House Dres and Indoril Hortators

[Tes96]

On BSF in the [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1474444-uniformity-mods-for-mw-gameplay-vs-text-2/page-2#entry23042570]Uniformity Mods thread[/url], there is a discussion about how Hlaalu, Redoran and Telvanni are treated as the only great houses in the game as if Dres and Indoril don't exist. Apparently you're named "War leader" of Morrowind if you are Hortator of all three houses? I wouldn't know.

This post maybe superfluous because I assume you guys already have an array of quests lined up that will allow the Player to become Hortator of either House Dres or Indoril. Right?

On another note, will we be adding Dres and Indoril cantons to the city of Vivec? Or is that out of the scope of Tamriel-Rebuilt?

[Nanu]

It has long been TR policy that we don't modify the vanilla game if we can avoid it. Indoril and Dres have very little presence on vanilla Morrowind's continent, as they are headquartered on the mainland.

Doubt we'll make quests to allow the PC to become Hortator of either house, since it's not needed in the original game. I'm sure there's some good lore-based political reasons why this is the case.

I can say with 100% certainty that we will not be adding cantons to Vivec, as that is well out of the scope of what we aim to do.

[Tes96]

It has long been TR policy that we don't modify the vanilla game if we can avoid it. Indoril and Dres have very little presence on vanilla Morrowind's continent, as they are headquartered on the mainland.

Doubt we'll make quests to allow the PC to become Hortator of either house, since it's not needed in the original game. I'm sure there's some good lore-based political reasons why this is the case.

I can say with 100% certainty that we will not be adding cantons to Vivec, as that is well out of the scope of what we aim to do.

Will we even be allowed to join those Houses given we meet certain criteria? One thing I love about Morrowind is that you cannot join certain factions if you don't meet certain requirements, unlike the later games.

Would Dres and Indoril be enemies with all the other Houses and factions? I know House Telvanni is not friends with anybody according to the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:House_Telvanni]UESP[/url] link.

[Yeti]

Most of your questions here could be answered with a moderately thorough search of the forums, Tes96. It has always been the plan, for instance, to make House Dres and House Indoril join-able. Neither faction has holdings on Vvardenfell, however, meaning they do not have much motivation to appoint a Horator. Dagoth Ur isn't an immediate threat to them.

Would Dres and Indoril be enemies with all the other Houses and factions? I know House Telvanni is not friends with anybody according to the UESP link.

As a TR modder, you do have access to the Internal forums, right? There have been a number of recent posts there about conceptualizing the Great Houses, which should give you an idea of their relationships. For your convenience, I'll try to summarize what they think of each other below. Just know that this is all heavily abbreviated.

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House Indoril views itself as the most important Great House, being the closest to fulfilling the Tribunal's grand vision of what Morrowind should be like. They're on bad terms with the irreligious Telvanni and the expansionist Hlaalu, both of which are behaving in a way that isn't compatible with the Indoril's conservative worldview.

Meanwhile, the Dres, probably the most xenophobic of all the Great Houses, are on pretty good terms with all their peers, though they have some theological differences with the Indoril, who focus most on worshiping the Tribunal, while the Dres adhere to ancestor worship and venerating the Good Daedra.

As you said, the Telvanni, the province's ultimate isolationists, aren't particularly close with the other Houses. They are especially at odds with House Inodril, due to that House's strong relationship with the Temple, which the Telvanni couldn't care less about. With that said, the Telvanni are relatively amicable towards the Dres, who supply them with slaves.

The Redoran are pretty tight with House Indoril, and they don't seem to have any problems with the Dres. They've had conflicts with House Hlaalu and House Telvanni on Vvardenfell, and the Hlaalu have slowly been taking over Redoran holdings on the mainland as the northern house has declined.

Due largely to their acceptance of the Empire and driving ambition, the Hlaalu are in a bitter conflict with House Indoril, especially along the Thirr River. They've also been taking advantage of House Redoran's current weakness to strengthen their own holdings. Strangely enough, even though they work closely with the Empire and foreigners, the Hlaalu don't seem to have too many problems with House Dres.

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My apologies for the rush job on this, but it's late at night and I have a paper to write. 8)

[Gnomey]

I think one interesting explanation for why you can't become an Indoril or Dres Hortator could be that there already is one. I forgot whether the practice of appointing a Hortator was supposed to be antiquated or not by the time of Morrowind, but even if it is Dres and Indoril would still be the most likely of the Houses to use an antiquated practice.

That being said, the explanation that Dres and Indoril simply don't perceive a threat large enough to require a Hortator is already perfectly sensible.

