Why new lore by Bethesda & ZO is pretty irrelevant

[Ragox]

...and why fan-made lore is not!

While browsing through a few threads I've noticed quite a few people being very interested in the upcoming Elder Scrolls Online and think it will provide new lore that might in some way or form be important for this project.

In my opinion that is not very much the case.

Firstly the company, which is developing the game, is not even Bethesda itself but instead a new and quite different company called Zenimax Online. But let's just assume for a moment it was actually Bethesda developing the game, it would still not be very important, simply for the reason, that not a single writer from the Morrowind era is still with either of these companies. In its current form Bethesda has very few people left from back then and Zenimax Online probably even fewer (if any at all).

And think about this: Do the latest games indicate a true love for the deep, mystical lore of Morrowind, or doesn't it all feel quite generic and simplified?
Might those "new guys" possibly be ordered to please [url=http://www.forkparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/casual-gaming.jpg]a new target audience[/url], which requires simple storytelling?

So, if you noticed the same, why might that be?
-Well, the answer was already given above.

Do the new writers at either of the companies have a deep place for Morrowind in their hearts?
-We can't be sure of it, imo the recent indications don't speak for it.

Do the writers here at Tamriel Rebuilt have a deep place for Morrowind in their hearts?
-I think it is pretty safe to assume so


Edit: This thread was clearly influenced by my nostalgia and fanboyism when it comes to MW, but what I'm basically trying to say is: Just because these developers earn money for working on Elder Scrolls titles does not make their creative outcomes any more valid. Also simply getting hired by either of the studios doesn't transform one into a higher being.

[Yeti]

No offence Ragox, but detracting from Bethesda's newer games and raising Morrowind up on a golden pedestal isn't exactly a groundbreaking message. People have been bashing Bethesda ever since Oblivion came out, both here and across the internet. There really isn't any need to bring it up again, especially concerning Elder Scrolls Online. I personally haven't noticed a whole lot of praise for the game around here. Most seem to be pretty dismissive of it overall. The whole concept of an online Elder Scroll game was pretty much [url=http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f274/Joshuakun/MorrowindOnline.jpg]dead on arrival[/url] for many Morrowind fans years before it was announced.

It's kind of unfair to assume TES Online won't have anything interesting to offer based solely on the grounds that its a MMORPG and probably doesn't have many of Morrowind's writers on board. Even if most of its lore ends up being crap doesn't mean there won't be anything we can draw from it. Sure, we'll almost certainly go our own route for 99% of the areas it covers, but having a source of inspiration is better than not having it to begin with.

It also kind of irks me that people blame everything they don't like about the newer Elder Scrolls games on causal gamers. Why be so judgmental about a bloody video game? Honestly, the fact that Morrowind ended up being so inventive and groundbreaking in terms of its storytelling and game world was probably a fluke. We should get over the following games not living up to it. There's at least three mod teams creating whole new provinces and lands in the style of Morrowind, so who cares if Bethesda does there own thing.

[Ragox]

The whole concept of an online Elder Scroll game was pretty much [url=http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f274/Joshuakun/MorrowindOnline.jpg]dead on arrival[/url] for many Morrowind fans years before it was announced.

Thanks a lot for the pic, I had a very healthy laugh at it!

Even if most of its lore ends up being crap doesn't mean there won't be anything we can draw from it.

Sure, only time can tell, it would be awesome if they do a good job, of course.

It also kind of irks me that people blame everything they don't like about the newer Elder Scrolls games on causal gamers.

Well, you're right. In fact its not the casual gamers who are to blame, but the money greedy publishers owners (&stock holders). A very precise quote from Google Finance about that: "Fun and games isn't all fun and games -- for ZeniMax Media its business."

Honestly, the fact that Morrowind ended up being so inventive and groundbreaking in terms of its storytelling and game world was probably a fluke.

I disagree completely. Having had my own experiences in the game industry I know that nothing is by chance and there is almost always a very long and in depth concept phase (even back then).

[Gez]

The real reason why ESO lore is not very relevant to the TR project is because it's set in the second era, eight centuries before Morrowind's time.

[url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era#2E_578]Here's the setting for ESO[/url]:

2E 578 - Molag Bal begins to pull Nirn into Coldharbour.

