TR Professionalization: Let's talk

[Adanorcil]

It’s been over eleven years since Morrowind was released. Some of us have already spent a non-trivial amount of their lives onboard of this project and it’s safe to say that no one really understood what they were in for when this thing started all those years ago. We had the Construction Set, dragged some stuff around, hit Save and we’d made new content to see in the game. It was exciting and fun and we probably figured we’d get there eventually if we just kept doing what we were doing then for long enough.

In all that time, Tamriel Rebuilt has come a very long way and undergone massive changes in vision and objectives. We realized our goals were ridiculous and naive. We learned we couldn’t just include everything some modder made. External tools and mods have given Morrowind an incredible lifespan, meaning that a decade later we can still deliver something that can make players marvel.

However, for all the changes that our mod and the modding scene at large has undergone, the functioning of our project has remained largely unaltered. We have never really systematically looked at the way we do things and asked the crucial question: what can we do better? This is a discussion that needs to happen once in a while and is probably long overdue at this point.

I have prepared a document that I hope may provide a starting point for this discussion. Basically, this is a long list of things that I believe anyone agrees could be improved upon. Some of you have already made suggestions and remarks, which I have tried to incorporate. Many of these are well-known problems and some are being worked on right now, but they are all mentioned here for completeness. I invite all of you to read, give it a think, let it sink in a bit. For many of these issues I can think of some sort of remedy, but I decided to not include these yet so as to not hijack the discussion too much.

I'm sure a lot of you have valuable things to say about all this. However, I'd strongly advise against beginning the discussion in this topic. This is a huge, many-headed monster and I figure a thread or even multiple threads would inevitably become a confusing mess. Instead, I was wondering if we could maybe have a mass-IRC or even Skype meeting. Especially the latter would allow for the exchange of ideas a lot more quickly and clearly. Of course, time zones and all, that may be very difficult. Opinions?

[Swiftoak]

I totally agree. We need to get serious about the elephant in the room and talk about this, as hesitant as some of us might be to change as an institution.

We should set a date for these discussions ASAP, and see how many people are on board.

[Adanorcil]

Since everyone is brimming with enthusiasm, I'm gonna suggest another idea.

A lot of TR discussion, planning and decision making tends to fizzle out after its forum topic loses its initial impetus. How about we agree to have a regular meeting (say, one a month, on IRC or Skype) which as many members as possible try to attend?

This way, discussions that have stalled can be revived and handled in a much swifter way than waiting around for people to post. Additionally, it gives people a good motivation for checking in once a while.

Naturally, this would work on a sort of "agenda" basis. Any major topic or issue that has come up since the last meeting gets moved to the agenda. We then make sure all of those points get touched upon in the next.

[Yeti]

Sounds like a good idea. I'd recommend using Skype instead of IRC, if only because a Skype group saves past conversations for people who aren't initially present. IRC doesn't seem to do this, at least from my limited experience with it.

[Adanorcil]

Depends on your client. mIRC makes logs, for instance.

Voice chat would allow for a lot easier discussion, though, wouldn't it.

[Lady Nerevar]

What Yeti means is that Skype keeps logs even when you're not online. That way, as long as you're in the group, you always see everything said by the group. Skype is also a whole lot better at transmitting files. However, I would use it for chat only - voice has far too many disadvantages for this sort of meeting (no records, confusion in who is speaking, technical issues, confusion on pronunciation, waiting for people to come back from bathroom breaks, etc.). IRC does have the advantage of being a format widely used throughout the project, while Skype may not be.

I don't know if I can participate in a live meeting (I'm not usually online during weekends or evenings, though I suppose I might be able to find some time during the work day), but I definitely have ideas.

[Swiftoak]

Lady N has some good points. The reason I think Ada is trying to push away from IRC is because it's hard to keep track of important discussions. We tried doing an IRC minutes thread but see how well that turned out.