[Yeti]

That being said, the explanation that Dres and Indoril simply don't perceive a threat large enough to require a Hortator is already perfectly sensible.

Admittedly, with the Indoril, it requires a little more explanation. The Tribunal are treating Dagoth Ur as a credible threat -or at least they did before Almalexia and Sotha Sil went crazy- so why wouldn't the Indoril be involved in containing the threat, if only indirectly?

[Infragris]

Perhaps Indoril and Dres have something to gain from the status quo? Most Ordinators in Vivec and Ghostgate are said to be Indoril, which would give them a powerful military presence in a place where they have no official representation.

[Melchior Dahrk]

A point to remember is that you don't become Hortator until all houses name you such. It is just glossed over that the only houses you are named hortator by are those with a presence on Vvardenfell. And yet the title of Hortator officially grants the Nerevarine war leader status over all Dunmer.

Granted, Dres might just ignore you. But Indoril... the Tribunal are the ones with the most at stake in the whole debacle.

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

I'd imagine that when the Mainland is complete someone will make a mod that allows you to become Indoril and Dres Hortator, but that is outside the remit of TR proper.

[Melchior Dahrk]

I, for one, never expected TR to do anything with the main quest.

[Swiftoak]

Admin edit: This is not something for this thread

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

And Big Brother is watching you. Always watching...

[Gnomey]

A point to remember is that you don't become Hortator until all houses name you such.

True. I was confused because you get named the "Telvanni Hortator", "Redoran Hortator" and "Hlaalu Hortator", but it seems that each House really only publicly acknowledges you as their candidate for Hortator, more or less. Of course Indoril and Dres could have their own candidates, but if that were the case that would require more, and not less, involvement in the mainquest, to try and establish the player as the Hortator.

The quarantine might go some way to explain why the player only needs unanimous support in Vvardenfell district, but either way it's not terribly important.

[6plus]

According to [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Seven_Visions]The Seven Visions[/url] the Nerevarine doesn't necessarily has to be Hortator; he only has to be named Hortator by three Houses!

The fact that Dres and Indoril have no settlements on Vvardenfell probably means that the prophecy speaks of the remaining three.

[Tes96]

According to [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Seven_Visions]The Seven Visions[/url] the Nerevarine doesn't necessarily has to be Hortator; he only has to be named Hortator by three Houses!

The fact that Dres and Indoril have no settlements on Vvardenfell probably means that the prophecy speaks of the remaining three.

Are you sure it wasn't just out of laziness on the developer's part that they didn't include all five houses in the Fourth Trial stanza?

A question that is off topic, the Second Trial says "Neither blight nor age can harm him." Is that implying that the Nerevarine is supposed to be immune to the Blight as well as immortal?


Also, [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1474444-uniformity-mods-for-mw-gameplay-vs-text-2/?p=23043537]Starwarsgal9875 wrote[/url] that the main branches of House Telvanni and Hlaalu would be on mainland Morrowind. Is that accurate? If so, where will the main branches be?

[Osidian]

Are you sure it wasn't just out of laziness on the developer's part that they didn't include all five houses in the Fourth Trial stanza?

A question that is off topic, the Second Trial says "Neither blight nor age can harm him." Is that implying that the Nerevarine is supposed to be immune to the Blight as well as immortal?


Also, [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1474444-uniformity-mods-for-mw-gameplay-vs-text-2/?p=23043537]Starwarsgal9875 wrote[/url] that the main branches of House Telvanni and Hlaalu would be on mainland Morrowind. Is that accurate? If so, where will the main branches be?

The Nerevarine is immune to every known disease, including the blight.

The Hlaalu Council is in Narsis and the Telvanni one is in Port Telvannis. (Really just go read the internal forums and check those recent discussions about the Houses.)

[Tes96]

Are you sure it wasn't just out of laziness on the developer's part that they didn't include all five houses in the Fourth Trial stanza?

A question that is off topic, the Second Trial says "Neither blight nor age can harm him." Is that implying that the Nerevarine is supposed to be immune to the Blight as well as immortal?


Also, [url=http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1474444-uniformity-mods-for-mw-gameplay-vs-text-2/?p=23043537]Starwarsgal9875 wrote[/url] that the main branches of House Telvanni and Hlaalu would be on mainland Morrowind. Is that accurate? If so, where will the main branches be?

The Nerevarine is immune to every known disease, including the blight.

The Hlaalu Council is in Narsis and the Telvanni one is in Port Telvannis. (Really just go read the internal forums and check those recent discussions about the Houses.)