• An arcane energy explosion known as the Soulburst occurs in the Imperial City and sends mystical aftershocks across Nirn, causing mages to die or go mad, Daedra to appear in greater numbers, and the constellation of the Serpent to dominate the night sky. In the ensuing chaos, the Daedric Prince Molag Bal deploys Dark Anchors to begin pulling Nirn into his realm of Coldharbour to merge the two together.

2E 582 - The Alliance War begins.

• Three competing alliances are formed by the nations of Tamriel to defend against the Imperials under Molag Bal's influence. The Aldmeri Dominion, consisting of Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr, seeks to reestablish Elven dominance over Tamriel to protect it from the carelessness of the younger races. The Daggerfall Covenant, consisting of High Rock, Hammerfell, and Orsinium, intends to restore the Second Empire and return peace and stability to Tamriel. The Ebonheart Pact, consisting of Skyrim, Morrowind, and Black Marsh, desires to defeat the Imperials in order to preserve the independence of their homelands.

This is, basically, bullshit. It's not lore, it's, well, gamey. Like, why is Orsinium part of the Daggerfall Covenant? It wasn't even treated as a political entity until the Warp in the West, which happened late in the 3rd era. The Ebonheart Pact doesn't make sense; prior to TESO the relationships between Nords and Dunmer, or between Dunmer and Argonians, have always been either truce or war, but never peace. And I'm not even saying anything about the big plot being basically a copy of Oblivion, except with Molag Bal this time.

It's just a big cliche all around. Here, let's take the nine provinces (we'll say Orsinium is one even if it's smaller than Monaco, seriously on Oblivion's scale it would be about the size of Aleswell) and split them in three factions of three. Redguards, Bretons and Orcs in one; Nords, Dunmer and Argonians in another; Bosmer, Altmer and Khajiits in the third. This way it's "balanced". Even if it doesn't make sense. I suppose Elsweyr is only in the Dominion because it was conquered

[gro-Dhal]

Yeah there's a lot wrong with the above and Gez nailed it with the 'gamey' comment (although the one that bugs me is 'younger races'- what does that even mean in a cosmology where everyone is supposedly descended from the gods?).

However if TESO comes up with something cool and relevant we may well reference it in TR. Oblivion and Skyrim have both influenced the lore of the project, sometimes in quite subtle ways.

[Yeti]

I disagree completely. Having had my own experiences in the game industry I know that nothing is by chance and there is almost always a very long and in depth concept phase (even back then).

I totally agree, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear by what I said before. Reading my first post again, I do sound kind of dismissive towards the hard work that was put into making Morrowind. That definitely wasn't my intention.

What I really meant to say was that Morrowind was created by the right people at the right time. It took a whole team of talented and creative developers to make Morrowind one of the greatest fantasy world's ever seen in a video game. Fluke probably wasn't the right word, but it still seems like a chance event that the right people just happend to be around to create such a unified and believable game world.

Concerning Gez's post... yeah, a lot of TESO's backstory and setup is more than a little questionable. With that said, I'll wait to see what the finish product is like before I judge whether it's bullshit. Some ideas end up working better when implemented then how they sound on paper. If Zenimax can make the Ebonheart Pact believable in the game by showing the tention and animosity between the different races of the alliance, then great. If they can't, well, we'll always have Morrowind, at least.

[Tes96]

The real reason why ESO lore is not very relevant to the TR project is because it's set in the second era, eight centuries before Morrowind's time.

[url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era#2E_578]Here's the setting for ESO[/url]:

2E 578 - Molag Bal begins to pull Nirn into Coldharbour.

• An arcane energy explosion known as the Soulburst occurs in the Imperial City and sends mystical aftershocks across Nirn, causing mages to die or go mad, Daedra to appear in greater numbers, and the constellation of the Serpent to dominate the night sky. In the ensuing chaos, the Daedric Prince Molag Bal deploys Dark Anchors to begin pulling Nirn into his realm of Coldharbour to merge the two together.

2E 582 - The Alliance War begins.

• Three competing alliances are formed by the nations of Tamriel to defend against the Imperials under Molag Bal's influence. The Aldmeri Dominion, consisting of Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elsweyr, seeks to reestablish Elven dominance over Tamriel to protect it from the carelessness of the younger races. The Daggerfall Covenant, consisting of High Rock, Hammerfell, and Orsinium, intends to restore the Second Empire and return peace and stability to Tamriel. The Ebonheart Pact, consisting of Skyrim, Morrowind, and Black Marsh, desires to defeat the Imperials in order to preserve the independence of their homelands.