I personally don't care about whether we do voice or chat. I have a weird lisp and can't roll my tounge to say "r" to save my life, so I understand where Lady N might be coming from. That being said, voice also has its' benefits in terms of seeing past screennames, understanding tone, etc. It would leave less room for misunderstandings. Although it would be indeed harder to organize and keep the discussion straight., so if we do a voice chat, we would have to have some sort of moderated discussion/agenda rather than a free-for-all.

Though the same would probably apply to a text-chat given the nature of TR sometimes.

In any case, I'm proposing we have our first meeting after we get this next update + alpha out. I honestly feel that this is long overdue.

[Yeti]

Thank you, Lady N, for clearly stating the main problem I have with IRC. There's no record of important conversations for people who can't be on it all the time.

IRC does have the advantage of being a format widely used throughout the project, while Skype may not be.

This doesn't seem like much of an advantage. Skype is free and easy to use (I managed to figure it out after all ), and holding voice chats would only be an optional advantage for those of us comfortable with speaking over the web.

[arvisrend]

One bad thing about Skype is that I probably won't able to attend Skype meetings (voice or not) from work. I don't know about others, though.

[immortal_pigs]

Some ideas for attracting new members.

1. Why not instate a "Head of Showcases", someone with a good interdisciplinary background. This to make sure that showcases get reviewed and acknowledged quickly. The Head of Showcases could also direct other members to take a look.

2. Why not make the most of TR's tutorials. TR could become a hub for tutorials and this aspect could be advertised more. Drawing traffic towards tutorials might also lead to new members.

3. Why not make video tutorials? These could be really useful for difficult-to-learn areas such as scripting and writing dialogue. (I tried my hand at making a vid.tutorial for pathgridding as an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qDcyc5dEY).

4. Maybe it could be useful to instate a "Head of Public Relations", this could be someone who wants to manage the various social media accounts: tumblr, facebook, the bethesda forums, youtube, et cetera. This could ensure that communication towards the outside is consistent and clear.

5. Perhaps it could be useful to compile a list of active modding communities, projects or talented individual modders. The "Head of PR" could then engage in communications with these parties to see if they might be interested in doing some outsourced work. For example the Less-Generic NPCs project (LGNPC). These guys write NPC dialog for a hobby, why wouldn't they be interested in doing some NPC claims?

6. Why not take a shot at explicitly formulating TR's unique selling propositions (USPs). What does TR have to offer to a novice member? Why would I as a newbie be interested in joining this kind of a project? (What's in it for me aka WII FM)
Example USPs: a chance to engage in creativity, learn multidisciplinary skills, interesting addition to any CV, what else?

7. Would it be an idea to put yourself into the shoes of a novice. What's the first thing I see when I stumble upon the site? How easy is it to join? How easy is it for me to figure out what this project is all about? Why not explicitly think about the step-by-step process a potential member will traverse before making the decision to join? Why not make it easy to join. Make it easy to learn the ropes. Right now if I were to join I will first have to wade through walls of text and wade through thread after thread before discovering the showcase thread. Maybe it's an idea to make some kind of video introduction narrated by someone with a pleasing voice?

8. Attraction new members = more errors. Why not think about new ways through which to implement quality review in the project? Perhaps make it more clear what the tasks are of reviewers? Without an adequate amount of reviewers it could prove to be difficult to handle new members.

9. The next time a release is released, why not come prepared with a well-organised PR machine welcoming new potential members in an effective and efficiënt way?

[arvisrend]

Welcome back, IP!

1. Why not instate a "Head of Showcases", someone with a good interdisciplinary background. This to make sure that showcases get reviewed and acknowledged quickly. The Head of Showcases could also direct other members to take a look.

Someone suggested a [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23633]Welcome Wagon[/url] on the Halfway House. We never found the people to do it. Easy as it seems, it turns out to be a more serious commitment to being available than many people are willing to make, and/or the implied friendliness requirement is too much for people to handle. (I certainly can see myself failing both of these requirements).

2. Why not make the most of TR's tutorials. TR could become a hub for tutorials and this aspect could be advertised more. Drawing traffic towards tutorials might also lead to new members.

Absolutely a good point. This is waiting for the website redesign so far, because right now I even have no clue what format these tutorials should be.

