or look around? Also, this greeting is too memorable to be a random greeting not conditioned to any specific NPC, methinks.

- This is Fort Lutemoth, holding of the Imperial Legion. Well we're mostly run by the East Empire Company now. If you're here to see them look for their offices upstairs. Commas missing, too.

- What is your bussiness in Fort Lutemoth, %PCRace? Typo.

- Welcome to the Imperial holding of Fort Lutemoth. Can I help you in any way?

- Watch yourself in Fort Lutemoth, stranger. We don't take kindly to criminals here. It looks like this needs an upper bound on disposition, whereas the above greetings need lower bounds.

I am not going to look over the containers and enchantments now since I'd need to know first which of the old ints are going to die.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:47 pm

The November 26th file is the most recent one, SamirA. Unfortunately the interior doors Aeven merged got their links removed, exterior links still in place though.

The city is finished, roughly speaking. It's just some small detailing that's left to do, plus wilderness and road work. Nothing that can't wait until January.

Mwgek · Post by **Mwgek** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:13 pm

Some stuffs I bc'ed while sight seeing. Love the place fear for fps though.

12/2/2012 (14:49) TR_Detailing_A6_Almamerge.esp 11/22/2012 (22:18) flora_ivy_02 XXXXXAlmalexia (24,-26) 202403 -207844 715 "flying ivy's"
12/2/2012 (14:50) TR_Detailing_A6_Almamerge.esp 11/22/2012 (22:18) tr_ex_ind_roadmarker XXXXXAlmalexia (24,-26) 203120 -210720 1392 "no banner attached"
12/2/2012 (14:51) TR_Detailing_A6_Almamerge.esp 11/22/2012 (22:18) TR_ex_ind_dwall01 XXXXXAlmalexia (24,-26) 204185 -210558 1013 "bleeding wall through building"

SamirA · Post by **SamirA** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 pm

Thanks Nemon, I'll get to work on sorting the interiors.