This is, basically, bullshit. It's not lore, it's, well, gamey. Like, why is Orsinium part of the Daggerfall Covenant? It wasn't even treated as a political entity until the Warp in the West, which happened late in the 3rd era. The Ebonheart Pact doesn't make sense; prior to TESO the relationships between Nords and Dunmer, or between Dunmer and Argonians, have always been either truce or war, but never peace. And I'm not even saying anything about the big plot being basically a copy of Oblivion, except with Molag Bal this time.

It's just a big cliche all around. Here, let's take the nine provinces (we'll say Orsinium is one even if it's smaller than Monaco, seriously on Oblivion's scale it would be about the size of Aleswell) and split them in three factions of three. Redguards, Bretons and Orcs in one; Nords, Dunmer and Argonians in another; Bosmer, Altmer and Khajiits in the third. This way it's "balanced". Even if it doesn't make sense. I suppose Elsweyr is only in the Dominion because it was conquered

Boy, that about sums it up. Regurgitation of TESIV indeed. The CRPG formula seems to now be having a thief, mage or warrior from which to choose; magic, stealth or fighter. ....although, Bethesda used this formula back in the Daggerfall days. [url=http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/516/d39b.jpg]DF picture[/url]. Well, I'm pretty much just ranting and agreeing with you. TES games now are pretty much first-person shooters with swords and magic instead of guns, in my opinion.

[Why]

Honestly the thing that bugs me most is that they clearly made all the lore up to serve the gameplay and only the gameplay, and then brought in some poor game dev person and had him grow impressive facial hair to con us into believing their story is actually good. Just look at him!

[img]http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2013/01/The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-lead-loremaster-610x300.jpg[/img]

I mean what the hell. That's unfair. I can't even grow a simple mustache, let alone look like I'd be in front row at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. I'm jealous as fuck over here.

Wait, what were we talking about?

[Holy Grahl]

I am too a Morrowind die-hard fan and very critical of Oblivion as game (and lore content), and I can't say I'm looking forward to ESO (though I have nothing against an TES MMO, and I'm definately NOT one of those guys who think that an MMO means the creative death of the series).

My opinion is that official lore is official, and should be treated with respect. I'm not saying TR should follow ESO lore to the letter, or correct itself in order to get in line with new lore- that would be unproductive (and I actually think the TR team is superior to Schlick's legion in terms of creativity and recursive lore faithfulness) - but official lore is official, so I can just hope the new ESO lore blends in- and that the TR team will make use of at least something from it (800 years is enough to change the face of a province, so you have a sound reason to do whatever you think best- I have faith in your judgment).

Oh, and Why, when the first ESO video discussing lore was released, I too asked myself who Lawrence Schlick is and where did he come from. Turns out he's an old friend of Ken Rolston who got him the job. Schlick has a solid resume, so it's not like Ken vouched out of mercy for some old schoolmate that couldn't get a job and was on the brink of going hobo.

[Gez]

That explains the beard. You could just model that guy's head for a pal of Soccucius Ergalla.

Yeti, the Thief/Mage/Fighter thing has been an integral part of TES cosmology since Arena. It's prominent in Morrowind, as you can easily fit the three Great Houses of Vvardenfell and the three false gods of the Tribunal into it. (And obviously, there's the Thieves Guild, Mages Guild, and Figthers Guild.)

[Why]

The man is probably very good at his job. In fact, I think most of the story and setting is fine, as far as MMOs go. It's just that TES still has to prove itself as being good MMO-material.

[rot]

The man is probably very good at his moustache. In fact, I think most of the whiskers and bends are fine, as far as moustaches go. It's just that a moustache still has to prove itself as being good Loremaster-material.

[Tes96]

I am too a Morrowind die-hard fan and very critical of Oblivion as game (and lore content), and I can't say I'm looking forward to ESO (though I have nothing against an TES MMO, and I'm definitely NOT one of those guys who think that an MMO means the creative death of the series).

My opinion is that official lore is official, and should be treated with respect. I'm not saying TR should follow ESO lore to the letter, or correct itself in order to get in line with new lore- that would be unproductive (and I actually think the TR team is superior to Schlick's legion in terms of creativity and recursive lore faithfulness) - but official lore is official, so I can just hope the new ESO lore blends in- and that the TR team will make use of at least something from it (800 years is enough to change the face of a province, so you have a sound reason to do whatever you think best- I have faith in your judgment).