3. Why not make video tutorials? These could be really useful for difficult-to-learn areas such as scripting and writing dialogue. (I tried my hand at making a vid.tutorial for pathgridding as an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qDcyc5dEY).

Scripting will probably be completely useless as a video tutorial; exterioring, on the other hand, can be very nice. Dialogue... that needs someone really good at it who also can teach it well.

4. Maybe it could be useful to instate a "Head of Public Relations", this could be someone who wants to manage the various social media accounts: tumblr, facebook, the bethesda forums, youtube, et cetera. This could ensure that communication towards the outside is consistent and clear.

I'm not sure about the current status of our social media accounts. Is LadyN still active on the tumblr?

A dedicated position for PR can backfire very easily (think consistency between outside communication and project reality, rather than just consistency between outside communication), so there *is* some advantage to our current modus operandi.

5. Perhaps it could be useful to compile a list of active modding communities, projects or talented individual modders. The "Head of PR" could then engage in communications with these parties to see if they might be interested in doing some outsourced work. For example the Less-Generic NPCs project (LGNPC). These guys write NPC dialog for a hobby, why wouldn't they be interested in doing some NPC claims?

I'd certainly favor inviting *some* of the LGNPC people to TR, but given the inconsistent quality of LGNPC, it could also backfire. (Maybe someone should play through LGNPC and check which of the mods are good? I remember the Redoran-related stuff being quite well-done and Pelagiad being crap; not sure about the rest...) Also, we had one of the better of them (cyran0) doing a showcase here and then just disappearing.

That said, I'm pretty sure that whoever in the modding scene we want to communicate with is best communicated with by someone in his department (modelling or questing or NPCs...), lest we appear like we have no idea what we're doing (cf. every corporation with a PR department).

6. Why not take a shot at explicitly formulating TR's unique selling propositions (USPs). What does TR have to offer to a novice member? Why would I as a newbie be interested in joining this kind of a project? (What's in it for me aka WII FM)
Example USPs: a chance to engage in creativity, learn multidisciplinary skills, interesting addition to any CV, what else?

I think this isn't the right logic for a mod project to follow. We are looking for people who already want to mod a role-playing game, and we should tell them why they should be modding TR for Morrowind rather than (say) some adventures for The Witcher. If someone doesn't feel the urge to mod games, he probably won't be really in the right place here, and waving the experience/creativity carrot won't motivate him very much.

Also, the CV thing probably doesn't work these days (yet) unless one is trying to get into the games industry. One reason why I'm using my stupid nick is to not have Morrowind pop up on the first page of the google results for my name. Talk about it when TR is done :)

7. Would it be an idea to put yourself into the shoes of a novice. What's the first thing I see when I stumble upon the site? How easy is it to join? How easy is it for me to figure out what this project is all about? Why not explicitly think about the step-by-step process a potential member will traverse before making the decision to join? Why not make it easy to join. Make it easy to learn the ropes. Right now if I were to join I will first have to wade through walls of text and wade through thread after thread before discovering the showcase thread. Maybe it's an idea to make some kind of video introduction narrated by someone with a pleasing voice?

+1. (Can we get WeirdSexy make a video intro to TR modding?)
I hope this will become more doable with a new website, whoever sets it up.

8. Attraction new members = more errors. Why not think about new ways through which to implement quality review in the project? Perhaps make it more clear what the tasks are of reviewers? Without an adequate amount of reviewers it could prove to be difficult to handle new members.

Fair point, although probably it will take a while until we have that much of a flood in new people.

9. The next time a release is released, why not come prepared with a well-organised PR machine welcoming new potential members in an effective and efficiënt way?

We don't really have the people to power a "well-organised PR machine". Our releases usually come with some sort of announcement post, and the next alpha release will come with a recruitment post as well; but nothing much beyond that.

[Swiftoak]

1. A head of showcases would sort of be a bad idea. We need more people, not more "Heads of". I won't elaborate why this is a bad idea for now, that's a whole issue on its's own. This is of course just my take on it.