Is there an official source that says Neravarine is immune to all diseases? Because I play a character that has critical weakness to all diseases, especially the blight.

[Kanil]

The Nerevarine gets inflicted with corpus at some point, which renders him immune to all disease.

However, given that anyone can just walk off the boat, pick Keening up off the ground, wrest away Sunder, and go wail on the Heart of Lorkhan until Azura gives them a hug and everyone acknowledges them as Nerevarine, I wouldn't really worry too much about whether you're playing by the "rules" or not.

[Tes96]

The Nerevarine gets inflicted with corpus at some point, which renders him immune to all disease.

However, given that anyone can just walk off the boat, pick Keening up off the ground, wrest away Sunder, and go wail on the Heart of Lorkhan until Azura gives them a hug and everyone acknowledges them as Nerevarine, I wouldn't really worry too much about whether you're playing by the "rules" or not.

Do you know when/where in the main quest specifically?

[Rats]

[url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Sixth_House_Base]At the end of this quest[/url]

[cabal]

Regarding the Indoril vote, wouldn't you automatically have their vote once the Tribunal throws their support behind you, given how they regard the Tribunal?

[Gnomey]

Pretty much, but you only explicitly get Vivec's support after you are named Hortator. However, as, for whatever reason, the prophecy only requires three houses to name the player Hortator, that isn't really a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if House Dres also named the player Hortator, at latest after the player kills Dagoth Ur. That could be included in TR, or could not. It would probably really only require one letter addressed to the player or line of dialogue each saying: "sure, we recognize you as Hortator. Whatever you like, Nerevarine."

[Gez]

Pretty much, but you only explicitly get Vivec's support after you are named Hortator. However, as, for whatever reason, the prophecy only requires three houses to name the player Hortator, that isn't really a problem.

Three Houses must name you Hortator, four tribes must name you Nerevarine.

That's the requirement. It just happens that on Vvardenfell, there are only four tribes of Ashlanders and four Great Houses, one of which is quite unlikely to name you Hortator against its leader. So in practice, you have to do with the Ahemmusa, Urshilaku, Erabenimsun, Zainab, Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni.

However, the prophecy does not name any. For all it cares, you could somehow become Hortator of the Great Houses Dagoth, Dres, and Indoril, and it would be valid. If (HortatorHouseCount == 3) then SetProphecyFulfilled() EndIf.

[arvisrend]

If (HortatorHouseCount == 3) then SetProphecyFulfilled() EndIf.

I hope you meant >= :)

[Haplo]

If (HortatorHouseCount == 3) then SetProphecyFulfilled() EndIf.

I hope you meant >=

If Gez' line is quoted exactly then it would need to be == rather than >= since it doesn't say "at least three houses", but rather exactly "3 houses" must name you Hortator. So you can see if more than three name you Hortator, the requirement is no longer met. Right?

[Gez]

If (HortatorHouseCount == 3) then SetProphecyFulfilled() EndIf.

I hope you meant >=

If we were to add Dres and Indoril Hortator questlines, we'd probably have to go with >=, but the prophecy is phrased as "three houses", not "at least three houses".

[Gnomey]

So the player might end up being overqualified for the position of Nerevarine? That would be a pretty silly, even if technically legitimate, way to fail the main quest.
Actually, what are we going to do with the mainland branches of Vvardenfell factions? Will you need to get the support of both the mainland and Vvardenfell branches?

Edit: jokes aside, prophecies are often somewhat misleading. If four Houses support the Nerevarine, the requirement of three Houses supporting the Nerevarine would still be met. As to why only three Houses are needed, again, prophecies are often strange. One way to look at it is that the entry requirement to becoming Nerevarine is slightly less strict, allowing the player to more easily become Nerevarine, if you ascribe to the interpretation of the main quest that the player doesn't start out as Nerevarine, but becomes him.

[Haplo]

Actually, what are we going to do with the mainland branches of Vvardenfell factions? Will you need to get the support of both the mainland and Vvardenfell branches?

We haven't figured this out yet. We haven't even really begun the discussion about it in earnest, yet.

As for the other stuff, it's pretty clear to everyone that the prophecy says three houses because Bethesda included three houses in the game. Any explanation we want to use for retconning in Indoril and Dres (or not) is perfectly reasonable.

Whenever we discuss how to integrate the other two Great Houses into the existing framework, and come to a conclusion, we will be sure to announce it. With that being said, I think this thread has run its course; it's starting to get into the realm of never-ending "What-Ifs" that have ended up being misconstrued as official policy in the past. So with that, I'm locking this thread.