Oh, and Why, when the first ESO video discussing lore was released, I too asked myself who Lawrence Schlick is and where did he come from. Turns out he's an old friend of Ken Rolston who got him the job. Schlick has a solid resume, so it's not like Ken vouched out of mercy for some old schoolmate that couldn't get a job and was on the brink of going hobo.

I think since the lore team is all new employees from the Morrowind years, it's okay for us to bend and not use some of the lore. For example, the Province:Cyrodiil team is making Cyrodiil an actual jungle as it was described in the first Pocket Guide to the Empire. And even Bethesda bent their own lore a lot when they made the Morrowind map for TESIII versus the map used in TES Arena. Games are a lot like comics in that the creators retcon their ideas here and there. "Retcon" meaning they act as if "such 'n' such" thing never happened even though it did in a previous game, comic, edition, whatever.

What I don't like about TESO so far is how they portray magic in the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jNT5cMwxw0]cinematic trailer[/url]. I mean, that Levitation Act wasn't thought up back then so why was that mage scaling the wall like everybody else? Or why didn't the mage in the very beginning just use Night Eye or a Light spell? And why didn't he just make all his comrades invisible if they were trying to be stealthy? I can probably answer that; it looked much cooler with all the explosions and action.

TESO looks very action packed, which there is nothing wrong with that at all. The gaming industry is targeting a different demographic, the ones that like action, simple quests, and huge rewards. The audience from the days of Daggerfall and Morrowind grow smaller and smaller because the younger generation are exposed to modern games, not old ones. Oh well, like someone else said, we'll always have Morrowind... until technology fails.

[Gez]

And even Bethesda bent their own lore a lot when they made the Morrowind map for TESIII versus the map used in TES Arena.

Arena was barely lore. Most town names were randomly generated (how else can you expect to get things like "Karththor Heights" on one side of the province, and "Karththor Dale" on the other side?). I think the city-state names (the big cities represented by a stronghold icon on the map) were the only one that were named by actual humans, all towns and villages were random. This led to stuff like "Riverbridge" be dozens of miles away from the nearest river.

Here, let me [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1452358-relz-tamriel-rebuilt-sacred-east-12-5/?p=22903671]quote myself[/url] because BSF prunes the threads after a while:

Let's play a game of "Where are they now?"
Arena had 32 cities per province, always divided into eight City States, eight Towns, and sixteen Villages. For the province of Morrowind, they were:
City States:

• Blacklight
• Ebonheart
• Kragenmoor
• Narsis
• Tear
• Mournhold
• Necrom
• Firewatch

Towns:

• Silgrad Tower
• Karththor Dale
• Oak Town
• Silnim Vale
• Eaglemoor
• Dragon Glade
• Glen Haven
• Stoneforest

Villages:

• Cormar View
• Reich Parkeep
• Verarchen Hall
• Stonefalls
• Riverbridge
• Heimlyn Keep
• Old Keep
• Corkarth Run
• Amber Forest
• Darnim Watch
• Sailen Vulgate
• Helnim Wall
• Greenheights
• Karththor Heights
• Old Run
• Markgran Forest

Then in the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-province-concept-official]old concept map[/url] dating back from when they planned to have all of the province, most of it randomly-generated and some of it custom, there were interesting changes:

• Cormar View becomes Cormaris View
• Reich Parkeep becomes Soluthis
• Verarchen Hall becomes Veranis Hall
• Karththor Dale becomes Omaynis (not sure about the last couple letters)
• Oak Town becomes Andrethis
• Riverbridge is moved to be on the river
• Corkarth Run becomes Rithendis Falls
• Amber Forest becomes something completely illegible because there's a pink grid line over the label (looks vaguely like Alavois, judging just from the bottom of the letters, could be pretty much anything else)
• Darnim Watch becomes Daryonis Watch
• Dragon Glade becomes Draloris
• Karththor Heights becomes Velothis Haven
• Glen Haven becomes Llothanis Heights (alternatively, Glen Haven and Karththor Heights switched places and then became Velothis and Llothanis)
• Stoneforest becomes Stonewood
• Old Run becomes Sadrith Forest
• Markgran Forest becomes Aldrun (alternatively, Old Run and Markran Forest switched places)
• Port Telvannis, Vivace, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil are added

We can see they really loved the -is ending for city names at this stage. Interesting to note that Vivec City was first named Vivace. It might have been renamed because [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivace]it's a real word[/url] that does not really fit with the thematic of the city and the character.