2. Absolutely yes. Adanorcil and I have been discussing ideas on what to replace some of our aging tutorials. Frankly we need less technical-CS related tutorials and more interesting ones such as "what tropes make a good quests" or "what makes good lore", etc. How to plan cities, etc. We can easily condense our technical tutorials into a few good ones. In any case, I absolutely agree giving people reason to come to our site is a great idea. This is something I'd like to bring to the Skype meeting.

3. Video tutorials would be nice, but I don't know what would be best. Maybe ones geared towards the more obscure aspects of modding that aren't covered by your run-of-the-mill CS tutorials? I do agree more videos would be nice.

4. Again, while the idea of having someone in charge of PR is appealing, I do not think this in itself warrants a position in the core (at least in the context of our current system of hiearchy.) We already have a [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.tumblr.com]tumblr page[/url], which can be useful as a behind-the-scenes blog, and we already have a bunch of screenshot porn up there. I think the job of PR can fall to a bunch of people in their respective departments. TR isn't so chaotic at the moment that we need a specific position for PR, at least for now.

5. I'm all for outsourcing certain aspects of production to knowledgeable and talented people. I brought up art and assets awhile back, and Rats recently brought up quess. This requires further discussion on how to balance quality control and openness though. I'm not sure picking specific mod developers is the best approach though. There's some controversy regarding LGNPC, and TR's approach to dialogue is different from theirs, so it is something we have to consider too.

6. This is someting I also recently spoke about with Adanorcil. I feel sometimes TR is a little rigid when it comes to proceedure, etc, and I've had to take long hiatuses just to remind myself this isn't a job. It's hard to attract people to make content for an old game, but at the same time, the community for Morrowind is still vibrant. This is something I've been wanting to address for some time. There's still alot of talent, but they just don't work for us. I like the idea of using TR as a learning experience, but also potential CV material.

7. This too. Our website is old and clunky, and is well due a replaceent. I brought this up sometime back with some mixed reactions. This is a very important issue and is a primary topic in our next skype meeting. I think for too many people, we seem far too closed off. More communication with the community would help. A better website too.

8. This isn't a big concern right now. We already run an incredibly tight ship. Not to say we don't have some major flaws (which I'll bring to the table in the Skype meeting), but if you're speaking of quality in a pragmatic (CS) manner, I don't see that as a major issue.

9. I think a "PR campaign" so-to-speak should not be tied to a specific release, or recruitment post (which I think is the wrong way to approach it), it should be more consistent. Keep people in the know. Our long periods of silence give the impression that we're either inactive, or secretive. Let's change that.

I would also like to say, welcome back.

[immortal_pigs]

Comments on the Culture of TR

1) A month ago I got interested in getting involved again. However, I figured I can't just drop back in and offer my opinions as I have no authority or good standing. So I figured I would have to make my points to other people with more respectability and hope they would make them for me, which actually turned out quite well. The important point is that I had the sense I couldn't contribute in the way I wanted to because I have the sense too much emphasis is put on the person talking as opposed to the content of their message.

2) Offering up ideas is too strongly tied to ego and standing. Offering up an idea is actually quite risky as you put your reputation on the line. This is quite silly as it does not foster the right kind of culture for creativity. So what if your idea sucks, theoretically 80% of ideas will suck, but that doesn't matter because it's the other 20% that counts. I have the sense people sometimes are too concerned with maintaining their image. A bad idea isn't all that bad, it gets the ball rolling.

3) The mentality at TR seems to be (in my perception) either you "get it", or you don't. And if you don't get it you get a bad rep and your posts end up being ignored. There have been a lot of modders with talent. Hard workers who wanted to put out a lot of work. The only problem was that they didn't "get it". As opposed to critically evaluating ideas, we end up critically evaluating the person. What ends up happening is they end up getting frustrated because of a lack of appreciation and they leave. But the attitude at TR seems to be "good riddance", which is kind of arrogant and not particularly pragmatic if you're looking for members.