The next step was when they reduced the scope from the whole province to just Vvardenfell. Newer changes:

• Stoneforest/Stonewood is now called Balmora, and shifted north (was in Seyda Neen's place)
• Vivace became Vivec
• Aldrun is now Ald'ruhn
• Old Run/Sadrith Forest is now Sadrith Mora and has been shifted to a smaller island
• Several new towns have been added, including Maar Gan which might be a throwback to Markgran somehow as it's about in the same place and there is some similarity in sound. Also Caldera, Pelagiad, Dagon Fel, Molag Maar, Gnaar Mok, Gnisis, Khul, Hla Oad, Ald Redaynia, Ald Velothi, Vos, Tel Mora, Tel Aruhn, etc. Might be simpler to list what's not there yet: Suran, Ebonheart, Tel Branora.

Then it became what we all know.

So arrived Tamriel Rebuilt.

• Glen Haven/Llothanis Heights became Ranyon-Ruhn
• Karththor Heights/Velothis Haven briefly became Gah Ouadaruhn (boo) and then Llothanis (confused yet?)
• Helnim Wall became just Helnim
• Greenheights became Alt Bosara
• Dragon Glade/Draloris became Akamora
• Amber Forest/Illegiblis became Bosmora
• Silnim Vale became Silnim Dale and then just Silnim
• Sotha Sil was deemed not to be anywhere at all
• Riverbridge became Almas Thir
• Karththor Dale/Omaynis became Kartur
• Blacklight became Ban Maluur

There's other changes, including some stuff which I simplify. The [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?image=g/maps/map_mw_factions.jpg&p=modding_data/maps]original concept map for TR[/url] was heavily based on Arena and included dumb things like moving Riverbridge back out of the river. Of course the Bethesda concept map for the whole province was not yet revealed to the public at the time, so Arena was pretty much the only source there was.

[Tes96]

Thanks for that information, Gez. It didn't dawn on me that those town names in Arena were randomly generated as well. I've made a link to this post over at Skyrim:Home of the Nords. I'm not sure if the SHOTN team knows what all of its towns and villages will be named since the project is still very new (compared to TR).

[Gez]

Skyrim is different. There's a recent source for that province.

[Worsas]

The issue with the recent source (TES V I assume) is that it conflicts with SHOTN and the other way around. They have developed concurrently without knowing from each other for years. And it's not quite possible to fully adapt things to what is seen in TES V anymore. Insofar we take us the same freedom to be different from TES V as P:C is different vom TES IV.

In other words: We do not care about that recent source for validation, though we are using quite a bit from TES V by now (I'm not only referring to recreated TES V - models here).

[Why]

Not to mention recreating TESV in TESIII would be a rather idiotic exercise. I'm looking forward to SHotN, not Skyrim with shitty graphics. If I want to play Skyrim, I'll play Skyrim, and I hope SHotN brings a lot of new and exciting ideas to Morrowind.

[Tes96]

Not to mention recreating TESV in TESIII would be a rather idiotic exercise. I'm looking forward to SHotN, not Skyrim with shitty graphics. If I want to play Skyrim, I'll play Skyrim, and I hope SHotN brings a lot of new and exciting ideas to Morrowind.

Don't worry, we (the SHOTN team) will bring to you a real home of the Nords.

[Worsas]

Don't worry, we (the SHOTN team) will bring to you a real home of the Nords.

It will be up to each individual person to decide if he/she wants to consider our version of Skyrim to be more valid than what Bethesda made. There are grave differences, for sure, especially regarding the inclusion of Dwemer and the western holds.

I personally hope for a certain degree of acceptance by the majority of people. It's something I have been struggling with rather extensively, though we're still not going to scrap areas where we have interpreted lore differently only to appease TES V - sticklers.

[Gez]

I was merely stating that if the randomly-generated names from Arena bother you, you can look at TES5 to know which of those names also bothered Bethesda.

So let's take a look at Skyrim in Arena (going roughly clockwise):
City-States:

• Winterholm
• Windhelm
• Riften
• Whiterun
• Falcreath
• Snowhawk
• Solitude
• Dawnstar

Towns:

• Amal
• Vernim Wood
• Sunguard
• Oakwood
• Granitehall
• Karthwasten Hall
• Dragon Bridge
• Stonehills

Villages:

• Helarchen Creek (no creek to be found anywheere nearby)
• Dragon Wood
• Pargran Village
• Reich Corigate
• Greenwall
• Nimalten City
• Riverwood (there's no river at all in the province)
• Black Moor (it on a mountain)
• Neugrad Watch
• North Keep (quite in the south of the province)
• Lainalten
• Amber Guard
• Markarth Side
• Dunstad Grave
• Dunpar Wall
• Laintar Dale

Now, looking at Skyrim in Skyrim:

• Snowhawk has disappeared (only major city to do so).
• Dawnstar has been demoted to small town.
• Falcreath has been renamed Falkreath and pushed a bit to the north-east
• Amal, Dragon Wood, Vernim Wood, Laintar Dale, Pargran Village, Reich Corigate, Sunguard, Greenwall, Nimalten City, Oakwood, Neugrad Watch, Granitehall, Black Moor, Lainalten, Amber Guard, Dunstad Grave, Stonehills, Dunpar Wall, and Helarchen Creek have all been removed
• Karthwasten Hall has been renamed Markarth and promoted to major city
• Markarth Side has been renamed Karthwasten
• Several new settlements have been added, including Morthal, a major city

So basically, they tossed Arena away and just did their own thing, mostly. Heck I'm surprised they've kept Dragon Bridge and Riverwood. Now I'm sure one could map the new settlements (Helgen, Ivarstead, etc.) to some of the old, but still, the province went from 32 settlements to 16. (17 if you count High Hrothgar as one.)
Large cities: 8 before, 5 after
Medium cities: 8 before, 4 after
Small cities: 16 before, 7 after (+ HH if you count it)

[Katze]

Quite a few of those locations are actually still in the game. Snowhawk and Neugrad for example became forts, and stonehills became a small mining community.

[Yeti]

Building off Gez's post to include current name changes in SHotN, just for fun.

Solitude will be called Haafingar by most Nords
Dawnstar might be renamed Dunstiorr
Windhelm might be renamed Kynholm or at least Windholm
Markarth Side might remain as is, or we'll drop the Side part from the name
Karthwasten will stay Karthwasten
Amber Guard has been renamed Karthgad
Granite Hall will be renamed Felsundhal
Snowhawk will be renamed Falkirstad

[Sload]

Windhelm might be renamed Kynholm or at least Windholm

should be Kyneholm no question

[wollibeebee]

Now do Cyrodiil!

[Yeti]

should be Kyneholm no question

Is the "e" in the middle really necessary? To me it look's more visually pleasing without it.But that's just me. The namesake is obvious either way.

[Tes96]

Now do Cyrodiil!

From the [url=http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2067/1i0o.jpg]in-game screenshot[/url], it looks like Cyrodiil has no cities. The [url=http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4255/8vve.jpg]Imperial castle[/url] sure does look different from the one in TESIV, huh?

Thanks for showing us those names of the cities and towns, Yeti.
And Gez, thanks for putting that list together. It would be great if you could do one for Cyrodiil. I don't know, does the Arena map for the Imperial City show more areas as you collect more and more pieces of the Staff?

@Yeti, I think the "e" at Kyn would make the "y" long and not short. Like the difference between "min" and "mine". The "e" at the end makes the vowels in the middle long. So with the "e", it would be pronounced "K-eye-n" whereas without it, it would be pronounced "K-in". I suppose it doesn't really matter. Is Lestat in charge of naming the towns?

[Yeti]

Is Lestat in charge of naming the towns?

Naming towns is usually a group decision.

Also, I'm terrible at pronunciation. 8)

[Haplo]

I saw lots of rivers in Skyrim.

[Worsas]

Yeti, you forgot about Winterhold --> Widdhalde.

Greenwall and Neugrad keep their names but will be turned into Legion Forts.

Some other day I thought about Vorndgad Forest possibly translating to "Frontier Guard Forest" since it was the border towards the two other provinces before the Imperial Simalcrum (in our lore).

[Yeti]

Eh, not really fond of Widdhalde to be honest.