More importantly, this mentality is just not going to be an effective approach to attracting new members. If you think about it, it takes at least one to two months to get indoctrinated (so to speak; indoctrination is not necessarily a negative thing) into TR. The "join" button is a step, the showcase is a step, dealing with strict reviews is a step, figuring out there's a "TR chat" button is a step, figuring out the unspoken rules of the forum is a step, not making a fool of yourself on IRC is a step, getting to know the relevant players at TR is a step, actually being liked by them is an even greater step - only after jumping through each of these hoops does a modder get into HH and are their opinions taken seriously. This is quite a bit of hassle, can't this process be more streamlined?

4) Some unspoken rules really should be explicitly formulated. Also TR could really benefit from being a bit less judgmental. Most modders really do mean well, but you can't fault them for not "getting it" if it's such an elusive thing. The fact they don't get it does not mean they are fundamentally incapable of learning. Why not teach "getting it"? What makes good lore, what is good taste, what fits into TR, these are things that could use some more explicit formulations if you want to make it easy for new members to join, or disillusioned ex-members to regain interest in the project. Sure, part of the magic of lore is it's elusiveness, but it's just not a pragmatic approach if you're working on a project like this.

[gro-Dhal]

It's true that there are quite a few unanswered questions in the public discussion section. That's not a good thing.

[Lady Nerevar]

I can't second point 3 enough.

[arvisrend]

I can't second point 3 enough.

You should third it.

[Haplo]

Sorry I've not responded yet. I've had this thread open for weeks but haven't found the time/thoughts to put anything down in writing. All good things from that post, imm_pigs, though it seems to me one big, related idea rather than four separate ones

I'm concerned you didn't think your voice to be loud enough, so to speak, to be heard by whomsoever it concerned; I think any TR Modder should have the right to ask questions that concern them to the respective department head, or even an administrator, via PM or on IRC or in a forum post. This is even hinted at on the TR Team page, but we could probably do a better job of cultivating a more approachable atmosphere on our website/forums. A website and tutorial revamp would help with this, undoubtedly.

As for ideas, I think this one might be more different per each person than any of the others. For me, it hasn't ever been much of an issue (when I was new I was suggesting things like a forestry guild and streamlining the terminology for coins to one and only one term throughout the entirety of the mod (ie pick Septims, drakes, or gold). I still offer up ideas which don't get used or taken seriously past the first reading or that are obviously stupid after I read what I wrote, but so do others on the core and not in the core (some of the worst ideas I've heard have come from some of the more established (if you will) "idea guys" here over the years. In the past, we've been hesitant to take ideas and run with them from various people, but I think that was due to an already-established position of "bad ideas, few-to-no contributions". I'm not saying this is ideal or that it is the right thing to do, however, and I think it's much less of a problem than it was years ago.

If I might segue just a bit, this coincides with the issue you raise about "getting it" or not, and about people being dicks or whatnot (I even had to get on to a veteran member the other day for this). I don't know of any instances lately where people have left TR feeling unappreciated, regardless of the inferred stance of "TR" (be it good riddance or not), but there is a careful line we must pay attention to; we should strive to welcome all contributing members and provide constructive feedback and attempt to help them become better modders or broaden their skill sets, etc. However, there have been a couple instances where certain modders have declared ultimatums or tried to demand unreasonable outcomes for whichever reason, and in these instances, the stance of the project must be a firm "thanks, but no thanks". I don't think we're in danger of being pushed over by every new member who joins and demands that we start using purple trees everywhere, but a command & control structure does exist, and the leadership of the mod must exercise its control when necessary (for example, in the case of "accept this version of my plugin or I'm leaving" or "give me access to X/Y/Z or I refuse to contribute", even if those modders are many-year veterans). No given modder should have the privilege of such undue influence on any part of the mod, otherwise they might think it's acceptable any time there is a disagreement between them and core. In summation, I think a short mini-tutorial within the "Modding for TR" series (maybe somewhere/at the end of an introduction section to such a series) of tutorials would be appropriate.

I agree with the 2nd half of #3 and the first sentence of #4 (I feel like they run together in purpose), and think that revamping our tutorials before/during a website makeover to streamline the joining process and the modding process (specialized for TR) would help that quite a bit.