But anyway, what was the topic of this thread again?

[A.J.]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWXjzLEGV9U]Video of Deshaan and Stonefalls in ESO[/url]

Morrowind would just feel so much cooler with proper character animations....

[Yeti]

Ugh, the guy playing gave their Dunmer character white eyes. Friggin' white eyes! Also, it's kind of stupid that class doesn't effect what armor and weapons the players can use. What's the point of having separate classes if they don't mean anything?

Presenter: "Has anybody here ever played an FPS? Do you know what that is?"

Otherwise, I honestly don't see much wrong here. Seems to be a decent merging of MMO and normal Elder Scrolls Gameplay. Kind of surprising how similar it appears to the main series. They're not making Elder Scrolls into an MMO so much as making an MMO into an Elder Scrolls game. Even if they mess up some lore here and there, at least they can't make it as bad as the mess that is World of Warcraft's fiction.

Their Deshann doesn't look anything like our concepts, which is to be expected. Our Deshann will a lot better for sure. With that said, the area on its own look's rather lovely, having a suitably somber atmosphere. The gorgeous stylized graphics certainly help.

[Lady Nerevar]

Also, it's kind of stupid that class doesn't effect what armor and weapons the players can use. What's the point of having separate classes if they don't mean anything?

Same thing as in all of the other TES games, plus determining the skills that go into your little skillbar at the bottom.

[Haplo]

Also, it's kind of stupid that class doesn't effect what armor and weapons the players can use. What's the point of having separate classes

One thing I absolutely hate about most MMOs is that they restrict armor and weapon types from classes. For example, if I'm playing Star Wars: The Old Republic, and I choose a Jedi class... I should be able to wield a blaster cannon if I want. I might suck at it, and it might slow me down 5x more than a trooper, but damnit there's no invisible, magic law that says I can't carry around a blaster cannon. And non-Jedi can't wield lightsabers... why not? If they can get their hands on one, then they should be able to wield it; maybe it damages their health a certain amount because they can't wield it safely, etc.

Another example, (nearly) every FPS ever: snipers have light armor and a pistol as their secondary weapon, or just a knife. Why can't I wear heavy/tanking armor as a sniper? Sure I'll move slower, but let it be my choice. I'd rather wear tank armor and be able to survive a sneak attack or ambush on my nest than be able to run around quickly. Dust 514 actually does a great job of this. You can have a sniper rifle, heavy armor, and a heavy rifle as your secondary weapon. In Dust 514, you decide what your kit is going to be; every bit of it. No two separate slot options are mutually exclusive. Which is why I think it's bullshit that Dust 514 is PlayStation 3 only... even if it is free.

Honestly I think a more perfect class system would be like the original dungeon siege game. ie you don't pick a class. Your most-used skills throughout the game determine what your class is.

[Yeti]

Okay, I totally misunderstood what the guy was talking about and then posted something based off my misunderstanding that was not adequately worded. Anyway, thank's for you informative post proving how wrong I was, and how much I don't know about MMORPGs, Haplo.

[Haplo]

Okay, I totally misunderstood what the guy was talking about and then posted something based off my misunderstanding that was not adequately worded. Anyway, thank's for you informative post proving how wrong I was, and how much I don't know about MMORPGs, Haplo.

The above was just my opinion; I didn't watch the video and I didn't read your post beyond the line I quoted.

[Rotten Deadite]

ES:O's lore isn't going to be bad, on the whole. I don't think. Judging from what I've seen in a 3 hour game play video I torrented, it's not going to be good, either.

I think the game is just going to become a huge long list of missed opportunities. The whole three hours I watched it felt like they almost had a good idea, but couldn't quite pull it off, or didn't bother to drive it home.

A good example is this "prayer" that one of the Dunmer NPCs recites to the player:

"Vivec! How many lifetimes of lament must we travel? I pledge myself on the rubble of broken hearths and houses. The fire in my heart is fierce. Let it consume me. I say the words in your name, Vivec."

Doesn't that feel like somebody read the 36 Lessons over lunch and then ran back to his computer and typed that in? It screams of "I didn't understand a word of it but this kinda feels like the same language...?"

On the other hand, you know, it's Beta. Dialog's changing all the time. A lot of the voice acting didn't match the written text and the actors were changing in the middle of conversations, so this could all be temporary text anyway.